Take 73 - Showrunner Josh Silberman, Deadliest Catch, Fear Factor

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for shore, dozens of unproduced scripts literature.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

For every success, there is sometimes even failure. This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is like everything in our business here.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

I was being told by my manager, and I probably lost it. And I remember thinking like, well, that's it for me. I do my one-bit god. What I've realized with that moment is it's never one bit shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. I am your non-entertainment co-host, Dan Rutstein.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

And I am your industry co-host, Noah Ebbslin. Today I'm excited to have on non-scripted TV producer and showrunner Josh Silverman. Josh has worked on such shows as Deal or No Deal, America's Got Talent, Dancing with the Stars, Deadliest Catch, Ice Road Truckers, and many more. More recently, he was the executive producer of Fear Factor and the executive producer and showrunner of Double Dare and Foodastic. Welcome, Josh.

SPEAKER_03 1:36

Hello. I sound so fancy when you introduce me like this.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

We tend to do rejection and failure more than adversity. But I feel like because of the nature of the shows that you're working on, although I'm sure there's lots of rejection stories about pictures and so on, what I'm interested in is the adversity side, because obviously if things are non-scripted, the chances of things going wrong feel probably higher than in scripted shows. So should we start with adversity in terms of actually in terms of production, some of the more ridiculous things that have gone wrong for you, and then we can start off from there.

SPEAKER_03 2:18

Yeah, I mean when it comes to adversity, I really feel like I take the cake on that one. Uh there's been lots of like miserable, miserable things in my career, uh, which have been really great when you think about it. Like uh on Deadliest Catch, um, I was one of the shooter producers on the boats. So I was throwing up 15 times a day. Uh and I remember Captain Phil was like, Don't worry, you'll get your sea legs eventually. And I didn't, you know, and I'm throwing up 15 times a day, and I lost 16 pounds, and these crab fishermen are working like 25 hours straight, and you gotta be up and you have to be shooting, and then you need to take story notes, and then you need a track story, and then you need to throw up, and then you need to do it again. Um, and it's tough, and it's it's great too, because you are on that boat, you and you have a partner, and like you're in charge of making that story happen. And so, unlike a scripted show or a scripted movie, you know, where you know what you're getting when you get in there, you have no idea, and you can't take a day off to you know get over seasickness. You just have to barf through it.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

See, presumably, uh obviously lots of very exciting things happen, even if you don't know they're gonna happen. But I can imagine that also there's lots of times where nothing happens at all. Um, and then presumably you start worrying about uh story and the cost of getting story.

SPEAKER_03 3:58

Yeah, that's that's uh it's interesting because the second season I was on Deadliest Catchos and the Coast Guard, and I knew that I would get Story when the Coast Guard is dispatched, but the problem is the Coast Guard isn't dispatched because things are going well, the Coast Guard's dispatched because the boat is sinking, somebody is hurt, and so it's such mixed emotions because I think any producer wants to be shooting an episode through your lens, but it comes with a cost, and so that was what was really tough in the second season I worked on that show being in the Coast Guard because I wanted to bring home the bacon, but I didn't want to come at the expense of somebody. So it's like it really plays in your emotions because when there's a call, you're like, oh no, someone's in trouble, but then you're also there's a small part of you that's like, all right, I'm gonna nail this thing.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

Yeah, I mean I I remember I was a uh in my first career when I was a journalist, I did a 24 hours in the life of some firemen, and um we had zero call outs, and I was really disappointed because I didn't have a story, and I was reminded by them at the end of it, which means nobody nearly died in the last 24 hours and nobody lost significant property, so don't be too upset about it. And I went away feeling very sheepish and like some kind of hawkish journalist. Um anyway, Noah, I know uh you're gonna have some industry questions here.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Yeah, so so by the way, thank you for coming on. You're our first non-scripted producer to come on. And you know, we have we've had a lot of showrunner types come on on the scripted side, and they talk about the adversity, and it's real adversity. I mean, obviously, being a showrunner is challenging uh of any type of show and and the things that you face on the scripted side. But I want to back up a little bit. A, I I love the deadly sketch. We can go into the weeds about that for hours about watching that show and and my my fear of the cold and what you had to deal with, but like let's go back even further to your your start. One that you didn't start on Fear Factor, but you were a field producer or a producer on on the earlier version of Fear Factor. And I read that one of your jobs was to prepare that awful food and to test that awful food. And by awful food, I mean like making rack smoothies and whatever you guys were doing to sort of torture and push these guests to the limit. Can you talk a little bit about that phase of your career and also like what it means for your desire to make it in this town that you are willing to also not only push these guests or these contestants, but also push yourself because you had to take part in all of that?

