Take 146 - Director, Producer, Writer Nick Verso, Boys in the Trees, Invisible Boys

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for shore, dozens of unproduced scripts littering the floor.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_03 0:20

For every subject, there is means sometimes even years of painful failure. This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

That's the default thing we have to be able to persevere.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

Like everything in our business here and count as you take it.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

That doesn't matter overnight. I was being told by my manager that it's yours to lose. And I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking like, well, that's it for me. I blew my one big shot. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_03 1:04

Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry, brought to you by the Emmy Award-winning annotation software Scriptation. As ever, I am Dan Rutstein, your non-entertainment co-host.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

And I am your still in the entertainment business, co-host Noah Fun. Today I'm delighted to introduce TV writer, series creator, screenwriter, and TV and film director Nick Verso to the podcast. On top of creating the TV series Invisible Boys and Crazy Fun Park, he's written and directed the movies Boys in the Trees and Max A Cautionary Tale and others. He's also directed too many episodes of Episodic TV to list off here. And on top of all this, Nick also seems to moonlight as a producer, editor, and cinematographer. Welcome, Nick.

SPEAKER_03 1:56

Thanks for having me. So uh first thing, it's not a warning, but um we've had I think three Australians on here, and they've all been fantastic. Um fact the Australians and the Canadians have been some of our best guests. So I don't know what that says about Americans, but anyway, the bar is very high for Australians. So I just want you to know that before we start.

SPEAKER_04 2:19

Oh no, no pressure, great.

SPEAKER_03 2:21

Um you know how many episodes of TV you've directed? It'd be probably around 50, I'd say, maybe more. Yeah. Yeah. When people say that, you know, too many to count or whatever, I'm always interested what the actual number is. Um but 50 is a is a real number. Um it's it's a good start, you know.

SPEAKER_04 2:43

Like there are some people who have done like hundreds, so I feel like I've got to get going. We need to get more stuff in production.

SPEAKER_03 2:50

What are you if you were stopped in the street by somebody and says what do you do for a living? Um and you don't just say I work in the entertainment industry, which which bit of the industry do you do you see yourself as your sort of main area now?

SPEAKER_04 3:10

Yeah, it's interesting. I yeah, because when people ask that question, I really always want to avoid it because there tend to be follow-up questions. So but I um but I guess film and TV, I would say. I normally just put them together really quickly. Film and TV. And then um make it sound like one thing and try to get away from the conversation. But um, yeah, exactly. Yeah, this is it wouldn't be I'd be a terrible podcast guest if I did that here. So look, I think I mean TV for the last few years, but now I'm really wanting to go back to features. So I mean, this year has been a lot focusing on that, which has been great to be able to tell a story in two hours rather than trying to keep it up in the air forever.

SPEAKER_03 3:51

And is it the writing, the producing, all the directing, or is it all of them?

SPEAKER_04 3:57

Yeah, it's funny. So, like I originally saw myself uh purely as a director. Like that's that was what I set out to do that first and foremost. And then I just couldn't find scripts I wanted to direct when I was first starting out. Like this is years ago. So I started writing and I I studied screenwriting. And um and slowly got good at that. Um, and I hope. And then um producing's very recent. And that was more just about being able to have some. Um I I just wanted a seat at the table with what was happening to the concepts I came up with. You know, so it's not something I do often and not even everything I create, but it was just I was finding it was very easy for me not to be involved in those conversations, even though it was an idea I'd come up with and an idea that I really loved and felt passionate about and was very personal to me. And I just thought it made sense for me to stay involved.

