From Shondaland to Reasonable Doubt with a little Scandal in between. Showrunner Raamla Mohamed Hunter.

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for shore, dozens of unproduced scripts littering the floor.

SPEAKER_02 0:18

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_03 0:24

For every success, there is months, sometimes even years, of painful failure. This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

That's the norm. To be able to perserate. Like everything in our business, your hands can count.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

That doesn't matter overnight. I was being told by my manager it's yours to lose. And I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking like, well, that's it for me. I blew my one big shot. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_03 1:09

Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry, brought to you by the Emmy Award-winning annotation software Scriptation. As ever, I am Dan Rutstein, your non-entertainment co-host.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

And I am your still in the entertainment industry, co-host Noah Evslin. On today's Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, we have TV writer, showrunner, and show creator Romlo Mohammed Hunter on the show. Ramla has written for such shows as Still Star Crossed, Scandal, and Little Fires Everywhere before creating the show Reasonable Doubt, which can be found on Disney Plus and Hulu and recently premiered his fourth season. Welcome, Ramla.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Thanks. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_03 1:54

So I've never asked this question in 160 episodes. But hearing that you've worked on shows like Scandal, I know somebody who's worked on shows like that as well. So that the first question has to be what's it really like working with Noah Evslin?

SPEAKER_00 2:12

You know, working with Noah was great. We actually had the same job on different shows. So he was the researcher on private practice at one point, and I was a researcher on scandal, and um, and then also an off the map. And so we actually would talk a lot um with I think Meg too, like to make sure we weren't doing the same stories. Cause I think something happened where like our the stories were kind of close, like that were pitched. And so um I think Shonda was like, okay, you guys should like talk to each other and make sure we're not doing all the same things. So we actually we we had great conversations and then we'd see each other on our like kind of Christmas, right? Our Christmas holiday parties, or uh yeah. So yeah, it was it was Shandeland, you know, it was when you know she had so many shows, which meant a lot of staff, and so we were able to intermingle and it was it was great. So Noah was great to work with.

SPEAKER_03 3:01

I wish I had horror stories, but but I but I don't we can do that when we when we've stopped recording. So um obviously Noah's had a career, and you've had a much, much more successful career. So um no, actually, this is oddly a question for Noah. When you were working together, did you think that in wherever we probably 12 years' time she would be on your podcast talking about being a showrunner? Did you did you see the potential when you were working in similar jobs a long time ago?

SPEAKER_02 3:32

I did. Uh at Shonda Land, there were some of the most talented people in the world, and you could see the potential in all of them. And I had my I have to say, Romla, those Friday chats we had were some of my favorite parts of the yeah. There were me and Meg, who by the way is now the showrunner of Gray's Anatomy. That's right. And we had long conversations every day to make sure that Shonda shows did not step on each other in regards to storylines. And yes, Ramla, you have popped from from what 2011 when I first met you, and you're still going strong today. But to set the table for the rest of our, you know, people who don't, you know, know you as well as I do, talk a little bit about sort of how you broke in and sort of your your path to where you are today.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

Yeah, so um, so I went to USC for grad school for writing, and um, and I had I'm actually from Los Angeles, so I came back from New York, I went to Columbia uh for undergrad and then moved in with my mom and I went to grad school and um and uh I actually ended up meeting uh a guy named Gabe Giannis, who was in my class and he worked on private practice as an intern and uh ultimately became like a PA. And um, and so he was like, oh, there's a there's an opening for a job on Gray's Anatomy for a PA. Send me your resume. And I remember I was like out in the world, you know, like, you know, walking or I don't know, wasting time because I had no job. And it was back in the day so long ago, I couldn't like I couldn't send my resume to him from my phone because I had to like go home and like get on a computer and send it. Uh so I like raced home and sent it. I got the interview I interviewed with um Mark Wilding, uh, who was like kind of like the number two or number three on the show. And yeah, I became a writer's PA on Gray's Anatomy. And then uh then Jenna Bands, who was uh a writer on the show, created this show called Off the Map. And when it became a pilot, when it went to pilot, she needed an assistant and asked me to be her assistant. And uh then that became a show, and that's how I became the uh the researcher on that show, but then off the map got canceled, and then I became the researcher on Scandal, and then you know, then I guess the rest is kind of history, but I I I really did do kind of all the steps. I I got kind of lucky because Shonda was a Shonda Lane was a place where she was developing multiple shows. So uh I had other friends who were assistants, but they're like kind of weren't places for growth necessarily. Uh, but uh yeah, but it was um it was it was good to be in a in an environment where there's somewhere to go.

