Take 80 - Producer, Development Executive Alex Hedlund, Great Wall

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for shore, dozens of unproduced script littering.

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All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

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This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is like everything in a business here and I'm gonna be able to do it.

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Screaming into the Hollywood Abyss is brought to you by Scriptation. The Emmy Emmy.

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It sounds awful when you say it. Let somebody with a more charming accent do this bit. Screaming into the Hollywood Abyss is brought to you by Scriptation, the Emmy Award winning app for anyone that reads scripts, makes notes, organise them into layers, and save hours of time by automatically transferring those notes into new script revisions. Stiffer listeners can get a free month of scriptation by going to scriptation.com backslash stiffer. Now that's how you do it, Noah. Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

I'm excited to introduce development executive Alex Hedley. Alex has worked at such places as Warner Brothers, Stars Road Entertainment before becoming the VP of Creative Affairs and Production at Legendary Entertainment. Alex followed that with a brief stint at Archie Comics. Currently, he is the head of development at Eat the Cat and has helped Shepherd such projects as Chucky, Candy, Brand New Cherry Flavor, and a Friend of the Family. Welcome, Alex.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Thank you. Thank you. I'm a big fan. Honor to be here.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

So I don't want to be unfair because obviously the part before we start recording is obviously off the record. But you did make the mistake of saying, oh, I've got loads of stories of rejection and failure to share. So I'm trying to think where the best place to start is, but given you have lots of stories, why don't you just start with whatever story first came to mind when it when you first agreed to come on this podcast, knowing that you are a regular listener?

