Take 36 - Showrunner Marc Guggenheim, Legends of Tomorrow, Arrow, Green Lantern

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for sure, dozens of unproduced scripts littering the floor.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

For every success, there is months, sometimes even years, of painful failure. This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default.

SPEAKER_02 0:31

That's the norm. You have to be able to persevere. It all bounces off you.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

That process takes years. That doesn't happen overnight. I was being told by my manager it's yours to lose, and I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking, like, well, that's it for me. I blew my one big shot. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. I am your co-host Dan Rutstein, who is now in a wardrobe full of clothes because I've had an attack of cicadas or cicadas, depending on how you pronounce it in this country, in my garage. So it's a good start to the evening. Noah, any insects ruining your night?

SPEAKER_02 1:22

No insects. I feel looking at you like we're about to start Chronicles of Narnia. Uh, but I'm doing uh really, really well and and I'm uh have no insects that are bothering me at this second, but I'm sure it could go bad at any moment. I am super excited, however, to introduce our next guest. Mark Guggenheim is a screenwriter, television producer, comic book writer, and novelist. He is best known as the co-creator of the television series Eli Stone, Arrow, and Legends of Tomorrow. He's also the executive producer of the animated series Tales of Arcadia, as well as the writer of the feature films Green Lanterns and Percy Jackson Sea of Monsters. On top of all that, he has over 30 other TV credits, including, but not limited to Law and Order, CSI Miami, Flash Forward, Green Lantern, The Flash, Carnival Row, Supergirl, and the most current incarnation of the Green Lantern coming soon, which I'm personally very excited about. Welcome, Mark. Hey, it's great to great to be here.

SPEAKER_04 2:17

This is really fun. Um, I really love this podcast. So this is this is it was very nice to be invited.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

Super. Well, look, I'm you know, I'm glad you're finding it fun, but we haven't started asking you mean questions yet. Um, so I think I'm gonna start with that.

SPEAKER_04 2:32

Okay, a mean question. Excellent, awesome, go for it.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Well, so no one's just read out your credits, and as like uh with a lot of other our guests, you've done some incredible things and a vast number of them, but you have volunteered to come on a podcast where we're not focusing on all of that sort of stuff. So here's I guess the question is it's not that mean, maybe, but when was the last time you had a conversation about the rejection and failure part of your career? Not just on a podcast, but in real life.

SPEAKER_04 3:03

Oh, great question. Well, first of all, in my defense, when you when you asked me to come on a podcast about rejection and failure, I thought you were talking about my life before I got married. Um so I had to shift a little bit to adjust it for the entertainment industry. Um, you know, to answer your question, I would say, you know, look, it's COVID, so I have no conception of time, but it to my recollection, this was like three or four months ago, I had tweeted out something about uh having a day where like three things got killed all at the same time. And um that was that was actually the last time I think I had a uh a conversation because someone had had you know DM'd me back like, you know, thank you for saying that. Like, thank you for tweeting that out. Like, you know, uh a lot of Hollywood writers are you know are are scared to, you know, basically publicly acknowledge their failures, your podcast notwithstanding. And I thought, oh wow, that's funny. Like I hadn't even really thought about when I sent the tweet. It was kind of like, you know, just sort of, you know, a little bit of a uh, you know, feeling down the dumps kind of tweet. But I'm I'm glad it had a positive effect, you know, that you know, I've been in therapy for like, you know, 20 years now. And my favorite part of therapy every time is when my therapist says, I want to normalize this for you. Like, I, you know, it's it's it's not misery loves company, but it's explaining like, no, this feeling you have that you think is so unique to you. It's not, it's this is incredibly common. I love hearing it's incredibly common.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

So the very successful showrunner and accomplished writer Mark Guggenheim saying I've lost three projects in a row and people being inspired by that is one thing. But 15 years ago, I know obviously Twitter hadn't been a particular cesspool hadn't been invented yet, but 15 years ago, if you were in a bar with other screenwriters, would you be as comfortable saying I've lost three things today? Or do you think it's only because you've now got enough success that it's easier to talk about when it doesn't work?

