Take 60 - Writer Liz Alper, WGA Board Member, Pay Up Hollywood

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for sure, dozens of unproduced scripts littering the floor.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

For every success, there is months, sometimes even years, of painful failure. This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

It's the normal to be able to persevere. Unlike everything in our business, your hands get counted, it all bounces off you. That process takes up doesn't have an overnight.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

I was being told by my manager it's yours to lose, and I promptly lost it. And I've ever thinks like, well, that's it for me. I blew my one big shot. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Welcome back to Streaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. As with every week, I am Dan Rotstein, your non-entertainment co-host.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

And I am your industry co-host, Noah Epslin. Today I'm excited to have on TV writer, WGA board member and co-founder of Pay Up Hollywood, Liz Alper. Liz started her writing career on Chicago Fire before working on such shows as Hawaii 5.0, The Rookie, Day of the Dead, and Two Sentence Horror Stories. Welcome, Liz.

SPEAKER_03 1:31

Hi. Hi guys. So nice to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

So I think what we're going to do this time is start. Noah will be pleased about this. Noah's obsessed with Twitter. So let's we're going to start. There was something that was on Twitter recently, a thread that you put together, Liz, which was basically if this podcast didn't exist, it's the sort of thing we would have looked at and thought, oh, why don't we make a podcast about rejection, failure, and diversity? So it, you know, it sort of sums up what uh what's going on. So can you just tell us a little bit about what you said for those who aren't on Twitter and the response you had to it? And I think let's take the discussion from there.

SPEAKER_03 2:11

Yeah, sure. So um just a little backstory. I've been speaking with members in the WGA, more of the rank and file members, about how they're holding up during the pandemic. Um, we're going into year three now of mini rooms and short orders, and it's exas exacerbating a problem that we'd already seen ramping up before the pandemic hit. Um and I was speaking to one lower-level writer who was expressing their concern about telling staff and maybe the board about the experiences that they were having, the difficulties they were having finding work, uh, the difficulties that they were having, even when they got work, being able to pay bills because they were only in 10-week rooms that weren't enough to qualify them for another year of health care. And when I brought up to them that, you know, if if you want to speak to other board members beside myself, or if you would like to speak with staff, I'd be happy uh to make an introduction. And what they said was, I don't want to talk to the other board members because those are people that I might want to work for one day. And it's it's just really embarrassing to have to talk to them about the fact that I I don't I'm not working right now and I don't see any prospects and I'm not able to pay my bills. I just I feel kind of ashamed about it. Um and for me, seeing that was was really heartbreaking because this is someone that you know I I don't know very well, but is someone who who, like so many writers, puts their heart and soul into their work. And when you can't find a job, because so much of what we do is infused with who we are as people, it feels like a rejection of yourself rather than what it really is, um, which is a game of musical chairs where there are far too few chairs going around from the from the hop. And so for me, I just wanted to write something for the rank and file members uh to see that, hey, you know, I'm I'm a board member, I'm one of your elected leaders. And right now things, things suck for me. You know, if you guys think that you're you're not worth our time, or you don't, you don't, you're going to be embarrassed coming to us with these problems, I want you to know that you know, we're facing the exact same thing. You know, I wake up every morning kind of terrified that I I am one day closer to the end of the month and I still don't have enough rent money in my account to know that I can I can make it this month. Um I I look at the days between now and the last time I work, which is just hit a year, and all of a sudden it's it's a it's a testament to my inadequacy as a writer, in my opinion. Um, and those feelings that I have, I've acknowledged, are things that I have created to shame myself because I feel like not being a working writer right now means that I should be ashamed because it means I'm not good enough or I'm not talented enough or I'm not cut out for this. And it's not true. It's not true. We all look at the times when we are staffed and we're looking back and going, man, those were some rough times. I'm so glad I'm doing okay right now, and I didn't, you know, and I didn't give up. But that's that's you know, far down the line when you have the the privilege of having hindsight. So I wrote this thread, just sharing the fact that I'm not working, I'm I'm in it right now. I'm not in the happy place where I have money coming in and I can say, like, yes, it's going to get better. I am in that scary place where I don't know if it's going to get better. Um, and I don't have the answers to be able to help you find a job, but I can tell you that you should not be ashamed about being in this place that you are. You're already dealing with enough stress and enough fear. The last thing you should be feeling is, you know, like you somehow deserved this because you're either not good enough or not talented enough. That's just not true. You got into the guild, you're a WGA member. That means you are good enough, you're talented enough. And right now, I think you're just in the majority of people who are having trouble working, but your shame is keeping you isolated. It's keeping you from getting the support you need. And if you need support and if you need someone to talk to, here I am. Like I'm here. So that that thread, um, as you know, I you guys probably saw took off in a way that I I wasn't expecting. And it was really nice to see a lot of people, you know, especially a lot of upper level writers coming out and saying, like, yeah, guys, like I'm in the same place. I know it looks like I'm probably doing well because maybe I have a check mark next to my name on Twitter, like the ultimate get, or maybe because I've been attached to some of your favorite shows. But it's rough out here, and I'm struggling too. And as a community, you know, what we can at least do is is be there for each other. Um, and I think that's that's a really beautiful sentiment that a lot of writers have been putting forth to try and support other people, other writers of who are going through this really, really terrible, dire time right now, uh, to at least say, you know, we can we can at least suffer in solidarity together.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

