Take 108 - Producer, director, songwriter, writer Adam Anders, Glee, Rock of Ages, Journey to Bethlehem

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for shore, dozens of unproduced scripts literature floor.

SPEAKER_03 0:13

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

There is most, sometimes even failure.

SPEAKER_02 0:27

This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

And I probably lost it. And I remember thinking about that for me. I moved by one pitch bar when I've realized that that will be never one pitch bar. There will be other charts.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Screaming into the Hollywood events is brought to you by Scriptation, the Emmy Award-winning app that instantly transfers your notes into new drafts in seconds. Scriptation allows you to digitally mark up scripts, separate notes into layers, track changes across revisions, and so much more. Insert Noah saying something nice about scriptation.

SPEAKER_03 1:20

Dan, I I think this is where they actually want me to talk about how much I love it. And I do love it, it's great. It's calling function transformed me from the messiest writer in Hollywood to, well, ever so slightly less messy. My wife might have other things to say about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Sitha listeners can get a free month of scriptation by going to scriptation.com backslash Sitha.com backslash S-I-T-H-A. Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. I am your non-entertainment co-host, Dan Rutstein.

SPEAKER_03 2:08

And I am your industry co-host, Noah Epson. On today's Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, I'm thrilled to introduce the multi-talented music producer as well as TV and film writer, director, and producer, Adam Anders, to our podcast. As a music producer, Adam has sold more than 100 million albums, and in recent years, he's seguated to film and TV, where he's helped produce and or write such hit music-based TV shows and films such as Glee, High School Musical, The Prom, Rock of Ages, and many, many more. Adam is currently making his directorial debut with Journey to Bethlehem Bethlehem out in theaters tomorrow. Welcome, Adam.

SPEAKER_04 2:45

Thanks for having me, guys. I feel like uh yeah, all those things you say this podcast is about. I feel like I'm like a walking caricature of it, but uh failure, rejection, and that's my middle name, man. So I'm on the right podcast. You you you are.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

So let's let's this is slightly failure is my middle name, right? Um this is a slightly different one. This is a sort of, I guess, this is a almost this is almost as live. So um in the nicest possible way, um, you look quite tired. Um we're only doing the audio, but if they could see you, you would they would see a tired looking man um who's quite excited because uh his big new movie is coming out tomorrow. Um, but you're also right in the middle of it, and the strike isn't helping with things. So just uh give us the sort of how are you today and how are you feeling before we do the real questions.

SPEAKER_04 3:44

Yeah, I'm not responsible for anything I say on this podcast because I've slept two hours for five days in a row. Uh I've been crisscrossing the country, and every time I'm walking in a uh airport or sitting in a car, I'm doing interviews because uh, as you mentioned, there's a strike and uh it's coming out in 38 countries, and I'm the only one who can talk about it. So it's been quite a uh a uh ride here. Um what's the old adage, watch what you ask for? You might just get it. Um I'm getting it right now, big time. Uh what's funny? I didn't get into this business to be the one doing the interviews. Uh I like being behind the scenes, so it's it's a little uncomfortable for me. Um, but we have to do what we have to do and get this thing out to the world. But uh yeah, I'm a little tired, um, but I'm excited, like you said. Um don't know what to expect. You know, the strike's been hard. Uh, this is a grassroots kind of marketing campaign for this movie, and grassroots usually includes the cast. You know, they're the ones doing it uh and getting people out the first couple weeks, and then the movie has to do its job after that. But um, so yeah, I don't know. Um hoping it'll find its audience.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

So I was uh quite sure how I managed to get into the uh influencer screening, but last I don't either actually talk about that. Security was apparently light. So I was I was at the that's pretty good. Um I was at the influencer screening uh of of this movie, and you stood up before in the way that these things work and sort of told your story. And I it's interesting because obviously the the what makes this interesting is obviously you know there's there's this movie which is you know a light family musical version of one of the most well-known stories, um and I think you were saying on stage that I thought when you were pitching this, no one could quite believe that this sort of hadn't really been done before. Um but I know it's been a very long journey. So let's uh uh go back to the beginning. When you had the idea to do this and you started pitching it, how were people receiving uh this uh pitch for what should be obvious as a great idea, but in the way these things work, also could sound like a very weird pitch to be making.

