Take 133 - Producer Michael Costigan, Brokeback Mountain, Based on a True Story

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for shore, dozens of unproduced scripts littering the floor.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_03 0:20

For every success, there is months, sometimes even years, of painful failure.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default. That's the norm. You have to be able to persevere. That process takes care.

SPEAKER_04 0:46

And I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking like, well, that's it for me. I blew my one big shot. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_03 1:05

Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry, brought to you by the Emmy Award-winning annotation software Scriptation. As ever, I am Dan Rutstein, your non-entertainment co-host.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

And I am you're still in the entertainment business, co-host Noah Eveslin. For this week's podcast, I'm thrilled to introduce film and TV producer Michael Costigan to the show. Michael worked as a production executive at Sony Pictures before becoming the president of Scott Free Productions. He is currently working as a partner at Aggregate Films, which was founded by Jason Bateman. Over the course of his career, Michael has produced or helped produce such well-known films as Brokeback Mountain, American Gangster, Robin Hood, The Taking of Pelum 123, Prometheus, Hitman, and many, many others, plus multiple TV series, including, but not limited to, The Outsider Under the Banner of Heaven, Based on a True Story. Just as a heads up, that Based on a True Story, season two is coming out on Peacock on November 21st. Welcome, Michael.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

Thanks for having me. Great to be here.

SPEAKER_03 2:12

So I think we're obviously going to talk about Based on a True Story, but I want to hear the true story of how you made your transition in a world where some people pick one or the other film through television. How you've worked on such extraordinary films that everybody will have heard of.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

Absolutely. Yeah, I have to be honest, I feel like my whole career has been a true accident from the very beginning, from being the world's worst assistant who was constantly getting fired. But I read scripts from my first boss at lunch who would take a nap. And so I'd read scripts and tell him what they were about so he could have his meetings in the afternoon, to being a studio executive who had never seen studio movies because in college I didn't have a car. So I'd seen every Almodovar movie, I'd seen every art house movie, but I had no idea. But the person who hired me at Sony was leaving for a couple weeks and I didn't realize that that four-week vacation was not a vacation. So then I started working at Sony. I had no idea what I was doing, continued on that path, and that was kind of the grad school. And then by the time I became a producer uh with Ridley and and and beloved Tony, um, you know, that was, I think, because I was the only person in Hollywood who wasn't meeting them for a job. I had this book that I was pounding the pavement with. And uh I remember when Ridley's agent said, uh, you know, yeah, you can talk to Ridley about the book. He has absolutely no interest, but you could talk to him. So I did, and I'm pitching my heart out. He says, Yeah, I'm not interested, but do you want to work here? And I said, I don't know. I'm why why do you want me to work here? And that was an eight-year uh partnership was really fun. But it was really film. And actually, my partner in crime there, uh, who's also an excellent television producer now, Michael Ellenberg, he and I were kind of running the film department, but that was when the world was you're a movie producer or you're a television producer. Um, when I left and started on my own, um, one of the first things I started in television was it was a movie that I saw at Sundance. And I want to know what happened next. And I thought, well, maybe that's a television show. What happens to this character at the end of the movie? And I remember telling the excellent writer director of the film, and then we thought, well, let's go talk to people. And we actually set up for television, and then I just thought, you know, you can tell this is clearly so well thought out, right? Like two knuckleheads walking in and having meetings and saying, I think, I think this could be a show. By the way, the show is about a sex offender. So you could tell what my taste was like at the moment, uh, or then and now, maybe, but thought, how interesting. What happens to her next? And then that became a show which years later we would make called The Teacher at FX. Um, but it was a very organic way because um I like to joke all the time when I'll be in a television meeting and they'll say, Oh, it's like this show and this show. And I have to admit, and and I'm not shy about a meeting, oh, I actually have never seen that. I don't know. I'm a movie guy. But what's been such a pleasure coming into television is the range of stories and being bold and mixing genres because as the world was changing, and in movies, what is it? Is it a this? Is it a comedy? Is it a drama? Is it a thriller? In television, you could say, well, it's actually all the above. And they didn't get scared. Whereas for a while in movies, they were terrified. So that brings us to this based on a true story. Uh, it's actually, it was created by an amazing movie writer who then himself moved on to do great television. Anyhow, long story short, you know, we said, well, what is it? Is it a thriller? Well, yeah. Is it a comedy? Absolutely. Is it true crime? Well, yes and no. And that's, I think, what I love about this show. And what I really love about television is I feel like creatively, and I've seen myself and other incredible producers who I see now working in television and movies and both, is I think you can be bold and kind of take off the handcuffs and and and really run with it.