SPEAKER_02 6:10

Talk talk to me a little bit about that moment on scandal where you were the medical researcher and at some point you were being transitioned onto staff. What was that conversation like and how did it obviously make you feel?

SPEAKER_00 6:25

Well, you know, so so I so the first thing, so I when I was on off the map, um, before off the map started, when I was Jenna's assistant, she was like, Oh, do you have a sample and love to read? And I was like, Oh, okay. And I really didn't, which was not, you know, the worst thing I could, but I was like, and then I was trying to like write it and have time, and then I just decided to create a little narrative for myself, which was called, which was called She's Never Gonna Staff an Assistant, right? So I was like, it's fine, you know. I was like, I don't have an ass sample. Other assistants sent in samples and she didn't, she stacked one of the assistants. And so uh, you know, that was a mess up on my part, but that actually helped me realize, okay, I can't be in this environment and not be like ready if I get an opportunity. So when I was became a researcher on scandal, uh Shonda allowed like a few assistants to write a couple scenes, like write a scene here or write a scene there. And that was kind of this is like your chance. So I I had like they had the weekend to write like one scene and I just spent like, I didn't go out. I stayed up like every I stayed up like this all night trying to make it right. I I added some kind of like it was like a Bible component. So I looked up scriptures and and what would work and and I came back and I turned in my scene and they loved it. They were like, oh my God, it's so good. Uh so I I do feel like the first opportunity that I lost helped me realize, like, okay, like I need to really, you know, I can't let these opportunities pass me by. Like I really need to dig in and make sure I'm I'm presenting the worst, the best worst, uh, the best version of of myself.

SPEAKER_03 8:03

So now you're the big boss. Um given that you came up in that system with obviously lots of people did incredibly well from there, and things like asking assistance to write scenes, I'm not not sure every showrunner does that. So now now you're the boss. Are there how much of what you do is steeped in what you learnt and what you saw around you on your way up?

SPEAKER_00 8:29

Yeah, I mean, I I say a lot. I I think as an assistant, particularly, you know, in in Chandeland, uh, you really it wasn't like you're working on network shows, right? So things move fast, you have to be paying attention, you have to have an attention to detail. So I learned a lot about just making sure that uh, you know, I'd read the revisions, making sure that I just knew what was going on. And and I got to observe, I got to sit back and kind of see how things come about and and last minute decisions, but then you know, they end up being great. And and also just what the actual job was, because I think some people want to be, you know, I want to be a showrunner, I want to be a writer without really knowing like what it is, and it's it's a lot of work. And for to be honest, for a long time I didn't even want to be a showrunner. I was like, it seems like too much work, you know. Shonda to say, like, oh, I was up until 2 a.m. and post, and I was like, ugh, that sounds terrible. I want to be asleep. So, so uh, so you know, but it does, it takes a lot of it takes a lot of dedicated dedication, and I'm happy that I was really able to see people like like Shonda and Mark Wilding and Krista Virnoff and Jenna Bands uh and Heather Mitchell, like people I, you know, really see what it what it takes to do the job.

SPEAKER_03 9:45

It's interesting you say that, because one of the things is definitely a recurring theme on this show is that showrunning is it's not really a job, it's three to five jobs, depending on who you ask. Um the fact that you said you didn't want, you know, you you you weren't sure that's what you were aspiring to. When when did that did it change when you got sort of one step away, or did it change earlier?