SPEAKER_04 6:00

You know what? Um I have to like go back now many years because it started 17 years ago when I first had the idea, and it was just literally I was looking for a Christmas musical to watch, and I couldn't find one that actually was about Christmas. So I'm like, well, that's weird. And back then I was just a music producer, songwriter. So I thought, well, I guess I'll write one then. I'll write a musical, you know, a stage play is really how it started. And um little did I know it would take 17 years and be really hard. Um, but uh yeah, that's what started it all. 11-page treatment that I wrote back then. It was called Road to Bethlehem, but you know, it took 17 years, so it had to turn into a journey. Um, but uh I think when I first started pitching it, uh I think it was as far back as 2007, maybe the first time I pitched it. And I've pitched this movie for so long I've been at four different agencies during this process. So everyone's heard about this stupid movie and they don't want to hear about it anymore. Um but honestly, it was pretty well received on an agent level right away. We're like, oh, this is a great idea. Why has anybody done this? Everybody said the same thing. And then you like go just one level deeper and they go, I forget it's gonna be too hard. Nobody will buy this. And it was just kind of that thing over and over. And couldn't get at first, I was trying to get a writer to attach, and no writers would attach. So then I said, Well, I'll write it myself. And I wrote the first iteration of it uh in 2010. Um, and that got nowhere. Um, probably because it was a terrible script, is my probably my best guess. I haven't actually gone back to read that one, that would be a frightening experience. Um, but yeah, you just keep, you know, I just kept going, and then 14, another version, and 17. I met Peter Barsacchini. We did high school musical three together, and I'm like, why don't you help me write it? And then we wrote a new version of it, and then I sold it finally based on that, but they didn't like our script, and they're like, We're hiring someone else to write it. I'm like, okay, whatever, I was never gonna write it anyway. Uh I was just happy I'd sold it, and then I got the script that they had written, and I hated it. Um, so I was like, and it wasn't a bad script, don't get me wrong, it was actually an awesome writer who did a magnificent job. It just was completely the opposite of the movie I wanted to make. Um, and so I'm like, well, I have to kill this somehow. So I ended up buying it back from them uh so I could have the rights back. And then uh in 2020, when COVID hit, I found myself with a lot of time in my hands and nothing to do. And I said, Let me take a crack at this again, um, with everything I've learned over this long journey. Um and even a lot of things that I learned uh from the scripts that weren't good and even that other people wrote, and just kind of let me start over again. And so I called Peter um because I felt like that version that we did was the closest. And uh we started over. And then out of that came this version. Um and I think at that point I realized I needed to direct it um to actually tell this story the way I wanted it to be told. So it's been a long, hard fought uh journey, still is. I'm fighting hard right now. Um but yeah, it's surreal. Um but here we are, tomorrow. Every theater, 3,000 theaters in the US. It's so weird.

SPEAKER_03 9:20

Not only 3,000 theaters, I was doing some research before the podcast, and 3,000 theaters, including my local theater here in Hawaii. So you've made it all the way to the shores of the southwest side of the island of Oahu, your movie is playing, and we'll go check it out at some point. Um, of course, Diane is already. We can do that next time. We'll do this one in person. And I do want to add a little bit of, you know, I think a number of the listeners will know this already, but getting a getting a movie launched, getting a movie launched is really difficult. Getting a movie launched where you're the writer and director is even harder. Getting a movie launched about a religious subject is where you are the writer-director, is it's like hitting the lottery again and again. And it's like using the lottery, the winnings to get a buy another ticket, win the lottery again, to buy another ticket to win the lottery again. So I want to just say that the road to this is is nearly impossible. And yet you have a movie going wide. Of course, life doesn't make it easy for you because you are releasing it, you know, during a strike where you alluded to it, but your actors can't promote the movie yet. Hopefully, soon, maybe when this airs, it'll be over. It's feels like it's happening anytime now, so maybe we can finally all go back to work. Um, but I want to um go, let's take us back in time. We'll come back to the movie that you just made and it's releasing um because we want to I want to hear more about that. But let's go back to what I'm kind of interested in and is you sold a hundred million albums. You were in arguably the hardest business in the world, which is music. And then you decided that you were gonna join another business, which is arguably equally hard or harder, or just slightly less hard, depending on who you're talking to, but very difficult. And you're like, Well, I'm gonna make it work here too. Some people pivot out of desperation. Why did you pivot? Um, because it doesn't sound like it was out of desperation. It sounds like maybe you were approached.