SPEAKER_03 6:45

So I I know Noah's gonna wanna, he works in television and he's gonna have some television questions. But before he does, I I can't let you say that you were the world's worst assistant with us without asking a follow-up. So, how many times did you get fired at the very beginning of your career? And and for what sorts of things?

SPEAKER_02 7:02

Well, I I still in life when when when so the boss would come in and say, Who called? And I'd say, Ah, it's an agent. I can't remember his name. I think it was Tom. Uh, or then I remember when he asked me to find a script when we were having a hard time, like, yeah, I can't I can't find it, which I really couldn't because I was terrible. And then, of course, it was in the next room, and I should have actually gotten off my butt and looked for it. So, yeah, I was kind of terrible. But uh, there was a lot of good art in the office. I think I was more interested in that, like good artwork from his brother's gallery or uh or reading scripts, like that. That was actually a great education, like reading scripts because you know how to inform.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

We uh I just thinking back to my assistant days and all of the all of the same things that you went through. But I want to talk a little bit. We have a lot of writers on this podcast because I'm a writer in the TV industry, and so we've kind of given them a good groundwork for what a showrunner does in the world of television. But before we jump into some of the questions of some of the hardships that maybe you you went through in your career, uh let's let's set the groundwork a little bit for what a non-writing producer does on a television. What is your day-to-day and what is maybe the hardest things you face in your job?

SPEAKER_02 8:24

Yeah, that's a great question because honestly, it's something I had absolutely no idea when I got into TV. And I remember I do things and people would say, like, that you're not supposed to do that as a non-writing producer. I said, But isn't my job to get it made and like work hard with the writer and you know, etc. So, you know, it's a very nebulous uh title. So it really depends. I think in my world and in the aggregate world, and I I look, I'm lucky, I have a partner in crime in Jason Bateman, who's been doing a lot of great TV for a long time. So I get to also work with and see how he does it too at the same time. I think we feel like as an where we are, as an artist-driven company, we're there to really figure out support, hear both creatively or hear the dog whistle when a writer comes in who we know and we're friends with or somebody new who has a bold idea. And how can we help pull that off and pull it off in the way that that artist wants to pull it off? Meaning, is it a show? Is it a movie? Is it unscripted? We have a great unscripted department run by Emma Ho at Aggregate. Um where can you tell that story the way that you want to tell it? And then I think as a non-writing producer, you're making a pact, or at least we believe, I'm making a pact with that person that we're gonna do everything we can to get your show or movie made. And that means thinking about it, you know, working on scripts, asking all the questions you want to be asked or not asked, but always like putting on that kind of like Jedi mindset of we're going to figure out how to get this made, you know? And um, so we're very involved from the beginning in setting it up, very involved in the script stage. Um, before we would then go to a studio or network, uh, we get very involved in casting and helping cast something. Directors will really be there through production, post, really being there as a creative sounding board and also working side by side with a studio partner. Um, but I think seeing it, hearing it from the creative side of things and really being on the artist team to pull it off with them.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

I mean, without Does that make sense? I don't know. I don't know what I do. I can't even explain to my parents. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

I've worked with a lot of non-writing producers as well, and I think at best, that is the relationship that you describe. But my my question to you now is like without you don't have to name names, but our our our podcast lives and breathes in sort of stories that people bring to the show about like something that you've gone through, a hurdle in trying to get one either a movie or a TV show made that was like you know, the probably one of like the hardest log that ended up in a success for you.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

