Take 25 - Writer Akela Cooper, Luke Cage, The 100

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for sure, dozens of unproduced scripts littering the floor.

SPEAKER_03 0:13

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_02 0:20

For every success, there is months, sometimes even years, of painful failure. This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default.

SPEAKER_03 0:31

That's the norm. You have to be able to persevere. Like everything in our business, your hands can count.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

That process takes years, that doesn't happen overnight. I was being told by my manager it's yours to lose, and I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking, like, well, that's it for me. I blew my one big shot. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_02 0:59

Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. I am Dan Rutstein, doing reasonably successfully in my non-entertainment world at the moment. Noah, how are you?

SPEAKER_03 1:14

I'm doing well, trucking away. Currently on a show, can't complain right now. For this second, I will take the win. Uh, I would like to uh I'm I'm thrilled. We have a great guest on today. We have the screenwriter and TV writer Akella Cooper. Akela has staffed on 13 shows, including, but not limited, to Grim, The Hundred, American Horror Story, Luke Cage, Jupiter's Legacy, as well as the upcoming Star Trek Strange New Worlds. She also wrote the upcoming feature films Malignant, Megnant, Megan, and The Nun Two. Welcome, Akella.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Hi, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Well, thank you for thank you for joining us, uh, given that you know what this podcast is actually about. So um I'm gonna go in with a question, not a uh necessarily a straightforward rejection question, but I'm gonna do an adversity question. So see, you worked on Luke Cage. Um when you're working on projects in that universe, given the scrutiny from everybody, from fans and so on, what what is your mindset how do I make this as brilliant as possible? Or is it how do we do this so we don't get deluged with complaints from fans who think we know the story better than you do?

SPEAKER_01 2:29

I think I was in a like oddly enough for this, I was in a good place of ignorance because I don't remember or recall exactly how popular Luke Cage was as a character. I know he had a fan base, uh, especially as it was like built around the 70s. Like he was Marvel's black exploitation character that they were trying to capitalize on. And then you also had Iron Fist, which they were trying to capitalize on, the uh the kung fu movie craze at the time. So for us, it was just like there wasn't it wasn't like Iron Man or you know, Captain America, where there was always that, or Spider-Man, I should say, where like those fans will come at you and they will come at you hard, uh, as well as another comic book company that shall not be named, whose fans are like very, very uh rabid about how their characters are portrayed. So originally we had kind of a little bit of leeway, and we had a great leader in Cheo Coker, who had a very specific vision for how he wanted to interpret uh Luke Cage as a modern day character. And maybe because the character, like uh Cheo had such a specific vision and the character was black. Uh, Marvel gave us leeway in that. Now, there were some times they would step in and be like, no, just no, you can't, you can't do that. Uh, but for the most part, we we got to make the Luke Cage that our showrunner and the staff wanted to make.

SPEAKER_03 3:52

I I I love Cheo. He's one of my favorite people. Uh, he's he's amazing. I've been actually trying to get him to come on here. He's promised to come on. We're gonna get him on.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

We will shame him. I will text him after this and be like, hey, guess what podcast I did?

SPEAKER_03 4:04

Yeah, we need to get we need to get his stories on here. Uh, you know, speaking of stories, one of the reasons I reached out to you was I saw you uh a line, uh a string of thread of tweets over time where you were pitching uh a project uh and you were talking very openly about your failures and successes. And it seemed like your MO was similar to the MO of this podcast, which is to be more open about how hard the process is for everybody. Um is that true? Is that true?

