Take 101 - Showrunner Mike Scully, The Simpsons

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for sure, dozens of unproduced scripts littering the floor.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

For every success, there is months, sometimes even years, of painful failure. This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default.

SPEAKER_02 0:31

That's the norm. You have to be able to persevere. Like everything in our business, your hands get count and it all bounces off you.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

That process takes years, that doesn't happen overnight. I was being told by my manager it's yours to lose, and I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking, like, well, that's it for me. I blew my one big shot. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

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SPEAKER_02 1:21

Dan, I I think this is where they actually want me to talk about how much I love it. And I do love it, it's great. Its collating function transformed me from the messiest writer in Hollywood to well, ever so slightly less messy. My wife might have other things to say about that. Sitha listeners can get a free month of scriptation by going to scriptation.com backslash Sitha.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

For those of you who don't understand slightly drawly American accents, that's scriptation.com backslash S-I-T-H-A. Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. I am, as ever, your non-entertainment co-host, Dan Rutstein.

SPEAKER_02 2:15

And I am your currently on strike co-host, Noah Evslin. On today's Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, I'm thrilled to introduce six-time Emmy winner Mike Scully. On top of being one of the executive producers and showrunners of The Simpsons, he's also worked on such shows as Everyone Loves Raymond, Parks and Wreck, Dads, and Duncanville, amongst many, many others. He was also once voted by his high school classmates most likely to not live up to his potential. Welcome, Mike.

SPEAKER_03 2:44

Hey, uh hey guys. Pleasure to be here.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

So um I often say there's a meeting in these shows when we have particularly successful people on, and the show's about rejection, failure, and adversity. So it makes it hard for me to ask my opening question. I guess, are you disappointed you don't have seven Emmys?

SPEAKER_03 3:03

I'm furious about it. Um it's it's a funny thing. Like when if you're ever like when you first of all, you always feel you know lucky to be nominated. It's a it's a kick, it's a real thrill. Um and but and you go there just for the the enjoyment of going and the thrill of being a part of the show, but once you get there, you've gone to the trouble of getting the tucks, and it's you know 90 degrees out, and you've been sitting in traffic all that. So by the time you walk in the door, you really want to fucking win. You just and anybody who says different is lying. Um, you know, uh and and I think the first time I went, I think we lost to some um god, it might have been like a rugrats, it was it was it was a Simpsons nomination, and we lost to a Rugrats Passover special or something like that. And I did and I do remember thinking like, oh those little fuckers. It's like I'm starving here.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Because obviously, um it is a lot of Emmys, but we in terms of obviously The Simpsons has been uh running for quite a significant amount of time. Um so when you've lost, I guess the fact that you remembered that one particularly, but are there are there other ones where you feel like this was the year where actually like you maybe won years where you thought you could have been beaten, and then the years you thought you really should have won, you were beaten by some surprising people.

SPEAKER_03 4:46

Um probably that that that rugrats one was surprising, but also it was a great show. It was a show I watched with my kids, so uh it was just kind of like heat of the moment, but it's kind of a mixed bag. You like I said, because of all the trouble you go through by the time you're actually in your seat, you really want to win. Uh, but then if you are lucky enough to win, then you kind of can't believe that either, you know. So it's you know, you never take it for granted. And you know, it's certainly been uh a long time since the last one, but uh no, it we it was it was fun every time. And uh I'm sure there were years where other people probably deserved it more, but you know, that that's what they can come on and tell that story on your podcast.

SPEAKER_02 5:32

So, you know, this is this is uh Dan and I, you know, we'll admit it's probably a trickier podcast for us because of the just the sheer amount of episodes you've worked on and success you've worked on. Because obviously we're here to talk about the fallow moments, the insecurities, but no writer is without insecurities, no writer is without failures. Going back to like the beginning of your career, or even in the middle of your career, was there ever a period of time where you thought maybe it's you know, we never know when we've been retired or put out to pasture? And this could be in the beginning of our career or the end of it. Is there ever time where you were like, well, that's it for me, I'm not working again, or this didn't work out, or maybe I should try something else.

