Take 122 - Writer, Producer, Showrunner Wendy West, Law and Order SVU, Dexter, FBI: Most Wanted

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Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for shore, dozens of unproduced script literature.

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All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

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Thank you for all who sent thoughts and gave money. Just another reminder that life is short. Follow your dreams, follow your heart, and never give up. Steve, this one is for you.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a pod a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. I am as ever your non-entertainment co-host Dan Rutstein.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

And I am your still in the entertainment business, co-host Noah Epslin. For this week's podcast, I'm thrilled to introduce TV writer and producer Wendy West to the show. Wendy has been on no less than 21 shows, such as Law and Order, SBU, The Practice, Numbers, The Closer, Dexter, The Blacklist, Take In, and Ultraviolet, which she also created. And now most recently, she's working on FBI Most Wanted. She's also currently a mentor, mentor for the Veterans Writers program. Welcome, Wendy.

SPEAKER_03 3:05

Hi guys, it's nice to see you.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

Because not only do you have a very extensive list of credits, um, this is one of the rare occasions where I've actually watched quite a lot of the shows. Fantastic. We've done normally happen. That's awesome. Um, I I sort of feel like I have to be nice to you on this episode, which is not what I'm really comfortable with. Um, so I guess I mean, let's start with that basic premise, which is you've been on a lot of shows. Um, a lot of them have been very successful. Uh I know somebody didn't like the ending of Dexter, but apart from that, they've all been very successful. Um have you had much time to fail in between all of these successes?

SPEAKER_03 3:52

Oh, sure. I mean, I've been on shows that, you know, go one season, go nine episodes, and then I mean, my my second job, this is this will date me, but I was uh on a show called Hollyweird that Sean Cassidy and Wes Craven co-created, and they decided not to move forward with it. But we found out by standing over the fax machine, and Variety was faxing our cancellation notice uh too wide. So they didn't even let us know. The studio let Variety know before they let us know. So that was we had, you know, we were days away from production on that show, you know. Cast, everything sets were built. It was just, but it was just so um, you know, galling to be standing over the fax machine and just seeing, you know, seeing the news article that we were being canceled, you know. Just drag.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Uh an extraordinary way to find it out in the well that surprising, I guess, in this town.

SPEAKER_03 4:45

No, I guess not.

SPEAKER_01 4:47

Where because obviously you've you've you've been on on the successful shows. Is when when when did you feel like you had a sustainable, continuous career? Like when had you done enough that you thought, I think I could probably do this for a while.

SPEAKER_03 5:04

I don't know that you ever completely feel that way. I mean, I feel like maybe if I had you know created a juggernaut, I would feel like I had some staying power. But I feel like um, you know, my parents were both teachers, and you know, that's a very stable, secure job. And, you know, when I was first starting out and I was between jobs, you know, they would ask if I, you know, had checked the one ads, all that sort of stuff. Um, I think you're you're just I think you're always looking for a seat at the table, you know, and you always, you know, show up and want to do your best and pray that it works out. I mean, I I've been, you know, it was wonderful to be on Dexter for so long, but even that, you know, is you know, every year you just you want to do your best so you're asked back, you know. Same with FBI Most Wanted. I mean, I've been there four years. And every year you just, you know, you want to make sure you've got great shows, great ideas. You're you're adding rather than subtracting. Somebody told me there's three kinds, there's three kinds of writers. There's the writers that push the rock up the hill, the writer that stands on the rock, and then the writers that are actively pushing the rock back down the hill. So you just want to be pushing the rock up the hill, it feels like.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

Wendy, I feel like I'm a writer who's often getting rolled over by the rock. So I might put myself in that fourth category. Let's set the table a little bit uh on your career. Obviously, you've been on a tremendous amount of really great shows, a lot of them network shows. Uh, you know, when did you where did your path begin? Was network TV a goal of yours? Was there any goals, or did the career find you? How did you break into the very first time?