SPEAKER_00 10:11

Yeah, I say I say it changed. Yeah, I did once I was like, yeah, about one step away. And it was funny because Heather Mitchell, who worked on Scandal and then uh went on to create uh Still Star Crossed, he, you know, she she I was like a mid-level producer at the time, and we were friends, and the show shot in Spain. And I remember we were in Spain, you know, it was like with a glass of wine, and I was like, oh my god, this is like the dream, and I'm getting paid to do this. And uh, she was like, you know, what do you did? Do you think you want to be a showrunner? And I was like, oh no, no, no, thank you. I was like, I good, just getting up to maybe number two, maybe three, you know. And she was like, There's gonna come a point, she told me, she's like, There's gonna come a point where you're so close to making this the decisions, but you don't get to make the final decisions, and that will make you realize, uh, I think I do want to be a showrunner. And I was like, Yeah. And I in my mind, I was like, I don't care about that. And then, you know, then I was, and then I then I did, you know, get to that role where I was close to making decisions and didn't get the final decision when I was on Little Fires. And, you know, that was a great show, and Liz was an amazing showrunner. But I remember there was a song that I was like, oh, I think this song would be so great. And Liz was like, no, I like this song. And I was like, Oh, okay, this is it. Like, this is the thing, right? And the song she picked was great, but it just, it just was that moment where I'm like, oh, right, like I my voice is being heard, but it's I'm I don't get to really be like the last voice. And that became when I was like, I think I am ready to create create something of my own.

SPEAKER_03 11:46

Very good. I guess you're never gonna say no to this, but are you do you think you're nicer to the most junior person in the room because you were once the most junior person in the room?

SPEAKER_00 12:00

Oh, as far as yes, because I like I was very stressed out as a staff writer and story editor. I it like pitching was very scary. I feel like I'd have an idea, and then like in my head, and I'd be like, hey, should I say it? When should I say it? And then someone else would say something similar, and people would be like, oh my God, that was amazing. That's like the best idea I've ever heard in my life. And I was like, oh, like I was thinking, I was thinking that in my head. So then I'm like, okay, well, I'm a genius. So next idea I have, I'm just gonna say it. And then you say that idea, and then people are like, eh. And so, and so just this constant cycle of of self-evaluation and and I don't know, just being mortified at your own existence in some ways. So I do think that I do give grace to the to the staff writer. But at the same time, I also like worked really hard. Like I came in, even if I didn't have, you know, the best pitch, I would try to be one of the first people to talk in the morning. I woke up um in the morning to thinking about pitches. Sometimes I watch, I watched a lot of TV. I tried to watch as much as I could uh in order to just get in the rhythm of outbreaks and, you know, and stories and stuff like that. Um, and so I do, I do look at uh how hard a younger writer is working versus necessarily like, I'm not expecting them to like have the best ideas of the show. You you know what I mean? It's it is about really learning and asking questions and knowing the show. Like I could be like, you know, oh, we did that in 204 or whatever, or we are, or I'd be on set and the director be like, can we use this door? And I was like, We've we've never come out this door, or we came out this door once in season one and it's season five now, and we haven't, you know, so so that everyone has to find their superpower. And so I encourage younger writers to figure out like what is your superpower that you can bring to the show.

SPEAKER_02 13:53

Oh God, and I have so many things that you said along the way that I, you know, was thinking about and wanted to comment on. For starters, I totally agree with you that, and I say this all the time, that the best job in Hollywood probably in as a writer is like supervising producer. You're high enough, but you don't, and you're getting paid well, but you just don't have the pressure of the number one and the number two, and it's like you have a little bit of a life. So there's that. I also feel like you know, having come up from you know, basically the same journey, intern to right below Shorwander. I'm not where you're at, but the the the there is something about the writers that have gone through the ranks that I think have a little bit, and God bless those who don't, and who come in as executive producer, of course, we're all envious as hell when that happens, and it's not not not it's pretty rare, but that they, you know, those people like you that you've you worked your way up, you've you know what it takes to be not only like a good showrunner, but also like an executive story editor and a so you can assign the tasks accordingly. But which is sort of leading me to my question, which my first question is because you you ended on this, Ramla, what is your superpower right now? What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 14:58