SPEAKER_03 6:10

Uh oh God, like yeah, all of the above. Um, and I think if you ever lose that feeling, uh you're kind of like dead. It's because for I know for a lot of writers, I know it is what drives us. Uh you know, that feeling of the potential failure, or this is it, like you said, or turning in a script and what if they hate it? Um that kind of stuff. Because going back to the beginning, I mean, I didn't go to college, I don't have like the the kind of like typical went to Harvard, you know, wrote for the lampoon and immediately landed a great job on you know, Simpsons or Seinfeld or SNL. I'm I I you know I went to community college for literally a half a day and then just floundered for the next seven years before I finally got up the nerve to move out here and give this a try. So that that guy is never like that's just part of who I am. Uh and it does give you that drive to you know work not only hard, but to try to outwork you know everyone else who's trying to get the same thing you are. So um, so that's always a big part of it. And then, you know, different parts of the career, it always comes up. I uh to me, it's every time you pitch an idea, every time you pitch a joke, uh sitting at a table in a room, before you pitch it, there's that moment of what if this bombs? What if this gets nothing? You never get comfortable enough, you know, to where you're just throwing out everything you know that comes into your head, assuming it's brilliant. Uh for me, it's always about I try to craft the joke in my head before it leaves my mouth so it has the best shot possible of succeeding. But sometimes you're working you know fast and you don't quite have it formed, and you know, it bombs. And there's still a no matter how many times you pitch a joke in a writer's room and it bombs, you never get used to it. It always feels shitty, and you just feel like, what if I died right now? I can't be judged by that joke. If I just keeled over at the table and my family was what were his last words? Like, really, that shitty joke that came out of him in the house.

SPEAKER_02 8:28

I'm gonna let Dan follow up on it with a question, I'm sure, about bad jokes, because that's kind of his strength. But I want to go back to the uh the, you know, you you said in our pre-chat that you've you know you've been through three strikes. So obviously you've been through the industry, uh, you've seen a lot of changes in the industry. But what is your origin stories? What made you, you know, back in the day decide to get on a bus, a car, a plane, go to Hollywood, and start writing for television?

SPEAKER_03 8:56

It really was like kind of after I uh quit community college, there was like the years between 18 and 25. I just kind of like drifted from job to job and had a lot of fun with my friends. We were out every night at at a club seeing bands and and and and partying and stuff like that. And then when I hit 25, I just decided I need to do something with my life. And you know, um, and I just kind of thought of like, what do I love? You know, what are the things, uh, what are my passions uh besides just partying with my friends? And it came down to like watching TV and comedy and music and you know, hockey stuff I so it's like you're able to eliminate a few things, like hockey was not going to be a career, and I just decided to give writing a try. Um, I drove out from Springfield, Massachusetts to LA with a friend and figured the worst case scenario is I fall flat on my face and I can always go back to Massachusetts again and resume because the last job I had before I left, I was uh a driving instructor teaching kids how to drive cars and get their license. So uh, you know, it's not like I gave up a really promising career. Um, and it but I figured I can always go back. Uh, but I had to find out is this a stupid idea, you know, or is there really something here? So that was kind of you know, that's what got me out here to start with. And then once I got here, it was learning how does this business work? I didn't know anybody in the business, I didn't have any friends in the business, I didn't have any relatives, so I really had to kind of learn it all on my own.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

At what point did you realize you could actually do it?

SPEAKER_03 10:48

Oh, um, it was a couple like small victories. Uh one I started, I I sold some jokes to uh Russian comedian Yaakov Smirnov. This is like in the early 80s. Um he was buying jokes, so it was like 25 bucks a joke. I was still working a full-time job during the day, and then at night I was at the comedy store kind of hustling jokes, and uh uh so you know to get paid for writing a joke was kind of that first feeling of oh, all right, maybe there's something here, not enough for me to quit the day job, but can start doing this. And then I got hired um to write it was a comedy team uh called Mac and Jamie, and they had a show like a five-night-a-week show called Comedy Break. And they needed somebody, I didn't get like credited, you know, for working on the show. I don't think Mac and Jamie even knew I was writing stuff for the show. I was literally hired by a producer on the show. I wrote my sketches at home, had to put them in a sealed envelope and slide them under the door at their office and leave. I never I didn't go into the office or anything. Um, but they would pay me, you know, a few hundred bucks a week. So that was, you know, I was kind of moving forward a little bit. And uh, but you know, landing the first job on the staff of a show, then I felt like television could really be, you know, a career for me. I felt like I had kind of made it, even though there was every day that fear you're gonna be fired. Um you know, at least I was in the writer's room finally.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

So so once you made it into a room, which is obviously a a big step, um when it was sort of your turn to speak, how did you when you were starting, were you bravely pitching? Were you sort of quietly listening? How did you sort of conduct yourself in that first room?