There's there's there's so many things I want to say to that. And first, just thank you for being so honest and transparent. Because one of the things that we found with this podcast was it's really a mirror of that post, right? Where people coming on and sharing their failures and rejections and adversity and saying, hey, it's super tough out there. And and that people find that um in a way kind of it kind of keeps them going because they realize they're not alone in this thing. Um, but it's gonna lead me to a couple of questions though. Uh, you know, why do you think, you know, we have we have a pandemic, we have um reason outside reasons why people are struggling, but I know showrunners not working, I know co-EP levels are going back to tutoring, I know, you know, why isn't this sustainable for those who are operating at the top of this business? I mean, it it takes so much work just to break in. And then you have to keep breaking in, keep breaking in. At the very least, once you're in, which has now become a myth, you should continue working regularly. And the majority of the writers in the guild are not. So, what you know, what do you think is causing that right now? And why, and and why I think it's as work as bad as it's ever been. And I want to hear that you agree with that's just a theory, but and and where do you think it's coming from? And as the guild and yourself and others, do are there any ways to fix this or make it better?

SPEAKER_03 9:46

Yeah, I think one thing that I mean, the biggest obstacle in my opinion, I can only really speak as a television writer because my career has been in in television. Um, I think if you have someone on who works on the film side or works in comedy variety, especially, they'll be able to speak um very succinctly to the very unique problems uh that those parts of our membership are facing. For television writers, the fact is we're facing, you know, an entire wealth of TV shows and projects that are on the air that are also, you know, in the room for 10 to 20 weeks uh at most, um, are only paying scale because they're classifying those rooms as quote unquote mini rooms, even though, you know, what you're basically saying is like, oh, well, you're only writing, so everybody should be making scale. And you're completely disregarding and disrespecting the uh experience that you know upper-level writers may have had, may have, you know, gathered from years and years and years of breaking story and being able to help the room. Um, and at the same time, we're also facing short episode orders. So a show that you may have worked on might not come out for two years. So we're really looking at a very instable um new new normal, which is awful because if you're like me, you probably worked on a show 20 weeks out of one year. Uh, and the show won't air until the following year. So the moment that that show is done, you have to go and find you know another project to hop on, which might not be possible. Um, I, for example, I might be the person that you call if one day maybe I could be as cool as Adele Lim. And maybe I'm the one that you call if Adele Lim is not available. However, if shows are now 10 to 20 weeks, it means that one writer might be hopping from one room to another. I might not be getting any calls anymore because Adele Limb is available, because she's only working on one show for 10 weeks and then another show for another 10 weeks. And it's getting to the point where you really almost need to be working on in three different mini-rooms a year to be able to make the same living that you were previously. And if that's the case, then it means that there are more opportunities than ever for writers to make a there are more opportunities than ever for writers uh to have a part-time job writing and you know, maybe have another part-time job doing something else. And that's kind of that's the issue. I worked on a show called Day of the Dead, as you mentioned, uh that was 10 weeks and didn't hit the air until you know almost a year and a half after we had wrapped the room. And in the meantime, I think one of us, no, two of us, um, besides the showrunners, were were able to go on to other work. And that room was already small. So we're we're facing an issue right now of employers, the studios not valuing writers, just kind of looking at a writer's room and going, just put anyone in there. It doesn't matter who, just you know, staff it and get your scripts in and give us our TV show. And before, when there were longer orders, there was a little bit more of a oh, okay. So these are the writers who are in this room, you know, and we work with them for 40 weeks out of the year, uh, and we know them and and they're long term and and we want them on other projects. You don't form those relationships now when you're in a short order room. Uh, no one remembers you after 10 weeks. So the industry has changed in such a way that it is, it is just hard to make a living, even though you you think of writers being these ultra-wealthy mansion collecting uh Hollywood Hills living, you know, uh Titans. And that's that's just only true for maybe less than 1% of our membership.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