SPEAKER_03 6:29

Yeah, I think Fear Factor has really been has come full circle for me. I started that show as a wee pup out of Wisconsin, being like, I'm gonna make it to LA and I'm gonna be big time. You know, um, I was doing, you know, jazz hands. I don't, you know, it's a podcast, so there's no point on doing that. But um uh I came out here and I was gonna do whatever it took. And I remember my interview, I was sitting there and they were like, How do you feel about testing stunts? And I'm like, awesome. I would love to hang from a helicopter, I love to do drive a car off a bridge. Uh and then they're like, Gross dunts. So I'm like, oh okay. Like I had to make it somehow and start somewhere, and this is you know how you, you know, make it. And so, you know, I've this job has been full circle for me because I started on it as the gross stunt tester and chef. And then I don't know, eight years later, 10 years later, I'm show running it. So it's really amazing and so much. I'm so thankful for that show and that format. And, you know, um, my bosses that taught me so much about that, you know, when I first started. But like I will never forget, like it's I had my first time on set, I had to spend all this time boiling cow eyeballs. And, you know, little does anyone else know that you have to boil them for seven minutes in order to boil out all the bacteria. Uh, but at eight minutes, what happens is they implode. And so you need, we need 50 eyeballs, and that stunt we had to pop the eyeballs in your mouth to fill up a cup and then drink it. And we needed about 50 to 100 eyeballs, which meant I needed to cook two to 300 of them because the failure rate was so high. And I'm like out of college, like I really don't know what I'm doing. My mom was a chef, and I remember calling my mom up in the Fear Factor kitchen. I was like, mom, how long am I making these things? What am I doing? She's she's like in the middle of cooking a wedding, and she's like, Honey, I truly don't know how you cook these cow eyeballs. So a little bit trial by fire, and what happened is we cooked them and then we send them away to a food lab, and the food lab breaks it down, and so now we'll know how many calories are in it, how many like carbs, you know, but more importantly is if it's safe, if there's any pathogens in there. And then we get to set, and then I didn't know I was gonna have to test this challenge at this time. And uh Matt Cunitz, the executive producer at the time, was like, um, you know, you're gonna have to do this, or else I'm gonna have to, and you don't want me to do it. And little did now that I know Matt, like I should have called his bluff because it would have been great to watch, you know, the executive producer of the show do this. But I was like, no, no, Mr. Kunitz, I'll do it. And that was like, that was my intro to Hollywood was popping kawaii balls into a cup and then drinking all the fluid. And then from there, like it just went full circle. And those stunts are my favorite part of this business. I've done game shows, I've done press your luck, I've done challenge shows, I've done all kinds of stuff. But these big challenges are so much fun because what happens is you're sitting in an office with a bunch of other creative people and a marker board, and you're like, what can we do? And it's like, all right, we should have this car and have it hit a K-Rail, do a flip, and then the contestants have to like get out and do something else, whatever the challenge is. And you dream it up, you write it on a board, and it sounds great. And our stunt men are like, Yeah, that sounds good. But when you get to set, you have all these pieces, and sometimes you test the challenge and it just doesn't work. And it's not like a scripted movie or a show where you know it's like, okay, maybe this doesn't flip the way we want it to, but in the storytelling process, we'll make it do that. Like these are like people's lives and these are challenges, and because of SP, standards and compliances, it has to be the exact same and fair for everybody because there's money at stake. So now what happens is everyone gets to you're creative, you're like, all right, I've got this cart, I've got this K Rail, I've got X, Y, and Z. How do I create a new show out of these, uh, a new challenge out of these pieces? And that's so much fun, just because uh that's like you're figuring it all out. And just because at a mic on a marker board, you know, three months ago in office, you thought it worked, it doesn't always work. And but you have to shoot that day, uh, and you figure it out. And so that is so much fun. Thinking on your feet and just building these challenges has been a dream, it's been great.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

I I I I I have some deeper dive questions that go further back into your career that I was just about to ask, but I'd actually be remiss now not to ask this question. What is the worst thing that's gone wrong in in, you know, for you guys if you can talk about it while setting up one of these stunts or about to shoot or shooting and everything's going chaotic and wrong, and you guys have to fix from, you know, because you try to be kind of invisible, right, to the process, but in this case, you have to interact and solve and fix on the fly because everything's becoming sort of a disaster.