SPEAKER_03 12:52

Um yeah, no, I was terrified, terrified, because the writers that were in there were like very experienced veteran writers uh off of shows, um, like Bosom Buddies and uh Welcome Back Cotter. You know, they were, you know, they were real pros, and I did not know what I was doing. So I was quiet for way too long in the room. Um, you can observe and listen so much, but eventually you have to start contributing. And I was very slow to get going um because I was so intimidated by the surroundings. Everyone was perfectly nice. It was it was all my own, you know, uh personal inside my head battle going on. Um, and then when I finally did pitch a joke in that room, the show was called What a Country, uh starring Jakov Smirnov. Um, and when I finally got the nerve to pitch, it had been several uh quite a few weeks before I had spoken up, and one of the executive producers like looked at me like, What is your is your option coming up next week? Is like is I I didn't know what your voice sounded like, you know. Um uh so you know, some deserved needling at how long it took me to get going, but uh you know, I survived it and then uh you know went on to some other shows, so and that went on for about seven years, kind of drifting show to show until uh Samson's in '93. But I learned a lot on these other shows, even though the shows were varying degrees of successful, you learn a lot no matter what. You learn a lot, you learn. I think you do learn way more from your failures, failures, uh, than the successes.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

So obviously I we've had people on the show before talk about comedy rooms, um in terms of the difference between sort of pitching jokes that might fall flat and maybe pitching sort of serious dramatic storylines that aren't accepted by your colleagues. But when you were fr from that seven years of of working to actually when you had your own room, in terms of sort of is it a load of people sort of sitting around chouting jokes out and they some some work and they don't, people are mean to each other when the jokes don't land, or was it sort of were you pretty good at uh you know good natured, but you know, was it sort of quite cutthroat around the stuff and um or or was it and particularly what did you learn from how other people did it for when it was your turn?

SPEAKER_03 15:28

Yeah, it it really varies like room to room. Um kind of like a showrunner can kind of set the tone of the room, um, or you know, a couple people in the room can kind of dictate the tone. But uh yeah, I it was funny as as I was as you were asking the question, I thought back to I remember on my on that first job where I hadn't said anything uh in a long time. I do remember now one night, one of the uh veteran writers there was like joke pitches going back and forth, and nothing was getting in. And he finally this guy turned to me, he goes, What are you, a you UN observer? Uh you know, which now I can, you know, I could laugh about, but in the moment it was very humiliating, and then it makes you just get in your head even more. Um I think maybe rooms were tougher in and I started, or when I started like in the 80s and 90s, or it may have just seemed tougher because I was so inexperienced and more intimidated. Um, but yeah, shows have their own reputation. The Simpsons, I mean, I was intimidated more by the you know, the quality of the show and the type the the writers that were in the room than by the people themselves. The people were perfectly lovely and respectful and encouraging. Uh, so it wasn't that fear of, oh, they're gonna like shit on me if I pitch something lousy. Um, it was just, you know, I just felt like the bar is so high in this room that I got in my own head about what is a joke that's good enough to even be pitched in this room. So uh yeah, but it varies, and there's different personalities that go into making up a writer's room, but you want people like you know, at least if I'm running a show, you want people that are going to be encouraging to each other, respectful to each other, because I think that's how you get the most out of writers because there's so many different personalities and life experiences that go into making up a room. And you know, a lot of times it's the quieter writers have a tendency to sit the furthest away from the showrunner, which is kind of the opposite of what you should do. If you know you're kind of quiet, uh and you're not gonna shout your jokes out, try to get a seat closer to the showrunner if you can. Um, because when you have to shout your jokes, if you bomb, you bomb big, you know.

SPEAKER_02 17:53

So so I I want to stay with The Simpsons for a second. And obviously, you talked about The Simpsons probably in a lot of podcasts and a lot of shows.

SPEAKER_03 18:01

So, yeah, um, getting to run the Simpsons, yeah. I had been there four years, so it was like 97, and thrilled to get the offer to run the show, and but also terrified at you know, trying to live up to everything that had been done prior to it. You don't want to be the guy that that sinks this very successful show that's making Rupert Mardock billions of dollars because that's how Rupert likes his money by the billions. Um, so it you know, it it was a very, I remember like the first day in the room, like suddenly you're sitting in the the kind of the showrunner seat, and instead of being one of the people around the table, now everyone's looking at you for you know, uh guidance and direction, and uh, and you're looking at it's literally around the table is like 20 Harvard graduates and me, the village idiot, you know, from community college. Uh, so that all was very intimidating. On the other hand, I had worked with these people for four years, um, you know, felt comfortable in my knowledge of the show, and the res and you know, I respected all these writers so much that I tried to make it as much of a democracy as a writer's room can be. Uh, but you still have to be the final word on everything. But I always had a kind of a general rule that if everyone is laughing at a joke pitch and I'm the only one who isn't, the joke still goes in. Uh, because first of all, I'm an idiot, they're a lot smarter than me. So I'm gonna defer to the you know, the 19 smart people in the room instead of myself. Um, so yeah, it was terrifying to take it over. And uh, but I think it, you know, it's a healthy terror and and you know makes you really try to be on top of your game every day if you can.