SPEAKER_04 5:15

Oh, that's a terrific question. Um, you know, it's kind of a little bit of baby in the burning building kind of question. Like, you know, unless you're truly faced with that situation, it's hard to know. Uh, you're asking me sort of like to retroactively, you know, I think I would be comfortable. I I've never been someone who was particularly good, I'll be honest, uh, about sort of projecting a certain image. Um, I've always been a wear my heart on my sleeve type of guy, and I've been a wear my heart on my sleeve type of writer. So just just knowing that about myself. Uh, I yeah, if I was in a bar, certainly if I was in a bar and had a couple of drinks, yeah, chances are I I probably would be pretty honest about because um that's just always been the way I've rolled. Um, for better or for worse.

SPEAKER_02 6:05

But I'm gonna go back. Um, this isn't a failure or success question, it's more of a hit your your history question, but very curious looking at your credits that you made, I'm not sure if you made if this was by choice or just by or by design or by just the way Hollywood works, but you went from sort of working on Law and Order and CSI Miami and pretty standard network procedurals. Uh, and I think if I'm not mistaken, you have a law background, but I do. Yeah. So maybe that that helped in those those early days. And then you pivoted to sort of fantasy, high fantasy, supernatural, a lot of really cool coveted genre stuff. Even before I would say genre was hot. You were like, you got in that field and now you've gotten some of the most coveted credits, you know, I've seen in a while. Was that an intentional career change, or was it by necessity?

SPEAKER_04 6:54

Very intentional and very purposeful. Um, I would say like I kind of did sort of two shifts. Um, the first was after my fourth year in the business, I was finishing my third year on law and order. I had done my first year on the practice. So that's like two law shows back to back. And I was at the end of my contract on law and order, and I very intentionally I said to my agents, like, you know, I could renew my contract at Law and Order, but I want to take a look around and I want to take a look around specifically for something character-oriented. I wanted to get out of law shows in general and procedurals specifically, because I didn't want to, you know, pigeonhole myself. Um, and and that is how I ended up on a show called Jack and Bobby, um, which, you know, we can talk about like a crazy murderer's row of writers. Um, and that moved me, uh it yeah, I like to joke, it it moved me out of procedurals uh and into character work, but it did keep me in shows with ampersands in the title, which I think is an important niche in my uh IMDB profile. I've got Law and Order, Jack and Bobby and Brothers and Sisters. So I like to consider myself an ampersand writer, but I very much wanted to get out of law shows and procedural shows. Um, and then after a couple of years of doing that, uh, when I started on Jack and Bobby, I started writing comic books on the side. Uh and it was after Eli Stone that I made a very intentional decision to, I wanted to sort of combine the comic book side of my career with the television side of my career. Um, and that led to shows like Flash Forward and Northern Family and then Arrow. Um, and and one could argue that uh I've overcorrected. Um, but but every time I've sort of made that kind of move, it was it was for better or for worse, very intentional.

SPEAKER_02 8:45

Now, was there ever a time, and we've had other guests on here who have spoken about making the similar type move from procedural network TV to genre, and then looking back at their careers, going, you know, you you left Law and Order, which is one of the most successful TV shows of all time, the CSI franchise, obviously, also this Bohemoth. Now, none of the shows you want on next, I mean, none of the shows that you went on next were unsuccessful by any means. But did you ever look back and going, wow, if I had spent 17 years on Law and Order, I would be, you know, financially in a completely different place, or did it all just work out for you? And you're like, you know what? I haven't this this has been the diverse career that I was hoping for.