SPEAKER_03 11:49

Um I think all right, I know. Um I think one of my favorite things that has actually gone wrong on Fear Factor was that in one of the final seasons, uh growing up, um I say growing up, but like working on the show as a PA to EP, I've always wanted to do one thing. And I've always wanted 5,000 gallons of cow blood in a tank. And I wanted people to dive in there like a pool. And I, because in season like two, maybe they did just like bobbing for cow hearts and like a 50-gallon tank of blood, and it's like great, 50 gallons, whatever. I wanted 5,000 gallons, and I wanted like this is like my dream, right? Like, this is what I wanted. Maybe, maybe like some scripted uh producers just like really want to work with Hillary Duff or somebody. I just really wanted 5,000 gallons of blood in a tank, and so finally I'm I'm back, and we so we do this, and we have this plexi tank, and we start filling it up. But the thing that nobody really failed to realize is that blood is thicker than water and it is denser, it is heavier, and so our tank was water rated, and so we start filling this tank up on set with blood, and you start hearing like cracks, and like for the first time in my entire career, I heard somebody shout, evacuate set, and we're like, ah, because the tank was starting to crack. And so everyone is like running out of set. There's like camera assists, like carrying cameras on their back, like dropping tapes. This is no, we're still shooting on tape, dropping tapes as they're like running away. And the tank never fully like broke, like in a movie, and like blood just flew, came out like that. Never happened, thank God. Um but we ended up taking ratchet straps and strapping it all around the tank, and it aired like that. So maybe you'll look at it and be like, Why are there ratchet straps on this huge tank? And it's because without them, we all thought the tank was gonna exp like burst. And that was that was scary. That's our whole stunt. If we lost that whole tank of blood, then I would be stuck with like 25 cow hearts and like half a gallon of blood and have to figure out what to do.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

Extraordinary. So uh much as it pains me to leave the world of adversity to talk about the sort of more traditional Hollywood rejection and failure stuff, I think we sort of have to a little bit. So in your world on your side of the business, presumably you have had as many ideas for shows be rejected and you have not got jobs that you've wanted as people on sort of Noah's side of the business. Is that is that right, or is it different on in your side?

SPEAKER_03 14:55

No, it's exactly the same, but maybe I mean it's just it's exactly the same. And it it's I can't speak for the scripted side, but like I've been fired before for things that weren't my fault to pitching. Like, I'll tell I've never in my life have been fired except for once. I guess that makes no sense. I've been fired once in my entire life, and that is probably the most Hollywood story there is because one of the producers made a mistake and dropped the ball. He pulled me aside and he's like, listen, I know I made this mistake. Um, but if you go to the EPs and say that I told you to do this and you didn't, then I'm gonna make it up to you next season. I'll give you a raise. And I was like, okay, like this was like, you know, I was still kind of young, and I was I wanted to be the guy that'll take the fall for the higher ups. And so I did that, and then I got fired, and I was like, what? Like, I was just shocked, and that was like it sounds like such a Hollywood cliche story, but that's like where I've learned like you can't trust people, and you can't trust people with your ideas sometimes because like you have an idea, and if you tell the wrong person, they can steal that idea and twist it around into something else and go off and sell it, or like for challenges, there's no real uh challenges and challenge shows are IP, in my opinion, and there's like I was watching TV a few months ago and I saw one of my challenges that I created on another show, and I was like, son of a bitch, like that was a challenge I created, and it was on it aired, and someone else just took it. Like, those guys at Survivor are probably some of the best challenge producers out there, and they get their challenges ripped off all the time. Like, it's it sucks because there's no IP for uh protecting your your ideas when it comes to the challenge world. So that's rough too. And then I guess one of my other big stories uh when it comes to rejection is that I worked with this one guy who's probably the worst human being I've ever met personally in my life or worked with. Uh, he owns a giant production company, and I think everyone in the unscripted world knows exactly who I'm talking about. But he would yell at me uh all the time. He yelled at everybody all the time. He would call me a schlub. He said he wouldn't let me wear plaid in the office because he said wearing plaid makes you look like you're not a professional. Meanwhile, this is like TV, like people show up in sweatpants, um, you know, and like I couldn't wear plaid. Like, this is the only time my career, in my life, actually, like I woke up and I looked myself in the mirror before I had to go into work. And like, I was like, is this okay what I'm wearing? Is this okay what I look like? Is this okay? Because I just didn't want to get yelled at. He was a terror. Um, and so that like I spent like a thousand dollars redoing my wardrobe. Like, I learned how to use an iron. Like, I mean, I'm not like going wrinkly as terrible stuff, but like this guy like destroyed like my confidence and my creativity as I had to work in that office. And I think that's the best thing about our our business is that everything is like, you know, six months, and then you move on to something else. So we're the masters of something for six months, and then we go on and then we're the master of something else. Um, so it didn't last that long, but quick introduction here.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Quick introduction to go back to your story. I I want to clarify something. You were okay drinking ground up rats and and and eyeballs of cows and other things, and going into sub-freezing deadliest catch Alaska and living on a boat for weeks at a time, but it wasn't the fact that you couldn't wear a plaid that brought you to the breaking point in that job, just to clarify.