So obviously, I I'm a non-industry person, so I'm asking a question from the outside. Obviously, I I think there was a great statistic that I saw, which I hope is true because I'm gonna quote it now, which is I think there's more active NFL players than there are uh Hollywood writers making a living. Um, so statistically, it is easier to play in the NFL. Um, I guess the question is there's a lot of industries that are changing. So manufacturing jobs that used to exist don't exist because parts of the job have been automated. Um, there are there are plenty of sort of paradigm shifts that have happened in other industries where the workforce just looks different now and there's fewer opportunities. And is there a reality that okay? I mean, it's obviously harder, but is actually the reality given that it is about money, and if the studios can make money this way and the quality of rights they're getting is enough that the shows are making enough money for them, but the world has just changed and there are fewer jobs. So I'm not sure all our listeners would want to hear this, but actually, maybe you know, like people trying to get into a sports league, there's not enough, there's only a certain number of jobs to go around. And if there's not enough, then maybe you need to be doing something else. Is that just the new reality that the world is now?

SPEAKER_03 15:49

I think that was always the reality. You know, there's always going to be more people who want to work in Hollywood than there are going to be jobs for people to work in Hollywood. Is that's especially true with writing? I think the problem now is can you make an actual living of it? And I think that's that's the issue that we're facing right now in Hollywood. That's the new normal. And the issue really stems all the way back from 2008 when there was, you know, the recession, and all of a sudden there were Hollywood studios who were selling assets in order to keep themselves afloat. They were selling off uh digital libraries and properties, and those were bought up by Wall Street folks. And so all of a sudden, instead of having people on the studio boards who really believed in film and really believed in the arts and and wanted to invest in a love of cinema, you have all of these Wall Street boroughs who are just looking for how do we make the most money by investing the least in whatever assets that it is that we have. And that those assets happen to be writers, happen to be directors, happen to be all of those film properties. And it's it's something that I always say is that if you're really upset about all of the reboots that you see happening right now, trace it back to 2008 when Wall Street decided to come to Hollywood. Um, and so right now what we're seeing is we're we're going into the second decade of a Wall Street-owned Hollywood. And we're seeing how the companies and our employers are valuing the assets rather than the workers. And they don't see lots of turnover as a problem. They see it as a way to keep costs down. And so we're being treated very much like any other industry, even though we are a creative one. Uh, we're being looked as commodities rather than employees. And I think it's really important for all of us, especially anyone who works inside of Hollywood, who isn't a writer, who is, you know, maybe a blue-collar craft, excuse me, um, or or is part of a union that is facing similar pushback from the employers to keep costs down and to keep wages low, to understand that it's going to take everybody in Hollywood who is considered to be working class going against the employers to demand, you know, better wages, better working conditions, uh, better livelihoods, and understand that we are now going to be a casualty of Wall Street if we don't figure out what to do. And if you're going to ask me next, like what is it that we do? I don't have the answer. I wish I did. It's something that I've been pondering for the last two years. But you know, we are part of, you know, a Wall Street package now. And if we don't do something, our way of living is going to be reduced to part-time work, being a TV writer, while you're also working your quote unquote real job, you know, maybe driving for Uber or or, you know, working in an Amazon warehouse. That's kind of the reality that we're starting to face.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