SPEAKER_04 9:28

You know, uh that that's a terrific question. And I have a lot to say about. Um, because it's funny, like I know people who stayed on law and order, and they stayed on law and order for so many years that when it went off the air, their quote basically made them unhireable. So I was actually really glad to have left Law and Order. I I am generally speaking, when people ask me for advice, I always say that generally speaking, there's exceptions to every rule, that after three years, after the term of your contract, unless you're going to run the show, in my view, there's nothing really benefiting you from staying. Yes, it could be a great environment, and yes, it could be amazing money. Law and Order, when I was working on it, was particularly amazing money, but you're not actually developing your resume, you're not developing your wealth of experience. Like by the time I was finished with Law and Order, I could write literally break and write an episode in two days. Um, that that's all well and good, but I don't think it was really pushing me forward as a writer. Like, I don't think my craft was getting better. And at worst, I was a little concerned, is this making me lazy? You know, am I getting stuck in a rut? So a lot of my career is about pushing myself into different gigs, like where I go, ooh, I don't know if I can do this. You know, that if I if I have that feeling, that that's usually a pretty good indication I'm gonna end up taking that job.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

So this is where I jump in with a maybe a difficult question. Um so that principle, and it's interesting because obviously in a completely non-entertainment way, I've tried to follow a version of that in my career where when I think I'm good at something, I try and do something I'm not very good at. And often I'm right, and it's been tricky. Um so I guess when you've pushed yourself to do something that's outside your comfort zone, has it ever gone spectacularly wrong or even unspectacularly wrong?

SPEAKER_04 11:32

Oh, good question. Uh I'm trying to think. No, I don't think so. I'll tell you where it's gone spectacularly wrong, because that's the podcast. It's gone spectacularly wrong when I've taken a gig for the for the money. Um, and I'll tell you, like you mentioned CSI Miami. I'll be honest, I lasted four months on that show. Um, that was a show I didn't want to take the meeting. Um, my agents, you know, basically said, Oh, what's the harm in taking the meeting? Well, the harm in taking the meeting is is that you take the meeting, they want you, you say no, they keep coming back to you. Every time they come back to you, it's more and more money. Next thing you know, it's the head of Paramount calling up your agent saying, How much money does he want? Oh, and by the way, the guy in question, me, he had just had his first kid. And he's thinking, it's irresponsible for me to be turning down this much money. By the way, like the the show worked 20 minutes away from where I lived. Um, and you know, any writer in Hollywood will tell you a 20-minute commute is better than an overall deal. Like, you know, you can't get better than that. So I I I had like to joke, I took the money uh and I took the commute and I took the job, and it was horrible. I mean, I first of all, like, I'll be honest, I was embarrassed to tell people I worked on the show. And the showrunner um at the time uh was, you know, it was a CBS show, so it's kind of you know, cliche at this point, but um, it was an abusive, toxic work environment. The showrunner was a bully um who just went around the writer's room and like would ask for pitches and like just go bang, bang, bang, bang, like, you know, demeaning comment, demeaning comment, demeaning comment. Like, you know, if if that show were still on the air today and that showrunner was still working on the show, um, that showrunner would be fired. No, no question. Uh, so I quit after four months. And that was a a very good but very hard lesson. Never ever ever take the gig for the money. I don't care how responsible it feels. Um, you know, at the end of the day, if you are, you know, if you're miserable, um, you're not gonna be a very good parent. Um, and you know, even though, you know, my oldest was was an infant at the time, um, that was that was really what my wife told me, and she was absolutely right. Um, and I quit the next day.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

So there's too many different things for me to ask you about from the back of that. But I think the one I'm gonna pick, and I'm gonna pick this because in the 30-something episodes of this show, we've never talked about or really talked about uh parenting um and how it relates to this industry. Uh so you're the first guest to sort of say that. So I guess given it's a complicated career in Hollywood of rejection of failure and uncertainty of jobs, and in your case, when you try and get the money, it obviously didn't work. How much of your career, how many of your career choices were based around sort of your family situation in terms of when to work, when not to work? Um and were there times that you had jobs where even if it was a good job, because of something that's happening with the family, that it got more complicated?