SPEAKER_03 19:14

It sounds that way. Uh, I really only own two plaid shirts. Um, but I think it's like I put myself in those situations, right? I drank cow, blended, cow, blended rats, which I did. That's the worst thing I did, is eat blended rat. But I ate blended rats. I went to negative 40 degrees up, you know, in Dutch Harbor because I wanted to. I made those choices. And those I put myself in those situations. I didn't put myself in a situation to get belittled consistently and made feel less than because of a plaid shirt choice.

SPEAKER_00 19:54

So um I want to go back to the you being fired. Um, I I I don't know how how deep we can go into this. I'm not sure I I don't necessarily want names, but I want a little bit more on this story. So you basically take the fall for a producer. You get fired by the exec producer. Um so like did the producer reach out to you separately, apologize, offer to try and help you get a job somewhere else? Did he pretend it didn't happen? Like, what was the it feels like there must have been a you know an act two to this?

SPEAKER_03 20:30

Uh this is actually this could be even the worst part of it. Is that I know people that um have worked with this guy today, and he'll bring up, he's like, Oh yeah, that guy, I fought for him, I did everything I could to keep him around, and uh and just couldn't do it, and so he still just lives in this fantasy world of like he did no wrong, and I think that's like how the terrible people have to live with themselves. I think like on the surface, while these moments are career lows, for me, looking back at it, being a little older, they're career highs, because I learned more from my failures than my successes with every terrible human being, everything along the way that has been bad and awful just makes me a better producer and I think a stronger boss because it's easier to know who you don't want to be, I think sometimes, than it is to know who you want to be.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

100%. Well, I think we've talked about this on the show before, and I know I talk about it a lot in the uh in the real world, sorry, the non entertainment world in leadership about learning from bad bosses, and then, as you say, you can learn more from a bad boss than a good boss. I guess presumably you're now senior than this guy. Can you hire him and then fire him straight away just for a bit of petty revenge, or are you above that?

SPEAKER_03 21:56

I'm not above that. Uh not above that at all. I could do that, I guess, but I just don't even want to look at this person's face. I don't even want to look at them. I don't want to see them. I don't it's just so much easier.

SPEAKER_00 22:14

I guess it's difficult because you you haven't worked on both sides, but we've heard some absolute horror stories about how people are treated. Well, I see more how people were treated on the scripted side in TV. Um and some of that has changed as the world has changed. So some of the more abusive bullying behaviors are now no longer tolerated and so on. On your side of the business, has it got better now, or is it actually still a little bit Wild West and brutal?

SPEAKER_03 22:48

It's gotten better, but you know what makes it better is becoming an EP. Because then, and I've heard other people on your show talk about it, and I I think I just heard it uh a few weeks ago, and I forget her name. She said that she has a no assholes policy, and I and I do too. And I think the good showrunners um I would hope have that policy, and so the best way, uh, I think the best way to not have that be an issue is to become the showrunner yourself, and from what you've learned from these assholes and to not be that person. And I think uh it's a far I some stories I hear um from other people that work with other showrunners is you know there aren't as many assholes anymore. I can't believe Plaid guy still has a job. Um, like I'm absolutely shocked that he's still in the business being uh as mean as that person is. But um I think it's gotten a lot better for a lot of people. Um, I think the hours unscripted people work is still, you know, needs to see change. But across from the producers and the network level, I think it's a lot better.

