Take 129 - John Wirth Part Two!

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for shore, dozens of unproduced scripts littering for.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_03 0:22

Sometimes even this is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is like everything in our business here.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

And I probably lost it. And I remember thinking like, well, that's it for me. I do my one big shot. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_03 1:16

Brought to you by the Emmy Award-winning annotation software Scriptation. As ever, I am Dan Rutstein, your non-entertainment co-host. And we still have Noah Epsilon, and we still have John Worth. Because this is our first double episode, and there's stories that still need telling. So we're gonna we're gonna keep going with John. John, your your career, I guess, is is long enough that uh obviously, you know, we we talked last week about some of the things that have that have gone wrong, but um the benefit of having so many credits and have run so many shows is that a lot more things have have gone on which we didn't have time to talk about. Um so I'm gonna start in completely the wrong place for this show and ask you what you get a choice here, either show or episode are you most proud of and and went the most successfully from a career point of view for you.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Wow, Dan, that's a good question. Um I have an episode that I'm the most proud of. I'm not sure it's the episode that went most successfully for me. Um, it was very challenging to make. Um the um, so I have a story for you guys, which which which I love it when you say that kind of leads into um this episode. So uh maybe like around 10 years ago, um my wife and I decided we should we should uh go out of the country for a period of time. Um and when I say go out of the country for a period of time, I don't mean like you know live live in a you know um you know a Tuscany estate uh or anything like that. I mean go out of town like regular people go out of town and travel around and and and uh hang out. And um so um so we decided to go to Tuscany and spend some time over there. And um, so we had been kind of working on this trip and getting this thing kind of lined up. And um, I forget what job I had been on, but I had finished a job, had some money in the bank and was needing to spend it. And so um my agent calls me and he says, Um, hey, uh um I've got an interview for you. And I said, uh, and I've had the my agent is Paul Haas at WMEF. He's been my agent for 30 years. Um, and uh I said, Well, you know, Paul, um, my wife and I are going on vacation and I'm really not looking to work right now. And he said, Well, I've already set up the meeting. And I said, Yeah, but I'm not looking to work right now. He said, Dude, I've set up the meeting. I'm not canceling the meeting. You're going to the meeting. If you don't want the job, let them offer you the job and then turn down the job, which is harder to do than it sounds. Um so I kind of got cajoled by him into going to this meeting. So I go to the meeting and it's at AMC, and the show is hell on hell on wheels. And I had not seen the show, um, although I had some friends working on it. So I go into the meeting and I didn't really take it very seriously, um, which is a mistake going into any Hollywood meeting, I would say. So I walked in and they were very collegiate, very nice, lovely people. And they said, um, um, so um what do you think of the show? This was a meeting um to be the showrunner. Um, there had been these two guys, um, Joe and Tony Gayton, they're brothers, they had created the show. They were not TV guys, so they had a uh showrunner put on the show with them. Those guys didn't get along, and as happens quite a bit. And so um they were looking for a new showrunner. The showrunner left. Actually, everybody left, so it was a show without anybody at the top. So I'm I'm in this meeting and they said, So what do you uh think of the show? And I said, Um, I haven't seen it. And they just looked at me like, What in the hell are you doing here? Have I told you guys this story?

SPEAKER_01 5:53

No, I'm just shaking my head because I was like, I'm trying to call myself into your shoe.