Oh, what is my superpower? Yeah, I I'm I'm like a fan of TV, right? I feel like you know, sometimes people create shows or they run shows and they don't really either watch TV or they're not like, you know, and so you're just like, oh, they're just kind of doing what they think people will like. But I kind of come from it of like just just knowing what I would want to see. And and so that to me is is is what my superpower is. And also, um, I I just I I really feel like I am also in the zeitgeist. I I kind of am uh for the most part, I'm getting a little older now. So I'm like, like there's some things I'm like, oh, I don't know what that is anymore. Um but but I do try to kind of understand the temperature and and what's going on about things. And I and I also think um because of that, I really there are a lot of casts, like when I I cast have come in to the show, and I just I just feel like I'm like they're gonna be great. I just have this like feeling that comes kind of like overcomes me. And that that part of part of that creating a character and knowing like who would be great for it, the combination of it, I think, is what has made what has made people really kind of connect to the show.

SPEAKER_02 16:15

That's awesome. Let me now, I mean, we're here, you know, obviously we want to talk about reasonable doubt. So let's let's start talking about that show. The the Did you know, I mean, you you came off uh scandal, right? And then uh you worked for Heather, and you obviously at that point realized that you you it's time for you to come up with ideas of your own, sell ideas of your own, pitch ideas of your own. Was where where was reasonable doubt in the progression of ideas that you were coming up with and trying to sell? And was there you know, obviously, because it it it as a first-time showrunner and show creator, you got it on the air. It's not only did you get it on the air, you're now in season four, which is a huge accomplishment in streaming where they love to cancel things season two and season three. So you made it through that threshold, but was there something uh magical is the wrong word, but did you like a shiny bright object about reasonable doubt through the development process, or was it a struggle and it just somehow came all together in the end?

SPEAKER_00 17:12

Yeah, I mean, I had definitely, you know, written, you know, pilots before that didn't go, like um, you know, when my I got my deal in 2018 with ABC signature at the time. And uh yeah, I I wrote a couple pilots I that I some of them I thought were pretty strong. And you know, you think, oh, they're gonna shoot it or what's gonna happen. And it was like, yeah, you know, we don't know, no, thank you. Uh and I I have I I I had this pilot in like for HBO with Issa Rae that, you know, was um that I got while I was still on Scandal, was developing that. So it did, you know, it it definitely felt like, oh, scandal's ending and now I'm going to HBO to play with Esa Rae. And so, and so you do, you think like you're like, okay, like this is the trajectory. But uh that technically I think is still in development. But between the between both of us just being redeveloped and us, you know, working on shows and and different things, it just didn't come to fruition. But then with reasonable doubt, reasonable doubt, Larry Wilmore and Carrie Washington uh had this woman, Sean Hawley, that they really liked who was like a black female lawyer, kind of like in the Judy Smith vein, right? Where like there's a person that then you create a show, not based on them and their life, but kind of inspired by. And so uh I was kind of busy at the time and I was like, I, you know, I think this is a show. I just don't really have time because for me, I want to like put everything into to what I'm doing and be able to have the time to write it. And so uh it kind of came back around when another project failed, and then we sold it to ABC Network and in the room. Like it was like one of those like soldier in the room, and it's like, okay, we're doing develop it. And you know, I think for the network, it just it just didn't quite hit. It was a different show. She was a little more like life is perfect, and it was procedural, and and um, and then the studio said, okay, well, let's redevelop it for streaming, and then COVID happened. So then I kind of in some ways, I just kind of got to just do what I wanted, I'm not gonna say do what I wanted, but a little bit because everyone was like, the world is ending and shutting down and and no one really knew what was going on. So I just was kind of in my house at the time. I had liberty house in Laurel Laurel Canyon, and I just was like in this, like, you know, just looking out my little window and and recreating the show and writing what I thought, you know, I wanted to see. And that was like mid-2020. And then, you know, then they picked up the show a year later and ordered some scripts when Odysse was formed. And uh then a year after that, it was on the air. So it definitely went through ups and downs, but I sold a version of Reasonable Doubt in the room August of 2019, and then it went on the air in August of 2022. So uh so it's yeah, it's a lot of ups and downs for sure.