SPEAKER_04 15:04

Well, well, I'll tell you, I'm gonna exponentially make your complicated question more complicated by mentioning that my wife is also a writer and a showrunner. So um you can imagine the conversations in our house. I I will say, because of the CSI Miami debacle, and because that happened relatively early on in my career, it was my like sixth year in the business. Um that was such an object lesson. Um, you know, and the thing about me is, you know, I I'm very slow on the uptake, but I only need to learn a lesson once. Uh so for me, the you know, the CSI Miami experience was very much uh a wake-up call of don't don't ever take a job for the money, don't ever do it. And and I really haven't. I mean, yes, if if something comes up, do I talk it out with my wife? Of course. Um, but usually the conversation is is more along the lines of can I take this on on top of the 20 million other things I'm doing? And is that responsible? And will I have time for her and our daughters? And is something like, oh, I really don't want to take this gig, but you know, I I feel like I need to in order to put food on the table.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

So I guess a question about going back to the this is where I was gonna go, my other option after your showrunner story. So bad showrunners are you're not the only person to have had one.

SPEAKER_04 16:40

Um, they're leading actually, I think I think they're more the rule than the exception.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

Um and so obviously the bullying and abusive part of it is uh is one part, but also, and we've talked about this quite a lot on the podcast, that no one's ever really trained for these roles anyway. So even if you're not a mean person, you might just be out of your debt, not know how to deal with situations and so on. Um so yeah, as you say, it's probably there's probably more bad showrunners than good ones. Having had a bad one, and it sounds like a particularly bad one, and relatively early in your career, when you became a showrunner, what did you how did you showrun based on what you learned from that experience? And how informative was that for you? Great, great question.

SPEAKER_04 17:24

I, you know, I've I was lucky after before CSI Miami, I had I had the good fortune to work on Jack and Bobby, where Greg Berlante was the showrunner. Um, so I I had the opportunity to really learn at the foot of the master, like someone who who really, you know, is a great showrunner. Um, but it's funny, you know, um, I had asked Greg, you know, because Greg had, you know, when we got to know each other, he told me, you know, sort of his experience coming up. And I'm like, it sounds like you never had anyone, you know, to really model good showrunning for you. How did you become such a good showrunner? And he he said basically, like, I learned to do the opposite of everything I saw. Um, and and that's really, you know, the the trick, which is, you know, if you have the good fortune as I did to work with a a great showrunner, then you know, you kind of get the answers to the test. Um, if you work for some bad showrunners, as I have, um, you basically go, okay, I'm just gonna do the exact opposite. Um, you know, look, it's I always say, you know, shortrunning is hard, but it's not rocket science. There's, you know, I don't consider myself a particularly smart individual, and and I feel like I do a very good job, you know, shortrunning. I I don't think it's you know, it requires a genius. Um, for example, I don't think it really requires a genius to, if you want to get good pitches out of your staff, don't berate them when they pitch. Like don't don't make fun of them, don't you know antagonize them, don't you know, belittle every creative impulse they have, which is really how it went down at CSI Miami. I the funny thing is, like the the writers at CSI uh Miami were like, wow, you don't seem to be scared at all to pitch. Like, you know, you you just she shoots you down and you just keep going. And I'm like, yeah, because at the end of the day, nobody should make you feel stupid for your creative instincts. Like, you know, it's terrible that they do that, but you have to, you know, not give them that power. Um, so anyway, I I'm sorry, I I went on a tangent, which I noticed a lot of your guests don't do. I I'm, you know, I said before the recording, uh, I'm very intimidated. All of your guests seem incredibly articulate and very well spoken. And um I'm just trying to keep up.

SPEAKER_02 19:51

Well, you're doing a great job so far. I'm gonna get into some specific sort of failure and rejection questions in a second, but I want to stay on this showrunner theme for just one more minute. Do you feel that at the root of every bad showrunner it's it's insecurity? Like they're they're insecure in their own craft, or doesn't some people just like the position of power? And it and I've seen people change, I've seen amazing people turn into horrible people the moment they they they make that jump. And it's just it's sort of it's a bit scary to be honest, like like what power can do to somebody.