Boy, I've been waiting for this one. Thank you for asking. Well, look, they all are hard. There, it's I still think, and this is gonna sound funny maybe, but it's still a miracle when things get made. It really is. Everything has to line up. And I always think it's like back in the day of like going on bad dates. It's not just your timing, it's timing and figuring it out. But also, you know, when we get involved with stuff, you gotta really love it because it's gonna take at the soonest two years. So I really think the name of the game is at least for me, right? Everybody's different. You you have to see it. I when I get involved with something with someone, I see it. Like we are going to make it and we're gonna keep figuring it out. And that means sometimes success, not success, broke back mountain. You guys, there were so many times I got involved with Broke Back Mountain. I just left Sony. I had lunch with my favorite hilarious book agent in Hollywood who's four feet tall. Her name is Lynn Plachette. She's a legend. We had lunch. She always would order dessert. We go to Campanile, which sadly is not there. And we she'd always order dessert, and then she'd say, All right, let's split it. I'm like, Lynn, I'm broke. I don't know. I'm 32. I just left Sony. What am I doing with my life? And she said, Listen, here's what you're doing with your life. You got to read Broke Back Mountain. I said, Lynn, a gay cowboy movie. That is your suggestion for my career. And I said, uh, okay, sure. She says, so and so uh is so cheap, they won't give me five grand for an option, so it's free and clear. So I read the script, uh, and it broke me in half. I thought, I can't believe this movie exists and hasn't gotten made. I gave it to my girlfriend, now wife, and said, just read this. Tell me what you think. And she started sobbing. Came and said, What is this? So I called Lynn. I said, Well, how do I get involved? She said, Call Larry McMurtry and the amazing Diana Osana. I said, Wait, what do you mean, call them? She said, Here's their phone number. Don't be a wimp, call them. So I literally called them. Larry was a legend, didn't like talk on the phone. He said, Well, if you want to talk about it, come have lunch with me. All right, well, where? Well, there's a Mexican spot I love down the road, and he lived in Tucson. So I thought, well, what are to lose? Why not? And I went and I saw him and I saw Diana. And at the end of lunch, I said, Thank you for your passion for this. Let's do it. It was that was the easy part. It was years. I can't tell you how many incredible directors uh said, Oh, I can't do it because I'm a gay director and I don't want to get pigeonholed. One, my favorite one was a really good director who said, God, I feel like I'm eating at a sushi restaurant and I'm not Japanese. That was a good one. Uh nobody wanted to do it. And then literally, it just takes one. Aang Lee had read it years ago, and then decided he'd just done the Hulk, and it was terrible for him doing a huge movie where one of the, you know, with all of the trucks and Teamsters, and he would say, I had a smoothie truck. I had a truck on the set for smoothies. I can't make movies like that anymore. And he wanted to do Brokeback, and we made it. And truly, it was like one of those magical experiences you knew when we were making it, between Heath, who was the only, who was our first race, and the only person who wanted to do it. Truly. Nobody else. There were tons of articles I've saved, like, oh, playing gay, it'll ruin your career. Uh, you know, Jake, the same. Michelle Williams, who brilliant A.V. Coffin, the casting director, said you guys have to read her. We're like, wait, from Dawson's Creek, her? Anyway, she was brilliant. So it was one of those magical things. But that was literally, um, that was that was, yeah, that was a good five, six years to come together. And it had a life before me. Um, a teacher I mentioned before, everyone says, Oh, I like that show. Who else wanted to do it? Nobody, ha ha. Really? Nobody. You know, I have a lot of uh films and shows and things I've made, a bigger splash with Luca Guadanino, which was uh such a pleasure. Poor Luca. I mean, we were traveling around for years with that and meeting and getting close and then not, and then what are we doing? And Luca, one more time, and then I would say, Luca, could we ever make this out in the desert? He's like, I'm hanging up on you. And we would find a cast and went back to Italy. So I think, I think it's you gotta literally pick up the next day, um, you know, and uh like a line from To Die for a movie that I worked on as an executive that was getting dumped. We had a test screening in Santa Monica, and for the a lot of people listening to this podcast will know what like what's her score in the top two boxes? Our score is a 14 in the top two boxes, and the notes are I don't ever want to hear her voice again. And the amazing Laura Ziskin um said, you know what, we got to figure out what to do. And and uh the year before, Pulp Fiction got to Cannes. And it's Sony, people are like, What's can? Why would we ever go there? But our amazing boss at the time said, All right, let's give it a whirl. Went to Cannes, got a great response, and then it came out. It was going to be shelved if it didn't go to Cannes. So I just share all of this because all of those hard ones that, you know, that people just feel like it's uphill, uphill, uphill. Uh you just gotta like hang on to the bull. And uh, and it sounds easier now. It trust me, those were so hard, but they always are more gas in the gas tank of why if you see something you're really if you're into it, you gotta trust somebody else. It's gonna find its home.