SPEAKER_02 5:57

So uh they're looking at me like, what? Who is this guy? You know, and they said, Well, um uh what are you doing here then? I said, Well, you know, um, my wife and I are are hoping to go to Europe on a vacation and I'm not really looking to work. And my agent said he set this meeting up and it was too late to cancel it, and I should just come to the meeting. So I'm here. I realize I'm probably wasting your time. I apologize for that. Um, and uh, you know, as I said, I'm not really looking to work, but I know a lot of showrunners. And if you tell me what you're looking for, I can recommend somebody to you. And one of the guys got, you know, uh really looked insulted. And he was like, uh, that's okay, that that's our job. And uh another guy stood up and and extended his hand across the table and he said, Thanks for coming in. I was like, All right, all right, then. So I walk out, I get my parking uh thing stamped, I go down, I get my car. I'm not even out of the parking lot, and my phone rings and it's Paul Hask. And he goes, Um, dude, what did you say in there? I said, uh, well, and he goes, dude, they want you. I said, what? He goes, they want you hard. I said, you gotta be kidding me. He goes, what did you say? I said, I'm not looking to work, um, don't know the show, and uh I'm trying to go to Italy with my wife. And he goes, Well, you're not going to Italy. You're gonna be doing hell on wheels. Um, and so then um, the next beat on that story is um they want me to look at some episodes and then come back in and talk to them about what is quote unquote wrong with the show, in my opinion. So um I think they'd made uh like 20 episodes of the show, maybe by then. I think we were making 10 a season. So they send over 20 episodes to my house. These 20 DVDs show up. And um, I haven't told my wife yet that this is all happening. She's still on the Italy train. And um, so these DVDs show up and and I say, uh uh, okay, um, well, I'm up for this job, I don't really want it, I'm not gonna take it. Uh, but I've gotten myself down the road this far. And um I said I would look at some episodes. So let's so since you're in this with me, we're a team. Um, I mean by that, I mean we're married, we're a vacation team, not a writing team. And um let let's just I'm just gonna put on the pilot, we'll watch five minutes, and then I can call up my agent and say, watch the it's not for me, and pass, you know, on the content. So um, so we put in the pilot, and we're watching a few minutes of the pilot, and then the star of the show, Anson Mount, who plays Cullen Bohannan, uh comes on screen, and I hear from the couch to my right my wife utter the sound that's kind of like, oh. So I put the thing on pause, I turn to her, I go, uh, what did you say? And she goes, Oh my. I go, what does that mean? She goes, You're taking this job. I said, Why am I taking this job? She said, Because I want to meet him. I said, You have got to be kidding me. That man is young enough to be your son. She goes, he doesn't know that. Like, all right. So cut to now, you know, 10 years later, having done four seasons of that show, and Ants and I became very good friends and uh spent a lot of time with him. And he has figured my wife out, and he is under her skin in a way that very few people I know can get under that woman's skin. And it that's really a delight. Um, but um what happened further on? So then I I called my agent. I said, Yeah, okay, I'm uh, you know, I'm interested. And so then I had to take another meeting with AMC, and I had to take another meeting with uh, there were two production entities, I think, tied up with that thing. Um, and I had to go meet with those guys. Um, that's a lot a lot of dog and ponying around, you know, uh to get a job that I didn't think I wanted in the first place. Um so they made me an offer and I got the job. And um, and then I went in um for my first official meeting as the showrunner of the show, and that's that's when they really said, um, so what's what's wrong with the show? And there was really nothing wrong with the show. I thought the show was working pretty well over the first two seasons. The only thing that I could really identify was um the show, they were treating the show like an ensemble. And it felt to me like a star vehicle for Anson Mount, um, who played this character of Colin Bohanan, who brings everybody to the railroad. That was our entree to the railroad. So I thought all the stories should sort of focus on him and re and anybody else who had a story, and there were a lot of wonderful characters and incredible actors on that show. Their story should reverberate off him somehow in the middle of this um ensemble that they had created. So I made just that very slight adjustment. Uh, in my view, it was a slight adjustment, but it changed it changed everything for that show. And we ended up uh doing four more seasons. Um so the very first episode of that show that I wrote um is my favorite episode that I've written in television. And um the short story, you know, it's about the building of the Transcontinental Railroad that that series. And so the short story is um the railroad's uh Anson Mount's character is is surveying across the countryside, and and um he ends up going right across um some Mormon homesteaders' property, and they won't let him build the railroad there, so he has to negotiate with them to build the railroad, and uh there ends up being kind of a fight, um, a gunfight, somebody gets killed, and um Cullen Bohannan um has has to um well, I guess I the show is 10 years old, so I guess I can spoil it now. I'm not spoiling it for anybody, but um the uh the Mormon father um ends up killing a railroad um uh sheri um cop. And um and he's the he's the head of the family, and he's got a bunch of kids, and without him, the family will fail. So he puts the blame on a 16-year-old kid. So the hero of my show has to make a decision: does he hang this kid or not? Um, it's a really gripping, compelling story, in my view. And um, it was beautifully directed by Adam Davidson, um, who is an absolutely incredibly gifted director and really challenging to work with because he has a lot of ideas. Um and um when you think your script is done, he says, I had a thought, and he's on page one. You're like, oh my god. Um anyway, um, he did a great job, and and uh Anson Mount and Common um were incredible in the episode, and um it, you know, it feels like my best work, and that show, as sometimes happens, um you can be working on a really good show that goes un under the, you know, it's it's just not seen by anybody. And um, that show was sort of suffering from a comparison to Deadwood at the time. We were sort of like the quote unquote poor man's Deadwood. Um, so people didn't really see it or pay much attention to it. I think it holds up quite well. Um, and I think we were doing very good work, everybody involved in that show, but we got no attention at all. Um so that that was my favorite episode, which came out of a job I didn't want um going into it, which turns out to be uh to this day my favorite job that I've had of all the jobs that I've had. You know, to your point, last time, Dan, that that's one show I do remember having been on. And uh yeah, it was um very challenging, but man, it was really fun doing it. I'm on a show right now, you know, called Dark Winds, which is also completely under the radar um until um August 19th. It had been. And then uh they uh licensed it, AMC licensed it to Netflix, and the show has sort of um taken off. You know, it's it's it's experiencing what what they call the Netflix effect, where um it was in the top 10 for five or six weeks, and people seem to really be taking to it, you know. So hopefully um it gives us a little life going forward.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