SPEAKER_01 4:29

It is, and like you follow a lot of writers on Twitter, as do I, and I notice like a lot of my compatriots will do like like ask me anything and these QA's and then just like give out advice. I'm not necessarily a give out advice person because like everyone's uh process and experience in this business is so subjective, like and it's like pretty much unique to you. So I'm just like, you know, opinions advice, you can take it or leave it. But when I started the project, it was two things. One, it was a way for like me to keep track of it and have some fun with it and just you know, openly track the progress. And then yeah, I'm like, this is how I can contribute to like let people know, hey, this is what it's like, at least for me. And like there are going to be hits and there are gonna be misses. I didn't realize there were gonna be so many misses, uh, but that's just how it ended up, you know, working out. And it was still it was it was fun to get the feedback and and fun to see that like a lot of especially young writers were comforted by the thread. Uh, because I know even when you're working on staff, a lot of times when you're taking out stuff, like writing is still a solitary uh act, and you can feel alone in this business a lot. And so I'm really, really proud and happy that I was able to like make people feel less alone uh in this process. If anything, you know, there's there's that good that came out of it.

SPEAKER_02 5:52

So I'm gonna ask uh your words less alone. So I'm gonna ask a sort of loneliness question. So writing can be a very solitary uh pursuit. Obviously, I know I've we've talked to people in the show, and Noah's talked a lot about when he's in a writer's room, the the camaraderie that comes with all of that. Now, obviously, getting into those rooms is difficult, um, but when you're in them, it's wonderful. In the pandemic, everyone's been working from home, even obviously people in the writers' rooms have been working from home. Has this sort of loneliness as a writer plus the pandemic? How have you dealt with that, the alone part?

SPEAKER_01 6:38

It's been tough. It is it has been tough. I I am the person who I enjoy a writer's room. I enjoy being in the writer's room. And there is that camaraderie, and you know, you'll see it like on the Twitter threads, those of us who are like, When can we get back to the writer's room? It's you know, it's not just like necessarily being in the room, it's all the stuff that comes with being in that environment. It's meeting new people, especially it's like if you there are people on staff you've never worked with before, you've never met with, uh, getting to make new friends uh and networking in that way, bouncing ideas off of people who have different perspectives than you. Uh, and also it's like the the little things where it's like when you have a break and then going into another writer's office and just like hanging out and shooting the shit and getting to know them that way, or going to the kitchen and you know, talking about the last thing you just talked about and discovering it's like, oh, hey, we just came up with a solution to this problem, or we just came up with like a really fun pitch. You can't do that on Zoom, like there are no sidebars that you can have, there's no going to hang out with someone that you can do. It's all just like you're staring at, you know, faces in squares on a screen for hours at a time. And I eventually adjusted, but in the beginning, it was really difficult because I was in a writer's room when lockdown happened, and then we moved to a virtual room. And just like after I think it was like two days, I'm just like, why am I exhausted? Like, I'm technically doing the same thing I was doing. I don't understand like why I have a headache, why I'm so tired. And then it's like, oh, like articles started coming out. It's like, yeah, no, being on camera and doing Zoom rooms and stuff like that, it's it's mentally taxing uh because your brain is like, I should be with people right now and I'm not. And I miss that. And there's this cognitive dissonance that you have to get over while also being creative. Um, and so yeah, for me, like as someone who enjoys that environment, it was it was a really hard transition. And I'm hoping that California continues going in the right direction so that you know, at some point, if I sell a show, uh, I could open a writer's room, a real one.

SPEAKER_03 8:42

I I have a connected question to what Dan just asked, and you really kind of made me think because I've been going through the same thing where you just feel exhausted at the end of the day. And someone can make the argument that our lives are now easier as writers, our rooms don't tend to be as long, and we're not commuting anymore to the writer's room or commuting to pitches. So the whole thing can be, you know, you can be in your kitchen five minutes earlier and then you're in into the meeting and you're beginning. But I get the sense from you that you feel like it's harder uh, you know, on you as an individual. But do you also think it's harder as a business right now to sell, to move, just to like make the moves that people used to make uh before the pandemic?