SPEAKER_02 19:54

I you know, I've only heard this from the outside, but you you know confirmed it a little bit about you know, Simpsons had a lot of people who went to Harvard and then you know the lampoon, and then they kind of got funneled into writing jobs, including the Simpsons. But uh, so 19 Harvard grads, I'm so I'm sure you're joking slightly, but and you, but did you not not really? When you became the showrunner, was there more looking at like community college? Like, were you suddenly saying, Hey, look, like I came from the outside, I'm bringing something. Obviously, they're all looking towards me to now be the showrunner. And when you began to staff your room, do you obviously keep a lot of the institutional knowledge, but then begin to fill some holes? What how how are you staffing your show?

SPEAKER_03 20:38

Um, yeah, there's always a like a little bit of turnover each season. Uh, I mean, that's how I got in. There had been a little turnover on the show. So you're trying to fill slots, and probably the most deliberate thing I did was to try to get more voices, like different backgrounds of people, because I feel like that's where so many stories come from, particularly when you're doing a uh a show centered on a family. Uh, so you wanted people who had had different life experiences growing up, you know, different types of, you know, uh parents and and school experiences. I, you know, I just feel like it leads to more, you know, interesting and varied uh story pitches and and joke styles. Um, so you know, I've just tried to mix it up a little bit more, but there was already so many great people in. I didn't, I don't recall making many changes.

SPEAKER_02 21:30

So, so one last instance question that I'm sure we can move on, or Dan can choose to stay here. But you know, long tenured run, lots of Emmys, lots of successes. But for the purposes of this podcast, do you have like one darkest day? What's your worst memory from the Simpsons?

SPEAKER_03 21:50

Uh oh man, uh there's plenty. Uh there were every season, you know, it's always funny when people like uh rate uh Simpson seasons. Uh they'll pick out like these are my favorite seasons, these are the worst seasons. And I've never quite understood that because we don't do like story arcs, we don't do season-long arcs where we're committing to one storyline where you can say, I just didn't like that season because of this, you know. Um, so anytime an episode comes out poorly uh on your watch, it's a horrible, horrible day. Uh it's you just you just run out of time, you run out of money, and you wonder like where you went wrong. And then um so those are always awful. And any given season, particularly if you're doing like 22 uh episodes, you know, you you'll you might have like in a season maybe four that come out great, and then like a bunch that come out good or pretty good, and then you have, you know, if you're gonna be honest with yourself, you probably have four that come out kind of shitty or disappointing. Um, and it's not that you didn't work as hard on those episodes, sometimes you worked even harder, uh, but the story just didn't come together for whatever reason. And you know, you know, you're trying to fix it at the last minute, slapping in last minute jokes and just ban you, you're just putting joke band-aids all over a story that doesn't make sense or that sort of thing. So those are always dark days, and then we and then with the Simpsons, because of uh DVDs and you're doing those DVD commentaries, like 10 years later, you after the fact, you get to relive that dark night all over again. You get to relive your bad decisions a second time.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

It's just so um, I'm actually gonna stay on the Simpsons, but obviously the failure part. So um was there um it was an interesting point you made before about obviously when you're in charge and if everyone's laughing and you're not that you know the joke stays in. But was there ever an occasion where there was something you specifically really felt very strongly about, either out or in? And you sort of put your foot down and said, you know, I'm maybe didn't quite say the words, but you know, I'm the showrunner and this is gonna stay in. And it ended up going the wrong way for you. Is there like a specific moment where you got the judgment call wrong?