I'm I I do I'm very curious about things the guild can do, but that's you know, that's that's theoretical and hypothetical. So we can maybe get there or not later on in this discussion. But what I do want to touch upon now is what you are doing and what you have done and the ramifications that maybe you've had on your own career. Uh, the the you I you you know, you I've known you for a number of years through a variety. We've worked on the same show not at the same time. There was a number of different reasons why you and I have crossed paths, but you came to my real attention because you are very vocal in trying to help people who can't always help themselves. And you first were you did the staffing grade, and that was sort of helping all of us, right? Get read and you know, navigate the agency battle. And then you took on a new sort of battle of your own, which is making sure that the assistants in this uh in our world were getting paid correctly. And you began to take on the studio studios, but you began to collect data, collect stories, you shame them in many ways to do the right thing. And they did maybe not as much as they could or should or would, but they they made adjustments based on this campaign of pay up Hollywood. So can you talk a little bit about that? And do you feel like, I mean, you're not just taking on, you know, the Warner Brothers anymore or family-owned studios? You're taking on Wall Street when you're taking on massive conglomerates by saying you need to pay us more and they don't want to pay more from whether it's us as as a very powerful union, or especially those who can't afford, you know, rent in Los Angeles and who are the support staff. So can you talk a little bit about that? And has it had an effect on you and your own career, do you think? Both both good and bad?

SPEAKER_03 20:55

I'm sure it has. I'm sure it has. I definitely have a lot of friends who um I think have have gray opinions. Not that you know, assistants shouldn't be paid um a living wage because I think everyone's very much in agreement on that. I think it's more the way that the way that I do it, maybe that that they disagree with. Um, and they're they're very caring and they like to look out for me. So I can't fault them for that. Um, but what I would say is that Pay Up Hollywood is a movement that was really born out of my own past as an assistant. Um, because there was money that I made um as a writer's assistant that in 2011 that was the same amount of money that a writer's assistant in 2019 was making, even though rent had jumped maybe you know, 30, 40, 50 percent, um, if not higher from when I was an assistant. Yeah. And and so for me, it was kind of this shock and and this idea that you know, this Realization that I had, I myself had been gaslight by the industry in perpetuating this sort of pay your dues behavior for the next generation of assistants. And there was absolutely no reason for it. The only reason for it was to make sure that we were keeping support staff labor cheap and plentiful. And instead, what I had contributed to was enacting and erecting uh boundaries that were keeping people from historically underprivileged backgrounds or, you know, even non-historically underprivileged backgrounds from getting into the industry. And instead of, you know, I bought into this myth that Hollywood was a merit-based, um merit-based creative venture, as opposed to what it really was, which was a pay or play industry. Um, if you have the money to be able to sustain yourself until that big break comes, which might come in five, six, 10, 15 years, then yes, you will ultimately have the chance, you know, to make your mark. That is guaranteed if you can hang out long enough in Hollywood, if you can eat dirt long enough to hang out in Hollywood, you will ultimately have your chance. The realization that in order to do that, people were going hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt, or they were feeling suicidal because they were feeling trapped in a gig that they couldn't live because they were living hand to mouth every week with their current paycheck, meant that we were keeping actual real talent out of Hollywood. And this idea that we were this inclusive industry that rewards creativity is just it's a it's a load of bullshit, quite honestly. Um, I'm not saying that's not true. I think that there are plenty of incredible minds who have had that opportunity and who have been rewarded and who have deserved it. But I also think that if we think that we're the sort of industry that welcomes creativities at all level, it's not true. We don't welcome creativity from historically underrepresented groups like BIPOC executives, uh, LGBTQ, disabled writers, um, writers over 55. I mean, we have an age limit in Hollywood where people practically age out. Um, and it's almost like, you know, the fucking giver. Um, but I think the other, the other thing that we need to keep that really inspired me to put myself out there with Pab Hollywood was the idea that there was an entire generation of Hollywood assistants who were going to be the next directors and the next um executives and the next costume designers, hair and makeup, mailroom heads. And they could set the tone in a way that was healthy and inclusive and ensured that everybody was actually making a living wage rather than going deeper and deeper into debt to work in the dream factory that is Hollywood, where we sacrifice ourselves so that our bosses can make you know millions upon millions in profit. Um and just something needed to be done to kind of make the gears go in a different direction. Um, I didn't know if it was going to be Pay Up Hollywood. I think Pay Up Hollywood has certainly helped and contributed to efforts that others have made over the years and how they're currently making. I think the difference with that is social media existed in the time that Pay Up Hollywood was conceived. And social media, I think, has been a real game changer in controlling the narrative that is out there. And that has quite honestly been one of the biggest changes um since I came up as an assistant, because before it was just this is what you do, and no one speaks out. And if you have an issue, like you're kind of alone, so don't say it. You know, again, it's it's a very divide and conquer and isolate and make sure that if you have opinions that go against the grain, like you keep it to yourself. And with this, it was very easy to reach out and and find other people who were saying, I have always felt this way. And it is it is bullshit, and something does need to change. And so it was easy to put on the pressure when you had that.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