SPEAKER_01 9:22

I'm not sure how it's how it's affected the business because Hollywood is one of those things where it's like it, it's the entity that always tries to get back to the status quo no matter what you do. So things are, you know, meetings are happening and they are selling. And I will say, like for the the first part of your question where it's like hours in the room are shorter. Yes, they are and they are more focused. But I will say for those people who, you know, have those meandering hours, that's probably a problem with your showrunner. Like that is the responsibility of your showrunner to get shit done, or whoever is like responsible for the room that day. And I will say, like, just because you're in a Zoom room does not mean necessarily you're not gonna meander or waste time. It has and can happen. Just am I speaking from experience or talking about something I've heard from other people? I'm gonna leave that to y'all's imagination. Um, but the commute, I understand the commute, like commuting is always hard. Though for me, I realized just working on my own personal stuff, like and and I've seen this from other writers, and and you might also have felt this. It's like I wasn't as creative in my own stuff. It's one thing working for the show, that is the job, that's what you're doing. But when it came time to like turn my brain to my own stuff, it was just like like just complete mush. And I wasn't thinking creatively. And on a phone call with my mom, I had the epiphany that I was like, oh, it's because I don't have my daily routine anymore, which is driving to work. And once you have that routine, there's something about the human brain that'll just like when you're driving and you know where you're going, you'll go on autopilot. And then there's another part of your brain, like for creative people, where we'll start thinking of creative things. And like that is a thing that I've come to like to do, which is like, all right, I'm going into the office however I'm gonna get there. I'll listen to music, I'm on autopilot, but I'm also thinking of like dialogue or scenes. And then if you know, at a stoplight, I'll write them down in notes or uh when I get to the office, I'll write it down. I'll do the same thing when I get home. And that's how I, you know, creatively develop stuff in my head. It's like that that hour or whatever of my commute, I also dedicated to being creative in my own stuff. And then it's like I didn't have that anymore. And so sitting at home all day and like staring at my computer, there was no way for me to like go on autopilot and you know, have the other part of my brain. It's like, all right, we're gonna think about this feature we want to write, or we're gonna think about this pilot. So yeah, it was like knowing that it's like, okay, so now I have to figure out a new way to like activate the creative part of my brain. Um I but there are pros and cons. I mean, I think a lot of people would probably like something of a hybrid, where maybe you only go into the room like three or four days a week, and then one or two days are Zoom, and we can test that out. But I I have a feeling, and this might just be the writer's bubble that I'm in. There are a lot of us who are like, we want to get back into rooms and be physically present with people again. Like that's where we work the the best.

SPEAKER_02 12:32

You you made a fascinating point, which has been the there's been a lot written about this thing about why people have been so tired over the last year. And there's this whole psychology around the amount of time your brain needs to spend processing things that are new and complicated now, like and how to use Zoom and why am I not having a shower today, and all the stuff that is a bit different, and the fact that yeah, you you do some of your best thinking when you're driving because you're just on this autopilot or you're getting your morning coffee. So it's it is fascinating, it has been hard because I mean I guess for you, obviously, when you're uh even when you're in the room, you're doing these outside projects. Um how have you managed to because you can't just recreate your routine, how have you what have you tried to do to stimulate yourself to be creative? Like what sort of things have you done to break out of the funk that everyone's been in?

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Taking walks around the neighborhood helps, uh, even though I can't like fully go on autopilot because I have to be aware of my environment. Um making a point to whenever I hit like some sort of block, uh get up and walk around uh showering helps. Like whether or not you need it just like getting in the shower, it's like, all right, let's think of something. Uh I I am, I guess, very auditory. I don't know if there's a term for it, but like I need noise in my life. Uh, and so music. I usually write to music. Uh, and so putting on my headphones and just kind of like walking back and forth or up and down the hall, uh, usually with like a stress ball or something in my hand, a tennis ball uh to toss around, uh, which is oddly what I did when I was an adolescent, uh, and I had just discovered I liked writing. Like my mom uh can attest to this. I would just like run up and down the halls uh throwing balls everywhere. And then I had like a little notepad and I would write down my idea. So it's basically I the pandemic had me revert to the creative crutches that I used as a teenager. Um, once again. So that's and it has helped. And it's also I am a night person. And now that we don't necessarily have a set schedule, uh, and my my room for Star Trek has ended, I've also gone back to like staying up late at night because that's a lot of times when uh my creative, my creativity kicks in. It's like nine o'clock. And normally I've been like, all right, we're gonna have to save this for the drive to work tomorrow. We need to go to bed so we can get up. Uh, but now it's like, nope, I'll stay up till like one in the morning writing down ideas. So it's it's it's a regression in a way. And it's gonna be weird when I have to like, all right, now I have to go back to the adult way of being creative.