SPEAKER_04 11:18

That's a great question. Um, it was not out of desperation. Um maybe it was out of desperation creatively, um, but definitely not uh from a career standpoint. I had a very successful career as a music producer and songwriter. Um I was bored creatively, um, frankly. And and what I've seen in my life, and and you probably know other people like this, that um that you're always looking for something uh creatively. Uh every time I've kind of reached, I started as a bass player, believe it or not. I studied jazz bass. That was my big dream. I'm gonna be a bass player. Um, I kind of accomplished that. I was a first call bass player in Nashville doing arena tours, Shania Twain, whatever, and I'm like, man, this is boring. Like, this doesn't fulfill me at all. Creatively, this just isn't it. And by the way, that's a really weird realization when you spent your whole life mastering something. Like that, wait, what? I thought this was gonna be different. Then I became a songwriter, and I was like, Well, I've always written songs, so why don't I try to sell my songs? And then I heard how they produced them, and I went, Well, that's not very good. Uh, why don't I try producing them? And it was kind of that thing, but then I got to the pinnacle of that, and I was like, why am I still creatively unfulfilled when I'm successful doing something that I think I love? It's a very weird thing, and I'm not a malcontent at all. Um, I'm actually quite grateful um for everything I have because I grew up with nothing, um, which is part of why I've told this story because I grew up, my parents were in the ministry and missions, and so it was a big part of my family story and everything. So it's an important story to me and my faith. But um so it wasn't like ungrateful for the success. I was just like, this isn't it. This isn't the thing. And I've always loved storytelling and I've always loved movies and TV. And I said, well, why don't I start doing film and TV music? Let's do that. And so that's my mood from New York to LA was to pursue film and TV music. And in the back of my head, I was like, maybe that's the way one day I'll get to tell my own stories. If I can get into film and TV through music, which I'm really good at, maybe then one day they'll listen to my stories. And that was kind of the long game, and I didn't expect it to go as well as that went because I kind of had barely unpacked the boxes and glee happened. Um, and that was a whole crazy Beatle-esque ride that I couldn't have predicted. And you know, out of that came Rocket Ages and all these different things that we did. Um, but the whole time I'm like, as successful as Glee was. I mean, we had nine of the top ten on the charts at the same time. I was at the pinnacle of that career. Um, I was like, eh. I'm still like, what is wrong with me? Seriously. Just this is not the thing, creatively. Um, so then I started pitching my own musical ideas because that's when people started approaching me, like you said, because of the the massive success of that show, and that I was doing the music for it, and the music was driving the success, frankly. Um, I got approached. Like, well, do you have any other musical ideas? So that's how that pivot naturally kind of just happened. But it wasn't a I was kind of heading that direction on my own, but then everything kind of came together in the right way, and and I was able to slide over to that and pitch my own ideas and started selling them. Then I started selling TV shows and and movie ideas. Um I got to write, some I didn't. Uh I didn't try to direct any of them. Saw many of them butchered. Um, you probably know what that feels like. Having a you know, writing what you think is like the best script you've ever written, and then you see somebody you direct and just make it the worst movie you've ever seen. That's a really terrible feeling, too. Uh, which, by the way, uh is one of the main reasons I said I'm gonna direct this movie. I'm not gonna let that happen to this one. So that was kind of my journey through all that stuff.

SPEAKER_03 15:05

I I I like staying in chronological order, and I was gonna stay in chronological order, but I want to ask a question because you're in a really unique position where you said you were creatively discontented and then you wanted control and you got control, meaning you you wrote and you directed a movie, and you were in that weird place because it hasn't come out yet. So you your dreams are still eclipsing what might or might not be the reality of you have no idea what's gonna happen tomorrow, right? And and you're waiting for that to come out. What is your emotional state at this second? And would you say you're happy? Like you're happy with the process because you're still in the sort of Shangri-La place where this can go anywhere and be anything. And did you make the movie you wanted to make?

SPEAKER_04 15:46

I'm miserable right now, frankly. Uh, but I'm very content. Um, it's an interesting uh you know contradiction, I know, but that's where I find myself because I've had the most uh creatively fulfilling year of my life making this movie. It's been the hardest year of my life because I'm a first-time director and you have to fight and claw for everything. Um every day there was a battle, and that gets exhausting. Um I also didn't have enough time, I didn't have any money to make the movie. Um it was just very, very hard. Um and but I just like I have to make this movie at all costs. It doesn't matter what it takes. And you know, I had to move away from my family for six months. I moved to Spain to shoot the film, so I didn't see my family for six months, which is crazy. Uh it was really hard. That's the thing people don't think about, you know, when you go make these movies and do these things. There's such a sacrifice going on behind the scenes. And then we're so quick to you know to judge a movie and say, well, that movie sucks, that guy's terrible, whatever. I'm like, you try doing it. This is literally the hardest thing you can do, make a movie, start to finish. It is unbelievable how much work it is and how many people uh have to work on it and be rowing in the same direction uh for it to actually come out and be a good movie, you know, because I have to then convince the studios, I have two studios, financiers, and all these people, and everybody has opinions and you're wrangling all that. I mean, it's you know, you've been there, it's a nightmare. Um, but thankfully I did have a studio and a financier that believed in my vision for the movie, uh, which was very helpful. And probably frankly, the fact that I've had such a long career maybe gave me a little more weight than a typical first-time director. I produced a lot of big movies and TV shows, so I had more power probably than any other first-time director, just in the sense that they trusted me because they see my track record. And I have good taste and I kind of know what I'm doing, and I know what good looks like because I've been around good, you know. Um, but it was hard. Um, so I find myself now with the strike, which is by the way, Murphy's Law, 17 years and it lands right on strike, you know. I'm like, really? That's just fantastic. Um God has got a sense of humor, I think. Um but um it's hard. What I'm what I'm most I think content with is the movie I made. I'm very happy with the movie. You know, somebody told me going into this, if I got 70% of what I wanted in this movie, it would be a success for me personally. And I can honestly say that I have about 90%. I didn't have to compromise that much. I got to make my movie with the time of money I had. Um, you know, it's like Hitchcock said, you you know, movies aren't finished, it's abandoned, which I fall into that category too. Sorry, you're out of money in time. All right, I guess I like it. But uh yeah, so I'm I wouldn't say I'm uh I know it's not gonna be a blockbuster tomorrow. I know that it's too small a movie and it has the finest audience. Uh, we didn't have a big PA. Um, so it's really gonna be a word of mouth movie. The reason it's coming out way before Thanksgiving with a Christmas movie is to give word of mouth a chance uh to spread into Thanksgiving, and then hopefully we can pour some fuel on the fire at that point. But I don't know what to expect. Um I'm just very proud of it. I'm proud that I finally got it done after all these years, and I'm I'm just trying to take the W, you know, take the win. As you said, it's like it's a miracle that I finished this thing because it's a musical nobody wants to make. It's faith-based with nobody makes wants to make. Uh it's a first-time director, which nobody wants to let make a movie. Uh it's just everything was stacked against me, and we still got it made. So definitely want to celebrate that, whatever happens tomorrow.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Oh, yeah, that's a fantastic also an insight. I wanna I wanna I mean now I made this point about sort of winning the lottery. Um I want to talk about the religion part. Um I know they say you should never talk about religion, but we sort of have to, um, on this podcast. So in terms of it's a really I mean, you know, it's it's Journey to Bethlehem, so it's very obviously about a religious subject. Uh there's obviously a balance one has to strike between it being religious enough that you know you you don't offend your parents, for example. And you I think you made that point before your remarks, but obviously not so religious that it becomes something that should go on the God channel and not be in like 3,000 movie theatres? I don't know if there's a God channel in America. I think there used to be one in England. I think it's called something. Yeah, there is something.