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Yeah, well, I mean, it's like where to begin, right? Just running through the the you know copious amounts of of rejection and you know failed projects and things that just don't work out because that's just the sort of nature of the business. Um I think maybe the most public failure that I would speak to, probably, you know, the one that comes to mind is is a project that I was involved in um a couple of years ago called The Great Wall. And this is a it's a tricky one because I wasn't a part of the development of the movie. Um, you know, I was working, I was working on other things, and um my boss came to me at the time and said, hey, we're we're gonna roll cameras on this movie in two months. Um you know, I need somebody to be embedded in China. I know you don't, you know, you're not familiar with the project enough, but will you go? And you know, for anybody that, you know, oftentimes I should say this as an executive, where you're sort of also functioning in a producorial capacity, you really don't have like a say on the projects that you're working on every single time. You can obviously have interests, you can champion things. And truly, there's nothing better than you know, finding a script or a book and something that you're really passionate about and something that really aligns with the values of the company. But again, if it's somebody else's money, it's somebody else's company. Again, as much as the boss was saying, you know, kind of making this like an invitation or more of an offering, it wasn't assessing, it wasn't a mandate. But, you know, I sort of sort of felt like I need to be the good soldier. And and at the time, there were a lot of intriguing things for me, right? It was it was uh Matt Damon starring, uh, who I'm a huge fan of. And it was uh Zhenggi Mu was just just an incredible filmmaker, and it was gonna be this really vanguard project of the sort of eats meet East Meets West uh sensibility. And it was gonna be this, you know, $150 million tent pole movie, and it just had a lot of things that I just knew I was never gonna get this kind of opportunity again. And so, of course, like any great failure, you first ask, well, what could possibly go wrong? Um, so and and and look, I I should sort of also preface this by saying, like, you know, at the time, just to kind of put things in context, this is early 2015. This is still in the middle of a moment where like everybody was trying to crack the Chinese market in Hollywood. So it was like a big initiative to figure out how to put Chinese talent in movies or how to have some kind of Chinese element so that your movie, right, that would be made here for a domestic audience could also play overseas and into China, which was a huge market. Um, I had worked on another movie uh at Legendary called Pacific Rim that we were very proud of. And, you know, that was an original piece of IP, so to speak. It wasn't based on anything previously. And I think it grossed more than $400 million worldwide, and a hundred of that was in China. So you sort of look at the math and say, okay, well, there's a lot of tickets to sell there. How can, you know, how can we really sort of try to maximize that? And and again, that was that wasn't just legendary. They had an offshoot that was called Legendary East, but that was again, that was all of Hollywood, right? Um, I think things are a little bit different now. Um, and I don't want to say that this project ruined that, but I certainly think it didn't help. Um I think very early on, so so I so I agreed to go, right? I just gotten, I was like six months into my um, I married my wife, and suddenly I was like, see you later. I'm gonna go to, I'm gonna go to Beijing for six months. And um didn't speak the language, which I think was, you know, which was tough. And there were translators everywhere because a lot of the you know, the crew that we brought over there um also didn't speak the language. So everything, everything had to be sort of filtered by two or three different people and then back. So you can imagine that the communication on a movie set is so critical and and delicate. And just imagine when you have to do that through the the game of telephone, so to speak. Um so that I think that was that was just like the a huge barrier for entry. Um I think it was also challenging of being sort of put onto uh a project, right? Something that, like, if if there's something that you champion, right? If there's a script that you find and you're like, I, you know, here's the vision for it. I'm gonna go get this filmmaker, I'm gonna put this together, I'm gonna take it to this buyer. There's a level of ownership. And like any kind of parent, you have a tremendous amount of care and consideration, and you kind of want to, you know, sort of see the child grow up and teach it the right life lessons, do all those things. It's harder to sort of be dropped into something where, you know, to sort of continue that analogy. This kid was already ready to go to college, right? And this kid probably like had probably done some stints in boarding school. Like it was definitely something that was going to be a little bit tricky as like a just an offering, but again, it was this giant, you know, tentpole of an idea. And and that concept was this idea of that the great wall was really built built to keep out monsters, which is kind of a cool genre idea. And it's sort of one that you kind of either buy into or you don't. Um, clearly, a lot of people didn't buy into it. And my first indication of that was when I'd be over there and I would be, you know, I would meet a lot of people and I would just, you know, sort of talk to people. Um, and when they would ask me what I was working on, I would kind of tell them about it and tell them the concept, and they're like, I don't understand, or I don't like that. Like just it, so it was like, oh my God, there's a failure to launch in terms of just the conceptual buy-in. Um, you know, it'd be it'd be the equivalent of like, you know, oh, you know, there's monsters in the Hollywood sign, and you'd be like, I'm not, I'm not interested in that. So um that I think that was that was a sort of a tough pill to swallow when you're you know over there trying to affect change and sort of wrangle this sort of seemingly untenable uh uh project. And ultimately, you know, the people who are you know seemingly supposed to be the first in line for this are like, no, no, we're gonna reject that idea. So I think that was that was sort of the one of the first red flags for me. Um and by the way, just to sort of kind of Tarantino this story a little bit, you know, cut to a year and a half later, I'm sitting in a marketing meeting. The movie is essentially done. And we're going through um the poster and the trailer, and weirdly, there