SPEAKER_03 15:22

I so I'm looking at your your IMDB profile, and you mentioned your mom a few questions ago. So have you it looks like you know you've worked fairly steadily, you've been on a ton of shows, you're doing a bunch of movies now. So from your IMDB, you know, resume, I would say, okay, this has been an amazing run for you. However, we all know that the IMDB page doesn't tell the full story. Has there been a time in the last nine or 10 years since you've been working professionally that you called your mom and was like, this isn't working out for me, or this isn't the job for me, or I just like I'm I'm gonna throw in the towel because either the room is really difficult or you're just on one of those gaps or lulls that we all fall into sometimes?

SPEAKER_01 15:59

Yes. Uh I'll I'll try to keep this as vague as possible. There was a show a couple of years ago. It was just not working. Uh, I was an upper level writer and it was just problem after problem and stressful day after stressful day. And it was, it turned out to be the first show that I walked away from. And I walked away because when I was looking at the remainder of uh my contract, like the weeks that I had on the show, it was just I was like, I'm not gonna make it. I'm not gonna make it in this environment. Um my my mental health was draining, I would say deteriorating. I wasn't sleeping, I wasn't eating, I lost weight, uh, not the good way. I remember hanging out with friends. I can't remember, it was at Arc Light and I can't remember what movie it was. Um, but everyone was like, we we were in the restaurant, and everyone was having drinks and and eating food, and I had ordered something, and then I was just like talking to people, and my food was just sitting there. And one of my friends turned to me and is like, Are you are you okay? Because it's been like 30 minutes and you haven't touched any of your food. I'm like, you know what? I'm just not hungry. You want it? He was like, No, I want you to eat. And that was like, Oh shit, yeah, I should probably. And I was like, I think he asked me, he's like, When was the last time you ate something? I was like, I think I had like a protein shake this morning, and and that was it. And so that was I had several calls with my mom. And it's weird because like I I come from like Missouri farm folk, like my mother was a school teacher, my father was a farmer, and they instilled, you know, the value of hard work in me. And so quitting was not necessarily something that I was raised to do. And so I was like reconciling like my upbringing also with the fact that my mom was like, You pursued this job, you wanted this job. I was like, Yes, I know that, but it's terrible. And it was like all of this, like I was working off of guilt as well, because we do bust our asses to like work up the hierarchy of the ladder and like get these jobs that pay us very well. Uh, and then to get there, and it's like what I wanted is actually a nightmare, was just it was it was tough. And so, yeah, it was many, many a phone call with my mom, and finally I'm like, I want to quit. And she was like, Look, your health is more important than anything. Like, that's what that's what she cared about. And she's like, That's what you should care about. If it's not working, it's not working. And then the other thing, and and I'm thankful for this, it's like this was before the uh the WGA kerfuffle with the agencies. And so I had my agents at the time, and I I am one of those lucky writers that I had really good supportive agents. And one of the things my writer buddies were like, You're gonna go to your agents and they're gonna tell you no, they're gonna tell you to stick it out because they want that money, they don't want to cause a problem with the studio. I finally reached a point where I'm like, I can't do this. And I had I had kept my agents in the loop as to what was going on, so they were aware that I was not happy. This didn't come out of nowhere. And I will say, as a piece of advice, like always be honest with your reps. So at least you have some kind of hopefully paper trail, like email them as well, uh, of what you have been going through. So, you know, they can't be like, Well, you you're bringing this up out of nowhere. It's like, no, no, we've talked about this. Uh, so like one night, like after I reached my breaking point, I called my agent and I'm like, I can't do this anymore. And to my relief, he was like, Okay, we'll pull you out of it. And then the next day, it was, you know, conversation with my manager, my lawyer, and my agents about how we were gonna do this. And then ultimately I left this uh toxic environment. And I was relieved. It was massive relief. Um, I thought I was gonna feel like a failure, and I know this is what your podcast is about, but like ultimately walking away made me feel better about myself. Uh, and I understood my value, myself, and what I was gonna tolerate and what I was not gonna tolerate, and everything got better. So it was it was a successful failure, I will say that.