So obviously, this is all massively complicated, but not unique to Hollywood.

SPEAKER_03 26:45

No.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

So I remember, you know, when I was a journalist starting out, my starting salary was seven and a half thousand pounds a year, so that's sort of ten thousand dollars. And I remember going to see the editor of my newspaper and saying, I can't live on this. I had more money when I was a student. So, okay, fine, just quit and someone else will take your place because everyone wanted to be a journalist. And everyone did, and you, you know, everyone sucked it up and worked their way through it. I know there was a big scandal a couple of years ago. There were pictures of WNBA players sitting at airports in the middle of the night because they were flying, you know, economy and changing planes before they'd have to go and play at games the next day, and obviously being paid relatively pitiful pitifully for it. So, this is a reality in many industries and has been for a long time, which obviously doesn't make it right. Um, and inclusivity is the hardest part of it because arguably I could afford to get into massive debt as a journalist because I I thought it would somehow work its way out, and it sort of eventually did, and other people can't afford to take that risk or suffer from it. But I guess is there a point where obviously all these industries make plenty of money and decide to pay people the way they do? You know, they they could pay more, but they don't. But there's some parts of it where actually some of this is just it is just the process. And if you want to be, you know, if you if you want to earn good money, go and get a job as a lawyer or an accountant or get a solid job in a manufacturing facility or whatever it is, you know, you you're choosing to work in fascinatingly interesting industries with potentially enormous rewards, and part of the cost of doing so is it's really difficult and crap at the beginning. Is that isn't that how economies function that that's just how it is?