You I had a question about your family, and I'm gonna like I really wanted to ask this burning question about your relationship with your wife and the toll these jobs take on that. But then as you were talking, I I want to ask a really nerdy question first, and we can swing back to that. Um, as a writer, this is going to be you know appeal to the writers out there probably only, but you've you've multiple times you've taken on a showrunning job midstream, it sounds like so. There was somebody who else has created something, you come in season two, three, four, whatever, and you put your own spin on it, but you also have to keep it the same, right? You have to keep these characters somewhat the same, the voice somewhat the same. You are how do you, you know, as a writer on staff, we have to be chameleons and become our showrunner's voice, and that's part of what we do. But I have to imagine it's magnified 10 to 100 times while you come into a new show, suddenly are the final arbiter on the voice of the show, and yet there was a pre-existing voice. Can you talk about that process a little bit?

SPEAKER_02 17:07

Yeah. Um my very first showrunning job um was on a show called The District. And um I had been on previous to that, I had been on uh Nash Bridges for six years. Um and um we talked about this a little bit before, but and you work for Carlton, so you know what I'm talking about. I really learned a lot from that guy about how to run a show, and that show for many reasons was a real difficult show to make. Um, and um, you know, there was a lot of managing going on on that show with with the star, and um, and Carlton just did a great job, I thought. And so just by being kind of a fly on the wall, I learned a lot from him about showrunning. And then um CBS gave me the opportunity to do this show uh called the district. And it was a fixer job because it was going into its um, I think they had done one season, so it was going into its second season. The um, the guy who created it, uh, whose name was Terry George, was a wonderful writer director um of films. Um, I I guess I don't know him. I met him one time. Um, I guess he was just not suited to be a television showrunner, as many people are not. And um, so he just uh wanted to make a change and you know get back to his life um as it was before he was had invented this TV show. So I went there, went in there to kind of fix that show. Um and that, and I never set out to do that, it just became the opportunity that presented itself to me. And I think that's a thing that happens to a lot of us as writers. You know, opportunities present themselves, we take them, and then, you know, in many respects, we get defined by whatever that opportunity presented us. So I sort of was seen as having fixed that show, and then that became um a label that got attached to me. I was the sort of a quote unquote fixer. So I ended up doing quite a few jobs over the years um that were uh, you know, um triage jobs, you know, going in with shows that were in various states of disrepair, um, and kind of um fixing them. This current job I'm on now, um, the Dark Winds, same kind of situation. Um different, entirely different than any other show I was on. There were some mitigating circumstances. The guy who created the show created it for uh uh HBO. Uh HBO developed it, they didn't buy it. Uh he moved on to an overall deal um and uh was unavailable to work on the show. Um, so they um they were in search of a show runner, they hired somebody, he didn't work out. Um, and um and so they uh they they came to me and asked if I could come in and sort of straighten stuff out. So um, oh man, I was thinking of something I was gonna tell you, um, which I've forgotten now because I went went down a different track, but I'll remember as we keep talking. Um what was your question, Noah?