SPEAKER_02 20:13

So I've got two questions. You know, we can we can't talk about you can't say things like that and not expect on this podcast some a hard follow-up question. So, you know, you signed up for this. So um, I guess uh particularly as an outsider, I'm not we're not expecting you to tell us a show, obviously, that's not what this is about. But the when it was a very difficult environment, are we talking sort of uh toxic and abusive leadership? Are we talking just a very difficult project? Are we talking about what is it that made it so hard? I guess is the is the real question here.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Um there were toxic elements, definitely. Uh at some point HR was informed of things that are happening or things that were happening, and HR handled it the way internal HRs do, which is to do not a goddamn thing. Uh and so that became a continuing issue. Uh, and it was just the studio wasn't necessarily supportive. There were issues going on with production, uh issues going on with the showrunner, like it was just kind of like the staff was great, um, but all around there were there were fires that seemed to like just it's like California in the summer, basically. And it's like, yeah, there's no, there's no, I can't put this out. So hopefully that kind of answers your question with that guy.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

I know I think it does enough. Um so I guess the second question is given the world we're we're in, and the fact this sorry, no, given this podcast is about people saying how. Hard it is to achieve anything in Hollywood. When you walk away from the show, even if you're walking away for very, very good reasons, because uh as your mother said, men your mental health is very important. So I think she gave you the right advice. But was there a part of you? It's like I've worked so hard to get here, these jobs are so rare. If I walk away now, you know, not so much, you know, am I going to be seen as difficult and never work again? It's not that bit of it. Is it just the it is just hard to get another job? Is there a part of you gonna walk away and in a year, if you don't work for that whole year, you'll then look back and think, I should have sucked it up for another couple of months?

SPEAKER_01 22:39

Yes, I mean, I I have anxiety as well, so that didn't like it was exacerbated. And it was the sleepless nights, it's like I am a black woman in this industry, I am well aware that I can easily be labeled difficult or bitch. So that was I had to lay the groundwork that I had done everything I could to make it work, before ultimately being like, I can't make this work. And I am sorry, not really sorry, um, but I I can't continue on this show. Uh and yeah, I am again just because of my upbringing, like kudos to my parents. Uh from an early age, they taught me the the value and the power and the importance of saving money. Uh, so that's always been a thing with me. I will always have like some sort of secured nest egg where I'm like, all right, if I don't work, I can live off of this, like my savings for a year as I look for other things. Um and and that kind of helped uh take some of the anxiety away from the decision. But yeah, it's just like, and and I had people who called me afterwards because people on the show were describing me as difficult. But I had also uh built up enough of a reputation and credits that the guy that was calling me was like, Yeah, no, I I'm I want to talk to you about a job, but I just heard about you left this other thing, and the way you were being described didn't sound like you. So I wanted to check with you. It's like, so that is that was the other safety net. And and I can't remember if it was a friend, another writer, but it was like, yeah, no, you have a great, you know, I'm I'm trying not to brag, but it's like you have a great reputation. People like you and they respect you. And so I had that cushion as well, and it worked because this other person wanted me for a job, and it's like, yeah, no, that didn't sound like you. So I wanted to get your side of the story, and we talked, uh, didn't ultimately end up on that job, but it did make me feel better that I had people out there who would care enough to at least check with me about my side of the story. It's still terrifying. Uh, but again, ultimately I left that show, and then friends of friends uh ended up helping me get another job that I had later on that year. And that was a much better job in a much better environment. So it's scary, but like you gotta, you gotta again, you gotta put yourself in your mental health first.