SPEAKER_04 20:13

But also, I guess so joke is Fox News, but we'll just keep moving.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

So how do you how did you maintain that uh balance? And I guess of the notes you will have got along the way, how many of them were too religious, not religious enough, uh, from the various people involved?

SPEAKER_04 20:35

Uh truthfully, um very little. Um they knew what they were getting into. Um, you know, they signed up for the script that I'd written that um you can tell what it is. It it is not a Bible thumping movie. It is not. I just felt like I just wanted to tell the story of Christmas, right? Whether you are a believer or you're not, um I was like, it's for everybody. I wanted to make elf, but about Christmas. It's really what it came down to, right? Something where the whole family can gather, you know. And by the way, when your whole family gathers, some may be believers, some may not, all of them may not. Uh they're from all walks of life, whatever. Um, what can we make that everyone can enjoy? And then it actually be about what you're celebrating. And and so the goal was to um make that movie um, you know, I would say, you know, a firm, which is the faith-based division of Sony who's distributing it, um, you know, they have a very narrow audience that they go after. This movie is actually way more broad than that. Uh so there was some tension in that um because I feel like this is a very mainstream movie that I made. Um, but they very much want it to be um, you know, for the faith audience. So there's some tension there, but they never forced me to do anything, frankly. They were really good partners. Um for me, it's walking that line you know, it's never gonna be Christian enough for some people, and it's always gonna be too Christian for others. Other people. I can't make everyone happy. It's impossible. So I'm if you what do they say? If you try to make everyone happy, you make no one happy. So, you know, I made a movie that kind of was what I wanted to see, and hopefully other people agree, you know. Um, but it's uh definitely to be the first my first movie to pick religion, musical, period, in another country, you know, all these things. I'm like, what was I thinking, man? I should have made like a soccer movie. Uh I don't know. That would have been much easier. Um, but no, it's um it's interesting. Um I've found that uh when I've been screening this movie, uh every everybody likes it. It's not like only Christians like it uh at all, and that makes me really happy because I made it for everybody.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Yeah, I mean look, I don't want to give away the plot, although you could probably guess it, but I I am from a religion, I I'm not Christian, I'm from a religion that doesn't feature a lot of Jesus. Um but I've I've enjoyed the movie. Uh you know, I took it at face value. I wasn't quite sure what to expect, uh I must admit. Um but I very much like the posters. Uh they were designed by my friend, uh, but still, I very much like the posters. But I figured I could guess some of the elements in it, but um, you know, I I enjoyed it as a family movie and it didn't feel too religious, but it obviously I could got the sense that it was religious enough for some of the people in the room. Um so uh question how did you get Antonia Banderas um into this movie? Because that feels like there must be a story there.