SPEAKER_03 24:22

Um it oh, uh yeah, I'm sure I did uh in certain episodes, particularly uh usually somewhere around act three, where you're trying to figure out I've always said even in the Worst Simpsons episode, you'll find like you'll get 10 or 12 good laughs, uh, even if the story doesn't work at all, because we have a structure that allows in the first act for us to do like an opening set piece and and and where you're not quite sure where the story's going. Um, and that you get to do a lot of free jokes, but eventually you have to commit to a story. Uh, and that's where you can sometimes get in trouble. But yeah, there's uh episodes. I don't want to like single out specific episodes in case the writer of the episode hears it and takes it personal, or all the animators that work just as hard on that as they do on every episode, because it's on me. But uh, any any show, if there's a show in my seasons that audience didn't like, it's on me. Uh I approved, you know, I approved it. Uh I sometimes I can't remember, I don't recall ever like a time where the whole staff is saying you should do this, and me doing you know, I'm the show runner, we're going this way. I I really did believe if the whole staff felt that strongly about something, then there's something to it, and I'd be an idiot not to listen to them. Um maybe in other shows that um, you know, I uh that I've brought my wife and I have written pilots, we've had shows on the air, we've we've had pilots film, pilots not filmed, pitches that have gone horribly. Um yeah, if you want to hear a failure story, I got one for you. Uh my uh wife Julie and I pitched a show, um, which we eventually sold to Fox, but we were pitching at ABC, I believe. And when you go in with a comedy pitch, you have a lot of jokes built into your pitch and places where you're kind of like anticipating laughter coming. Uh, and we're pitching this thing and we're just dying. I mean, not one laugh throughout the entire pitch, and we're not just pitching to one person, there's like three or four people there, so and we're just bombing with the entire room, and we finished the pitch, and normally, like, they'll kind of jump right in right away with some questions or like a quick reaction or something. We finished the pitch, and there was just dead silence. Nobody talked for about 10 seconds that felt like you know, 12 minutes of just dead silence to the point of where I finally went, ta-da. And then they all kind of snapped out of the you know, the stupor they were in, uh, from what we had pitched, and like, oh no, no, we we liked it, we liked it. And they tried to come up with a couple perfunctory polite questions, like uh, is it a single cam, multi-cam? How do you see it? They were just being nice, but we just bombed. And when you like pitching comedy, I don't know how it is pitching dramas, uh uh, but you know, when you're when you kind of leaving spots in your pitch for laughs, so make sure we don't step on this joke and that kind of stuff, and none of it is working. That's just a horrible, horrible feeling.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

Now, I know that I think I got one more now. Simpsons question, but again, obviously on our theme. So um obviously uh Simpson's uh set a standard ran run for a very long time, but obviously there's been uh other long-running uh animated uh shows of a similar pilk. When you watch, assuming you've ever watched episodes of Family Guy, or maybe even sort of more recently, like a Bob's Burg or something, are there times where they've done something and you're like, I wish we had done that episode, or I had thought of that and we didn't make it. Do you sort of get sort of animated family joke envy?

SPEAKER_03 28:37

Oh, absolutely, absolutely, whether it's like a great story or um uh or even just a joke you wish you'd thought of, like that sort of thing. I mean, you can I try to separate enough to where I can enjoy the joke, but there's always that little part of like, damn, you know, just convincing yourself you might have thought of it someday when the reality is you never would have. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:00

Can we talk can we talk a little bit, speaking now of other shows and and your, you know, the list of shows you've been on? You've bounced from animated shows to live action comedy your entire career. You've you've sort of seamlessly done both uh in a way that most writers can't. And and you are you are well aware that in our industry, our guilds, the two, the animation guild and the WDA, they don't always have the same members. There's debate over who gets in what thing. You know, can you talk a little bit about how you accomplished going from you know, having a live action career, getting that going? A lot of my animation friends feel like they get siloed, and once they write animation, they can never get out of that bucket.

SPEAKER_03 29:41

Yeah, and that's actually what happened to me, even though from 86 to 93, I worked in nothing but live action multicams. Uh, but once I got on The Simpsons, um I had been there for uh a length of time. And then uh I was I oh, I my wife and I had done a show called The Pits for Fox that was canceled very quickly. We shot seven and it was canceled, I believe, after four aired. Um, and my plan at the time was to try to go back to the Simpsons uh to come crawling back and beg for my job. Um, and that was my plan. Um so Phil Rosenthal, the creator of Everybody Loves Raymond, called and told me he had an opening on his staff and was wondering if I would be interested. And my initial answer was I was very flattered, uh, but I was thinking of going you know back to the Simpsons, uh, even though I was a big fan of the Raymond show. And um, and he said, Well, I said, Can I think about it? And he said, Well, if you want it, you have to really want it. He goes, I have to be a hundred percent sure. Because to be honest, I already ran your name by the network and they rejected it. And they said, and they said, Really, why? Because I was trying to think, did I offend somebody over there at CBS without knowing it? And uh, well, he goes, he goes, To be honest, they called you cartoon boy. Uh, and I had never heard before the idea that writers could be typecast and do like a type of show or you know, a genre. And when I heard that, I said, you know what? I said, if you can fight for me and get me on the staff, I'll take the job. Because right then I said, I just I can't go back to where I'm comfortable and just do that the rest of my career. I have to get out there and get back to live action. And I was determined not to be typecast again that way, which is why I've also like Parks and Rec, I had never done single cam before. Uh, so I wanted to learn how to do that. Uh, you know, I've done variety, I've like written for the Golden Globe. So I've tried to like find as many different ways to extend my career by knowing how to do a lot of different things instead of just one thing, which which is can be very tempting to do sometimes. Just stay in your comfort zone.