SPEAKER_01 24:02

I just want to make kind of a less of a question, more of just an observation or conversation. You know, your side's very different than the scripted side, and that you that in the scripted side, we're always mining for drama in the scripts, right? We're writing in awful breakups or car crashes or deaths, but obviously the actors then get up after the take and go home and they're not dead and they haven't broken up with anyone, and even though they've taken themselves to a dark place, and hopefully the audience will go on that journey with them on screen when it airs, they're you know relatively unscathed by it. We can go into the fact that sometimes they do get scathed and all of that, but that's acting in the nonscripted side, you know, especially on the shows you're on, Ice Road Trucker's Deadliest Catch, things go wrong for people. And and and often that makes the best television, right? Because it's their drama. If if you went on Deadliest Catch and it was just a beautiful day and they were catching crabs and a lot of they were catching a lot of them, there's not a lot of TV there. It's when there's a storm and and the boats and that you know that the captain is sick. You talk a little bit about sort of mining for drama in real life and the toll that it takes on you as a producer.

SPEAKER_03 25:08

Um, yeah, so I think the thing is like a lot of that, those shows, you're just documenting their lives. And you know what happens, happens. They're gonna be fishing, they're gonna be driving these trucks, they're gonna be doing whatever it is they're doing if you're there or if you're not there. So you're just there capturing it. Um, but at the end of the day, like, yeah, you see a lot of really awful stuff happen to people, and you just need to stay neutral as much as you can and tell that story. And I on the latest season of Deadliest Catch, uh guy that I worked with, Todd Stanley, um who is a veteran, I think he probably was there on day one of Deadliest Catch, had an injured deck hand and put the camera down to help because he's been doing he's been doing this forever and has um some sort of medical training, I believe. And so there's a line too, you don't want to see anybody die or suffer um and if you can intervene. And I think at the end of the day, you know, and I was doing a show uh up in Alaska, and uh I was showrunning. We had someone that like fell into the ice and like we jumped in to help because at the end of the day, you can't like just put your camera, you know, you can't just hide behind your camera and watch somebody pass away when you can do something. So there's a line and you have to know when when you can cross it. And I think at the end of the day, you're just making a TV show, right? And a TV show is our it's our job and we love it, and it's a passion, but people's lives are more important, you know, like a good scene.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

I think that's that's interesting. Thank you. I've never had to think about it the way that you're phrasing it now. Obviously, I've not never been on that side, but but not having been on that side, it leads me to my next question, too, about just you know, leadership. And we talk to a lot of showrunners, and obviously, you know, on the scripted side, part of being a showrunner is being a really good writer because they've they've worked their way up through the writing side, and now they're the boss of a TV show. And if you're a director, obviously you have to learn the skills to be a director. What are the skills on your side that you're looking for when you're hiring? And then also what are the skills that you've learned, you know, like the no assholes policy about just being a leader, uh, you know, people making entertainment, but uh, but it's a very stressful, you know, high turnover environment.