SPEAKER_03 20:01

So I having never worked in your world, I'm I uh I'm always fascinated by the sort of those those moments and how you celebrate them. Because obviously it's tricky in your world because you know, somebody says yes to something and you think it's the it's the the final yes, but actually there's still four more yeses until it got to the buttons. Um so let's forget the nine the the the pre-COVID one, but when it actually when you actually got to the moment where it was made and it was actually being aired for real, what were you what was that for you, you know, finally the thing that you you know made up in your head um is now on a screen being watched. What was what was that like? And did you what did you do to celebrate, if anything?

SPEAKER_00 20:44

Well, it first of all, it was very it was emotional, obviously, but it was also very strange. And and when I saw what the first time I watched it with an audience, you know, I till this day I still don't like the table reads, like like just as a writer, like you're like, oh God, I hope they laugh or I hope they do the thing, you know, when I hope it's read and it works and all this stuff. So it's it's a little stressful. So then watching it with the audience and like being like, oh, okay, I hope that, I don't know, hope that worked out. I it it's it's still a little nerve-wracking. I will say, um, you know, to celebrate, we they had a premiere for the show, and I was able to bring my family and like a lot of my close friends. And that was really fun to just get to just all celebrate together because our motto was kind of like, if one of us wins, we all win. And so um that was that was definitely very special. But I I kind of buy myself a little gift every time something happens with the show. Like when they pick up the show, like a room and for production, I buy myself a little gift. When production starts, I buy myself a gift. When we wrap production, I buy myself a gift, and then when it airs, I buy myself a gift because all of those are things that don't aren't guaranteed. To happen, right? They could pick up the show and for some reason they decide not to go to production. We could start production, they could shut down production, right? Like they could I could finish production and they decide not to air the show. So not until I see it on a side of a bus, I don't really then I know, oh, okay, it is, they are gonna air this. So uh that's you know, I I I but again, like you said, I take the wins, right? Getting to a season four is a win. Getting season four on the air is another win. And so uh so I don't I don't take any of those things for granted for sure.

SPEAKER_03 22:33

So you don't have to tell me exactly what the gift is, but are we talking like you know, treating yourself to a night out? Are we talking piece of jewelry so you've got you can see them as a collection?

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Like what like yeah, it it's it really is a range. It can be like a vacation, it can be like a a ring, a bracelet. Like it it it it's really and once I got a piece of luggage that I really wanted, it just it's just like something that I just like in like this is for me, and this is not, I don't, and also I don't need a gift from anyone else. Like I can I can buy my own thing and I can walk into a store and get this for me, and it's just for me.

SPEAKER_03 23:11

So um again, you'll forgive me for not understanding entirely how this works. I'm not in the industry, but it's been interesting. We had a we had a gentleman on, I think it was three or four episodes ago, who had a show that he created, and he basically he he thought it was gonna be one season. So when they renewed it to his surprise, he didn't have any idea what the it would be for for season two and had to sort of. Um so for you, obviously you're now on to four. When you're doing it, are you thinking this is gonna be the last one, or do you sort of this is gonna be the last one? But here's my out just in case. Like, how do you go about the process of preparing for the best and for the worst?

SPEAKER_00 23:52

Yeah, I mean, so I you know, when I pitched the series, like they wanted to hear other possible seasons. So I pitched out four seasons. I not like in detail, but like, you know, I pitched season one in detail and then season two, three, four. I knew the cases and you know, some turns. And to be honest, like I season four was supposed what I have for season four actually ended up being season two. But so I but I for the most part have kind of stuck about to what I was gonna do. Um, but I will say, uh, you know, I do try to end every season with a cliffhanger in order to like kind of force them to pick up the show because like, well, I can't just leave it like that, obviously. Uh so it definitely helps with the fans to in this, it's in this day and age where, you know, you just don't know. Some shows are limited, uh, the way things end. Uh sometimes it's not clear if there's gonna be another season. So I think in some ways it forces it to be kind of in the audience's hands, right? To to push for another season because they want to know what happens and they want to keep watching. So uh so I, you know, I just I just end it and just hope it works out. I don't even I don't really have a like a super, super plan for for it for it at all.