SPEAKER_03 17:19

Yeah, I I don't like to take pleasure in other people's misery, but I really enjoyed that answer. I think for us that's sort of the whole point of this is you know, just reeling off project after project. This was hard, this was hard. And obviously, you end up making some extraordinary movies. Like I get maybe this question is too simplistic, but I'll try it anyway. As you said, it's a miracle anything ever gets made in Hollywood. It's is it more miraculous in film or more miraculous in TV that it comes together?

SPEAKER_02 17:51

That's a great question. I mean, I have an answer to that. I'm curious what your answer is to that, actually. What do you think?

SPEAKER_03 17:57

Well, so I'm not in the I'm not in the industry. I just sit on on the sides podcasting and I work in in the sports business. Noah's a writer, and he knows people who've done both. So see what Noah says while you cleverly buy time to think about it while no, I want to hear that my answer ready.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

My quick answer, and I'll tip it back to you, is that uh uh Hollywood goes through different movements and there's different times where different things are more difficult. We went through peak TV recently, and a lot of things were getting made, and now we're getting wall after wall after wall as the streamers consolidate and the networks rebrand themselves. And so TV has become very difficult. Where I feel like right now, at this second, there's a small opportunity for film and indie film in Netflix big streamers as they make a name for themselves. So maybe there's a slight grass that's slightly greener on the film side, slightly less green on the TV side, and then that three years go by and the whole thing flips again. So that's that's my answer. And they're they're both miracles, is the real answer.

SPEAKER_02 18:56

Yeah. I'm gonna second that. I I really, I really feel the same. Like it, if it ever feels strategic, let me just say it 100% is not. Um a show that we did last year that I'm that I'm really proud of, and the people involved from Bree Larison, who was my partner from the beginning, lessons in chemistry, um Apple, Michelle Lee, who was a champion from the beginning, Lee Eisenberg. That was a discovery. That was an incredible first novel by Bonnie Garmas. And that, you know, five, ten years ago would have absolutely been a film. There's no way that could be a film today. And I think it served the material because to tell that story over eight hours was was really like the was the fullest way to tell the story. But 10 years ago, I don't know that that would have gotten made because oh, well, what do you how does it return episode to episode? Spoiler alert, somebody important dies at the end of two. Then she's gonna get, has the big job, she gets fired. Like it doesn't have that, you know, old-fashioned or old school TV rhythm to it. But in today's terms, it could really work. I think we're shifting back again. I think there are the most exciting group of movies this year and last year in a way, because they happened very organically. I don't know if you've seen Emilia Perez, Anora. These are masterpieces. They're because they're original visions that people that really O'Tour filmmakers found. I really do feel hopeful about movies, about more movies. I think they're I you know, I'm I'm not shy to say if I don't think somebody exactly like has the passion or know what's going on. But I think there are actually some really good movie executives who've kind of like woken up and come back and shaken it off. Um here you go. Like, I I think um there's a really anyway, and Netflix there's an amazing team and Doug Belgrad and Dan Lane. There are people who really love movies. Donald Langley, Peter Kramer, like these people love movies and they're actually good at it. Um you know, and I think we're gonna have some really good movies again. And and when I say good movies, it doesn't have to be small. I mean, I'm psyched for Ridley's movie. I can't wait to see Gladiator too. So I think there's room. But long story short, I think movies are gonna allow us to be more challenging again. And really, to your point, I think like massive peak TV, which had its own challenges. I mean, you make something great. How do you get people to see it? You know, but uh, but that's where, you know, all right, I'm gonna sound sweaty, but that's what I gotta be honest. I love this show and I can't wait for people to watch it because I really think it's the best of both. It's funny and it's even secretly about something. I find it crazy. Like true crime. I've made a movie about true crime and Ted Fundy. I'm not a true crime guy. I cannot believe how many people love true crime. It's amazing. And that's what our show is about that embraces it. I just love these subcultures. And so this to me is totally a show. Whereas, you know, our movie we did, Hitman, was submitted to me as a show. And I said, I don't know that I want to see the week to week. And Glenn Powell, who's a great friend of ours, said, let's do it as a movie. And then we started that way.