SPEAKER_03 28:47

I would disagree with what you said right there, because I think the problem that you're that you're attributing um to everybody who works in Hollywood is that at some point you will make massive rewards. You are working in the industry in order to make lots and lots of money. And that's simply not true because we work jobs. You know, what we're doing is work to make somebody else money. And if you want to be a director, if you want to be a writer, maybe there will be a huge payday at the end of the day. But in most of the crafts in Hollywood, you will never make more than probably a middle class wage if you're lucky. And if you're looking at what happened with Iopsy, for example, a lot of the people who have been working as grips and as electrics, um, as drivers, a lot of those guys are making, you know, again, hand-to-mouth money uh while working, you know, 80 to 100 hours a week and dropping dead of heart attacks 20 years before they really should be, simply because they've been worked to the bone by Hollywood. And, you know, the employers are saying, okay, well, that guy's gone, bring in the next one. You know, who's the working stiff that's going to take his place? I think we've glamorized Hollywood so much to the point that we think of it as a dream industry. And we've been able to get away with these sort of work abuses because we've said, okay, you're here to fulfill a dream. You're here to live out your la la la fantasy, uh, la la land fantasy. And instead, what we're actually doing is putting profits in the pockets of the shareholders while not making a living wage. You know, and that's the thing with the assistance that I'm I'm fighting for, is that no one is sitting there going, I should be rich as an assistant. All we're saying is you should not be going into debt or have to have a second job to be able to afford the first job that you are working on, because that first job that you're working, that position, that's not a luxury position to whoever has it. That is a required position that that employer needs in order to make their company work. And if you, if by by design, you know, your your position is so necessary to that company that they constantly need to have it filled rather than just eliminated, then you should be paid as though you are a necessary part of the company. It's it's very much like there was a there's a grocery store worker who made this tweet that always stuck with me, where he said, I have a government decree that says my job is an essential position and a paycheck that says it's not. And that's exactly the same thing that goes on with a lot of the support staff positions in Hollywood. They are essential positions. If they were not there, I guarantee you so many of the projects that we have in development, so many of the movies that have to get to the theaters, all of the people that make that happen, if they all went away, because I guarantee very few of them are actually making a living wage. And that's not just the support staff, that's the people in the middle, that's the execs, that's the directors of development, that's anyone who's in the middle. If they all went away, everything in Hollywood would come to a grinding stop. And so these are essential positions, and we are not paying them as such. And they deserve that sort of respect. They deserve the benefits, they deserve the pay of an essential position. And to say anything other than, yes, you are working a job and you deserve to be paid as though you're working a job is just an excuse to, you know, um to further uh discredit what these positions actually contribute to Hollywood. The Brit is doing very British things right now, and he no one can really see the Brit is doing, it's very funny, he's doing a little eye fluttering because I think he's thinking very hard as to what to respond to.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

Okay. Well, only because I mean, obviously, none of what you said is wrong at all. Um you know, it is but you know, every Uber driver I've had since I moved here is somebody working in the industry. Um, and you know, some of them actors, some of them writers, um, and some of them because they haven't made it yet, and some of them because they're just doing working two jobs. But in non-Hollywood places, lots of people do two jobs as well. So I'm not I'm not saying it's right that anyone is paid, you know, whatever the minimum wages are in any also.

SPEAKER_03 33:57

I just want to point out it's not right that any that all of America is essentially moving to a gig economy, you know, and that's one of the things that's that's incredibly problematic. You brought up why don't they become lawyers? Why don't they become doctors? Well, because the schooling that that requires, first off, is going to put you into debt. And then the payday for a lawyer or a doctor also isn't guaranteed. So these guaranteed, you know, guaranteed decent living positions. I don't know how else to to formulate it because words are escaping me right now. Um, but those positions in America, those are also not guaranteed. You know, it is very hard right now to say, let me find an industry that still offers health care it and still offers, you know, guaranteed living wage. If you look at colleges, you know, professors are fucking going at it for tenure because otherwise you are just not making a living whatsoever. It used to be that being college professors is kind of a guaranteed way of making, you know, a decent paycheck. That's just not the case anymore. Teachers are talking about how they don't have the budget to be able to pay for their own, you know, pens and pencils in their classroom. They're relying on things like Reddit school gift exchanges, where people gift classrooms, you know, thousands of dollars in supplies because otherwise the teachers will not have it. Most of America, you know, live in places and work in jobs that would require a GoFundMe for a major operation because they're not giving being provided with healthcare. Um, it's not just an industry-specific thing, but at the same time, you know, it's it's a job. It's a job. We're working a job.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

No, and I think that's the point. I think in some ways, it feels a lot of this is an America thing. Um, and actually it's happening in other countries as well, as opposed to a Hollywood thing. But anyway, uh Noah's got no, no one's looking for asking.