SPEAKER_03 6:33

I think that's well said. I mean, I um I had a ER and an X-File spec, and I got hired um on a show that was on the WB, that was before it was rebranded as a CW. And it was, you know, the fifth and sixth network, the UPN were being was being launched. And it was, you know, there were four networks. It was at the networks and there was Fox. So it was a time when it was, you know, before the proliferation of shows that we've had in cable and in streaming, you know. Um, and I I was very lucky to be on Law and Order as a young writer because I learned, I learned how to do procedural. Like it's a wonderful place for uh anyone to learn structure. Because Law and Order specifically has, you know, at least back in the day for sure, it had, you know, very set act breaks. And you would write towards the twist, the arrest, the twist, and the prosecution, and then the finale, you know. And it I my father worked in a prison, but other than that, I don't have any law enforcement background. So I just tucked in with detectives wherever I could and you know, would go on ride-alongs, would go to morgues, would do as much research as I could do. I still, I mean, I still really love detectives. I really love morgues. Uh I know that's weird, but a good morgue is fascinating. Miami has a great morgue, New Orleans had a great morgue. But I just try to do as much research, I guess, as possible.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

But here's a question that connects both the present to your past. I I hear a lot of discussions about this being the hardest time in Hollywood history right now with the contraction and coming out of the strike. But you just mentioned at the start of your career, and at the start of my career too, there was four networks with the addition of two more. Right. That's not a lot of, and they have they didn't have libraries, they had set time slots so there could maybe be a certain amount of shows and there's a certain amount of jobs. Is the industry in fact harder today than it was when you were coming up? And you can you talk a little bit about coming up as sort of a young woman in this sort of crime procedural world?

SPEAKER_03 8:34

Sure. Um I'll tell I'll answer your questions in the order you asked. The first is I mean, I um during the strike wrote a pilot and you know, have been trying to sell it. And it's interesting, it's a little uh it's a little edgy. And the feedback I've been getting is that they don't want anything that doesn't have IP or anything that's not edgy. Um, so it feels it feels harder to sell now than it did. Um I think staffing is always is always challenging, you know, it's always a rotating table of you know who you might know and who wants to you want to spend time with and they want to spend time with you. And, you know, I will say, um, when I was coming up, I was often the only woman on these uh heavily sort of, you might say, you know, male shows, you know, cop shows, you know, these shows that are high on testosterone and action shows. And that that was challenging. I mean, I I feel like the benefit of Me Too has been has taken like a lot of the harassment off the table and um, you know, working with female directors, a lot more female writers. Um, that's just been it's been great.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

Very good. So um we had I can't remember, maybe last season, the season before, we had a writer who was on Law and Order SUV, and then one of the reasons they decided to leave was uh it was all a bit I think they had a family, it was all a bit dark and so you know you you've got a lot of darkness there between the you know between the various shows um and you know the Dexter was you know less realistic as it were, but yeah, but FBI Most Wanted, I I'm you know, I know maybe they don't advertise their rip from the headlines in the way that Law and Order did, but when we watch it, there's definitely things that we know are real things. Um how do you just sort of how do you uh separate that, particularly when you know the bit that we don't see, because obviously you write these things, but it's like the research that you do and the real cases you have to read and the morgues you have to visit. How do you sort of you seem actually a very nice, positive, upbeat person? So how do you marry that with you know going through gruesome murders of children and all that sort of stuff?

SPEAKER_03 10:50

I guess part of it is true compartmentalization. I did hit a point, I don't know, maybe um seven or eight years ago. And my friend Janine and I were in the same boat. We were just she was on criminal minds and we had this lunch together. We were like, we just wanted not kill people for a year, you know, like there was there is a tonnage that can happen, but you know, we sort of we each just wrote other things at that point, and then it and then the interesting thing about crime shows is the stakes don't ever get higher, you know, led than life and death. It's as high as you can get. And it's it's great to be able to write to those circumstances and have people's lives on the line and saving lives. You know, our show is about saving people as much as we can. And I I guess that sort of balances out the tonnage issue. I mean, I I guess, you know, the the longer you live, the the more you deal with, you know, your family passing, your parents passing, or you know, close family members passing. And it's um, I don't know, it's it's I don't know if reassuring is the right word, but it's it's always stimulating to engage with mortality, you know. We're all we're we're all you know, we're all on the same ride, you know. And my mom's in hospice right now, and the her hospice, her nurse is so interesting because she's like, you only die once, and we don't ever hear how we can do it better, you know. So it's it's just an always it's just an always engaging uh conversation because it is it is what the stuff of life is about.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

So I actually once talked to Noah about this because he was on NCIS and he talked about sort of engaging with the the consultants who actually work in that world. Um just from you, because obviously you will have over the years spent a lot of time not just doing the research, but actually, you know, talking to detectives and all that sort of stuff, just in terms of how they feel about these shows. This is separate from the sort of specific notes that they might give you, but the sort of general feedback on these sort of shows, do they are they pleased your humanizing sort of law enforcement? Do they like that you're shining a light on the sort of work that they do? Do they spend all their time saying that none of this is realistic and it's less, less or more or less glamorous? So what sort of interactions do you do you have? And how has that shaped how you've maybe done things differently later in your career?