was something, there was something off about the setup, and it just didn't make sense and it wasn't telling the story. And so I had to sort of say, and that there's all this bickering, and it was one of those meetings where everybody's sitting around a conference table and you know, sort of, you know, talking, what about this? What about this? And going through all the, you know, well, the data says this and the analytics say this. And and I just said, guys, I think that we're kind of missing the point here. The whole conceit of this movie is that this is a, you know, this is a story about the Great Wall being built to keep out monsters, right? That was the whole concept, right? That was the kernel of the idea that sort of set this off. And I was told by an executive um from the sort of like the Eastern contingency that, like, we can't say that. Like, what do you mean you can't say that? Like, well, everybody knows in China that the Great Wall wasn't built to keep out monsters, so you can't say that. And I was like, oh my God, that's like saying uh Bruce Wayne, you know, puts on puts on a costume and he fights crime at night, but you can't call it Batman. It was it was like this total uh, you know, moment where I just like sunk in my seat and thought, oh my God, like we've really gone this far. And it's what was really sort of wild to me, and again, I'm sure that anybody listening to this is be like, what the fuck? And it's like, yeah, you're sitting, I'm sitting in that meeting saying, What the fuck? That like you know, this project has been developed for maybe six years or so, um, you know, previous to this iteration. And how come nobody ever had this conversation before? Or if somebody had this conversation before, nobody took it to heart. Because if you if you were to tell somebody, you you're gonna have a hard time marketing the concept of your movie. I feel like a lot of people would say, Well, we're not gonna make that movie then. So it was really tough to then sort of try to like pivot around and sort of say, well, it's kind of this mythology or one tale could be, which is sort of this way of kind of beating around the bush and just not being direct. Um, and ultimately, I don't think it would make a difference because it was just it didn't quite obviously the movie didn't work. Um and, you know, I think audiences, domestic audiences rejected it because they were like, you know, it's this, you know, I mean, there were there were a lot of reasons to reject it. I won't I won't sort of go into the laundry list, but it was rejected here. But was I think what was more crippling was this idea that it wasn't embraced in China either, and that there was sort of this not only just rejection of concept, but the whole idea where it sort of felt like, you know, we're just gonna stack the stack the deck with a who's who of Chinese talent to try to like sell some tickets. And I think that that was one of the reasons that people um, you know, people didn't go see the movie and to sort of add insult to injury. Um, the Chinese version of the Razzies is called the Golden Broom Awards. This is true story, right? And our the Great Wall won most disappointing, which is like such a fatherly way of sort of, you know, rejecting or being angry. It's like movie wasn't bad, just really disappointing, most disappointing, which I think is kind of funny. Um, but it was this weird, it was a weird moment in my life where I I wouldn't, I wouldn't take it back because again, I learned so much because everything was a disaster. Like nothing, nothing was nothing was clicking, everything was sort of in it. And and I certainly had some Stockholm syndrome where I, you know, could sort of try to lie to myself or like try to affect change and make sure that, you know, you're even though it's like I didn't generate it, I was still willing to try to do everything to make sure that it was as good as it could be. Um, but look, that's a hard position to be when you're, you know, when you're you're not the parent, you're the uncle. And then you, you know, you leave at the end of the day. Um, but then you have to kind of stick around. And yeah, it was it was one of those where you're gonna always learn more on the projects that are troubled and that need, you know, triage rather than if if everybody, if it's the happy village and you know, you're two takes and great, we're done, and we get to go home early. Like that's that's amazing. And I hope to work on something that is, you know, as sort of smooth as that one day. But certainly earlier in my career, um, I learned a lot of miss examples and missteps. And um yeah, I mean, it's painful. I haven't I haven't really ever gone on the record um and sort of said it publicly. I've sort of said it privately. Um, but uh yeah, it was just a it was like a weird genre mashup with that I'm sure is probably a stoner's delight if you were to watch it uh a little bit inebriated. But as just like a movie, it's just this I think which is the worst thing possible, which is just a movie for no one, right? That it's just a movie that's it's trying to appeal to everybody, and as a result, it appeals to nobody. And I think that's that's tough when you're you know, you're you're away from home and you're like up at night writing notes or you know, putting notes together on cuts or on conference calls, and you know, two and a half years of your life go by, and then you know, the movie comes out and and you know it doesn't gross very much and it's panned, that's like a that's a that's a tough, that's a tough place to sort of reconcile, or what do I do next? And as a result, um, because that whole process, you like even in post, like we were constantly just working for a D plus, right? Like an A is off the table. Maybe some people will think this is a B, but like really like you're kind of a C student, and like no matter what you do, it's always going to be like just like almost like just above passing, right? And that's the best you can do. Um, and that was sort of something that again, as a good experience and as a resume builder, I was like, well, at least I have I have that experience that I can speak to. Um, but it was funny, like meeting on other jobs or talking to other people afterwards. Um, you know, it was like a scarlet letter. It was this blemish on my permanent record, and it was like, ugh. And again, that movie wasn't so big that it wasn't like this, you know, it wasn't like a benchmark of like a bomb. Like it wasn't a movie that like people kind of make fun of in a sort of a larger sense. It doesn't sort of reach that level, but it was just like this quiet, like quietly died is just like this cynical experiment that just didn't didn't necessarily work. Um but uh yeah, but this is great therapy. So thanks, guys.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