SPEAKER_02 25:07

Let's let's talk a little bit about uh fear. You you you create a show, you come off big shows, you come off shows with some of the most powerful and talented showrunners in the history of of television, right? And I'm sure you learned a lot from them along the way. You're still working with the extremely wonderful and powerful Kerry Washington, who I'm sure is a great ally for you. But at the end of the day, the buck stops with you. So that first day, you know, I'm trying to put myself in your shoes. And I have this weird memory of you having fantastic boots, by the way. So you're you're you're wearing a pair of fantastic in my head, you're you're you're wearing a pair of fantastic boots.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

They're from Target, but thank you.

SPEAKER_02 25:48

And about to walk in for the very first day. Like, what is what's your mindset? Are you you ready to kick ass? Are you nervous?

SPEAKER_00 25:55

How are you, how are you feeling emotionally going into this, you know, um, you know, I spent so much time on sets, like producing the episodes, um, that actually what happened was that I just showed up as a writer on set. So I just kind of showed up the way I usually showed up, right? Like, which is like staying out of the way. And if someone comes and asks me something, you know, they asked me something, talking to the crew, you know, saying hello, just normal. And by day four, um, one of the guys who was the dit, who was the dit, um working the who's people don't know, like kind of works, loads organizes the picture with the DP and all the stuff. And that's a terrible way to explain it, but it's kind of what it is. But but um he was like, Oh, he's like, I um he was like, I saw your name on the script. I didn't realize you wrote the script. And I was like, Yeah, like I am the showrunner. And he was like, Oh, that's really cool. Like he's like, so like, so this, like, so he's like, so are you like what's what's your role? Or like, like, are you and I was like, well, I'm kind of your boss. And I had to like say it out loud. And I realized, like, oh, I don't, I haven't really been acting like anyone's boss. And I don't, and I don't mean that like where I should be like walking around and yelling at people, but I think in some ways I was so comfortable in the like backseat role, right? And I was like, my like props of putting my chair, like it was like Carrie and Lyra, and then like my chair was like three rows back. Then I'm like, oh, I don't think anyone realizes that I'm in charge because I'm not kind of playing or looking the part. So I I realized that I needed to like talk more, right? Like I ended up getting everyone like gifts saying like from the showrunner, me, and and people are like, oh, thanks. And and then we're like putting it together because I think I I think that that was the change that I I needed to make, which was being okay to like kind of be heard and be and not kind of disappear into the shadows.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

I that's we've had a lot of we we say this sometimes on the show, but we've had a lot of episodes and a lot of answers. This was a great answer. This is something we've never heard before. Somebody just and by the way, it also brought a lot of memories up for me because you know, one of my roles as a producer for Shonda and Betsy was to go to set because they told me once, Shonda and Betsy together, that when they go to set, somebody thinks somebody's getting fired. Right, right. So you go to set because nobody's getting fired and we need something. And I'd be like, oh, that's that's interesting. So now that you're in season four, when and I remember by the way, you once had a lot, you know, all the young writers and mid, you know, mid producers being on set and whatever. But like now that you're in season four, when Romlow walks on set, are people like, oh no, is somebody gonna get fired? Or is this more like you know, they get you at this point and you're there?

SPEAKER_00 28:47

Yeah, no, you know, I'm I we shoot in Atlanta. When I we shoot shot in LA, I was on set a lot. Obviously, it was the first season. Um, but even like season two, I and you know, like my whole family's here in LA, like I love LA. And I made a decision. I actually moved to Atlanta season two. And I will say I was a little bit like, ugh, I don't want to do it. But when I called each actor, the regulars, and I said, look, we're moving the show to Atlanta, you know, they were like, you know, and I said, but don't worry, I'll be there too. I'm moving too. The relief they felt, I was like, okay, this is a good idea. And I even brought in, you know, one of our first ADs from LA. I I brought in a few people from LA just as like kind of for comfort in some ways, just so that the transition would be, would be easier. And um, and so I I am on, I was on set a lot season two uh and you know, a lot season three. But it was funny because they I spoiled them a little bit because then I'll come back to LA for a week, you know, and they'll be like, where have you been? I'm like, okay, like I don't have to run the show. I can't just sit here on set all the time. And so now, you know, last year of season four, so I did like kind of a month here, month there. But, you know, sometimes I will mostly for the actors, if I go on set, I will try to like hide a little bit because sometimes I feel like if they're acting, like they kind of get a little like, oh, okay, I gotta, you know, really like make sure I'm I'm I'm bringing it. So I just want them to be in their, you know, natural, natural state. So now, yes, I actually will kind of, you know, try not to disrupt things too much. But um, but yeah, I I love being on set. Like I said, I was on set a lot. I love seeing the process. To me, watching, even though, you know, you write the words, watching them come to life is like a whole other experience. And so I'm just, I I just I just love it. So if I if I can be on set as as much as I can, I think when they see me, um, I think it's probably the opposite. When they see me on set and then I'm gone, then they go, oh, something must have happened.