SPEAKER_01 36:19

And I love that, I love this debate, by the way. It's not even a debate, it's a conversation about kind of getting into the weeds of you know what we're worth and and what we're owed and what the companies want to pay us. And I think kind of which this is such an interesting conversation with Liz because you you're you're you're a TV writer, you know, you you you're a journeyman TV writer, you do this pay up Hollywood thing, and you're also in the one thing that can course-correct some of this, which is the reason why TV writers and screenwriters, when they do get paid, they get paid fairly well when there is a job, is because we have the power of collective bargaining. The same thing we mentioned, football players and others, they were not getting paid what they deserved until they came together and said, No, you are going to pay us what we deserve because we, you know, we shouldn't be getting 1% of this pool when we are 99% of the attraction. Now, I'm not saying that's the same thing for TV writers. Obviously, we're a much bigger ecosystem, but you know, you you you then segued your career to working, you know, not working, volunteering to be on our WGA board. Uh and and as a board member, but also as a TV writer, as you, you know, you shared on Twitter the truth, the reality. I Liz Opera, I'm one of you. I am struggling right now with the majority of TV writers out there. Uh, what keeps you up at night, Liz? Like about your career or about just Hollywood in general? Because you said you are, you know, losing beginning to lose sleep.

SPEAKER_03 37:41

Yeah, I mean, I I lose, I lose a lot of sleep. I will say, uh my my poor boyfriend um just discovered recently uh that I don't get paid to be on the board and you know it's a volunteer position, which he wasn't he didn't realize because he was saying they're going, like, all you ever do is board shit. Why aren't they paying you? I was like, that's not that's not what they do. Like, this is a volunteer position. This is this is what you volunteer for. If you start to pay for it, it becomes kind of a a corrupt thing. And for him, he just kind of sat there going, like, yeah, but what the fuck, man? I I just kind of had to laugh. I was like, this is this is the only way that any of us are actually going to be able to help out and help each other is is if there's no monetary value to it, because Hollywood already doesn't want to cough up any money. Um, but I think the big thing that keeps me up at night, quite honestly, is is knowing how many people out there right now um are going through the same thing that I am. And the fact that our our industry is changing to a place where we all will be part-time work. You know, we we're looked at as automatons, not as human beings, not as people anymore, not as employees. We're looked at as um what's oh what's the word? I'm trying to cogs and a wheel. Not not even kind of, yeah. Cogs and a wheel. Like what happens? Oh, products. We're the products. You know what I mean? Like, unless you're a big name, you're you can't hope for a decent payday. You know, at the very you know, I think a lot of the industry, um a lot of our employers are looking for, you know, loops, loopholes in order to keep the cost of hiring people low, in order to keep the cost of labor low, um, but to make sure that, you know, it's it's low risk, high reward, if that makes sense. Um and I think the thing that keeps me up at night is knowing that I don't know if I'll be able to have a career in Hollywood. You know, I think the thing that keeps me up at night is knowing that I would love to be a long-term writer. I would love to be able to be doing this well into my 70s. And financially, I don't think that's ever going to be possible. Um, the thing that honestly keeps me up at night, if I'm being completely frank, is holy shit, am I going to be able to pay for my apartment or am I going to have to figure out, you know, how to move to another city that's going to be much, much cheaper because I have a dog and I have a cat. And keeping them, you know, cooped up, if I need to move into a studio in, you know, Los Angeles, it's going to be a nightmare for them. So for the same amount of rent that I can pay for a studio, because by the way, a studio in Los Angeles is probably going for like $1,500, $16,000, $1,700 a month.