SPEAKER_01 20:48

I asked about just maintaining the voice of the show.

SPEAKER_02 20:51

Yeah, yeah. So so you do you kind of have to go in and analyze what is the show. What and then look back at the pilot and see if you can kind of grok what the show might have been intended to be and what the show's become in the episodes since the pilot. And then try to figure out what is you know, everybody has an opinion, you know. You'll talk to everybody, you you know, have your actors, they all have a lot to say about things. You talk to any remaining uh producers on the show, they'll have a lot to say. The network will have a lot to say, and then you kind of have to throw that all in the basket and sift it down, um, talk with your writers, and figure out what you want to do to um move the show in a different direction. And you're right, like let's talk about Hell and Wheels for Hell and Wheels, for example. I mean, I mean, 20 episodes is a lot of episodes to have. Um the show didn't really change, it was about building the railroad. We kept building the railroad. Um, it's just my approach to the storytelling shifted slightly, and the voices of the characters remained the same. Um in as far as I could do that. Uh each of us as writers bring our own things to our material. Um I tend to write, you know, um from the heart. Um I like emotion. Um I um uh Bear McCrary was doing the music on um Terminator, Sarah Connor Chronicles. And uh I would always ask him to to give me a little more emotion in the in the cues he was writing. And he said, Well, I'll take it just up to the point where I have to get out my hair sickness bag and then I'm gonna stop. And so I think I should tell myself that more often when I'm writing scenes because um, you know, I I can tend to the maudlin, um, but you know, that makes me feel something. And when I'm writing something and seeing it on television, um that always gets me. So, you know, without I have to guard against taking any show in that direction. Um, but um, you know, it's just it's just that, you know, it's it's figuring out how to keep it going, how to make a course correction without reinventing. And that's uh it's delicate, you know. It I've seen people come into shows. Um, I've been on shows before I was a showrunner where people have come in and tried to reinvent, um, and it's it doesn't really go well, in my view.

SPEAKER_03 23:58

John, we we know people who've worked for you who think you're wonderful, um so which is uh good. Um uh I guess my question is uh how would you describe your leadership style when you're in charge of a show? And how how intentional uh are you in terms of uh when you walk in the room and address the writers for the first time? Yeah, how much of it is just you've been doing this for a long time, and how much of it is like here are the five things I'm gonna tell you about how I'm gonna do this.