SPEAKER_03 22:24

So I guess the mirror to the question I asked before, um, from a from a professional point of view, we we try not to ask questions that are about enjoyment and satisfaction, because that's not the point of what we normally talk about, but it can sometimes happen in Hollywood. Given again, you've done both. What what gives you more pleasure? You know, knowing going to the premiere of a movie like Brokeback Mountain and knowing that you know people will be in a room together watching this incredible thing and that's special. Or, you know, obviously the TV side where I know they now do premieres, but they're not quite as exciting as movie premieres. Um but then obviously, you know, people are sitting in their living rooms watching it every week, talking about it, and obviously, like this show, it gets renewed and it keeps going. From a from a satisfaction point of view, what gives you what gives you more?

SPEAKER_02 23:16

That's a good question. Um I'm gonna say there are two, and I think they're kind of tied for me. One is you know, I do this because I really I love the discovery. I still do. Every movie, every show feels different. I really love the discovery of a new story of characters and the artists. Um I'm I I love that, you know, movies that I work on or going to AFI and seeing this Zambian um Irish movie that I think is a masterpiece called On Becoming a Guinea Fowl that um A24 is going to release. And no one's heard of it yet, but I can't wait for people to see it. It's incredible. So I think that part of it, and the other part uh to sound like a knucklehead, is I really I love the impact because I get impacted by stuff that I watch. Um, you know, like does it make me see something, feel something, laugh about something, think about something? I I I like that. I that really affects me, and I like when that happens to the audience. So it didn't win any Oscars or anything, but there's a movie that um really was important to me called Dumplin that I made. And we made it independently. It's based on a book, and I really made it for my teenage daughters, who I thought it's about um this great actress, um, Danielle McDonald, who plays this um, you know, like this big girl whose mom runs a local beauty pageant, and Jen Aniston played her. And she um she wants to enter the pageant, and it's kind of like a big, like, you know, F you to the pageant, but she's gonna do it and gets her friends to do it. It is, you know, YA. It's like in the pitch perfect world, like in that kind of world, et cetera. But, you know, we had to make it independently. Again, another hard one. Every person, oh, I love it so much, but I don't know how to do it with her in the lead. And who's, you know, the movie star, blah, blah, blah, you know, all that kind of stuff. And then we made it. And similarly, people liked it and said, I don't know. And, you know, I will say one person said, I don't know if you can have like a girl who looks like that as a lead in a movie. It's like, okay, I'm just literally gonna pretend I never heard that. And, you know, and that was really important to me and having daughters and all of that. And then we made the movie and it's pure joy. And in the in the movie, the character says, What would Dolly Parton do? Dolly Parton said, I love this movie so much you can have my music. Like we made it independently, ended up selling it to Netflix, and thanks to Netflix, it reached a massive audience. And that was pure pleasure because first of all, I love the everybody said no. And then the world wanted to see a movie that all of the, you know, uh gatekeepers were saying no one will want to see it. Half said did love that. Number two was I love that it was basically representing people that we don't see on screen that often, and then letters that we would get, and my partner, and that was Kristen Hahn, who I'm just I think is such an extraordinary writer and producer, and Jen Asden, who dug in and was our partner. Uh, that gives me so much pleasure. Sorry, I'm really long-winded. I shouldn't warn you before.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

And by the way, like you've said a few things, and now that it's my turn, that I I really want to fanboy over uh Hitman, that we don't have time for that. But I thought that movie was fantastic. I tell everyone to watch it. Something really special about just the execution of a film that felt a little different. And I kept on describing it. Well, it's like a romantic comedy that's not really a comedy or an action adventure. There's not a lot of action or adventure, but it's it has all it's has so much heart, and you should watch the movie again. So that's my my one-minute fanboy.