SPEAKER_04 23:35

There's a big story there. Um, he has no business being this movie. Uh yeah, so you know, look, I um I always had him at the top of my list uh since COVID three years. I was like, this guy would be amazing as Herod. I kind of wrote with him in mind, you know, this Herod character, this kind of uh what Johnny Depp is to pirates, you know, Herod is to kings, you know, is kind of what I had in my head. Um I know that Antonio can sing, his song was really difficult. And Antonio wasn't fan of the opera and all these musical, he's just phenomenal. He's an incredible singer, unbelievable range, and he's so charismatic, he's such a rock star and a movie star. Um, but he can be evil and he can be super charming and he's good looking. All these things I wanted, he encompassed all of it. So I'm like, well, let's just try. You know, what's the worst he's gonna say? No. Uh which they did. Um, they said no. Uh the manager's like, no, not how you can't afford him, uh, not happening. But um, you know, 17 years, I'm obviously tenacious. Uh, so we kept going back to the manager. Well, just read the script. So we have the manager recently. He's like, I actually liked it. And he's like, I'm like, I told you. Okay, listen to the song. He's like, I really like the song. Send the song to Antonio. He sends the song to Antonio, so we're getting somewhere. Antonio says, I love the song, but I can't sing that high. Forget it. I'm like, okay, I know he can sing. So uh that was not gonna deter me. Um, so we keep hounding this manager, and at this point, the studio has another person to play the role, a very big actor. Um, and I was like, that's not the guy. And I was freaking out a little bit because I'm like, this no, this can't work. And you know, was it Ilya Kazan that said 80% of directing is casting? I totally agree with that because I'd seen it so many times on my shows and movies when they got the cast wrong, it was just unfixable. So I knew that that would be a disaster with that particular actor who's a phenomenal actor, by the way, it just wasn't right. Um, so my crap, I gotta go back to this age agent, this manager one more time. So we're pushing hard, and he goes, It's not happening. He's directing and starring in a play, and he can't be bothered with it. So we're like, well, where is he directing and starring in a play? And I had just moved to Spain, to Madrid, to start prepping the movie. Um, and he goes, Well, he's in Madrid, so it's not gonna happen. So I'm like, Well, that's not a coincidence. So I'm like, uh, what theater? I'll be right there. Um, so it wasn't quite that easy. Uh we started buying tickets to his show. Uh, we just went guerrilla style and started stalking him and going every night to his show. Uh, my producer just kept buying tickets. You know, he kept showing up. He'd go or I'd go, uh, we'd all go. And then finally, my producer uh was at the bar or something at the theater and started talking to a guy. And it turns out he's one of Antonio's best friends. And he's like, Well, I want him to be in this movie. This sounds great. I'm gonna text him, and then he goes, Well, come back tomorrow, he'll meet with you. So we go back the next night. Uh, I text the manager, like, what do I need to get him to say to do this? And he said, Get him to say, talk to my manager. I'm like, Okay. So we're sitting there, it's a four-hour play in Spanish. Then I had to sit through a two-hour QA in Spanish with film students. So we're now seven hours into our journey because I had to get there early to meet this friend. It's two in the morning, and here comes Antonio. I'm completely fried, I'm so tired, and I got like three minutes with this guy to pitch him. So uh I gave him my best elevator pitch. Um, I don't know what I said, uh, but then he got to the song part. I can't sing the song, and I pulled out my little piano and my phone, and I go, You've been hitting this note every night that I've been coming to your show, and that's the same note that's in the song, and you're doing it live, and you don't have to do live in my movie. And he's like, Huh, okay. And he's like, Do I get to play the bad guy? I'm like, Yeah. So I pitch him the Herod character, and he's like, You know what? Talk to my manager. I was like, Yes, we got him. So we were floating home at three in the morning. Um, and it was an amazing thing. I mean, to get somebody like him, he's such a movie star, he elevated everything around him and everyone, and um, it was really, really great moment for us.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

Amazing. Look, um this podcast is a lot of things. No, no, but that that's the sort of question you normally get asked in sort of you know the junk kits for movies. But for this podcast, I wanted to ask that question because I think for the layperson, they've got no idea how this works. The fact that that you know, you spent 17 years making a movie, and that's just to get one person, albeit a particularly important character, to show the effort that goes in. I think that just gives a sense of sort of how hard the these things are. And if you could send me six numbers, uh please by tomorrow so I could come and buy uh some lottery tickets, that would be appreciated.

SPEAKER_04 28:22

Yeah, it's uh it's a pretty remarkable thing, and he was amazing. He bought in completely. And I knew that he was a man of faith too. I know he's a very devout Catholic. Um, and I knew that he lived an hour from our set in southern Spain. I'm like, there's just too much going for us. Like, this I've got to be able to get this to work out. And you just can't give up sometimes. You just gotta push, push, push. And uh he did his EPK um on set, and they asked him why he took the role, and he said, because he came to my show. You know, so you know, it's just little things sometimes. It's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_03 28:56

If somebody asked me advice and was like, I have a script and I think Brad Pitt's gonna be perfect, and Brad Pitt's is storming in a play right down the street from me. So do you think it would be a good idea that if I went to the play every single night and stalked Brad Pitt to get him to do my trip? I would probably say no up until this podcast.