SPEAKER_03 13:12

I I feel like when you're working with a great detective or a great consultant, you're trying to get the truth of their experience on screen. And I I feel like even if you know you're saying, I understand that's not how it works, but how could it work? They, if you, if you're working, you know, everything you're doing is hopefully going to be respectful of their journey and their time and their you know, their immense knowledge, body of knowledge. Um, and I think if we're if we're working to connect, to to set to tell some truth that they've had about the human experience, fantastic. I mean, the best, one of the best technical consultants I ever worked with, our our consultant on the FBI most wanted is amazing right now. His name is Scott Gariola. And our consultant on the closer, his name was Mike Bircham, and he was retired. So he had a little bit of distance from the LAPD. And he was a phenomenal resource, an interesting life that he led. And, you know, I think his truth always seeped into our episodes. And I think an audience can tell when you've done your research, it's just it's macx of the truth. It just feels different, you know. So I we try to make things as realistic as we can just to ground the stories as much as possible. Um, I mean, I if if the consultants in the game, they're usually there to have a little bit of fun too. So I think maybe it's it's in some in some ways it's great. They don't have to deal with paperwork. You know, it's like you can tell the fun stories without all the other, you know, crossing your teeth and dotting your eyes that is so much part of that job that isn't, you know, great for TV. It's you know, the bureaucracy is, I mean, David Simon did the best job capturing it around, but you know, he made it stimulating and interesting, but it's it's a drag rest of the rest of the time, you know.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

So uh this is this is not I guess I guess this is a real question, but it's more for my edification because I'm I do watch a lot of these shows and I'm interested. I know again, sorry, from like Noah has told me when he used to work on Grey's Anatomy, they'd like write dialogue and they just put medical, medical in medical, medical, yeah. Um do you have the equivalent if you sort of write your dialogue and put sort of police words, please words, descriptions of weird, complicated things, and then or is yours before you actually write it and then they check it, or do you leave gaps to them?

SPEAKER_03 15:19

I try to write I try to do a rough draft so that I can call them and and you know, I've sent them script pages, or I'll read them dialogue. And it's so great to read your dialogue out loud because if it's clunky, you know right away. Um, but I I try to say what I need, and then they'll come in and say, Oh, that's the code 132A, that you know, you're called the police scanner. And you know, New York has different codes than LA, and you have to make sure your codes are all right and your jurisdictions are all right. Um, but I I always do a rough draft, but every once in a while, I when I'm doing a medical something, I I'll put medical medical because I've heard that. I've heard that too. And when you're you know proofreading your script, it's easy to find those two words, which is good too.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

This is this is the most I've ever heard Dan reference my career in in a mildly positive way. Um you mentioned um the Me Too movement, and I kind of want to just drill down on it a little bit. You'd mentioned that things changed after the Me Too moment. So we'll do a pre and post Me Too question, but let's talk about the pre. If things changed, and obviously I'm not suggesting things weren't bad. I I know they were bad. So things were bad, and there obviously must have been experiences that you dealt with in those early years, pre-me too, when I mean Hollywood's always sort of been the wild west when it comes to HR, but it's really the wild west. And you talk about being the only woman in some of these rooms. Can you talk about specifically any of these experiences that left you going like, man, this, you know, I want to go back to Albuquerque. This might not be me. Like that kind of left you. Well, you don't have to name names, but just experiences left you know rattled.

SPEAKER_03 16:54

I mean, just I mean, I feel like all the all that's been written about the movie two movement captured um what it can be like to be in a room. And you you can't stop the conversation, you know, if it's on story, but you know, it would always go off to like, you know, what somebody, who somebody hooked up with, like that this guy that would buy girls' gift cards just to go out for go go out with them. Like, you know, everyone's different relationships to dating and they're talking, they're kind of post talk the next morning. A lot of it, you know, for as graphic as it could be, it's you know, you you f I would find myself um not not just sort of like going along and waiting for the topic to change, you know. Um, because it, you know, at the end of the day, we're all still trying to tell an interesting, great story. And so I mean, uh most of the time you could pull the the conversation back to the story, the script that you're breaking in hand, the story, the the beats in hand, and it would get better. It, you know, I just I mean, I and when I was first starting out, I would have experiences on different various shows that um were just uh you know, they were they were they were just the kind of conversations that wouldn't, you know, hold any water today, which is thank goodness, you know.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

Were were you kind of back then, was it more like, you know, especially in comedy rooms, which neither of us, you know, are comedy writers, but like I've heard storage in comedy rooms, the women in comedy rooms where it's just like mind-blowing, but it was it more like this is a bad phrase, but I'm gonna use it, you know, I gotta put my big boy pants on and just deal with some of this stuff because that's how the business is, and the business is not going to change. However, the business did change, or was there more of like, how do you kind of because I get the power struggles? Yeah. Like, how do you, you know, face some of that stuff and be in like, like, and and just sort of, you know, walk away going, I handled that okay, or this was the only way to handle that situation in this time period?