SPEAKER_04 20:26

Well, you know, the the unfortunate truth is there are a lot of bad showrunners, but there are also a lot of different types of bad. So there's the there's the abusive bad, which I do agree with you really does stem from insecurity. There's the um drunk on power bad, which, you know, if I'm being honest, probably also, you know, uh stems from insecurity. But then there's also the indecisive showrunner, like the really, really, really nice showrunner who um just for the love of God cannot make a decision. Um, and and to to those three, I'm gonna add a fourth, which is the unhappily married showrunner. Um, this is a showrunner who's actually a very good person and a very nice person, but dear lord, they don't want to go home. Um, and because they don't want to go home, they are gonna keep you at the office like until you know the sun comes up. Um, and you know, that that's not, you know, it's not being a jerk, but it's not great. Um, and that's you know, relatively common too. I always, you know, tell show, you know, tells writers who are are are you know going out for staffing, do your due diligence. Find out if they actually, you know, want to go home. Um, because if they don't want to go home, you're you're in for some really long evenings.

SPEAKER_02 21:55

I've I've heard that as well, and I've taken that to heart. The um the Uh going to uh fast forwarding a little bit to where we are today in your career, you mentioned three uh pitches that went awry all at once. And I've heard from so many people, and and this was my experience as well, you know, that the pandemic year was was harder than most. And I got really lucky to get on a show. And and it's, you know, not a lot of people, some very talented writers are still, you know, circling because it's just been an unusual year. And some extremely talented showrunners and creators had huge pitches they worked on for however long, just sort of crash and burn. So, what is it like for somebody like you who has proven himself over and over again? I I can write a show, it's gonna be good, people are gonna watch it. I'm I've had I'm sure you've had some misses, but in general, you you have a very strong resume. So, what happens now sort of emotionally for you when you you get rejected and then you get rejected again and again? I mean, it what do you begin to doubt yourself? What's the process that you go through?

SPEAKER_04 23:04

Well, you know, that that's a really good question. Um, you know, I I will say that that, you know, the the the thing I like about my career is that I work in a lot of different mediums and I work on a lot of different projects at once. Um the bad thing about that is that means there are gonna be days where just the stars align and everything goes to shit at the same time. Um and when that happens, I I first try to remind myself, look, you know, that's you know, that that's kind of the problem. Like if you buy a bunch of lottery tickets, you've got to be prepared that a bunch of lottery tickets are gonna be losers. And all the losers may get scratched off. I'm completely butchering this analogy, um, you know, on the same day. And you you've just got to, you know, you you you have to accept that as that's part of the gig. Um, you know, I I've been doing this a long time, and I I'm finally at the place, it's taken a lot of therapy and a lot of years and a lot of work to get to the place where I actually think I'm a I'm a good writer. Like, you know, I actually think I'm not a you know, a fraud and I'm not, you know, faking my way through it as I did, as I felt like for many years. Um, but there's there's an aspect of this business that is out of your control and it's out of everyone's control. There, there's a luck factor that you just, you know, have got to accept. And I'll be honest, there's days where I'm very zen about it, um, I'm sanguine, and I go, okay, you know what, that's just life. There's other days where I think, you know, my luck is the worst luck in the world. Um, you know, it's funny, I I got a text from someone, a friend of mine, uh today, and we were texting back and forth. And I want to, I want to read it carefully because I like, oh my God, does she know I'm going on this podcast? Um and and she wrote, It kind of blows my mind that more of your stuff hasn't made it to series. Um, and I'm like, yeah, that's that's kind of true. Um, I I've got a, you know, I got a lot of you know, failed pilots on my resume. Um, you know, it's a tough business, and part of the reason that it's tough is there are a whole multitude of factors that are not in your control. It is not a meritocracy by any stretch. Um, and a lot of times you've got to just go, okay, you know, this is the business I chose. Um, it's it's not fair. Uh, you know, a lot of times the results are not right. Um, you know, you take a few days um where you you feel sorry for yourself. I certainly do. Um, and then, you know, somehow, some way you pick yourself up and you just keep going. Uh, you know, I I I've been fired from a bunch of gigs. Um, I've had a lot of stuff not go. I've had a lot, I mean, you you pick the right guy to be on your podcast. I've had a lot of failures. Um, and in every single case, you you know, you have this moment where you go, okay, yes, that sucked. That was horrible. How do I, you know, pick myself up and keep going? What am I gonna go work on?