SPEAKER_04 29:17

No, no, I've started a really bad thing. Uh now, everybody remember I was in talks with the manager. It wasn't in a vacuum. He knew I wasn't some psychopath. Um we just kept going in the hopes that uh he would come out one night and talk to us. Um and I'm like, well, I'm I'm right next door. I'm not gonna take the, you know, I'm gonna try if he just on the chance that he decides, okay, fine, I'll talk to this guy. And we were there and we did it. So yeah, please don't stalk people. Uh that's really bad. It's usually a terrible way to get people to do anything. And don't walk up to him at like Walmart and hand them a script, please. Just don't do that. It just doesn't work. It goes in the garbage.

SPEAKER_03 29:55

Agreed and agreed. Um, uh, okay, so you we have we have you had a fascinating time because you you're right in this bubble. The movie's coming out, it's a huge thing. You you work for 17 years, and and maybe we'll get you back on after it's come out and it's hopefully done fantastic, and we can talk about the roller coaster you're on now. But what happens mentally for you at this point in regards to your career? You're it's your movie hasn't come out, but you've done a major movie. Your agents are beginning to think about positioning you somewhere. Are you saying I want to direct another movie? Or are you saying right now I want to sleep for six months, see my family, and then I'm gonna think about what's coming next? What is that process for your well?

SPEAKER_04 30:37

Definitely uh my agents uh are pushing heavily for the next movie. Um look, like I said, I found I found my calling making this movie, you know, um, which was crazy for me at my, you know, I'm in my 40s, I've done a lot of things and to like, oh, wait a minute, this is the thing I've been looking for. So I can't walk away from that now. I'm I'm stuck, I'm hooked. Um, so I want to make more movies. I did walk away from a very successful career to make no money to make this movie um a huge risk. Um and uh yeah, I just had to do it, so it is what it is, but um, I'd live in a trailer park and still make this movie. You know, that's the reality is and I think you have to be that way. You have to be sold out to the art. And you have I've always done it for um creative reasons. I've never chased money in my career. Um I just haven't. I've just always chased like the thing that fulfills me creatively, and and there's always something in me going, no, go do that, go build that, go make that, and money has come, you know. I've it's been fine. Uh I don't know if money will come this time, but if no money comes, but I'm fulfilled creatively and I know what I'm doing, what I'm supposed to be doing, I can live with that. Um but I started talking about my next idea to my wife yesterday, and she shut me down and said, Don't talk to me till January. So I think it's gonna be January. Which, by the way, for the record, you know, I wrote all the music um in the movie with my wife. Like we our first date was writing a song together, and 26 years later we're still writing songs together. Um, so it was a very much a family affair, too, which by the way, when I moved away for six months, that helped that she was a part of it and that it was a family you know decision and not unilateral. Um so uh yeah, I I think uh I'm stuck making movies now and directing. Um so unless everybody nobody will hire me because they hate the movie and I suck as director. But I think you saw the movie, it's not horrible horrible, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 32:30

So the the um the I mean talent aside, because that's obviously you're you're talented and you've done, you know, because you've been in you've succeeded in so many fields. What do you think is the key to your success? We were a failure podcast, so I apologize in advance because I'm not often failure, but it might be connected. I mean, are you not scared of rejection? Are you are you how do you rise to the top in every one of these fields that are almost impossible to even get to the middle?

SPEAKER_04 32:57

Because exactly that. Uh I've I've already accepted failure before I start. I'm okay with it. I mean, when I pitched my first show, I was like, what's the worst they can say? No. And they did. I'm like, okay, well, that band-aid's come off. Um, and kind of my mentality has always been every no is closer to a yes. And um, but 100% the the secret is that you have to be okay to fail if you're gonna take these type of um risks. And a lot of people aren't cut out for changing careers and walking away from success to chase the next thing, whatever it's uh you know, it's not for everybody. Um but I'm okay to to fail. I'm not okay not to try. Um, and that's just kind of how I live my life. I have to try, or I'm not gonna be able to sleep at night. You know, when I when they bury me, they're not burying me with my house and my accolades or whatever, you know. But I'd like to be near the end and go, you know, I did the things I wanted to do. I I, you know, wasn't afraid to try. Um, even if it doesn't succeed, if this movie doesn't do well or doesn't live up to expectations, I think it's gonna do something, but I don't know what that is. Um I have to be okay with just having made it. You know, that is a huge victory. I I got to the finish line, I got it made. Um and I think I encourage have to encourage people two things. One is learn from your failures, because I failed on this thing for 17 years over and over again. Um and I learned every time from that failure. Um rather than just take it as a failure and quit, I took it as a failure and a learning experience. Um so I definitely encourage people to look at it that way. Of course, you also have to admit if it's just a terrible idea, too. There is a balance there because not every idea is good. And I've had, you know, as creative, uh, we have ideas all the time, and that doesn't mean they're good. And and if one doesn't work, you usually walk away from it and go, well, that was a bad idea. Let's go do a new one. This was just one I couldn't let go of. I knew I had to make it. So yeah, so I think the process itself for me is a victory, the fact that I got it got it here to the end. Um but uh like I said, I'm okay. It's not gonna be fun uh if it's not well received and if it does horribly, and of course it's not fun. That's not what we want. Um, but I'm very proud of the movie. I know it's a good movie. Uh I've been around long enough to know bad. Um that doesn't mean that people want this movie. You know, I I don't know. I can't control that. So um yeah. Failure is a great teacher. That's all I know. It's a very good teacher.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