SPEAKER_02 25:26

So obviously it's a it was a sounds like a very brave decision, and also the right one because you've worked quite a lot since. Indeed, you've had you know a very good run recently. So obviously, you've got you've got through all of this. Obviously, your story ended well, but do you there must be stories that have ended less well from your position that either you'd heard that made it more difficult for you, or um just for other people in your position who maybe don't have the credits in the bank to go back and get other work. How tough is it out there?

SPEAKER_01 26:01

It is tough. And I mean, like, I again it's like at my level at the time, I was high enough up where it's like, yes, I had the resume to back me up. But I understand that's like, especially for lower level, you know, writers of color and and female writers of color, it is it's very, very tough to feel like you can stand up for yourself uh and advocate for yourself without being labeled difficult. And I know it's like there have been people, it's like, okay, but who is saying they were difficult? What was the context? And I think it helps now that we're all like, okay, all right, let's get some backstory on this and see. Like, if it's a one-off thing, that might have just been a clash of personalities. If it's a string of shows, it's like it's the saying from justified. It's like if you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. You run into an asshole all day, you might be the asshole. And so that's kind of like the approach I take whenever someone is like labeled as difficult. It's like, all right, yeah, let's let's investigate this and and see if you know it's it's the morning or the evening asshole we're talking about.

SPEAKER_03 27:10

I I I want to comment on a couple of things here. First off, you said that you know, you you leaving the job felt like you know, you were worried about failure, but it felt like a very successful thing to do. And I and I think that, you know, you have to be at a certain level of success to do what you did, which is have the courage to walk away from a really difficult situation. It's much harder, I think, for people who don't, you know, I think you've just reached a level of self, self-like you you understood who you are, you understood your value to the system, and you were willing to walk away from it. I bet it did feel really great. But the my question has to do with your comment about, which I love the phrasing of, and I'm gonna get it wrong, but you had sort of succeeded in your dreams and you realized it was a nightmare. And I want to kind of drill down on that more because that's fairly comp surprisingly common with people who make it in Hollywood to only discover that, and this is the purpose of this entire podcast. Like, holy cow, this crazy awesome, amazing job. And it's crazy awesome and amazing, is also awful, miserable, and terrible. How does that duality exist? And do you have strategies to sort of live your best life in this industry?

SPEAKER_01 28:20

Um, yeah, so I can say, yeah, it's and again, it's like for for the young writers listening to this, it's like, you know, normally uh I started off as a research assistant, which I don't think is a position that exists anymore. And I work my way up to writer's assistant and then staff writer, and then you go up the ladder. That is the goal, hopefully, unless you're one of these lucky people who sell a pilot right out of the gate. And so you want to get to those next levels, you want to hit that next rung in the ladder. But sometimes you hit that rung and there's shit on it. And you're like, my hand is now covered in shit, but I have to keep going up. This is gross. When do I get to wash this off? Um, and then you know, there might be like a little station, i.e., a better show the next time where you can wash it off and feel better. And those those have been my signposts. It's like I've I've worked on on awful shows with awful showrunners, and it's been tough. But then I've also had good experiences, and I know those good experiences are possible. And now where I am, my goal is like, I want to create those good experiences for staff. Like, I know how to be a showrunner that's good in my mind. And so hopefully that translates for everyone else. And that is that is my North Star, is like, I want my own show, hence why I'm like, you know, constantly pitching. And you know, I now want to be my own boss. So that way I only have I'm the only asshole I have to blame at the end of the day if shit's not going well. Uh, and that is, I think for everyone, it's like you just have to have those points either in your life or in your goals that you look forward to. It's like, all right, I'm on the rung with shit, but eventually there's gonna be a rung that's got the stuff that I want on it, and I'm gonna get there and I'm gonna be happy again. Um that's not to one of my favorite movies is The Crow from 1993. And it's like the song, it's like it can't rain all the time. Like at some point, it's gonna have to break, and the sun will come out and you'll remember what joy is, and hopefully you'll stay in that joy. But if rain comes again, you'll know what you're working back towards.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