Well, I have that's an amazing story. I have a couple comments and a question, a follow-up question. Um comment um number one is this is the first time I've actually ever heard that the wall was about keeping monsters out. I did not know, I didn't see the movie, I did not know what that was about. I heard that there's a different controversy, obviously, about casting and whatever that I heard and and I didn't see it. That sounded like a great concept, which leads into my second comment, which is I you know, I have a master's in Eastern classic literature and I studied Chinese history. I don't think our audience knows this. And um, there was a crazy mixture of supernatural in the Chinese, ancient Chinese history. So I thought for sure, of any culture to buy into something like this that maybe the Chinese culture would be would have been more open historically to adding supernatural. Uh but let's let me lead in my question and then answer any way you want is is simple question based on those two comments and your story. Were you blamed?

SPEAKER_01 17:48

Um, I I don't think the finger was pointed at me directly, but look, I'm a I have a producing credit on that movie. So like I mean, I I I I will own that failure, right? I I wouldn't say like, you know, uh I understand why the movie was made, and and I'm sure that other people, you know, some some different iteration would have done the same thing. So, you know, it really it was a group effort. Uh it's like the the coach at the end of the game, you're just like, you know, it took all of us to lose this one. Um, but uh it wasn't like sort of firmly planted on me. Although I will say, you know, as as somebody that like kind of was there like throughout the entire process, I was always sort of the person, because a lot of people either left the company or or moved on to other projects. I was always the one that was someone's like, why is that in the movie? Or why has this happened? Or who made that decision? And a lot of it, you know, I had to sort of go into and be a little bit of the messenger. So there was some survivor's uh guilt when it came to that. Um, but you know, I there was no way to sort of shy away from it. It was like, you know, it's it's on my MDB. Like you Google it. I think it's like the first thing if you Google me, it's like, oh God, Great Wall comes up. Is that what I'm gonna be known for? Um, but uh yeah, oh, you had another question.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

No, that was that I don't uh uh Dan has a follow-up question.

SPEAKER_02 19:15

No, that that was uh so it's interesting you say that. So uh we had Jeffrey Lieber on this podcast uh last season, and he fascinatingly said he had to go into therapy because he was he did the Lost Pilot and then had nothing to do with the rest of the series as it went on multiple episodes, and he kept finding himself having to explain it to people and ended up sort of going into therapy because it was this whole thing where every time he met anybody, he was like, Oh, you worked on lost. He's like, Yes, I worked on lost, but then and had to sort of explain what exactly happened. So with this, do you obviously, you know, you gave a very full answer to the question about your biggest failure. When you when you meet people, and maybe in in this world they look at your IMDB and they're like, Oh, didn't you work on Great Wall? Do you give them the whole story every time because you feel like you have to explain why you were attached to it, but it wasn't your fault? Or do you be like, Well, I did this and it was a bit of a disaster, but anyway, let me tell you about these amazing things that I have worked on instead.

SPEAKER_01 20:14

Yeah, I mean, I'm I'm sort of at a point now where enough time has passed that it it doesn't come up regularly. Um, you know, it was hard a couple of years ago when they're like, hey, what was your last project? And you're like, yeah, I did this Matt Damon movie. And they're like, oh, awesome, I love Matt Damon. Yeah, what was it? And you're like, oh, was it born? No, it wasn't. It was, you know, it's moving great wall. Like, you know, it's like it's easier now, and enough time has passed where I feel like I'm open about it. But it was, you know, it was hard. It was like this, it was this thing that you couldn't escape. And it's very, it's obviously as like a producer or as an ex an executive, like you're kind of only known for your what whatever your latest project is, right? And so, you know, when I was interviewing for other jobs or meeting with people, and they're like, oh, so what did you work on this year? You know, it's like the conversation obviously has to naturally um, you know, touch upon that. But you know, I sort of used it as a means of sort of just jumping off and sort of talking about like what I learned, because I think if you if you only focus on the negative and not what you took away from it, then it is a total failure. So maybe in a weird way, I just sort of talked myself into that it was a personal success. Um, or at least I'll lie to myself and say that. But but it, you know, certainly with everything that it had going for it, um yeah, I just uh I don't know. I'm just rambling now. I don't know how to articulate it, but it it is something that like, you know, I don't I don't talk about it enough because I think I will certainly say this to sort of cap it is that for people who are outside of Hollywood that sort of don't understand that like you may work on something that is not your choice, or you're involved with something for a political reason, or because that's the Paycheck, right? And that's what you're supposed to do. I think it's it's harder to sort of reconcile or sort of defend why something is the way that it is. Or, you know, if a movie or a TV show comes out and doesn't work, you know, your name's on there or you're associated with it because of the company. That's a that's kind of hard to shake off that um, you know, that that that that shadow is going to follow you. Um so it's it's so I guess it just it just depends. But uh I just I don't bring it up um often and put it that way.