I want to ask it sort of link to your answer. I want to ask a question about uh so last uh Friday night. So um you've been working on this thing for 17 years. You're you're in a room with there are obviously some you know hard-hitting, very important influencers there, like you know, like myself. Um, but there's also a lot of you know You were the biggest by far. Yeah, I know I think I might be right. Um, but they're obviously you know friends, although obviously a lot of the cast, I think there might have been a couple of cast members, but a lot of the cast weren't there because they're not, you know, they can't do anything on the carpet, but there were lots of friends there, but there's obviously lots of family there. Now, some of the family had obviously worked on the on it, like your wife, but there was also you know your parents and your kids. And uh you referenced it at the beginning in your speech, and then obviously it came up at the end that you put, you know, you you mention your parents and your kids in the in the in the credits. Uh that can you talk us through that moment? You're you're in a room, whatever it is, two or three hundred people, many of whom are very close to you, have just watched this thing, maybe not for the first time, but they've all watched it in you know, literally the Oscars theatre. Um and then, you know, a very personal moment at the end of the credits where you're referencing, you know, where you began and then your your offspring. Just what did that moment feel like?

SPEAKER_04 37:11

Yeah, it was surreal. Um, first of all, how amazing is that theater? It was it was really a divine place to watch that movie with my parents for the first time. Frankly, they'd never seen it. Um, it will never sound or look better than it did there. It was a very special night. I think there were 500 people. Um, very few, uh way fewer friends than I would have hoped because everybody, all my friends are in SAG, frankly. Um, so everybody stayed away. Uh, really heartbreaking to not be able to have the cast there because they deserved to be there. Um, so it was bittersweet in many ways. Um but I think it was really um kind of magical because when that came up on the screen, because I kind of alluded to it in the beginning, just I told my mom and dad, like, hey, just stick around for the credits, I have a surprise for you. And everybody stuck around to see what the surprise was, I guess, because they cheered when it came up um on the screen. So it was a really um awesome moment. Uh my parents were very touched. My dad's uh very ill, and um frankly, I didn't know if um he was gonna be around to see this movie, and it was a it was really a I kept trying to figure out should I send him the movie before it's finished on link just so he can see it? He's in Sweden. And uh I didn't do it. I just thought no, I want him to see this the right way the first time, and and so it was really awesome to have him there and to be all dedicated to him and my mom, who I got my creativity from. You know, they're great artists, they were Royal Academy of Music grad grads in Stockholm, and that's where they met, and uh been a huge influence on me, both as a person, obviously, my faith, musically, creatively, um, work ethic, you know, all the stuff that you're supposed to get from your parents, I guess. Um, and we don't we're not all that blessed. So to be able to thank them was it was just a really special night. Um uh and I really was having a hard day. Um, first of all, the press junket was brutal by yourself because it was so much. I was so tired um knowing that Cass couldn't be there. I was very emotional because, like Fiona, for example, she deserves to be on the press junket. She deserves to have her moment because she's phenomenal in the movie. This is her breakthrough role. And Milo, this is his first theatrical release. Um, it was just very emotional for me that they didn't get that moment. They're not gonna get in. They could possibly, this movie could be out of theaters before they're allowed to talk about it. And that's just a tragedy. And I don't think it's okay. Um, so I have a lot of feelings about that, but they've been very much punished, you know, for something they didn't do. Um, so I was very emotional. Um, and that was even more emotional. So basically, I was a basket case, I guess is the best way. I'm surprised I remembered you, frankly. Um, but I do. You're it must be just a very recognizable face. I don't know. Maybe it's the hair. I don't know. Um, but man, what a journey in and to, yeah, like you said, I didn't even think about that the way you just said it, you know, where I began, and then now my offspring, my my boys, um, who I hopefully made proud. That's the cool thing about the movie, is um not many musicals boys like, but I had to make a musical that my boys like, or I wouldn't hear the end of it. So that might work out nicely for me. I don't know. But I don't know if that answers your question, but no, it does.

SPEAKER_01 40:29

No, it does. Uh look, we're uh we're definitely near the end of this podcast in the beginning, which you'll be relieved too, because this must be your hundredth interview of the week, if not, if not more. So just one more question from me, and then Noah's gonna wrap up. Um you know, this movie that comes out this weekend, you know, your name came up about seven times, I think it was in the credits before and after, because you've you know you've you've you've written it the songs, you're the director, you're the producer. I know you said that you know you've you've sort of finally found your calling and this is this what you want to do next, but in the weird way these things work, will you be disappointed on the next movie if you're only the producer or only the director or only the writer, or do you actually want to do sort of seven different very key roles yourself again?