SPEAKER_02 24:39

Um I would say I'm very intentional. I have a way of doing things. Um, when I was listening to this podcast I was on with you guys uh last time, I thought of a couple things. One is um when I was talking about, you know, they have walls now that that are writers that are like boards, you know. I I felt like such an old man. You know, they have walls, you can actually write on the walls, you know, it was so insane. Um and um, but um it is very intentional, you know. I do, I mean, I say that because I like to work on the boards. Um, it helps me to be able to sit in my chair and see the whole story because there's always problems in developing stories, and the solutions are always on the board somewhere. If you can read between the lines, you can see, you know, what's not working there, what's missing there, what beat is in the wrong place on that board, you know. And so if I can't kind of get the big picture, I can't sort of hold it in my mind. Um, but I'm very um, you know, my room is I think an egalitarian room, all ideas are welcome. There are no bad ideas. Um I will discuss a bad idea because even if I know it's a bad idea, I'll discuss it because sometimes good ideas come out of bad ideas, as we all know. Um and uh, but it is a it is a um, you know, as as probably many showrunners feel this way, it's a but not for me, it's a benign dictatorship. You know, I have no problem saying, um, that's a great idea, love it. We're not going that way, we're going this way, get on board, you know. Um, I remember I had a I had a very large writer's room on a show. It was really too big. I don't know how it got so big. I think the the network was or the uh studio was concerned, and so I ended up having like 10 or 12 writers in there, and it was just it's too many people. Um, I like a room that's about five or six. Um, and that works really well for these smaller episodes. Um, this show I'm talking about with the 10 or 12 people, that was 22 episode series. So I ended up splitting that room in two um because a lot of daylight was getting burned in there by side conversations and sidebars, you know, that people were having. I remember I don't like to um humiliate people. I think um I think that's very damaging to writers, psyches, and um and you know, their ability to participate fully if they have been humiliated or are feeling nervous or fearful of what you might say or how you might interact with them or their ideas. So um I remember taking this uh guy aside, brought him into my office, and um this guy was really funny because he he would drink Coca-Cola out of cans, and he would start with, you know, in the morning, you'd come in and he'd have a can of Coke in front of him, and by the end of the day, there'd be like a dozen cans there that he had had during the day. And I just said, you know, um you talk incessantly, and you're not really additive to the story, and you're just burning my daylight. So you gotta do something, you know, you gotta drink less caffeine, you have to be more thoughtful before you talk, uh, you have to pay better attention, you have to adjust your medical medication. I mean, I don't know. You gotta do something, and um and that generally usually works if you have conversations with people like that. Um, calling them out. I've seen this when I've been on shows, you know, where people, you know, were scared to death of the showrunner. I've been on shows where when I've driven on the lot and I drove past the showrunner's parking spot, if I saw the showrunner's car there, I would start to feel nauseous because I knew what you know I was going into. That's not a good way to work. I think you know, you you get the best work out of people when they're feeling good about the work they're doing, and helping people do that um is the challenge, you know. Um I have um I do a lot of rewriting on scripts. Um, and especially when I was younger, I did this a lot. And I think it it all comes from my upbringing, you know. Like I I had a terrible relationship with my father, and a lot of a lot of us are broken toys anyway in the entertainment business, you know. And um, and so my father was a scary guy, and um, and I I never I I was one of those guys who like, you know, is like looking around at what my chores are, and I would try to get all my chores done um so my father would have nothing to pick on, you know. And so I think that's carried over into my adult life, especially as a as a writer, and certainly as in my early days as a showrunner and even somebody just running a writer's room. Um, and so I was always trying to get the scripts to a place where I thought they needed to be. Um Pambi Say said to me one time, um, and I think she meant this with love, uh, but there was a little underlying edge to it for sure. She said, you know, when I she said, when you rewrite my scripts, they don't always get better, but they always get closer to what they need to be. And I I thought that was a really astute comment because that's what I'm going for is trying to get the scripts closer to what they need to be. Um, and so I do I do all my editing in hand uh with a red pen. So um anybody who's worked with me will talk about my red pen and how heavy my red pen can be. And um, I remember uh Sean Ryan, Carlton hired him on um Nash Bridges when I was there. And uh Sean came in and uh was really kind of unformed at the time, um, but a lovable, big piece of manpower right from the get-go, you know. And um and so he would write scripts and I would red pen his scripts, and I could tell he was a little, you know, peeved about it, but he was a gentleman and really never said anything about it. And then when he uh left that show to go on to begin his really stellar career as a creator and a writer uh in his own right, um, he sent me a lovely note, uh, which is right back there on my shelf, uh framed. And um he wrote me this beautiful note, and then he red penned the note before giving it to me. So um I was very touched by that. Um, I took it for, you know, I took it with love, um, and and recognized the the edge underneath it. So um I don't know how heavily Sean rewrites or red pens people. Um, but um I hope he's experienced some of what I experience in in doing that job.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

So you you brought up something that you know now I had another question, but I had to pivot again to this question. That I'm I've been on a number a lot of shows, a lot of great showrunners, and I'm and a lot of showrunners who are you know learning their job, just a lot of different you know, personalities. And I'm learning that what often the difference between a good showrunner, a good manager to Dan's question and to your answer, your great answer, sometimes is the ability to have these hard conversations that people don't want to have, especially writers don't want to have. They they run from them often because that's not what we're trained to do, is to tell someone they're not doing good work or to tell someone they need to course adjust like you did with the guy with the coke bands, you know, to keep your job really. They just don't say anything, and then the person loses their job and never knows what they were doing wrong along the way. How do you prepare for a hard conversation that you need to have with somebody? It sounds like you you have them and you have them well.