SPEAKER_03 18:52

I mean, there's there's two things that come to mind. One is um, you know, for the most part, the uh kind of gross behavior was kind of like a fart in the elevator. You just look away and can't wait to get off and leave the cloud behind you. I did have an incident though on a show where uh a guest actress came to me because um some of the male actors had been really um inappropriate with her. And I didn't know how to handle it. And I, you know, I ended up saying to her a version of, I understand, I've been exactly where you've been, I know what it's like, but I didn't go to the showrunner and I didn't go to HR. And I regret that, you know, to this day. I've seen her out about and she's had a great career, but um, we ran into each other once just randomly at a restaurant. And, you know, I just felt like I could have done, you know, so much more. I should have, I should have been a better advocate for her, you know. Um, but it was, I mean, it was not, it was, you know, my attitude at that point was this is what it's like to be in the business as a woman. And that's just part of it. And I wouldn't have that attitude today, and I hope I wouldn't behave the same way. I don't think that would even happen again today. Um, but the, you know, the person that um was inappropriate with her was like number one on the call sheet. He's a big star still today, you know. Uh he has his own show. And um and I, yeah, I that's a huge regret I have. I wish I, I really wish I could have handled that differently.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

You're you're now either in charge of a room or very near the top of the room now. You're you're at that stage.

SPEAKER_03 20:33

We have a our our our showrunner is David Hudgens. He's amazing, good as gold. I'd go to war for him, but he he runs the show.

SPEAKER_01 20:39

Yeah, but sorry, but just in terms of the pecking order, you're much you're nearer the top thanks.

SPEAKER_03 20:43

There are a couple of us that are around there, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

Yeah, how do you manage your seniority? Obviously, the world's changed because me too has surfaced a lot of these things, and a lot of people now aren't even the bad ones aren't working in a lot of rooms now. But in terms of you know young female writers you've got in your rooms, do you sort of make sure that they get looked after properly? I sure try. I sure try.

SPEAKER_03 21:13

Yeah, like try like like I'll try to have like one-on-ones or like girls-only zoom coffee cocktail hour, you know, or Christmas party for ladies, you know. Um definitely, definitely doors always open. Anything I can do to help them, I'm happy to do. I mean, I came from the generation where the women that were right before me weren't, some of them weren't so helpful, you know, get it helping you. And I it was it was hard to work with some powerful women that were like, like kind of had my attitude towards this other woman. You know, it's like it was tough for me, so it'll be tough for you. I don't feel like that's the case at all. I try not to behave that way. I mean, any anybody that's new, and especially a woman, you know, you you just you want to help as much as possible, you know?

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Yeah. So I guess a question about where what you want from Hollywood now. So done a lot of shows. Uh some of them similar, but you've branched, you know, they're not all exactly the same, obviously. Um, you know, you've you've had a taste of being a showrunner, albeit in a sort of different setup for what a showrunner is in a different country. What is your ideal sort of uh future Hollywood? Is it you know creating from scratch your own show and you running that one? Is it to showrun an existing one of maybe one of the big shows that one of the franchise sort of shows out there? You know, is it to go off and write comic books and and novels and do movies? Like what is it that would give you satisfaction over the next five to ten years of your career?

SPEAKER_03 22:53

I think I'd love to tell a version of my story, my you know, my emotional story of you know, being an only kid of divorced parents and taking a character that had that backstory and putting her in an unusual situation. I think it'd be really fun to create that show and see it sit on its legs for three seasons. That would be fun. I also get tremendous satisfaction from working with the Writers Guild Foundation in the Veterans Um writing program. Like it's a group of people, it's a year-long uh program for the veterans. And they're all people that are, you know, because of their military experience in their second chapters of life, and they're they've lived lives that couldn't be more different than mine. And it's, you know, this is my third year doing it, and every year we've had fantastic scripts, and they're great, really fun, great people. So I hope to continue that as long as it it's it's around, you know, in whatever capacity. It's really it's a great program.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

I've I've yeah, I've seen a lot of people coming out of that program, and there's so Dan and I were just talking before the podcast that there's so few ways in the industry or access point, and obviously this is one of them. Um, you know, which leads me to this next question. You've had so many, you've been on, you know, amazing run of shows. You've worked for a really long time. Does the business still excite you? Does waking up every morning and going to the room or hundred percent?