So having the ambition to have your own show is obviously a wonderful thing. So imagine the scenario, you've got your own show. Um, you've got your first meeting with the room, hopefully, in in because this is a hypothetical. Let's say you're actually in a real room with real human beings and no zoom, which is where you want to be anyway. So, given all of your experiences of not wonderful rooms, um, and the fact you're now you're uh you're the boss, what's your what's your message? Not obviously about the show, we don't want to give away pictures here, but what's your what's your sort of what's your message to the the team about all of the non-show stuff about how the room runs and mental health and the sort of people you want them to be and the sort of person that you want to be for them?

SPEAKER_01 31:26

My number one rule is I am that person who's like, uh no assholes. I will be the showrunner who has a no asshole policy. Like there is a hierarchy in the room. Uh, I do kind of like I am that person who's like, yes, there's a hierarchy, but you can still be respectful of people, especially staff writers. And having been an assistant, having been a staff writer, I am particularly protective of those people. Uh, no one especially can be a dick to the lower level writers and the assistants. I won't tolerate it. Uh, and like the assistants and the staff writers should probably like, you know, check your egos and learn. Like, that's what you're here for. Like, respect that you don't have the experience that the upper levels will have, and there's a good in that, and you'll get there eventually. Um, but yeah, it's like mutual respect for everyone. Uh, please try not to interrupt anyone when you're pitching. If you need a mental health day, please take it. And I am also the person, especially now post-pandemic. The other thing that I absolutely will not tolerate, if you are sick, do not bring your ass in my writer's room. Stay home. Which now, if like if you want to zoom in, we will set it up for you so that like you can zoom in um and participate. But yeah, that was always my biggest pet peeve with with some shows where like they would have the writers come in and they would be sick. And it's like, this is how this is how you take out a writer's room, like by not letting people take sick days. I never understood that. So yeah, it's like no asshole policy. And if you need to take a health day, mental or physical uh or otherwise, uh uh do it uh and just be respectful of everyone's personal experiences. I also like to say our writers' room will be a cone of silence so that people can feel free to share uh uh personal stories. Like a lot of times that happens in a writer's room where people will open up. Uh I don't want people to feel like they'll be mocked or judged for sharing. Um and so, like those those will be my my top rules.

SPEAKER_03 33:33

That that that sounds like a lovely place to work. So I'm I'm I'm now my fingers crossed for you that that you get to you know move forward. And I know you will, you're super talented and you have a great reputation. I I have a question, just a very simple question. There's been a lot of upheaval in the last year, toxic showrunners being outed for you know being toxic. Uh and the there's still a ways to go. We're not, we're not, you know, the industry, there's a few more people out there, and but I think adjustments are happening. I'm hoping. I'm hoping adjustments are happening. Are you hopeful that we're going to start to see better environments for the younger writers coming up that don't need to deal with the shit on the ladder rung, so to speak?

SPEAKER_01 34:15

I would love that. Honestly, I would love that. I would love if the next generation coming up didn't have to like put their like we were taught, like just keep your head down and like keep your mouth shut and do your job and weather the toxicity. I hope that there is a generation that does not have to do that. I fear it might be a we might be a ways off of that. And and I can say this because it's public information, but like look at what happened with CBS and all rise. That show, like upper levels, upper levels went to HR, they went to the studio, and nothing really happened. So that that showrunner felt emboldened to keep doing whatever he was doing, and then he was only fired this year, like after more complaints, and I guess evidence came out. And so it's like it's it's still difficult in that way. It's like a lot of showrunners who have proven track records and make studios money. Studios don't give two shits how the sausage is made, as long as the sausage gets made and they can sell it in a syndication and make money off of it, or sell it to a streaming service and make money off of it. Um, it's and the WGA's hands are kind of tied because with writers on writers violence, I guess. So it is it is a complicated thing. And I don't think that toxicity is just going to end overnight. And I still think there are probably staff writers and story editors and assistants who are working in toxic environments who are afraid to speak up, uh, knowing that like their boss is a power player of some sort. Um, but we are making progress. And I think what will help is once we actually get HR departments that are outside of the network and studio system, then and only then do I think you'll see real change.