SPEAKER_02 32:09

Well that's by the way, fantastic answer. Uh, thank you for that. I you there is one thing that I picked up on there that I I want to ask some a further question about is you're on The Simpsons. At that point, I think you've gotten five Emmys, you've yet to get your six on Everyone Loves Raymond. You create the pits with your wife, it lasts a handful of episodes. What is the feeling like after you've successfully run one of the biggest hit shows on television? Then you create a show with all of that knowledge about how to create a good television show and they don't even give it a full season run. Like, what is it, what what what goes on inside? Are they wrong? Did it miss the mark? Did you miss the mark? Was there something happened along the way? What what's that process like?

SPEAKER_03 32:48

Yeah, that that show in particular was very um aggravating um for several reasons. First of all, they had like come to us and asked for a show that was basically a live action cartoon. They they they said we want to combine the best of like both like live action, you know, comedy, but with a cartoon sensibility. And we uh Julie and I came up with this show um kind of based on this family that just has you know nothing but bad luck, and every week was um like you we would do like a typical family sitcom story, like they get their teenage daughter her first car, and then the the twist on it would be the car is haunted, like a la Christine or something, and kidnaps their daughter and drives her to Las Vegas to get married at a drive-thru wedding chapel. And those were the kinds of stories we were doing, and we wound up with this great cast uh with Dylan Baker and and Lizzie Kaplan, like really like top-notch uh people, and you know, they said give us a wild and crazy show. And then when we turned in the first episode, they're like, I don't know, this thing is really wild and crazy. Like, that's what you asked for. Um, so it yeah, it got like very, you know, the whole thing just got very aggravating, and um, you know, you do feel like you failed somehow, you've let them down at the same time, and you know, a lot of money's been spent. You feel like you're letting the cast down, the the crew, the the writing staff. It's just a horrible feeling. Like when a show gets canceled, we did a show for ABC in 2005 called Complete Savages, and you know, you have to go down and announce to the the cast like that they're not gonna pick up, like I think we did 19 episodes of that one, and like they're not gonna do the last three shows, and the show had kids in it, and the kids were just having fun on the show, they're not thinking of it as a business yet. And one of the kids went, Well, can't we do the last three just for free? And it just made you cry. Oh, they just didn't want the fun to end, so yeah, it's a it's a horrible feeling when something gets canceled. Uh, you put your heart and soul into everything. Uh, you're never you know thrilled. You you make jokes about uh why won't they cancel this thing? Put us out of our misery, that sort of stuff, but what you don't really want it to happen. That's just you know, uh mech, you know, defense mechanism for late nights in the room.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

Were there given sort of the way you started, where you sort of you didn't know you could be a writer? And I I I asked earlier, like when did you realize that you were actually a writer? Given everything that you've achieved, at what point did you sort of feel comfortable looking back and thinking, you know, uh this was the right decision, and I've achieved everything that I've wanted? Or are you not there yet?