SPEAKER_02 26:59

Oh, I'm thrilled.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

I want to ask you a question. We're gonna start talking about your your current show on the air now or coming on the air soon. So we're gonna get there. Uh, but I want to ask you one more question, which is uh, which is I'm just curious because you've worked with some amazing people, you've worked with you know Tony Scott, who's like uh like really Scott, just like I go back to Tony Scott movies when I'm depressed for some reason. I just like he's it's just there's so phenomenal to watch and you know bring me back, bring me out of my funk. Uh, and you know, Jason Bateman today and others, like the reverse of the question Dan asks, where every uh film and TV show is a miracle. Has there ever been a time in your career where it's like you know, Jason Bateman comes back from a tennis game and says, We're making a TV show? Or Tony's like, I wrote an idea on the on the metaphorical napkin at at wherever and and musos and franks, and and now we're making a movie, it's greenlit already. Has there ever been one that was just so easy that it just got off the ground and they made that movie? Or is that a fantasy?

SPEAKER_02 28:00

I'm so glad you asked that. How about absolutely never, never, ever, ever. I'm so glad. Ever. And you know, when I started at Scot Free, I was like, great, now I get to see that secret room in Hollywood that has all the best grips in Hollywood. And I opened that metaphorical door and like, I don't know, like a bat hit me in the face. I was like, what? There's nothing here. We had to grow our own food and start from scratch, nothing. The only thing I ever got after lunch was Tony was a wild man in the best way. We go climbing and you know, sleep on the side of a mountain with his kids. And I mean, the greatest, truly the greatest. And uh, he loved river rafting. But whenever you get back from the river rafting trip, oh my god, Ellenberg and I would get the hey, Dan has an amazing idea for a movie. The river rafting guy had like batched crazy ideas for movies that we would then have to go find a filmmaker, and it was insane. None of them ever got made. So it's maybe the reverse.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

That's funny. Okay, well, now let's circle back to where we started. Based on a show, uh, you you you talked a little bit about the inception with the filmmakers uh turning this into a TV show, but let's really talk about getting this show off the ground and what it means to you.

SPEAKER_02 29:15

Yeah. Well, this here's first of all, I'm gonna say I I what I it's the kind of TV that I love because great characters, funny, your favorite actors. Like that's what I want to watch on TV. Uh, you know, and I'm really excited about this. And it even secretly gets to like say something. But this was, I think, for the artists who are listening to this, the best part of this, this is old school, like Hollywood. Okay. The genesis of this project started in the lobby of an office when I hear, hey Michael, and I hear an Australian voice. And I turn around as a friend who I haven't seen in a hundred years. And because I'm a movie guy and he had been working in television, and he said, I had this crazy thing and an idea, and I want to talk to you about it. And it turns out to be based on a true story. He says, I want to come talk to you in Bateman about it. So Jason and I hear it, our jaws hit the ground, thinking, what a great idea. Love the characters. This is so funny. At the very, very end, uh, and this is not a spoiler, because for those who have seen season one, at the end, the brilliant Chris Massina has to say to Tom Bateman, um, hey, let's make a podcast. And they do it at the beach. So we're having this meeting, this pitch, and Jason and I are blown away. And Jay says, I just have one question. How does the killer try does he trust Chris Massina? Why it, you know, Nathan, because there was no Christmas India. Why does he trust Nathan? How does he know he's not wearing a wire? How does how does he know? And Craig says, I'm not sure. Jay says, What if they're at the beach? You can't wear a wire. What if they're gonna like get in and all of a sudden Jason starts digging in of how you would do it as a director and how you would play it? Craig loved it and then took it further. And when I watch episode one and think, that's how it happened, like you know, in West Hollywood in our dusty conference room, and then it really came to life. And, you know, this also had again back to writers listening to this. This was um a young executive at Peacock who heard it. Um, Jay Castiglione, who heard it with Alex C Peel. And they said, We really like this. Let's develop it. Development normally sounds scary. They meant it. We Craig wrote two scripts, they really liked it. They showed it to Lisa Katz, who said, I love this, let's do this. So it really is as old school as it gets. Uh, developing it. And then the chain letter continued, where we had just seen the flight attendant and thought, God, I mean, Kayleigh Quoco, she's Goldie Horn. That was foul play. And we thought, wouldn't that be cool? Find out that maybe she's free, give her the script. Literally, 48 hours later, she calls us crying with laughter. She's like, this is insane and funny and I love it. And the same, it was just the same with Christmas Cena, etc. So it really started from the writing and finding uh finding all these artists who literally to this day we've had such a blast making it, uh, you know, so that's that's how it all happened.