SPEAKER_03 24:16

Love it. I I I love it. I love working for David, I love our show. I love working with my veterans. Like I it's I we have pitch night next week, and you know, last night we all practiced their pitches and they're all great. Like they're fantastic. And it's I mean, it's super exc, I mean, work is still super exciting. Like we have uh Dylan McDermott is our lead right now, and he's awesome. Like he's he's like, you know, Michael, Michael Hall. Like you can take whatever your script is and just make it so much better than you ever could imagine, you know. I I and you know, same with Kira Sedgwick, same with um uh Mart Marishka, like the it being able to work with the actors and in any capacity, it's just thrilling to see what they can do, you know, because they they're so gifted in that other way that actors are. It's just it's it's awesome. You know, I love watching dailies, I love watching them work. I just I I have tremendous respect for and admiration for actors, you know, they're such a vulnerable job. And the the ones that can do it so well just have this, you know, gift from some other somewhere else. It's just thrilling to be a part of.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

I I yeah, I mean, yeah, when that when it's all going, when it's all going well, it's magic. I try to uh I think most writers every now and then get stuck in a situation where they are asked to act. I had to act against in a scene against a really big actor, and I was off-camera, I was just reading the off-camera dialogue, and it was so hard. Like you give the you, you know, we're giving notes and we're doing this, you gotta do this better, and then your act cameras are on you, and you and for me, I just I just wilted.

SPEAKER_03 25:47

But Mike, Mike, I think any actor should I think any writer should take an acting class, I'll say for sure.

SPEAKER_00 25:51

I agree, or just put some lights on yourself and just and have a fine.

SPEAKER_03 25:55

You will never talk to an actor the same way again, ever.

SPEAKER_00 25:59

Talking about the the present right now in Hollywood, uh, a little bit, there's been a lot of discussions circulating about sort of a feeling of hopelessness about where everything is going. And now, you know, you're lucky enough to continue working on a show. I got really lucky and I went from one show to another show, and everything seems to be working out. But most people that I know are not working, many people, most people I know are not are taking up pitches that aren't selling. What is your sort of like you've been through these cycles, you've been through multiple strikes, you've been through multiple contractions. What is your feeling towards the next four years of Hollywood?

SPEAKER_03 26:35

I we, you know, our vets asked us this last night. And I feel like all you can really do is tell your story. No one else, you walked your walk, no one else has your, you know, specific set of circumstances. And, you know, we're always, you know, we've got phones, we've got tablets, we're always gonna want to watch something. People are always gonna watch watch stories. So I guess, I guess, you know, what we what I feel is just drill down on on your writing and what you can control, and and that will be satisfying, you know, to create a script that it has your heart and soul in it, a piece of your story, it doesn't get better than that.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Can I this might be a bit inside baseball, but I'm we uh my wife's in charge of the television, uh, which is I don't know how common that is in in today's world, but she definitely is in charge of our television. And uh so um with the FBI's as it were, this sort of format where they do them all in one go. Um so I think it's it's FBI, FBI most wanted, and then FBI international.

SPEAKER_03 27:41

I think it's I think it's internationals in the middle, and we're the the last hour.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

Oh, yeah, so no, that is right. Yeah, we we were watching it uh last night, but anyway, yes, that's right. How does it work? Because I think they they do it in law and order now where it's uh normal SUV and then the the one with any criminal intent, yeah. Yeah, yeah um the in terms of like internal competition, because I know obviously you're all part of the same franchise and you do crossovers, but internally, um not so much about numbers, but more just when the shows are all next to each other. Is there a bit of sort of do you have a bit of like uh storyline jealousy? Do you have a bit of sort of, you know, do you sort of internally compete to, you know, have the best one on that given week? How does all that work?