SPEAKER_03 36:03

Uh no, I'm actually not there yet, to be very honest. I feel like you know, I've I've spent so much time in TV. Movies was always you know on the back burner, and you know, you sometimes you get a movie idea, but the time commitment, you know, to really write a good, you know, draft, you know, come up with a pitch, go out, pitch it, write it, or write the whole thing on spec, it would require maybe taking a season off from TV. And I would always get kind of you know pulled back in again, thank God. But so yeah, that that's a regret, but it's something that uh is still out there for me. There's uh an idea I have you know have right now for uh a movie. My wife and I have been kicking around a couple things, but at the same time, we're pitching pot, you know, we're we'll be right before the strike. We were in pilot mode, uh, you know, on something, and but we won't know till we get back, is it still alive or not? So yeah, no, I that drive stay stays there, and um, you know, yeah, I can't get rid of it. It's funny that you on the film, I just right um I just had a show canceled recently, and it was just as awful as the first time a show was canceled. Uh, and it was canceled for reasons beyond our control. We had three studios involved financially in the show, and it be you know became an issue for the network-owned studio to only own a third of the show, and suddenly they're asking, you know, us like, well, where's our path to profitability? They're like, I don't know, man. You made this deal, you agreed to it. Um, and but and they had no creative issues with the show, it became a business deal, which was even you know, just it felt like so out of our control, like there's nothing we can do about this. Um, but it's it's all that same feeling. You have to go out, tell everybody the show's been canceled, and uh, but now the bar for failure is so different in the business than it was 10-15 years ago. Like we did 39 episodes, which you know, at one time would have been, oh man, that sucks. Only 39. Now, if you can keep a show on 39 episodes, people are like, Whoa, that's a great run, you know, 39. You know, how did you keep coming up with the ideas? Like, I don't get like why people are so gracious when their shows are canceled early on. I see on Twitter, you know, like, you know, uh, you know, we've been canceled, you know, after our second season and and 18 episodes, and we just want to thank everyone at Netflix for you giving us the chance to tell the stories we wanted to tell, and blah blah blah. I was like, be pissed. You know, what's what's wrong with going this blows? Uh uh, you know, they said they were gonna do this and they did that. This this is TV. It's a it's a business, some days it's a shitty business. Today's one of those days. I hate everybody at the network today. I'll be back next week to pitch them something new, but at least be honest. I'm not gonna thank somebody for canceling my show.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

So you mentioned your sort of your movie aspirations. Um given your body of work in television, uh now if if somebody rejects your movie idea or or you know, in some way it doesn't work out, and somebody rejects your TV one, is the is it easier to accept a movie failure because you haven't done them yet with while with TV? It's like, well, I did all this stuff, how dare you?

SPEAKER_03 39:34

Uh oh yeah, totally. I it would be much easier to rationalize failure in a movie pitch, you know, because I can like you said, I could just go, well, I'm not really a movie guy, I'm cartoon boy. Um, so yeah, that would be, you know, it would be disappointing, but it wouldn't be quite the sense of failure. I I don't think. Yeah, um, but I don't know, I'll have to let you know.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

Or not.

SPEAKER_03 40:02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:04

Um so um do you have any regrets career-wise in terms of um a show you could have worked on, or um, you know, book rights that came your way, or anything that you just didn't do because either, you know, The Simpsons was just too good to sort of get off the train, or you pick something over it. Is there is there any sort of project out there that whether it's for you know it's like writing your soul or it was something that was special, is there anything out there that you just you wish you'd done more with?

SPEAKER_03 40:46

Oh wow, that's a that's a great question. Um there's a couple uh what I I don't want to say what the show is because sometimes people like the show did go on to great success, uh, but I don't think the person knows that I had talked about it with uh, you know, so I don't um you can tell us that story without naming the show. Well, I had yeah, I had only been at The Simpsons for a few years, and it I was offered another uh to develop another show, and there was already a pilot script written, and it actually it was in pretty good shape, in my opinion, but they felt it needed like a more experienced hand to come in and and guide it and run it on a day-to-day basis. And I, you know, I was having so much fun at the Simpsons at the time, I didn't really give it a big thought. Like, I just thought I'd be crazy to leave this because I had been on you know such terrible shows prior to the Simpsons. I was like, I'd be insane to leave here for something that you know who knows what's gonna happen. And then that show wound up having an amazing run. And uh the person who did it um did very well uh uh financially on it. Let's just say that. And uh, I'm not saying that that that haunts me, and I'm not up at three in the morning pacing the floor, thinking back 25 years, but um yeah, there's little like moments like that or with where opportunities came along, but you don't know, but you don't you don't know it's always like in hindsight you can kind of beat yourself up over things, but in the moment, so many shows come and go, you know, like anytime any show is pitched, you know, most shows fail, like 90% of shows fail. So that's kind of how you think about every project. Yeah, it's probably gonna fail because you know, there's an old, I think it was Ed Weinberger who worked a lot with Jim Brooks on like Mary Tyler Moore show and taxi and those shows. And his I never met him, but I always heard like his advice to writers was just do the show you want to do because they're gonna cancel you anyway. Uh, so that's kind of where your your head is at when something might be you know presented to you that that could be an opportunity. Like, why would you leave the sure thing uh to go take a chance on this thing that's probably gonna get canceled anyway? But yeah, there's probably a few of those things where I've I've kicked myself.

SPEAKER_01 43:22

Did uh did the other show that we're not mentioning win seven or more Emmys?