unknown 41:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:03

Uh if you're lucky. If I move to a place that's maybe two hours away from Los Angeles, but I can have enough space so that my 35-pound dog isn't, you know, crawling out of his fur, her fur. Is that the thing that I need to do? And so a lot of the things that keep me up at night are honestly, what am I going to be doing in the future? If I get a job right now, am I going to be, is it going to be hand to mouth again? Am I going to be able to pay off my debts? A lot of things that keep me up is that I pay for uh a lot of the pay up Hollywood stuff. It's all paid for out of pocket. Um, if I don't get a job, am I going to be able to afford that? Like, can I can I figure out how to get you know money uh to pay for a lot of the grassroots stuff that I do? And that's, I mean, that's kind of a privilege thing, but it's also a nice distraction to distract myself from the fact that, like, oh, maybe, maybe I won't be able to pay for rent in three months. I'm gonna have to figure out like how to sell all of my furniture um and and drive back to Rhode Island and like work remotely for the rest of my life.

SPEAKER_01 42:12

Um makes a ton of sense. We've all we I think that that's a universal uh feeding your family, feeding your animals. Um this all, you know, and you've been you've been, you know, you're kind of in a kind of an interesting position to answer this question right now, too, because it's it's a hard business. And the final question that we ask um all of our the guests that come on here is what is one piece of advice that you would give somebody trying to get into this industry in our case, in your case, a TB writer.

SPEAKER_03 42:42

Um okay, so I think and and just kind of going along in line of everything that we've said, there's a really wonderful Brene Brown TED talk about shame. And one of the lines that she says is empathy is the antidote to shame. Uh, if you put shame in a petri dish, it needs, I think, silence and two other things I can't remember to survive. But if you douse it in empathy, it can't hope to thrive. Um, and that's the one thing that I would encourage every TV writer to hold is empathy. Because I think if we're able to hold that, we're going to allow for a space for people to speak on how it is, how they feel not being able to work. And I think the importance there is that we're going to have people who can speak to what they're going through. And we're going to see that many, many, many of our peers are going through the same thing. And once we remove the shame out of the equation, we can actually start to work on the problem. Because really, what it is is that we all have and all are sharing a similar set of problems. And that can't be solved if no one else knows that it's happening. The moment you remove shame, you remove shame, all of a sudden, you can just focus on the problem and focus on finding those solutions. And so by doing that, we might be able to tackle a lot of the issues that we're facing in the industry because we're actually going to be able to give voice to those issues. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:28

That was that was that was Dan is processing.

SPEAKER_03 44:31

Uh yeah. It's actually real, I'm really, really surprised because I listen to the podcast all the time, and Dan talks a lot and is always like, Noah never speaks, he's the silent host. So now I'm sitting there going, like, Dan, where are you, my man? Like, say something.

SPEAKER_00 44:50

Yeah, no, this is what this is what no, no and I talk about this a lot. No one's in the industry, and this is very much an industry, industry version of the podcast.

SPEAKER_03 44:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:00

I I'm here for the funny stories. Um, no one's here for the like how does one make a living? So that explains it. Uh, but look, Liz Alper, thank you very much for for joining us and being part of the podcast and sharing your story.

SPEAKER_03 45:13

Yeah, thank you guys so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 45:16

Thank you, Liz.

SPEAKER_01 45:19

And that's a wrap on this episode of Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss. As always, we want to thank James Launch for the amazing theme music.

SPEAKER_00 45:28

Before we sort of thank our wives and stuff, do you think anyone actually listens this far, or do they stop when the music comes back in?

SPEAKER_01 45:34

I think they normally stop after you mention your second and third podcast. That'll be my guess. Well, I haven't mentioned them yet on that one. Uh if you do want to reach out with us to us for criticisms, complaints, or praise, uh, you can either reach out to us through the website, or I am at nebslin on Twitter and Dan. Do you have an account?

SPEAKER_00 45:53

Not that anyone really cares about, so if you've got complaints about the show, go to NEbslin and feel free to air those. If you have praise or you want to pay us in some way for something, come to at Dan Rutstein. And have a great day.