SPEAKER_02 22:32

So so let's talk because one you've mentioned a couple of times, you know, the fact you had no choice. So let's talk about when you do have a choice, because obviously we know from other guests often people don't have a choice about what they work on, but you do reach a certain point in your career where you start being in a place where actually you can start to pick and choose a bit more about what you do work on and why you work on it. So tell us about a couple of projects, and they don't even, I'll make an exception here, they don't even necessarily need to be failures, but tell us about a couple of projects that you've worked on which have really been yours and that you've owned and been a real part of and cared about in a way that maybe you didn't about that one.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

Sure, sure. Well, I think that, I mean, obviously my time at Legendary, um, I've I value that. I was there for six years, and you know, there being, you know, more of like kind of a studio executive or a producer with their, but it's a big corporation, so you're obviously more of a maybe say a cog in the machine, so to speak. Whereas after um after Legendary, I was really looking to transition into something where it I felt like working on working at the studio level, it was like being on an aircraft carrier and trying to get anything done or you know, just walk from you know one end to the other, um, try to affect change on something, try to, you know, pitch something or be passionate. It was it was just very tough because it was obviously a bigger corporate agenda and and you know, my time there at the end, it was there was a lot of things that were going on. Um, but I knew when I was transitioning out, I did not want to replicate that experience and simply just go to um, you know, another studio and sort of do the same thing where you're sort of mining IP or or playing the heat-seeking game of like whatever's you know, sort of uh you know fashionable for that week and um and sort of dining out on those sort of things. I I really felt like I wanted to go to something more, you know, more bespoke or or really build something from the ground up. And um, you know, I had um I had met Nick Antosca um a couple years back um earlier. I'd read a pilot of his that I really enjoyed. And um, you know, we just met in a general meeting and and really kind of connected in terms of like taste and point of view and interests and and influences. And I probably spent maybe like six months sending him things, you know, but I got this manuscript before anybody else. Do you want to adapt this? Um and it was either, you know, graciously, you know, a quick no, or he was too busy. Um, and then we sort of uh, you know, kind of went our separate ways, but then reconnected um almost four years ago when I heard he wanted to start a company. Um, so it was this moment in time where it was like, oh, our values are aligned, we see the world in the same way in terms of like not just like going after things for uh projects for political reasons or doing the heat seeking thing, or not just like something for IP just because it's IP and there's brand awareness and all those sorts of things. Um this is a long-winded answer. Basically, saying like one of the first things that that we I had um sort of built up together um is finally coming out next month. Uh, it's a limited series for Peacock called The Friend of the Family. And I think, like a lot of people, we came into it in the um uh through the documentary, Abducted in Plain Sight, and and Nick had seen it, he had been recommended it. He was he was just posting the act, which was about to come out on Hulu. And he saw this, and I think he was a little reticent at first, and then was sort of thinking about it and had read Jan and Marianne's book, Stolen Innocence, and thought, okay, I can definitely see a show here. And so I was like, all right, I gotta figure out how to get to Jan Broberg. And so I like did like an old school, like I made a list and tried to figure out like every single phone number or email address. And like I probably called like 50 different people, and there's a lot of Brobergs in in the world. So it was just like, you know, right dialing a number, you know, disconnected, all right, cross it off. It was like that that classic like movie montage of just like picking up the phone, and it took me two full days, and finally I found her and come to find out, you know, she is talking to other producers. And, you know, that this is like the height of the documentary, and she's on the talk show circuit. So there's a lot of sharks in the water, so to speak. And so um, you know, that was one of those moments where, you know, I gave her a little bit of a kind of a soft pitch because I didn't want to come on too strong. But, you know, I just felt I felt so passionately about that story, and especially, and as much as I like the documentary, it's you don't get the full picture of what that family went through in 90 minutes. And I think that was really the that was really the opportunity that I was pitching, is just that there is there is more to tell from the family's point of view that we can tell over many hours here. And and obviously having my my partner Nick being a very seasoned writer and showrunner, um, you know, certainly was, you know, was undeniable. Um, and again, the act hadn't even come out yet. So, but it was still, you know, we were one of many. And um, you know, after about a year of conversations and business affairs and false starts, um, we finally were able to link arms with her and uh and her mother. And um, long story short, the show is coming out next month and it's fantastic. But that's one that um I'm I'm really proud of because it was something that Nick had identified, Nick was passionate about. I was like, all right, let me go find Jan, let me bring it in. And um, you know, it was such a team effort with and everybody else all down the line in terms of our directors and actors and everybody, and and making sure that Jan and her mother were involved as producers on the project too. And I think offering a level of transparency and um and communication at every step of the way. You know, here's you know, here's a first draft of the script, here's here's a first cut, we want to know what you think. Um, really bringing them into the process so they they felt like they had a voice at the table. And obviously we wanted that authenticity. But I think that so often a lot of these true stories go sideways because you know, they try to keep the creators or the the real people at an arm's length. And and certainly I can understand for certain stories why there may be a reason to do so. But I think on something like this, which is such a it's such an important story, you want to get it right. And you don't want to do the sketchpad version and you don't want to glorify anything. Um, and obviously we're trying to do things, and it's a tough subject matter. It's it's kidnapping and abuse. Um, you know, you want to do those things in a very delicate and artful manner. Um, and I think just I'm I'm really proud that that Jan is happy with with the end product. I think regardless of anything else, I think that's what's really um that's what I'm I'm proud of, is that like, you know, we were able to kind of do justice for her and her story.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