SPEAKER_03 27:39

Yeah, I think um a couple things that I've learned is that the thing I like so much about the unscripted side is it's so creative. Um it's I think the creative powers are in more people's hands to make that show happen. And so, like when we're doing a show, you know, we're in our our host's ear, and there we're in earwig, and I'm you know next to the director. And, you know, if the host is doing something, I can tell them, like, hey, ask them about you know, riding a motorcycle as a child, because our story people have talked to this contestant. We know they've fallen off the motorcycle as a kid, broke their prize possession, and are playing for this motorcycle, and it's a big emotional beat. So, like, we know that from pre-interviews. I just relay that to our host, and now our host is gonna ask that question, it's gonna come out, and we're gonna get this beautiful story for when we offer them a motorcycle later in the episode. So, you know, we're telling a story that way through prize, but you know, it's on top of that. Like, sometimes I think I have funny jokes, and I'm telling them to our host to then say, and sometimes the host is like, This is stupid, I'm not saying this. Uh and it's just it's so much fun because uh we oftentimes have like writers that are working there that can shut lines at me that I can tell the host. Um, so like we're all working together as a team. I'm sitting next to the director, you know, and the director's like, hey, I want to do this, or I want, or I tell them I want to get this shot. So it's it's really a collaborative environment in the control room where we're kind of working together, talking through all the all the key key components of the show, which is just so much fun. Because, you know, I think everyone has a hand in making that story happen from the story producer that's doing interview questions. You know, the journey they take by asking these questions helps change our final cut, you know. Um, and that's what's really great. There's so much power and so much creativity across all aspects. And I think, you know, that's one thing I love so much about it. And one thing I have learned is that at the end of the day, your ego is gonna make it for a terrible show. And so I don't care where an idea comes from on shows that I work on, if it's a PA, if it's a janitor, if it's the director, if it's talent, it doesn't matter. If a if there's an idea that makes the show better, we do it. Because we just want to make the best product we can and have people watch the show and enjoy it. And so it doesn't matter. Some, you know, it doesn't matter where it comes from, if it makes the show better, it airs. And I think that's just one thing I take with me to every show that I do. And I think it just makes it fun for everybody. Everyone's got skin in the game that way. Uh, that and the other thing is I try to make for the most fun sets that I possibly can. Back in that day, that used to mean margarita machines, um, which you know we don't do so much anymore. But, you know, it's about having fun. Like, we're not carrying cancer, we're making a game show, we're making a TV show. And if we have fun and we're joking around, the contestants see that, the host sees that, and that bleeds onto camera, then they have fun. They don't feel the tension and the hostility that there could be on a set. And that's what makes Brocated TV fun.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Uh, maybe a similar question to Noah's question, in the sense that um he was asking about the sort of you know, the the jeopardy that people get put into. Um I guess this is a sort of longer-term jeopardy, and I'm not sure if it's as bad in America as it is in England, but there is a process now where uh people become famous in unscripted shows. Um and uh the modern trappings of fame are not suited for everybody, and things can often go horribly wrong for these people. Um so it's less even about what happens during your show necessarily. But you're creating a media personality and then uh, you know, there's not wonderful stories of what's happened to people afterwards as the media then enjoy the fact that there's lots of things in their lives that make for great scandal, and then people get taken down and all that sort of stuff. Um You know, if one of your shows does particularly well, how do you feel about sort of creating media personalities out of people who maybe were were just sort of minding their own business, you know, fishing and driving trucks, and now you you've helped them, but maybe you might be ruining their lives.

SPEAKER_03 32:20

Well, it's it's interesting because it there's two sides of this coin. And side one is in game shows and that world where I I truly just it doesn't, I don't care who wins. Um, and I'm not allowed to care because of SP. And what matters is having a good show. And so in that regard, I don't talk to these people really afterwards. We'll probably get an email, it's just thanks to us that a great time on the show. But I don't want to get invested, I don't really care so much what happened where their life goes because I want to make a fair and honest game show. And if I start caring about what happens to these people after the show or before the show, it can impact you know the fairness of a show. So, unlike a game show, it doesn't really matter what happens to these people afterwards. What matters is that once they walk into the building, they are in an environment where they have fun and it's fair and equal to everyone that's on the show. So that's that side of that coin. The other side of the coin are like, yeah, that these guys and girls that are on ice for truckers and uh and uh Deadly's catch are like huge stars, and that's great. Uh I you know, I was only on for like two seasons, so I can't say I had much of a hand of making them famous, but I definitely feel like I had a hand in maintaining that fame and then dealing with that fame as you're working with them, uh which can be really tough. There's big time egos out there. But here's the thing that you need to realize is that when you want to be famous and your vehicle for fame is being on that show, I'm the producer on that show that is you know fueling that car. And if you want to be an asshole to me and not talk to me, that's fine. I'll just go to bed. I've been up for 25 hours. I I don't need to sit here and film you. And if I'm not there filming you, then you're not gonna have as much air time and you're not gonna be as big of a star. And so it's a catch-22, so it's like that this was my move all the time. And listen, I I love Captain Phil uh on Deadliest Catch, as I'm like Cornela Marie, and he he was great to me and gave me a lot of great uh like parental advice, which I love, and we had a really good relationship, and I would say this to him all the time, and I'd be like, Phil, if you want to be a dick, I'm gonna go get lunch. And when you stop when I stop being a dick and you want to talk to me, let me know. And then I and then I walk away. And that's the best thing about being on a crab boat because if I I can get that bite now or I can get that bite tomorrow, I still got the bite. Um, and so that was a lot of fun playing that with him, and we had a game back and forth because I looked 12 years old on that show and he called me mouse, and so uh it was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

Do you have any in terms of the the scripted world? Does it interest you? Do you think there's a skill set that you've got from this side of it that you could take over there and do things with? Um and you know, the same applies to other parts of the industry, movies and so on. Are you is that not how you see that?