SPEAKER_02 33:28

I do have them. A lot of I have a lot of them. Um I don't like them, they're not fun. Um, there's they can be scary, um but um because they're unpredictable, you know. Um and so I I guess what I do is I I don't really prepare for them. I try to have them as soon as I can because I don't like to uh stew over it. Um I like to just go right at it. Um I have a writer uh who you know um who works with me a lot, and he said uh to me one day, he said, I've never seen anybody who goes right into the teeth of an issue or a hard conversation with such immediacy. You know, I'll get a you know, I remember he he said this after I got um a set of notes from the network, and they were really stupid. So I just called them up in the moment and accuse them of having gotten up on the wrong side of the bed that morning because these notes were so nuts. Um but it just you know it gets through it. Um and um I'm sure there are people who um you know have had um less than uh fun experiences with me, you know. Um I got into a little thing with AMC last year where um they uh we had to make a decision about something that I thought should have been the network's decision and they they punted it to me. So I did it. I made a decision immediately, and then they thought about it and they decided they were gonna make the decision and they made the opposite decision of the decision I had made. So then, but they wanted they called me to tell me that they were countermanding my decision and I should run it down the line, and um, and I uh I took great umbrage to that, and um, and so we we got into it a little bit um and things got heated for a moment, but um, you know, I think I I think that all came out of them thinking that I was gonna, you know, sit on this for a while and um that they would have time to kind of talk about it and figure out what they wanted to do. Um, but I I just went into it immediately, you know. I have another strategy which works quite well. Um, my wife was a former stand-up comedian and she um came up in the business with Louis Anderson. And um I gave Louis his first um acting job on a television show. We hired him on Remington Steel, and uh we did a story where he played this um family scion, the the um um youngest child or the oldest child of a of a caviar king or something like that. And he was having I I forget what the story was, but I the the main thing about the story which delighted me was we ended up handcuffing him to um Pierce Brosnan, and they ran around in the story like through a couple of acts handcuffed together. Um, it was a it probably a takeoff on the Defiant ones, you know, and um very, very amusing. And so Louie and I were um, I mean, we we had had known each other for many years, and he said to me one time, I was talking to him about some problem I was having, and he said, What he his strategy was when things like that came up, was he just stalled. He said, I just stall, and things tend to work themselves out, and so as you know, Noah, a lot of a lot of times you'll get a call from the set and it's urgent, and there's some issue going on down there, and they need you. And if you're in town or if you're on you know near the set, they need you there immediately to solve this problem. And what I learned on Nash Bridges, because we were in Burbank and they we shot the show in San Francisco, is you know, when they would call with a problem, if you didn't get back to them in five minutes or so, they just solved it. And then I realized, oh yeah, there's a lot of smart people down there. They may not be writers, but they can figure stuff out and they can solve things, you know. And um so whenever I get, you know, we'll keep this just between us, but whenever I get a call from the set and it's urgent, I tend to stall a little bit just to see if it works itself out. It's less aggravating, you know.

SPEAKER_03 38:46

So John, here's a question. What part of there's lots of parts of showrunning you're very good at? What parts of showrunning are you not very good at?

SPEAKER_02 39:00

Probably a lot. Um I'm not very good at um going with the flow when there are people who don't do what I tell them to do. So you know, as the boss, you think, okay, well, I'm the boss, so here's how we're gonna do it, and here's what I would like you to do, or they can't do it, and here's what I expect, or they feel uh through what certain circumstances that they don't have to do it. And that that is really aggravating to me. Um, and depending on the situation, can become infuriating. And I haven't figured out how to manage the um unmanageable, and there are a lot of unmanageable aspects of running a TV show. Um, so I think I'm probably not very good at at that. I'm also not very good at delegating, especially with writing. I like to I like to do the writing, you know. Um people ask me all the time, how come you don't have multiple shows going? I mean, why aren't you, you know, like a lot of other people in your class? Um and I it's just because I have a hard time doing more than one thing at a time. And when I get in a show, I'm just in that show, and I want to be in that show, and I want to do everything, which is probably another thing I'm not good at, Dan, is I just want to do everything. And uh you can't do everything. And um, I have friends that do this job that are much better at deciding what it is they need to do on their shows and doing it well, and delegating the rest of it to people that they've hand chosen who they know can can get it done.