SPEAKER_03 32:38

So I I can't not ask the um what was the hard part of this? Because it nothing's easy. So, in terms of this particular show, uh and whether it's you get to choose whether it's sort of getting the show off the ground or getting through to the second season, what was the the hardest part if there was a hard part here?

SPEAKER_02 33:02

Okay, here is the hard part, which was kind of funny, and Kaylee's talked about it. So we're getting ready to go. Um, and figuring out dates and figuring out who's gonna play Matt, the killer. And that's a very hard role because you connect with him and he's a killer, etc. We really, really, and I hope the audience agrees, like, really found our great actor in Tom Bateman. So we're all ready to go. And Kaylee says, Oh, wait, before I go, just one quick thing. Uh, I'm pregnant. We're thinking, wait, what? And she says, But can you just like, I don't know, I can still do it, but can you write, can you write it in? Can you just write in that I'm pregnant? So we think, well, I guess, yeah, why not? Right? Like, you actually haven't seen a pregnant woman on TV like do this stuff, or there's even, you know, she has her own fantasies about things. And like we thought, well, that's bold, that's actually kind of great. But she leaves and we think, oh my God, how are we gonna convince everybody? What are people gonna think? And uh anyway, that should have been harder, but it wasn't because we had awesome partners in Peacock who said, hmm, well, writing the script, let's see. We wrote it and they liked it. But that was a real wrench, which turned not to be a wrench that actually, I think creatively made a difference. Um, but it has been one of those things where the hard part was to actually trust because literally it's survived, like it started as a kernel of an idea and development and uh came out the other side in a way that we all really like.

SPEAKER_03 34:37

Fantastic. Great answer. So I'm I guess I'm gonna move to the future for my next question. So you know, we've we've had the whole, you know, the Brokeback Mountain story, we've had how you sort of got into TV, we've had this show. Going forward, in terms of um I think I'm allowed to say this because I am being British people can say what might be rude things and they come across politely. Um you're probably nearer the end of your career than the beginning. Um and so in terms in terms of what what's left for you to achieve. So, you know, you've worked on some of the either, you know, you can either describe them as the biggest or culturally the most important movies of of our time. You're you're doing the TV show thing now in and telling real stories you like. What's what's left for you? Is there a uh Noah likes to call them soul projects, but is there is there a is there something that you need to get out, either it's a movie or another TV show that uh you've earned the right in your career to do now because you're not you might not need to do some of the things you had to do at the beginning. You get to choose what you want to do to an extent. What's what's your missing Hollywood piece?