SPEAKER_03 35:41

Oh yeah. Mike, I don't know if you you my cousin is Gene Wilder or was Gene Wilder. Um he's from Milwaukee, Wisconsin. His name was Jerry Silverman before he changed it to Gene Wilder. And so when I came out here, I was like, I'm gonna follow on cousin Gene's footsteps, and I'm gonna be on the scripted side, and I'm gonna, you know, maybe be an actor or work in movies. And I started uh on that side, and it was just so boring because you know, only a handful of people have that creative power and that uh that ability to shape a show. And I wanted, I wasn't patient. I was you know, 22-year-old kid from Wisconsin. Uh like I wanted to like do stuff. And so uh I ended up after that getting this offer on Fear Factor. I was like, oh, I'll take it. I get to test dunts and you know do these challenges. Like that sounds like a lot more fun than running scripts and doing nothing and watching the same scene over and over again, and now, oh, let's do this scene again, but let's move the camera 10 feet to the left, and now let's do it again. And all day you shoot the same scene over and over. Like, I shoot a whole episode in a day. Uh, and that's or sometimes on double dare, we shot three episodes in a day, and like turnovers so fast, and so you know, when you're an ADD kid, you want to do as much stuff as you can, and so I think as much as I respect and love movies and the scripted side, it just moved too slow for me. Um, but now uh I'm working over at Disney Plus, and we did scripted scenes in Footastic with Kiki Palmer, who's just like the greatest gift to any producer. She's so smart, talented, and can do everything uh that she made all of us look so good. But that's my first time really doing scripted scenes as a showrunner. And uh we had Jude Wang, who's like a super talented director, done like act like huge movies, and uh she's on she's done a bunch of scripted stuff. And so working with her and Kiki, I in the scripted world, I felt like so out of my league, but it was like so much fun, and it was so great. So it was a lot, it was really a great learning experience. And so I did actually get to you know fulfill that dream of working the scripted side, but this time I was a showrunner, so I actually had input.

SPEAKER_01 38:18

That's awesome. Uh we're getting to the time of the podcast where I needed to ask the final question, but I want to sneak in one more quick question before we get to the final question. My quick question is this you've been on some dangerous shows. I mean, shows that look like they're dangerous for the people on the show, especially that and that they, you know, you know they're dangerous, like the ice road truckers. Like I used to watch, like, are they gonna slip off the road and all die? Or deadliest catch-off also, which I also used to watch, going, is that boat ever gonna come in? Have you ever been in a situation personally as the producer on a boat or on a truck or or following them where you felt like you weren't gonna survive the day?