SPEAKER_02 26:28

Well, I want to stay, I want to stay on that for one more second. I I read a number of years ago that it surprised me that uh TV writers and screenwriters, I think actually it was just TV writers, uh, is number five in a list of the unhappiest professions. And it was well above, you know, on the scale of being unhappy, uh like morticians and plumbers and retail. And I'm like, this is a dream job for so many people. So many people are are rushing to try to become this thing and are working really hard. And and when you're in it, I had to kind of recalibrate recently too, and being like, this is my dream. I'm in my even on my bad days, it's it's a good place to be, but really begin to question, am I happy? And the answer was yes, I am happy, but I have to remember that I'm happy, that this is amazing. And I'm gonna throw that question back to you on a on an overall scale. Does this job that you're doing make you happy? Uh, or what is it that makes people miserable?

SPEAKER_04 27:31

Well, for me, the good news is that on that list that you read, I was one of the other professions above above writer, which was lawyer. You are, yeah. So uh and and I will say on my darkest days as a lawyer, the thing that got me through it was the realization that I wasn't going to be a lawyer for the rest of my life. And one day I will end up, you know, in another job, and it'll by comparison just be easier. And truth be told, the my best day as a lawyer is still worse than my worst day as a writer. Um, you know, it's not to say that I haven't had some really bad days as a writer, but you know, it it is, you know, we're lucky to do this. Um, and and that's you know, it sounds trite, but it's very meaningful. It really, I it I find it gets me through the darkest times to be like, I get to write, I get to do this thing that I enjoy doing. Um, and you know, I may, I may face, you know, people who make me feel horrible about myself, I may face disappointment, I may, you know, face, you know, obstacles and and all sorts of issues. But at the end of the day, I get to do the thing I love to do. Um, and and to the point where like if I if I go a couple of days without writing, I kind of turn into a dick. I mean, ask my wife and kids, like, you know, I get unpleasant um when I haven't been writing for a while. So to do something that I not only enjoy doing but need to do, and I get paid for it, like, you know, if you're talking about trade-offs, that's an easy trade-off. You know, it's it's you know, I don't have to really think terribly hard about it. But look at the same time, it's a hard business. It's a hard business. Um, and like I said earlier, it's not a meritocracy, it's not fair. Um, you know, but you know, I I really do think that the people who stay in it stay in it for the love of the game. Um, and I'm certainly one of those people.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

Fantastic. May I say that was a particularly articulate answer. Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 29:56

That was that was that was don't it's it's downhill from here, you know, but I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

So when you are successful as you are, when you get the rejections now, what is it about them that upset you? Because obviously we've uh we've had people on who talk about sort of the middle stage of their career where the you know the rejection means they're not quite sure how they're gonna pay the mortgage for a year and so on. But now when you're getting rejected, is it a sort of oh that was a shame, that project would have been nice for me? Is it a that was a piece of IP I really cared about? Is it this was you know, I'm trying to build my legacy and uh I'm not gonna get to do it with this one? So what the what do the rejections mean to you now that it's uh you're at a different level?

SPEAKER_04 30:47

Well, well, the the first thing is um it took a long time um until I was even able to think of myself as successful, even after I was objectively successful. Um, and and I'm talking like in the past month, like, you know, my my therapist uh, you know, and I have been sort of working on just accepting the idea that I'm successful. Like I and look, I I know how this sounds, and you know, but I'm just being honest. Like, you know, when someone would say I'm success, you know, that I'm successful, it would uh kind of spike my anxiety and I would I would feel like a fraud and I I would you know immediately reject it. And uh in the you know, last like month or so uh of therapy, I've sort of been trying to sort of work through it. And and truth be told, my my therapist, uh the advice she gave me that was kind of a breakthrough was basically like just for a week try thinking that you're successful, like just for a week accept it, like you know, acknowledge it. And I gotta tell you, that was kind of game-changing for me because you know, but for that advice, I I'd probably answer this question very differently, starting with, what are you talking about? I'm not successful. Um, but now yes, I think I can kind of acknowledge that I'm successful. Um, so when when something doesn't go, it yes, it's not an existential threat. It's not a threat to my livelihood or my ability to provide for my family. Um, what it generally is, is sort of two things. It's goddamn, I worked really hard on that script and I am disappointed. Um or it's something like that script was gonna help me level up. Um and so that was like a missed opportunity. Um, and then you know, third category is I just really wanted to see that script, you know, performed. I wanted to see that, you know, put on speed. Even if, you know, let's say it was a pilot, like even if the pilot didn't get picked up to series, I still wanted to shoot it, you know. I wanted to actually see it come to fruition. Um, you know, it it the the rejections come in a variety of different forms, and the reactions to the rejections come in a variety of different forms.