SPEAKER_01 41:02

So what saying I do think it's good. That's good. But we've had a lot of reports of that from people we know. Uh, the you know, now I can actually circle back to the question I've been wanting to ask, and it's probably more appropriate to ask it now after this conversation. But what you you've been on through generations of of you know, the the industry has changed so much and it keeps on changing. And you know, I want to ask about that as well. But what toll has this taken on you, on your family? Because I know screenwriter, I have a lot of friends now who are just becoming showrunners or have been showrunners for the first time. That's my sort of school, my my grade right now. We're all becoming showrunners, and it's it's doing a lot of them in. It's really hard, it's a really hard job. And um, some of them are not handling it. I mean, because it's a hard job, not that they're not equipped to handle it, it's just you know, personally, their lives are imploding, things are happening, and you've somehow showrun. I mean, you've you've been the show runner of so many shows, and you're still married. You talk about your wife, you know, a few times on this podcast. Like, like, how do you manage the toll on your personal life? And and and was there one?

SPEAKER_02 42:15

I think there, I think, you know, there is a toll. The job takes a toll. We did talk about this a little bit the last time. Um and somebody your age, I think, I think it might it's hard to make statements like this like it's an age thing, but I'll talk about myself. When I was younger, um I was so focused on the job, on building my career, on you know, writing well, making shows that people wanted to see, um, feeling good about my job, uh, that I I neglected the family side. And that started that picture started to come together and come to focus the older I got. So I think it to some uh degree uh surviving and uh going through life and getting older and having all the experiences that we have, um, and realizing that there is, you know, what in this society we call the work-life balance. Um, which by the way, I don't think that was even a phrase that was coined when I started in the business. Um, but it is it it is an important thing. And um for some of the younger people, I think the challenge is uh it's hard to make a living in the television business right now with the way it's set. Set up, you know. Um, the guys that work for me, um, we had in season two, we had a 14-week, we had a 10-week writer's room with a 14-week extension. Uh I'm pretty sure a hundred percent of those writers worked 14 weeks that year. Last year, in season three in Darkwinds, we had a 20-week writer's room. Uh, it came right after the strike. So two writers went through the entire production, which was good. Um, but everybody else was done in 20 weeks. And I'm pretty sure you can't live in Los Angeles on 20 weeks of a writer's fee, even if you're a showrunner and you're making a pretty healthy fee. Um, you know, California is a difficult place to live. Uh, it's expensive. The pressures there just from a life standpoint are enormous. Um you know, I was talking to a friend of mine um at the end of last week, uh, a guy we know had passed away, a guy we worked with, very annoying guy. And my friend called me to tell me that he had gone to the services and that everybody there was talking about what an annoying guy this guy was, um, but lovable. And um and my friend lives in New York City and is always he's born and raised in New York City, he's a New Yorker, he's never lived anywhere else, and he's never going to live anywhere else. And for many years, he had a really nice career in the television business living in New York because there were shows there. Um, and he created uh a number of shows, and with the strikes and the pandemic, um it's hit him hard and it's added up to a lot of years, and it's really the downward financial pressure on him right now is enormous. Um, he's got two kids, one's in college, one's in uh uh high school. He's sent them through you know very expensive schools in New York City and um and now in college. Um he hasn't worked in a while, and uh he's kind of at his wit's end, you know, and he's in his 40s, um probably you know, close to 50, but still, you know, looking at his career and saying, what is what is it added up to? How am I how did I get here? And um and I remember being in in a place where I had no money, and um things were tough, and I had little kids and I was between jobs, and um we were either on, you know, uh there was a strike going back before many of your listeners were born, probably, and I think in 1988 we had a strike, and uh that one was long, like this last one. And thank God for the writers' guild, I went to them and I, you know, they had a writers' guild strike fund, and I borrowed money from the strike fund, and that just I barely squeaked by um with that. Fortunately, my wife was working and um she was very actively acting in those days, so um, we were fine. A lot of people don't have a partner who you know is able to support them if they're not working, so um it's really tough. It really takes a toll. I think what what we're seeing now is a thinning out of the business. Some people are just saying, you know what? No, I I can't do this, you know, and they're taking their skills and their lives and they're going into something else. Um, which is not terrible, may not be, you know, what they had hoped to do, but um it's not awful, but it's it's a tough place to be when you're in my friend's position, who is pretty far down the line without having done other things and um doesn't know what he's gonna do now, you know. Um I feel for him right up to the point of lending him money.