SPEAKER_03 38:52

Uh yeah, twice I thought I was gonna die. Um one time we're in a storm with uh 40-foot waves and 100 mile an hour winds, and the boat, a wave would hit the side of the boat, and the whole boat would go like 60 degrees, you know, starboard side, and then pop back up, and you can't see anything because uh ice has just caked over the whole windshield, then a wave hits you, and then you can see the world for like five seconds before it freezes again. And Phil came down with uh life with uh um with a suit and was like, you know, put on the survival suit. We may need it, and I was like, oh my god. Uh that was the second time I thought I was gonna die. The first time I actually thought I was gonna die was um on ice road truckers, and we're up in Prudhoe Bay, and it was a huge whiteout storm, and we weren't driving, we were actually like uh she was offloading the truck, and so we had some downtime, and I'm like, I'm gonna go get an establishing shot of the Prudhoe Bay sign in this blizzard. Um, and I said to one of uh our assistants, I'm like, I'll be back. Bye. And so I walk out there and I'm walking out, and it is so windy, I can barely stand up. It is white out and I can't see five feet in front of me. And so my plan is I'm gonna follow the delineators. And uh, for those of you that don't know, delineators are the things on the side of the street, the highway, that tells you where the end of the road is on the left and the right side of the street. You know, they usually are every X number of yards. Uh, and so I was like, I'm just gonna follow these delineators, I'll keep them on my right, I'll know I'm on the street, and then I'll find the sign, shoot the sign. It'll be this beautiful establishing shot of the sign and the wind and the snow, and viewers at home will be like, oh, it looks really stormy up there. And so that was my plan. And so I'm walking, I'm keeping the delineators on my right, and then I lost track. The snow really and the wind picked up, and I couldn't see the next delineator in front of me. And I keep walking, and now I can't find the delineator behind me, I can't find the one in front of me, and it's there's so much snowy where I couldn't tell if I was on the highway or not. And so, like an idiot, I think a smart person would have just sat, stayed there, could see again, but and like an idiot, I was like, I'll just keep walking straight. But I think the thing is you think you're walking straight and you never walk straight, like you're probably veering off to the right. And so I was, and I was off the highway. I had no idea where I was. Uh it was so windy I could barely stand. And it was, I couldn't see anything, it was getting cold, and you know, it I didn't know what time of day it is because in Alaska in the winter, it's pretty much almost always dark. And so I just didn't know where I was. And I'm like, I just sat down and I was like, I'm gonna just sit here and wait until you know daybreak. And it I started, I couldn't feel my toes, so I was like, I gotta keep walking so I can't feel my toes. And I'm like, I'm gonna be the uh, I'm gonna be the guy that either gets eaten by a bear or frozen to death out in Alaska as the stupid, you know, Los Angeles TV producer. Uh, and then eventually I was found the the uh the people that I worked with back in the in the hotel we were staying, uh called and the police came out and the police found me somehow and brought me back. And that was like the police didn't find me. I didn't know how. I mean, I could have lost fingers and toes before froze to death out there. And that was just for a shot, like I could have died for a shot.

SPEAKER_01 42:37

That is a legit scary story. It's very similar to the story where I once ate too much candy in the writer's room and felt like I was spending heart palpitations. So I feel like our situations are very similar for the scripted and non-scripted. No, thank you for that uh that great story. Uh it is now time, unfortunately, for our our our final question. And the final question is uh, you know, we ask everybody that comes on here is if you had one piece of advice for an aspiring, you know, uh unscripted reality, unscripted andor reality TV producer, uh what would it be?

SPEAKER_03 43:11

The advice I would give would be the same advice I got from uh David Hurwitz, who was the executive producer of Fear Factor when I first started. And I was really like, whatever it was, one day I was really done and out. I'm like, there's a thousand PAs out here that would gladly take my job for less. And you know, I I'm never gonna move up. Whatever it was, I was probably feeling like bad about myself. I probably just ate a rat or something. And he said that the cream always rises to the top, and there could be a thousand people out here more that all will work for less, but there aren't that very many great people. And if you're a great producer, you're gonna get that job. And now that I'm a show runner and I'm hiring, there are a thousand resumes, but there aren't a thousand talented, good, hardworking people. And I think for all the shows I do, there's always a spot for two people. And one one is somebody that does not have the experience, somebody that's diverse and just needs the chance. There, every show I do, there's a spot for that person to come in there and be like, listen, I know you've been in LA for a month, but prove that you've got what it takes and start having more diverse people in our business and teaching teaching the right way. Uh, there's always a spot for that person in my crew, and there's always a spot for somebody that may not have the credits but is just super hardworking. Because you can't teach work ethic. And so uh just keep working hard, have work ethic, and you're gonna keep working forever.

SPEAKER_00 45:06

Fantastic. Josh Schilberman, fisherman, uh, ice adventurer, rat eater. Thank you very much for being part of our podcast.

SPEAKER_03 45:19

Please put that in my gravestone.

SPEAKER_01 45:22

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 45:23

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 45:32

And that's a wrap on this episode of Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss. As always, we want to thank James Launch for the amazing theme music.

SPEAKER_00 45:40

Before we sort of thank our wives and stuff, do you think anyone actually listens this far or do they stop when the music comes back in?

SPEAKER_01 45:46

I think they normally stop after you mention your second and third podcast podcast. Well, I haven't mentioned them yet, though, have I. Uh, if you do want to reach out with us to us for criticisms, complaints, or praise, uh, you can either reach out to us through the website or I am at nevslin on Twitter. And Dan, do you have an account?

SPEAKER_00 46:06

Not that anyone really cares about. So if you've got complaints about the show, go to NEVslin and feel free to air those. If you have praise or you want to pay us in some way for something, come to at Dan Rotstein. And have a great day.