SPEAKER_03 28:22

It's a it's a good question. I mean, I I think David could speak better to that than me. I mean, I I love the actors that are on FBI and FBI International. Like, I think they're fun to watch. Like, I would love, like, I love doing crossovers because we get to work with them. We have an actress on our show that started an FBI, and so she's been going back and forth. And so it's fun to have the storylines go back and forth. I mean, I wouldn't say, I mean, the FBI showrunner Ricky Eid is is great and fascinating and interesting. And I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that I don't imagine he and David, you know, rumble in the jungle too much. You know, I think we're all just it's it's enough to focus on our hour that we just do. And then I I don't know, I enjoy watching the other hours just to see, you know, how they're handling their version of a dirty bomb. You know, we have our dirty bombs. I mean, everyone does the plays the notes a little bit differently on the piano, so to speak, you know.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

Um, sorry, this is another inside baseball one. Yeah, so obviously you've probably guessed by now. Obviously, Noah's in the industry. I'm I've never even for some reason Noah's never invited me into a writer's room. So I've never been in one, so I don't know how this works. When there's a crossover episode, yes, see, you know, unless it's like the the sometimes like a season finale where you it's all the same thing, if it's just like a couple of them nipping into yours or vice versa. Yeah, does it work with the writers?

SPEAKER_03 29:41

Is it they're writing it and you write your bits, or like yeah, we each like they'll have a story that will start in FBI. Like we the one one that's coming to mind is we did sort of our take on Jeffrey Epstein, and it started in the FBI hour. Then they went, you know, international. They went to, I forgot where they went, it's somewhere international. And then he was on the run in New York. And that's our hour. Our show is about, you know, our show is a chase show where we catch the bad guys. And so, you know, there's a writer that's assigned to the crossover, and we all get together and we meet, and we all, you know, writers from the different show all put their heads together and then we run it, you know, past the different showrunners, and then, you know, make sure that we're all, you know, on this. We you want the ball, the hot potato to be hot for all three hours. You know, you don't want it to just be hot in one hour and then kind of trickling the rest. So the the trick is you know, amping up the stakes every hour with your situation.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

And and you do dialogue for your people because you can't trust other people to get their voices right.

SPEAKER_03 30:35

We don't know. I mean, we the writers of each show do their hour. So the FBI writer will do the FBI hour, our show, uh the FBI International writer will do their hour, and then our writer will do our FBI most wanted hour.

SPEAKER_01 30:48

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:49

It's fun. I love crossovers. I think they're f they're fabulous. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:52

So uh we've we've strayed from sort of into the realms of being a normal podcast asking normal writer questions. So I need to take us back to our our core. Um so you when you obviously you mentioned right at the front that you uh you found out your show was being cancelled in a in a in a wide there must be other stories of uh either shows being cancelled or pitches not working or things going wrong with something you've tried to do in a room. Give me another, give me another failure story.

SPEAKER_03 31:29

I I will say, like there was a period, you know, where I was doing a pilot or two a year. And, you know, that's let's say that's 10 years, that's 10, 12 pilots, and none of them have gone, you know, and it's like it's like online dating, you know, you just you just keep trying. And then you'll you know make the match, you know. That's the hope, you know. It's I mean, it's it's just it is just a slog, you know, like the pilot cycle and trying to get your own and and and working and even now it's even harder, but it's just it's just a slog.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

What what what happens emotionally when one of your pilots doesn't go for it? Like what to talk to us through that phone call and then that then that night?

SPEAKER_03 32:15

Yeah, I mean it's um it is, you know, you work on the on the pilots that you care so much about, you work so hard. They are your babies, you know, they are pieces of you that are in the story. And it and it's so hard not to take it personally, because if it's your a piece of your story, like your relationship with your brother, let's say, you know, and they it they're like, that doesn't work for us. We want a slasher film instead. You know, it's it's you know, it's hard not to hear it as a rejection of yourself, you know. It's really, it's really hard because you can't, you know, tell a writer to put your heart and soul into it and then not feel anything when it doesn't go forward, you know? Um yeah, I mean, it's just I mean, you know, I you know, this pilot that I've got right now, you know, we've just gotten rejected everywhere. And it's like, this is a great like I know it's a great pilot, but it's just it's just you know, it's a drag, you know. And I now I'm like, well, if this isn't gonna go, what's next? You know.

SPEAKER_00 33:09

But what's what sucks about Hollywood, and maybe it's slightly changing today, but it's traditionally been you could have an amazing pilot, and it's the wrong pilot for the wrong time.