SPEAKER_03 43:27

Uh uh, I don't think so, but it was a great show. It was a terrific show.

SPEAKER_02 43:33

So my my my my son always likes to say, you know, the cliche statement there's always a bigger fish. Uh, the many times where we've seen that in movies and TV shows, all bigger fish. That's a great story of you coming from maybe the biggest prime time television show of all time, and and and and still in your head thinking, well, what if I went on that other even bigger show or more successful show? And I think, you know, I think I speak for Dan when I say that. We would talk to you all day if we could. I think we, you know, these stories have been great. Uh, you really, you know, understood the theme of our podcast and what we're trying to do. So we really appreciate you coming on. But unfortunately.

SPEAKER_03 44:11

Oh, and I will I will add one thing. And that doesn't mean had I gone and done that show, that it would have been the success it was. I might have gotten fired the I might have just messed it up and gotten fired the first season. So I might not have made it past the pilot stage. So that's also the other part of this. Like uh you could you think, oh, if I took that job, I would have made it the success that this other writer did. And there's a good chance that wouldn't have happened.

SPEAKER_02 44:37

There's so much chemistry involved, right person, right task, right time. Uh yes, yeah. But um, um, so this you know, this is the question that we ask every single person that comes onto our show. Uh, and you have so much institutional knowledge that I think you'll have a great answer to it, which is what is one piece of advice that you would give to somebody uh just joining this industry in your case, in this case, as a TV writer?

SPEAKER_03 45:03

I would say if you're trying to break in as a writer, first of all, if you can land a you know a job on a show, um you know, even if as a as a PA or uh a writer's assistant, some serves even have a specific writer's PA where you're working a little bit more uh closely with the writers, anything that gets you close to the writer's room, uh, but even if you're not in there a lot, do the best job at what at the job you're hired to do before you start talking to the writers about your writing aspirations. Uh, let them really start to like you as a person and see you as a hard worker, get to know your personality, and then eventually, and and when I say eventually, I mean, you know, maybe six months, maybe you know, you wait to kind of let them know. Because eventually writers just in conversation will kind of, if they like you, will ask, so what you know, what's your eventual goal? Because you know that's they weren't, they didn't come out there to to get you lunch. Uh so in conversation, it can be brought up. And if it gets if it's the answer to a question asked by a writer, then you don't have to be in that awkward position of telling them what you're trying to do. And a lot of writers will offer to read your material. Um, I think writers are very helpful in that way. I think there's kind of a you know parental aspect, you know, sometimes to you know writers have experienced writers with young writers that you do want to help because you remember what it's like to be in that position. But be awesome at the job you're hired to do. And I always say this specifically to PAs this is just my own personal thing. Put the cokes in the refrigerator the night before you go home. Don't put them in in the morning because they won't be cold until five in the afternoon. So so when I'm looking for a Coke at lunchtime, um it's like stupid little shit like that. Like, have the foresight to put it in the night before. So every uh the the coke is cold the next day.

SPEAKER_02 47:12

I don't know. I don't know if it's unrelated, but that made me think one of the PAs that we hired once or the show hired I was working on many years ago. Very first thing this person did was organize all the candy completely, made it perfect, organized all the candy, spent all day doing it. And that person has now the best career of any of the other people that were coming up. Don't don't don't know if it's connected, but the coke in the night before it was uh the yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:38

No, everyone loves to see somebody who takes their job very seriously, works really hard at it, it makes you want to get to know them more. Um, and then if you find out they're trying to do what you're doing, it makes you want to help them. Yes, very good. It all comes down to cold coke, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:57

So uh Mike Scully, um it's been fascinating to have uh Cartoon Boy on our podcast talking about all of their failures and a little bit of successes as well. Thank you for for taking time out. Um really appreciate you having on having you on the show. Thank you very much indeed. Oh, thanks so much. Pleasure to be here. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this episode of Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss brought to you by Scriptation. Thank you as ever to James Launch for the music, and thank you to our loyal listeners. And if there's any showrunners out there who want to hear their fellow showrunners abused uh and ruffled around and put under the microscope so you can hear their stories of rejection, failure, and adversity, please send them our way. If you are interested in following us on social media, no, I've lost track.

SPEAKER_02 48:54

I am at NEBslin on Twitter or X or whatever Elon Musk now calls it. And thanks to Elon Musk, I'm also at Noah Ebslin on Hive, Spotable, Blue Sky, Threads, Mastodon, MySpace, French Stir, and I'm sure a thousand more.