SPEAKER_01 33:21

So I guess last question from me therapy. So you are not the first guest to talk about their therapist on the podcast. I'm joined it. I um I actually quite like to invite your therapist on. She sounds very good, but I'm not sure we're allowed to do that.

SPEAKER_04 33:41

Okay, here's the funny thing about my therapist. I'm not even kidding about this. She doesn't watch television. And I've been like off and on, she's been my therapist for 20 years. And there are times where I'm like, how is it you're my therapist? Like, like, because I know a lot of therapists who like, you know, they treat a lot of other writers or they, you know, they know the business really well. Like, like I'm literally explaining the basics of the business to my therapist. And it's like, it's kind of funny. And I'll you can guys can edit this out if it's completely stupid. But like when I was working on law and order, she would always default like LA law. She would like say, like, you know, or back when you were working on LA law, I'm like, I never worked on LA law, but now, right now, I'm developing a reboot of LA law.

SPEAKER_03 34:34

And she's like, So on LA, so on Law and Order, I'm like, no, no, no, it was law and order before, but it's LA Law now, and before you thought it was LA Law and it was really law and order. Come on.

SPEAKER_04 34:45

Um, it's it's kind of funny. You know, she's she's been my therapist for you know 20 years. It's honestly like in terms of moving to LA and having long-term relationships in Los Angeles, it's it's my therapist and my wife. Um, you know, so uh I'm sorry, I've taken us all on a crazy tangent.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

That's that's fascinating. I'm not sure she helps your anxiety levels if she keeps getting your show names wrong. But other than that, she sounds very good.

SPEAKER_04 35:11

So, you know, again, another thing you can another thing you can uh you can cut out, but on the pilot of Eli Stone, I had a uh a non-speaking cameo. And there's only three people in the world who uh saw the pilot and didn't recognize me. That would be my therapist, my mother, and my father.

SPEAKER_01 35:32

Make of that what you will. So I guess back to the therapist. So I don't want to breach patient therapists.

SPEAKER_04 35:43

I've completely thrown confidentiality right out the window.

SPEAKER_01 35:46

But I mean I was about to ask the last question, which is you know, if you could give one piece of advice, uh I don't know, is it get a therapist? Like how much has having a therapist made the career you've had possible?

SPEAKER_04 36:01

That's a great question. Um here's the thing I always tell people it's not about getting a therapist. That that that decision I think is relatively easy. The the harder thing, the far more important thing is actually do the work in therapy. Um, I I know a lot of people who have who've been in therapy for years, but they're not like you can honestly you can chew up 50 minutes an hour pretty easily, um, talking about yourself or whatever, you know. Um therapy really is is one of those classic situations where you you only get out what you put into it, and you've you've got to be willing to be honest with your therapist. And I know that sounds axiomatic, but there's a lot of people who have a difficult time doing that. You've got to be honest with your therapist, you've got to be honest with yourself, you've got to, you know, you have to have a therapist who will, you know, tell you the truth and and you've got to be willing to accept it. Uh, it's not, you know, it's not like going to a car mechanic where you know your car is fixed. Like there's there's a lot of give and take that goes into therapy. Um, you know, to answer your question, I'm a I'm a big believer in therapy, but therapy as as I've defined it, as an experience that you're actually really, you know, investing yourself in and dedicating yourself to. Um, is it, you know, is it responsible for the level of success I've had? That's a fantastic question, which I'll be honest, I haven't really thought of. Um I I, you know, having not thought of it, I will say the answer is probably yeah. I mean, you know, uh therapy has made me a better person, it's made me a better husband, it's made me a better father. And all of those things have contributed to making me a better writer and showrunner. Um, so um, yeah, I I, you know, that was that was uh, you know, that was time and money well spent, I think.