SPEAKER_03 33:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:22

So hard to go back and say, now it's the right time for this. Totally true. That's so true. Squid Games type show or Ted Lasso when they're looking for the thing. I have the thing, but they rejected eight years ago under a different regime, and you're like, Yeah, yeah, different regime, different time, same story. This will do great. And it's it's really painful. I have a question though, about you know, I've said uh a number of times that I believe uh that the co-ep job, sometimes or the supervising job, producer job, sometimes being the number three on a show is maybe the best job in Hollywood, uh, in the writer's room, because you don't have the extreme pressure as the number one. The number two is a great job as well, but the strong number two is to run the room. So that's its own pressure. And the number three can be a little bit more of a caretaker, mentor. They have a lot of different roles. And I've seen you go all the way up to the top, you've been a showrunner, then you kind of like very tradition, very normal in Hollywood to take a staff job and be the number two or three, even if you've been a showrunner before. Talk about the position and and and you know, do you agree that it's one of the better jobs, or is there always the goal to get you know the top?

SPEAKER_03 34:27

Obviously, not on the show you're on now because there's yeah, I mean, I would say, I mean, but this show right now is a great example. I mean, I mean, it's so rare to work for a boss that's a great writer and a happy person. You know, he's he's and it's it's such a gift because you know, he's he came up through um, you know, character-based shows. So he always wants to infuse character into the into the show. But, you know, I feel like anything I can do to get his vision on its feet and what he wants, you know, to the other writers, like to the extent that we can do that, it's it's great. Like I feel like we're all in the boat, we're all pushing the rock up the hill together, you know. Um it's it's I mean, it it can be hard to be a number two if I feel like you know, you have to have a little bit of a mind meld, you know, and get in sync with each other. And those are the best situations when you're all working towards the same thing together. I mean, I've I've been in shows where those the people have had different um agendas and it's just it's just frustrating and it doesn't work so well. And those shows inevitably don't do well, you know. I mean, we the dick Dick Wolfcamp is great because you have your own show and then you're in the culture of a of a of a upper studio in a in essence, you know, which is Dick's Dick's empire, you know. Um and it it just works really well. Like the trains run on time, and every time there's I mean, I think you get um there's great joy in routine and security and doing the best that you can do, you know. You can really, you know, if you can really do your best in that circumstance. And that's the the best situation that you can hope for, you know. It's it's hard when you're working with people that are like I had a boss that was going through divorce once and didn't want to be home at all, and we had late hours and it was just a drag, and that was a miserable job, you know. It was just really hard to um, you know, be picking up the pencil at eight o'clock at night. You know, I really feel like if you're there past six or five, like something's really wrong, you know.

SPEAKER_00 36:23

Yeah, can we drill down a little bit more on that? We've talked, you know, we've we've we've had a lot of people come on and we've asked about sort of good room experiences, modeling good behavior. So have a good experience because we know there's a lot of bad rooms out there. Yeah, there they are. So many shows, you know. The divorced, you know, I've heard I've worked on shows where people don't want to go home. That's awful. What's another sort of example of like just a bad room where you just call your reps and like, I don't want to be here anymore?

SPEAKER_03 36:52

I mean, uh another boss had a new baby and he didn't want to go home to that either. So similar situation to divorce. Um, I I think sometimes you can work with a creator that um really can do it all, you know, and doesn't want your help. And that's I understand that from both points of view, because you know, from from their point of view, they they've got the show, they've got the voice, they've got it all, and they don't need your help at all. And then you're just kind of window dressing there. And then I've worked with people that don't have a clear idea of what the show is, and it could be because of network and studio notes have taken them off the path that they once had. Um, I've worked with shows with writers that had, you know, people put above people above above them. And that was a really hard situation because the the senior writer was the show runner and the it was the junior writer that kind of had the vision, and they they were just like two Lego blocks that didn't fit. And it was uh it was just it was very hard to know how to hit the note of the show because the show's note kept changing a lot, you know.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

Um we're unfortunately getting nearer the end, but I've got a couple more questions. So um I don't know if other people in this country do this, but Vanessa, my wife and I, for years, years, I don't know when it started. Whenever we watch a show, one of the shows in this empire, when it goes to the closing credits, for some reason we both say out loud, Dick Wolf at the end of the show. Uh I don't know why we uh we started doing it like years ago. We still we did it again last night. I don't know why we both say it, it's just a thing now.

SPEAKER_03 38:30

Um it's like the ching ching of your family, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:32

Yeah, yeah, no, exactly. And um, but you know, we've asked this question of people working for sort of when they worked on Star Trek and something, but this is it's not IP in that sense, but it's it's you know, it is part of the empire. When you're in the empire, as it were, do you sort of feel the particularly because when they're spinning off, you know, you assume they'll do well, they'll get all the help they need to do well, but equally there's pressure to make sure that they're up to the standards that created the empire. So, what's it like when you uh the first time you were in a room on one of the shows in the Wolf Empire? Like, what did it did it feel different to other shows that you've worked on?