SPEAKER_04 41:30

You know, um that's a really great question. Um I don't know. I I've never directed someone else's words before, so I guess I'm gonna have to try it um to see what that's like. Um, I know that it was very natural for me to write and to direct as far as the screenplay. Um, it was very easy for me as a first-time director to explain to an actor what the intention was. Like what's going on in this character's mind, you know, what's happening. That was very easy for me because I wrote the words. Um as far as the music, if it's a musical, I don't think I could stand not doing it because I would never think it was good enough. Um and I think I don't wish that on anybody uh to do the music for one of my musicals. Um that would just be torture for them. Um but I don't necessarily only want to do musicals. I enjoy the dramatic scenes in this movie as much as the musical scenes. Um so I think if anything, I would remove producer um from that list, uh music supervisor from that list, uh things, the the stuff, the day-to-day grind stuff that I just was so exhausting, contracts and all the stuff. And I was dealing with so much stuff that wasn't creative while I was doing all the creative for the movie, and that was too much. Um, I wouldn't do that again. It almost killed me, frankly. Um, and it's still stuff lingering and things you have to do as a producer. And um, so I would probably remove a couple of those titles for sure, but not the creative ones.

SPEAKER_03 42:59

I want to thank you for your, you know, these honesty. And I had just uh texted Dan in our chat saying this is absolutely one of my favorite episodes that we've we've we've got done. So you got to the heart of why we do this podcast and your vulnerability and your success, frankly. I mean, you're you're the perfect mix of somebody who's emotional because of the toll of the your journey while riding a wave that will hopefully lead to tremendous success. And you've already had tremendous success. So thank you for coming on. Which does unfortunately lead me to my last question. And this is the question we ask everybody that comes on this podcast. And if you could give one piece of advice to somebody joining the industry, and you've done a lot of things, so you can pick music, uh, film or TV director, writer, uh, what would that be?

SPEAKER_04 43:47

Uh be honest. Um, I think that's probably been been my um superpower my whole career is that I'm not only honest with others, but I've been honest with myself. Um And I think we lie to ourselves too much. We drink our own Kool-Aid. When we're not successful, it's always over everyone else's fault. But it it really probably isn't. You can probably do a better script or do a better song or do a better something. So be honest. And I think also being honest with others, the reason the actors trusted me as a director is because I've always been honest with them. So I think honesty is just something nobody talks about in this business. And I think it really is such a a superpower if you can harness it. And um yeah, just don't lie to yourself and don't lie to others. And I think uh you'll go far.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

Brilliant. Thank you. I mean um and I know I said it's one of his favorite episodes. This feels like the sort of case study you do when you're doing an MBA. It's not like the story of your career, like we're in the middle of it. You're between the influencer screening and the big moment. And the fact that you're tired and a bit emotional, uh, I think has made this an exceptional episode. So I really appreciate your time when I know you're incredibly busy. Um I think I'm obliged to say to people that uh obviously they should see the movie, but they should watch the trailer first because it was made by our mutual friend Jason. Um, and they should look at all the posters because they were made by our mutual friend Janice, which was great because at the end of the at the rap party, or the party you did downstairs, they made cookies with the uh artwork on it. So uh that was a very exciting moment in these weird ways. Hollywood have to come up with new ways of doing it.

SPEAKER_04 45:31

Only Hollywood can get you to eat your own work.

SPEAKER_01 45:33

Yeah, so she was literally eating her own work at the end of there. Um, and um, it's uh you know, as a British person, I was very excited when Melchior came on the screen. Um, and it was uh a comedian I grew up watching. Um and it's a saying that um Amin Jadali can't be doing promotion because he's brilliant and he would be uh great at promoting this movie, as would the rest of the cast. And as you say, it's a shame that you don't get that, but hopefully the strike is over while this is still in theaters.

SPEAKER_04 46:02

You know what? Hopefully it ends today, and they can at least we can get a shot in the arm on release day. Um but uh you know what? It's not over in the first weekend, so they'll have their opportunity to talk about it, I hope. And uh yeah, go check it out. I mean, uh it's a really fun movie, very proud of it, and I appreciate you guys having me on. And um, yeah, journey to Bethlehem. Here we go.

SPEAKER_01 46:24

Uh thank you. And your your journey to Journey to Bethlehem is uh is a brilliant story, very well told. So thank you very much, Adam, for your time. Thank you guys. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this episode of Screaming into the Hollywood Abyss brought to you by Scriptation. Thank you as ever to James Launch for the music, and thank you to our loyal listeners. And if there's any showrunners out there who want to hear their fellow showrunners abused uh and ruffled around and put under the microscope so you can hear their stories of rejection for failure and adversity, please send them our way. If you are interested in following us on social media, no, I've lost track.

SPEAKER_03 47:13

I am at NEBslyn on Twitter or X or whatever Elon Musk now calls it. And thanks to Elon Musk, I'm also at Noah Ebslin on Hive, Spoutable, Blue Sky, Threads, Mastodon, Myspace, French Stirp, and I'm sure a thousand more.