SPEAKER_02 30:52

Something's brewing.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

Yeah, yeah, something must have happened.

SPEAKER_03 30:56

So um I I think I'm allowed to ask this question. Um so if you had a choice between season five and six of this show, or season one and two of a brand new show that you created, what would you prefer? Like, are you is it is it something exciting about continuing something you created, or more exciting about doing another one? Or am I not allowed to do that?

SPEAKER_00 31:24

I I think I mean if I had to choose probably season five and six of this show. I mean, it's it's uh it's it's nice when you find a groove and you find I have a great group of writers, you know, and and even now like just the crew and the department, like just we're on a rhythm, and that's what happened at Scandal. Like when you when you get into that, it's so nice to you feel like you're coming back to like a family in some ways when it's the same people. Um, so I do I do like that. And I and also it's still, you know, although it's yes, it would be it's exciting to think about creating a new show and starting off from scratch, but it also is it's a challenge because you have to entertain the audience while also giving them a lot of information about this new show. And and now there's even more pressure, I think, with streaming because there's so many shows and competition to like hook them in 30 seconds or else you'll never get them again. And so, and so thinking about that, you know, is is a little stressful. But for me, I I only want to do things that I'm excited about. I I don't, you know, I don't really have like a need to kind of, you know, just keep doing shows to do shows. Like I I want anything that has my name on it, I want to feel proud of it and and you know, feel like I can give it the attention that it merits.

SPEAKER_03 32:40

So um I hope this question doesn't come across as mean. So um the often on here we talk about sort of imposter syndrome and that sort of stuff. Now, normally, to be honest, that the guest says it before we follow up, and I'm now just bringing this in, even though you've not said it yet. So I'm not trying to be mean, but this is it's a real question, in the sense that we've had people on here who've done sort of they've showrun three or four shows and they worry that they'll never do a fifth because just the way the world works.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:08

You've now you've you've obviously had this show, it's incredibly successful. Long may it continue. Is there a part of you that's like, I wonder if I'll ever get another one? Not nothing to do with you, but more to do with the environment you're in.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

Uh no, I don't really have that fear, but I also, if I don't, I don't, you know, like I I don't, I don't, I guess the fear would be me wanting to like really badly do like do another one um and being scared that I'm not gonna get that ability. But I I but that's what I'm saying. Like, I I feel like I want to do a show when I'm like, oh, I'm excited about this idea and I'm excited about the characters, and I can't wait to like talk about them and you know, because I then or else I think if I just want another show, I feel like then I'm just gonna be doing some show that I actually can't really write. It's not because not everyone can write all the things, right? Like if I, if someone was like, there's a you know, a Star Wars mov uh TV show that they're doing and it's you know, and and we want you to come and and do it, I'd be like, ooh, I don't, I don't know. I don't know. I don't think that's gonna, I don't know if I can write that. I don't know, you know what I mean? Like I just because I could write this and create a hit doesn't mean I can do it on any subject matter. Uh yeah, I you know, I watch, I watch shows like, I mean, you know, The Agency or Lioness, and I love those shows, but I and I just I don't know if I could write that show. Uh so I I just think I I think sometimes you hit and you just like I'm just kind of really locked into the show and what it is and the rhythm and all the stuff, and that's very exciting. So I do I hope that I find something else that also can be exciting. Yeah, but I also don't know if that medium is I don't know if that's in television, I don't know if that's in movie, you know, I don't know what that's gonna be. But I, you know, I I hope that yes, at some point one day in life, that you know, there'll be something else that I creatively connect to, like the show.