SPEAKER_02 36:13

Yeah, um, I think you based on the last 24 episodes of this podcast, I think a robust HR system feels like something that's missing from Hollywood. Um, so look, it it's a shame in a way to have to ask the last question, but we have reached the last question stage of the podcast. Uh, and you've done bits of this already, which is good, but I want a very specific answer now. So if you could give a single piece of advice to somebody entering this industry, what would it be?

SPEAKER_01 36:44

Take care of your mental health. That is very, very, very important. And I am happy that we are now in an environment where mental health is being taken seriously. And despite the fact that this podcast is about failure, it's okay to fail. You will pick yourself up and you will get back on your feet, and you will find something else, hopefully, within this business, that you will do that will make you happy. Like I was also like anxiety, I was also that person as like who was just terrified, absolutely terrified of failure. And I uh was at USC's grad screenwriting program and I took a directing class with Nina Fosch, who sadly passed away a few years ago. Uh, but she was an actress and a director in the early days of Hollywood. And so she saw me like doing this presentation and she was like, What's your problem? Why are you shaking? Why are you so scared? And I'm like, Well, because I don't want to fuck up and fail. And she was like, What happened if you fail? Will you die? And I'm just like standing at the front of the class, I'm like, Well, no, I'm not gonna die. She was like, Well, then it's fine. Do the rule, like, yeah, it's like, and this tiny, tiny, like 82-pound woman yelling at me, it's like, Will you die if you fail? That wasn't it, I was like, No, no, I won't. So thanks, Nina. Like, one of the early bits of wisdom that I learned.

SPEAKER_02 38:11

Amazing. This has been extraordinary. Look, we deliberately probe the more difficult parts of people's career because that's sort of the whole point of this podcast. Uh, and so, and we asked some difficult questions, and we appreciate the candor and honesty in your answers. So, and I know it's not easy, but we appreciate it. So, thank you very much indeed for being on this podcast.

SPEAKER_01 38:33

And thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02 38:35

Definitely hope your dreams come true and you can run a room the way it sounds like a room should be run. And uh I'm sure lots of people will want to work in that particular room.

SPEAKER_03 38:44

I'm definitely hoping if I'm having a bad day, that I can either call your mother or I can call your brother. And you'll be like, Will you die? And I'm like, no, then you're having a good day. Thanks, Michelle.

SPEAKER_01 38:56

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 39:00

All right, that does it for us today. I want to thank you for tuning in to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss. If you have any questions or comments, you can reach out to me on Twitter. I am at NEBslin.

SPEAKER_02 39:12

Wait, are we are we not bothering to talk about the other Twitter account, given we have this great social engagement and people never bother to actually include me, whose idea it was to do this podcast in the first place?

SPEAKER_03 39:24

You have a Twitter account?

SPEAKER_02 39:25

I do have a Twitter account. It's at Dan Rutste. And not only now do I have another Twitter account, I also have two other podcasts. And some of our listeners have been saying, Dan, please tell us about your other podcasts. So our other podcasts are what are my other podcasts? Oh yes, United States of Dramerica, where I share a glass of whiskey and have a fascinating conversation. And America the Beautiful Game, where I talk about soccer in America and what it can learn from Europe.

SPEAKER_03 39:54

For our repeat listeners, uh, you can probably stop listening when Dan starts talking about his second and third podcast. Uh, that brings us to the end of another great episode. We, as always, want to thank our wives for putting up with our nonsense.

unknown 40:10

That's good.