SPEAKER_03 48:38

That's a good line not to cross. Um, so I'm obviously this is the second time we've had you on, and I'm conscious that this has been excellent, but we are we're running out of time. Um so I'm gonna ask a final question now. You you did the final question last time, so we need a different final question. So the final question last time is what advice would you give people? I think the final question this time is what piece of advice have you been given by somebody that has made the most difference to you in your professional career, job worth?

SPEAKER_02 49:13

That's an easy one. Um, Michael Gleason, R.I.P. Michael, created Remington Steel. It was my first job in the entertainment business. Um, he was a very scary guy to me because he was a New Yorker, he was a huge personality, really funny, and a wonderful writer. And um, I've often said every good and bad thing I know about writing, I learned from him, um, including how to drink, which is not necessarily a good thing for a writer. Um many writers I know now don't drink at all, but in the early 80s, it was not uncommon for us to go to lunch and the entire writing staff gets drunk at lunch, and then we come back and you know, we kind of doze through about three hours and then things pick up again around five o'clock, and we work, you know, late into the night. But he called me into his office one day, and um and he said, uh, I'm gonna give you the the some advice on how to have um a successful career as a writer in Hollywood. And I said, Okay. He said, Stay married to your first wife. I think he was on wife number four at the time. So um that was good. Do we have time for another quick story? Because I'm remembering a quick Michael Gleason story. So um the first script I wrote for that series um was called Breath of Steel, because steel had to be in the title of every episode. And and so uh Michael comes into my office, he said, Hey, the uh the network uh guy is coming over to talk about to give notes on your script today. You might want to come into my office and join the meeting. You might learn something. I said, Well, I've never seen the network guy come in before. Is this like something special? And he goes, Yeah, it is. That's why I'm suggesting you might want to be there. I'm like, Oh, okay. So the guy arrives and he comes carrying a bottle of vodka and um a bag of ice, and he has my script, and I always put my scripts in in a blue script cover. And uh he goes into Michael's office, and then I'm ushered in, introduced, and uh there's the desk, and then two chairs in front of Michael's desk, and then way in the back is a couch, and I'm sitting on the couch, and these two guys are in front of me. The network guy's back is to me. But I did see when I came in the office, Michael's desk was immaculate, except for my script in the blue cover on his desk where he sits. So they sit down, they call, you know, they get glasses, they pour vodka um for this meeting, they don't offer me anything. I'm just sitting back there flying the wall. And the guy from the network starts talking about my script, and he's starts pitching his story for my script, which would involve uh a page one rewrite. And it took quite a long time for him to pitch this out, and he so he pitches it out and he goes, uh, so those are my thoughts on the on the script. And Michael Gleason looked at him and uh he put his hands on my script and he slid it across the table in front of this guy, and he said, Um, the story you just told me sounds like a really good episode of television. But this is the script we're making. And if you have any thoughts that would make this script better, I'm happy to hear them. And that was the end of the meeting, and that guy left, and I was like, wow, that was amazing. And uh, I've tried to keep that in mind in getting notes, you know, like trying to help executives stay on point, give me a note about this story and not about the story you think this could be in some other world. Um, it was a very, very good lesson um to have learned from that guy. And I just thought of it when I was telling the story about uh stay married to your first wife.

SPEAKER_01 53:46

May we all have a Michael Gleason on our shoulder protecting us. He is now the new guardian angel of writers in Hollywood. Michael Gleason, you are, you know, we're gonna put you behind us all. John, thank you again for coming on for such a great episode with us for a second time. Uh having me back, guys.

SPEAKER_02 54:01

It's really a lot of fun. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03 54:03

Brilliant. Thanks, John. See ya.

SPEAKER_01 54:06

Thank you so much for listening. And thank you, James Launch, for the music and our wives for putting up with our content delivery. As always, each episode is brought to you by Scriptation, my favorite screenwriting annotation software. If you want to support the show, please download a copy at www.scriptation.com backslash noah.

SPEAKER_03 54:26

Or perhaps even better at www.scriptation.com backslash Dan.

SPEAKER_01 54:32

Dan is spelled N-O-A-H. If you want to find me on social media, I'm at Twitter at NFswin and more basically threads at Noah Epslin.

SPEAKER_03 54:45

Don't worry about me on social media, because all you people really care about is not very funny.