SPEAKER_02 35:55

That's so interesting. I I I don't know, maybe it's why I've worked my way to the middle. Is I I wake up every day so I mean, like excited, frustrated, ready to champion, ready to go scream, ready to do it all for what I'm working on and what I'm working on. So, for example, right now, um excited to say that in the fall we have a new show with Jason and Jude Law, which really started with these two new writers for TV who came in and had an awesome idea, and that came to life, and that's a thrill. I'm equally excited by this script that we were lucky enough by really uh like this brilliant young agent at CA who said, Well, I don't know about that, but I just read some like crazy script by some new Australian writer or director. I said, Send it to me. I read it that night. It is so funny, it is so bold, it's insane, and we're gonna make it with um incredible artists. She's gonna write and direct it and be in it. And our friend Joel Edgerton is gonna be in it, who's brilliant. And I love it. I cannot wait. We're making it for no money. I can't wait. I'm so excited. And then lastly, we have a movie coming out this summer that we did with Finn Wolfhart and Fred Hackinger and Billy Brick. They came and said, we want to do our version of Super Bad Meets a Slasher movie. I read, I said, Bring it. Let's do it. Made it a summer camp, made it for no money. My youngest daughter, who loves independent films, said, Can I work on it? I said, Yeah, but I'm working on something else. I left her there. She literally did nights and said, Dad, isn't that illegal? I'm like, listen, you know, you don't have a job. She was doing helping the guys with catering when the caterer quit and stole all the food. Like it's a blast. And it comes out this summer on neon, and it's from Neon, and it's hell of a summer, and it's so fun. And literally, I cannot wait. Like a Gen Z comedy, horror movie. Like, can't wait. So that I I still, I still really like so much of what I'm seeing and want to keep making things that people are into. I'm into it and I want to share it. So I don't feel see it as like a missing piece. And I'm not really good at uh, like, oh, how do we grow the business of blah? Like, I have so many smart friends. I wish I were one of them. I can't. I I just I I love the apples on the tree, you know, finding them, watering them, making them, sharing them. I I'm not too good at the other side.

SPEAKER_03 38:27

What an amazing answer. Um thank you for that. I think this has been um absolutely fascinating. I wasn't quite sure how where we were going to go today, and we've gone to all sorts of great places. Um, and it's in an industry where, as, as you've said and other people have said, it's so hard to get anything made, you have to really want to do it, you have to be passionate about it. And that comes across so clearly in all of your answers. So I'm I'm excited for what is our final question, um, which we ask everyone. And um I'm intrigued as what how you're gonna answer this one, which is if you could give a single piece of advice to somebody wanting to enter the industry, what would that single piece of advice be?

SPEAKER_02 39:12

I I think uh what I always remind myself is it literally just takes one one yes. I I don't care anymore. I everything we do, I get so many no's. I don't because I have the experience now, I don't even care. Maybe I get frustrated or like you know, rah rah rah. I don't care. I just need the one yes. And so to just keep going and look past it, there are gonna be so many people who, oh, not for me. I don't see it. This will never work because of this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Please, like, don't care. Keep doing it because you're gonna find the one. It happens all the time. The Australian movie I just told you about, I've saved all of the passes because it's kind of hilarious. All these financiers, oh, I don't know if it's for me. We have this unbelievable finance here, this guy's a genius, who is gonna do this. And I love it. All these people, because you know why they say no? They're afraid. It's so safe to say no. Saying yes is brave because you're like, please, I almost got fired after we made Gattaca. Okay. I got called down to the boss's office and was gonna get fired because the movie didn't do well at the box office. You know what? I'm still really proud of Gattaca. P.S. It ended up doing very well in other in other ways. And of course, nobody called me down to the office to say, hey, it did really great in ancillary. They only tell you when it's like really a shitty result. But honestly, like put your blinders on and just keep going. And I don't mean that in like a Pollyanna way, I mean it for real. Don't listen to the haters. Keep going.

SPEAKER_03 40:52

Brilliant. Well, a great final answer to a great interview. Michael Costakin, thank you very much indeed for your pleasure, you guys. It's been our pleasure to have you on.

SPEAKER_01 41:06

Thank you so much for listening, and thank you, James Launch, for the music. And our wives for putting up with our Tom Plury. As always, each episode is brought to you by Scriptation, my favorite screenwriting annotation software. If you want to support the show, please download a copy at www.scriptation.com backslash Noah.

SPEAKER_03 41:27

Or perhaps even better, www.scriptation.com backslash Dan.

SPEAKER_01 41:33

Dan is spelled N O A H. If you want to find me on social media, I am at Twitter at NFslin and more recently on threads at Noah Epslin.

SPEAKER_03 41:46

Don't worry about me on social media because all you people seem to care about is Noah anyway.