SPEAKER_03 39:15

Uh I mean, the I was on the first season of SVU, and so it had, you know, there's that first season of what what are we doing? What's the show? How much of Olivia Benson's backstory are we gonna tell? How much are we gonna live into it? You know, what are our episodes gonna feel different? We don't have a legal portion. What are we gonna fill? How do we make an investigation, four or five acts? You know, because we were just we were, you know, we were on the second floor and law and order, no, we were, yeah, and law and order was on the first floor. We were in this little building and universal, you know, and it was just it was Dick's office was down the hall, and he had a big, you know, boat on his desk, you know, very cool. Um, and I guess what's different is um Dick doesn't really suffer fools. And so there's a lot, a lot of the baloney that can exist, you know, he can intervene and keep you on your track and give you the space you need to do to find the voice of the show. Um, and I think that his shows just run exceptionally well.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

Very good. And do you did does it feel compared to non-Dick Wolf shows? Because you've probably you know, you've probably done 30% of your credits in his shows. I'm not quite sure how the maths work out. Like, you know, is there a sort of extra extra pressure because you know it's part of a legacy, but also an upside in the sense that you know, you'll know you you're part of a show that will if you want it to, will probably run for 25 years and you know, your job for life if you, you know, if you keep your nose clean.

SPEAKER_03 40:39

Well, I think it has, I feel like like just in the way that you and your wife say Dick Wolf at the end of an episode, I feel like Wolf shows kind of have a a feel to them, you know, like they're often in New York, they're often, you know, they the locations are excellent, the DPs are amazing, you know, the camera works always. There's just a I feel like there's a patina and a voice to Wolf Wolf shows and speaking very generally, that is great. Like I feel like, you know, Chicago shows feel feel alike, but they feel very different than the FBI shows and the law and order universes. Those two seem to have more of a relationship. But I guess I guess it's you know, he he protects his writers, he protects his creators, and he, you know, it's like creating a s a space for you to do your job that sometimes, you know, when you're on a first year show with with a studio and network that are panicking because they're not sure how it's gonna all work out, and you know, everyone's got their hopes on it. It uh I it doesn't have that element to it, which is tremendously freeing, you know.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

I'm sure.

SPEAKER_03 41:40

Yeah. All right.

SPEAKER_01 41:41

Well, look, Winnie, unfortunately, we're near the end in the beginning. So we're gonna have to ask the final question which we ask every guest, which is if you could give a single piece of advice to somebody entering the industry, what would it be?

SPEAKER_03 41:56

Proofread your scripts. Like when I open a script and I'm reading and there's a typo on the first page, I close it and I go on to the next one.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

Brilliant.

SPEAKER_03 42:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:09

123 episodes, and I think that's the first time we've heard that. I love that. I think I I mentioned once before on this podcast when I'm hiring for a new job, if there's one mistake in somebody's C V uh resume, then I put it in the bin.

SPEAKER_03 42:23

Like if you don't know the difference between Y-O-U-R and Y O U apostrophe R E or I T apostrophe S and I T S, if you don't know those, I'm like, I mean, I broke up with a guy because he spelled Woody Allen W O D I E, and I was like, no. So like I mean, typos, I mean, they just matter, you know, they they matter a lot.

SPEAKER_01 42:42

Amazing. I love that. That's a that's a really I love that piece of advice. Um look, Wendy West, morgue and murder specialist. Um, thank you very much for coming on our show.

SPEAKER_03 42:52

Thank you guys. This was a total pleasure. Thank you so much. I love your podcast, it's really fun.

SPEAKER_01 42:56

Thank you, Wendy.

SPEAKER_03 42:58

Thank you, guys.

SPEAKER_01 43:04

Thank you for listening to this episode of Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss brought to you by Scriptation. Thank you as ever to James Launch for the music. And thank you to our loyal listeners. And if there's any showrunners out there who want to hear their fellow showrunners abused uh and ruffled around and put under the microscope so you can hear their stories of rejection failure in adversity, please send them our way. If you are interested in following us on social media, oh I've lost track.

SPEAKER_00 43:42

I am at an Ebsland on Twitter or X or whatever Elon Musk now calls it. And thanks to Elon Musk, I'm also at Noah Ebbs Land on Hive, Scoutable, Blue Sky, Reds, Mastodon, MySpace, French True, and I'm sure of that.