I I wanna I want to circle back to something that that you said earlier that's been pinging around in my head because it's great advice. And I want to ask an unrelated question. Uh you had said, talking about the Great Wall, about how you would pivot into the things you learn from the project in these meetings and how you would give that as your answer, not how horrible it was, but the things that you learned. And I thought that was such a valuable piece of advice to people who are writers or otherwise who have coming off a project or working with a showrunner who you don't want to badmouth, you don't, you know, you it's not a good look to badmouth project, you don't know what to say in these moments when they ask about a project that went sideways. Saying what you learn from it is a great way to, and I just filed that away as in my own head as a as a you know piece of advice to use in that same situation. Um, but my question is about actually, you know, your role as a development exec, uh, working with writers, having to give notes, having to tell note, say no, having to break parts. I mean, because writers get their egos not in a bad way, wrapped up in the stuff they're working on. And then suddenly someone like you uh comes in and says, it's not working, and you got to say it very delicately and you got to figure it out. Do you have any sort of horror stories from you know working with writers, or do you have any suggested practices? How does that how do you deal with sort of these hard situations to navigate sometimes?

SPEAKER_01 31:16

Sure, sure. I mean, well, every project is different, right? So the the version where me coming into a script that is already fully written and it is prepping and that like is ready to you know roll cameras on, there's there's not that much to be done at that point, right? Um, versus something that comes into me totally cold in my inbox and I read it and love it or or see some potential in it, there's a greater opportunity there to have a conversation and effect some change. Um, and I think that the probably the greatest piece of advice I would say for anybody, whether you're a producer or you're an executive or you're just somebody that is, you know, reading something for feedback is ask questions. You know, you I think there's certain uh, you know, it's really easy to jump to a judgment, or if there's a confusion uh in the script or there's something that's not quite working, it's so easy to be dismissive. And I always sort of came up learning or or kind of with the understanding that like a producer needs to look for every reason to say yes. So again, I think that can go astray because you can sort of talk yourself into certain things. But when it comes to I think feedback or notes, uh you know, I think context is everything. And I think just being able to sort of understand intention. And I think so so often people just like, you know, like an executive will just like churn out a set of notes, right? And just fire those off. And it's just like, you know, make this better and do this. And there's no sort of bedside manner, um, and there's no um, there's no sort of care uh or conversation. And and sometimes it's like, you know, I'm sure that uh I could probably think of a situation where like I, you know, misunderstood something, and so I I jumped to a conclusion that ultimately was not the intention on the page, and by recalibrating something that sort of brought clarity, and then I was able to see it in a different light. But I think, you know, before you, you know, write any notes or send anything or or give anything that could be perceived as draconian, because I always look at notes as a smoking gun, right? Like once you write those notes and you email those to somebody, like that's out there, right? And and if you're not willing to stand behind it, that's a tough position to be in because you know, if a writer's like, what'd you mean when you say this? Oh, I didn't mean that. Well, it says right here, you said X, Y, and Z, you said make the character more likable. And you're like, ooh, okay. Well, it's hard to, you know, it's it's hard to it's hard to walk that back. And I think so often if people just were willing to have like a conversation um more often, even if it's something casual, it doesn't have to be sort of in a like a you know, producer writer, like OWA type of situation. I think just, you know, kind of talking through like why somebody made a certain decision, um, especially if it's a spec and you know, this is a new writer that you haven't worked with before, um, and maybe they don't have a proven track record. I think it's really helpful to sort of, you know, kind of create a dialogue and really, you know, sort of understand more about them as well as the process. Because again, so much of this business is just about chemistry and relationships, given that, like, again, going back to the thesis statement of the show, like, you know, we have everybody has so many more failures or unproduced scripts or projects or things that, you know, you thought were gonna go and then get taken behind the barn and shot, and suddenly, you know, you have to sort of be able to talk about those things. And and I think it's so important to just sort of, you know, really make sure that those relationships are are intact and that you're you know trying to be as respectful and communicative as pro as possible.