SPEAKER_02 35:05

I I I think I think too, in this world of like there was maybe an answer during Peak TV. It's like, let's create as many shows as we can. But I think you're kind of in a rarefied era right now where you've on a streaming platform, you've created a show that has, you know, deep into its fourth season and and made made go fifth, sixth, seventh season. And not only are you creating a show that's entertaining for a lot of people around the world, you're also providing a steady source of income for a particular crew of people who who, you know, it's the responsibility has changed because our world has changed, I think, a little bit for like answers would change.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And also just, you know, this is like it's also rare for a show to grow in in its fourth season, you know. So we're finding new fans and and uh and and that's exciting. So in some ways, it's like I get to kind of reinvent it with different seasons. And and every because of the premise of the show, because she has a new case every season, I do get to explore different themes uh within the same show. So that that I think that's super enjoyable. And and Noah, you know, knows like coming from my researcher, you know, our researcher days, that that part of me is still in there. I like to kind of look up things and look up ideas and and and yeah, and and think about things from that perspective.

SPEAKER_02 36:19

We would love to chat with you all day, every day, but especially now we'd like to chat you with you for as long as we can. But we sadly are at our very last question. And this is a question Romney we ask every single person that comes on our show. And the question is is if you could give one piece of advice to somebody joining the industry, in this case as a TV writer, what would that be?

SPEAKER_00 36:42

Oh, so I I give this advice all the time because it was the best advice that was given to me by Peter Noah, who um was a writer on Scandal and now is on the diplomat. But he said, you can be a genius in one room and a moron in the other. And so I think what happens sometimes, like if we're coming into this industry, we are so desperate to know people's opinions about things, right? Like, like, am I good enough? Can I do it? Am I right? Like, you know, what is it? And if you just happen to be in the room where people think you're a moron, they're gonna go, it this ain't it for you, kid. It's you know, it's the end of the rope. And then sometimes you hold on to that and that dictates what you do for the rest of your life. Um, and uh, and if you're in the genius room, then you know, you go on and you think you're genius and you keep going. But I think you have to remove your self-worth uh and your and your ego from other people, what other people think of you. So, or also become the puppeteer uh in your, you know, in your career and also in just how you see yourself. And so I think you have to figure out for yourself, like what kind of writer are you? Who do you want to be? Um, if you want to be a TV writer, great, but okay, maybe you want to also direct. Okay, get into verticals, put your content on YouTube, put your, you know, like like I don't think there's a traditional way to do this. So I think the best advice is to just um yeah, just know your own self-worth and don't have a timeline because the minute you have a timeline, you're in trouble because there's there's no real path here. The only the only path is the uh for the people who continue on the path. Uh so that's that's when you get the things that you want.

SPEAKER_03 38:26

That is such a great answer. Uh thank you. I love that. Um I want to say something mean about Noah here, why he should really cling on to that, but I'm I'm not going, I'm not going to, but um, that is a great answer. Um to go with a whole series of other great answers. Um so um Ramna Mohammed Hunter, thank you very much indeed uh for coming on our show and good luck with future seasons of Reasonable Doubt.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

Oh, thank you so much, and what a great podcast. Thank you guys, appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 38:55

Thank you so much, Ramna.

SPEAKER_00 38:56

Okay, bye.

unknown 38:58

Bye.

SPEAKER_02 39:02

Thank you so much for listening, and thank you, King Flash, for the music. And our wives for putting up with our comments. As always, each episode is brought to you by Scriptation, my favorite screenwriting annotation software. If you want to support the show, please download a copy at www.scriptation.com backslash.

SPEAKER_03 39:23

Or perhaps even better, www.scriptation.com backslash Dan. Dan is spelled n H.

SPEAKER_02 39:32

If you want to find me on social media, I'm at Twitter at n Epsilon and more recently on threads at no epsilon.

SPEAKER_03 39:42

Don't worry about me on social media, because all you people seem to care about each other anyway.