SPEAKER_01 38:06

I hope you give her a uh with very special thanks to at the end of your next show.

SPEAKER_04 38:11

Uh I will, you know, I'll tell you though, I mean, if if she doesn't watch television, I'm pretty sure she doesn't listen to podcasts either. Um, but uh I I will I will absolutely mention it because you know, she'll at the very least, she'll find it very, very humorous.

SPEAKER_02 38:26

Be prepared to get a lot of DMs from people asking you for this person's phone number, including myself, as she gets every single writer and aspiring writer and mid-level writer going, well, if she was responsible for Mark's success, then she's the um, but we are we are running to the point, you know, in this podcast where unfortunately I need to ask the final question, which Dan has already semi-teed up. But the question is, which we ask every guest is if you were gonna give one piece of advice to an aspiring, in your case, writer, what would that be?

SPEAKER_04 39:01

Well, I I kind of alluded to it earlier, which is don't take a job just for the money. And I I know, look, I'm a straight white guy, I have a lot of privilege. Um, that's an easy bit of advice to give. But I will say, no, no matter what your race, gender, background is, if you take a gig for the money, it's gonna end up being an unhappy experience. It's it's gonna end up being an unpleasant experience. Um, and it it, you know, the the corollary to that advice is you have to have to have to bet on yourself. Um, especially at the beginning, because at the beginning, no one's gonna bet on you. You you have to bet on yourself. Um, and you know, one way that manifests is not taking the first gig that comes along, not taking a gig just for the money. Um, you know, bet on yourself, believing yourself. And I will say that's that's a piece of advice I have given myself and followed over the course of my career. So, like it's that that advice is it's it's for all seasons. It's not, you know, believing yourself and betting on yourself, that is, is something that pays dividends, whether you're just starting out or mid-level or a showrunner or Greg Berlante. Like, you know, always do that and you will you'll always end up coming out on top.

SPEAKER_01 40:29

Brilliant. Excellent. Well, look, Mark Guggenheim, the very articulate writer who only seems to thank you. Thank you. Dan, the checks in the mail. Well, a writer who only seems to want to work on shows with Amper Sands and that don't overpay him. Thank you very much for being part of the podcast.

SPEAKER_04 40:47

Thank you. This was a lot of fun. It's it's a great podcast, guys. You guys are really, you know, you're not only you know producing a very entertaining podcast and a very informative podcast, but uh, I think you're performing a public service as well. So thank you really very much for uh for doing the podcast and for inviting me on. Thank you, thank you, Mark.

SPEAKER_01 41:08

Thank you for listening to another one of our fantastic episodes. Yet again, I think you'll find that I ask better questions than Noah. Noah, have you got anything to say?

SPEAKER_02 41:18

Um, as always, uh, since you've done most of the talking, I'm just gonna sit here quietly again.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

Surely there's some people to thank.

SPEAKER_02 41:26

Oh, right, right, right, right. Uh, I would love to thank James Launch for doing all of our outro music. Um, as always, I think we owe a big thank you to both of our wives who support us through this endeavor that started in our basement and seems to be ever growing. And if you want to reach out to either Dan or I, I am at at NEBslin on Twitter. I'm not sure Dan has a Twitter account. Dan, do you have a Twitter account?

SPEAKER_01 41:50

I mean, I I do, but no one cares. All they care about is being on Noah's podcast. So well done, Noah, for conceiving, producing, editing, writing, and asking the best questions of the two of us because you've done all this work and well done you.

SPEAKER_02 42:04

I do think it's worth pointing out after 33 or so episodes that I do both voices. There actually is no Dan Redstein. WANKA!