SPEAKER_02 35:13

So you actually already moved into the sort of giving advice stage of the podcast, which is uh because unfortunately we've reached the final question, which is if you could give a single piece of advice to somebody wanting to enter the industry, what would it be?

SPEAKER_01 35:30

Uh somebody trying to enter the industry?

SPEAKER_02 35:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

I would say and this is this is gonna be uh this is gonna sound super simple, but I think for anybody, if it if you're a writer or a director or an actor, I think just tell people who you are and what you want to do. Um I I you know I have I take so many meetings or or have people reach out to me, hey, family friend, will you, you know, give some advice or whatnot. And you know, I remember being in in in their shoes too, because I moved out here 16 years ago. I didn't know a single person in Hollywood. And it was sort of like, you know, how can I sort of claw my way into you know a general meeting or or talk to people? And I think you almost have to have your, you've got to have your pattern down. And I think the that people are inclined to help other people or, you know, because you never know, right? I think always be nice to people. You never know, like that that assistant that it's getting you coffee will be, you know, your boss someday. And I think that people oftentimes they go wrong because they're like, oh, I'm in the room and you know, I'm talking about a script, so therefore I'm a writer and they're gonna help me. But I think you got to tell people, you know, who you are and like why you're doing this and why you're passionate about it. And so if you're a writer, it's like, you know, talk about your influences and what you're working on and you know, hopefully maintain that relationship so that you can send them that script when it's when it's really ready. Um, but I think just got to make it easy for people and give them that little, like that little subtitle of like what you're going to do, because I think that is gonna help them help you and sort of create a little bit more of a like there'll be some resonance there. So that you know, three months later, they're like, hey, we need to hire an assistant. I like that kid. We should, you know, we should bring that person in. Um, or you know what, that that writer had those great ideas and they really love this, you know, thematic. Let's see if they can spark, they let's see if they spark to that. And I think so many people who are coming in are just like, and again, I think coming into Hollywood, it's like you could do so many different things. So I think it's really helpful to say and be as specific as possible. Like, you know, I want to go work at an agency or I, you know, I'm trying to be a screenwriter, uh, you know, I want to get staffed on, you know, this TV show. It's like, oh, that's very specific and it may not happen, but it's like, oh, being able to say that you want to staff, all right. So I know exactly what your intention is. And the show that you're pitching me, or at least talking about, ideally gives me some understanding of your taste. So that way I'm like, oh, well, you know, that show is full, but you know what, you should meet the showrunner or an executive who's working on this instead. Um, so I think, you know, again, that maybe that's too general of an answer, but I think that sometimes like the like as simple as possible, especially when you're meeting people for coffee, and it's like, all right, how can I make a lasting impression on like this sort of you know, first date, so to speak, that, you know, because the goal is like, I'm meeting this person, I need their help. You know, I need a job, I want them to, you know, connect me to this person, I want them to introduce me to so and so. And I think that if you're if you're really specific and surgical with what your end goal is, it's just gonna make that that much easier.

SPEAKER_02 38:51

Absolutely. Very good. That's great. Look, uh, Alex Headland, producer of one of the most disappointing movies in in all of Chinese cinema history. Thank you very much for being part of the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 39:05

Thank you for having me. It's been good therapy.

SPEAKER_00 39:10

Well, that's a wrap on this episode of Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss. As always, it's been this episode was brought to you by Scriptation, the screen writing and annotation software that at the very least has made my life easier and will make your life easier as well. Uh, we'd like to thank our wives who put up with us recording these episodes in our offices and basements and closets and bathrooms and anywhere we can get a little space to record an interview. And of course, we want to thank James Launch who provided us with the great intro and outro music.

SPEAKER_02 39:42

Uh, if you want to find us on social media, you can find Noah at NEVSlin on Twitter, tweeting a variety of writer-based nonsense and uh some terrible puns and occasionally begging for sponsorship. Uh, if you want more refined tweets, mostly about football and whiskey, you can find me at Dan Rutstein. If you're interested in buying a copy of Scriptation, if you go to www.scriptation.com backslash sniffer S-I-T-H-A, you will receive a special discount. Thank you very much for listening. As always, we appreciate you. Uh please give us any feedback, mostly positive stuff about me, and we will see you next week.

SPEAKER_00 40:27

And if you do say a negative thing about Dan, there is a chance I might buy you a free copy of Scriptation. Boxing.