SPEAKER_02 4:53

That's a wise choice, and I'm sure we'll dig into that a little bit uh more later. I was curious, because you you see yourself as a director, yet you're a legitimate writer, meaning you you create a TV series as a writer, uh when and yet you go and you've you know, you're an episodic director of television, which we can we we can get into the nuances of that because that's what it's kind of interesting about the roles of this uh, you know, and again, it might be different in Australia versus the United States, but probably not that different about TV directors coming into other people's shows and having to kind of subjugate themselves to the vision of the showrunner because that's a showrunner's medium, yet you are a showrunner who also directs other people's television shows. So I got a question about that. And and maybe that's you're doing more showrunning work right now at the second, but the when you're just putting on your director hat and you're clearly, you know, you modestly said, Oh, I started to screenwrite and I got sort of good at that, but obviously you're good enough to create shows. So do you read the scripts and in your head go, that's shit, but I gotta direct it anyways? Or are you just really good at sort of in the tone meeting, giving notes to the dire uh writer, going, maybe, or is there ever a temptation to like take a pass at something, but you know you especially in television, that's not how it all works. Very curious. You on the floor.

SPEAKER_04 6:09

Uh that's such a good question, and um and such a tricky one to answer diplomatically. Um but yeah, so look, the first the earlier shows I I directed the writing wasn't always that strong, you know, uh I think I can say. And so but I always did want it to be excellent. So there was sometimes I would come in very maybe a little too forcefully, you know, wanting with with notes, writing notes and and and never I I didn't want to rewrite, but just uh elevate, you know, any scene. Um luckily in recent years, I've the shows I've come on as a director for hire, I've just been the caliber of writing's just been so much stronger. Like I've just been working with really talented writers and and I've come aboard because I've really loved their vision and their show. So I don't actually want to mess with that. I want to support it and align with it rather than kind of overrule it. Um so so yeah, so now I try to do a lot more listening, especially up front, you know, and try to really make sure that I'm aligning with their vision for their show. Um and that's the thing. I think because I get my I've had a chance to make shows of my own now, and I I will in the future, um, it's allowed me to be more generous, weirdly, you know, because I've I've got my chance. So when I'm working on someone else's, it's like, well, this is their chance, this is their show. So I I will still give notes, you know, I'm still pretty comprehensive and I I'm always looking to elevate. I never want to settle for just good enough, you know. I want it to be excellent. And sometimes we get there and sometimes we don't. But um, so I will give notes, but I'll always flag, hey, if I'm overstepping, just say so. You know, I ultimately I want the writer to be the writer and and me to be the director in that situation. So um I actually need to maintain a bit of distance. If I'm too getting into the weeds too much in the writing process, then I've stopped being the director, and then I'm not actually as valuable to them as I should be.

SPEAKER_02 8:13

Interesting. And and here's another sort of maybe less complicated, but I'm equally interested in sort of the steps you took to get where you are. The there was an online discussion for about directing that I just sort of interjected in where somebody asked, how come more directors don't, you know, operate their own cameras? This was someone outside of the industry who probably thought that you know directors are primarily operating cameras and things. And and I just said my comment was like, it really depends on where the director came from and what they really focus on. That many directors who come up through acting focus on the acting. The directors who come up through writing, that's their strength is writing. Those who are editors first are always cutting it in their head, and a lot of directors come at it from where they came up through. But you said that you started as a, and that's the all of it. Obviously, a director is always trying to do everything at once as well, but you know, they're they're always gonna lean into their strengths, I'm finding. So you said you sort of see yourself as a director first, writer second. But I've also noticed you've done been an editor, a DP, you've done a lot of different things coming up. What was your path, second unit director? Like what was your path to director, and what is your strength that you lean on when you finally took because people obviously don't normally just start in the director's chair.

SPEAKER_04 9:24

Yeah, and that's it. And I guess if the first few years of your career are normally pretty chaotic, where it doesn't feel like a career, you know, it feels like just a bunch of things you've patched together to try to make some money. Um, so I guess when I was first starting out, and this would have been 2011, you know, 2011-2012 was I think when I was really first entering the industry. Um so I had multiple streams of income to sort of keep myself alive. So I was, on the one hand, working as an editor at a corporate video place, and and we were mainly doing recruitment videos for the military and the defense force. So um, so that's what I was focusing on. So I'd be getting this footage and trying to turn it into narrative somehow, which was great training in a way, going, what can you do with footage that you don't control? Um, and and and what do you need, what's missing, you know, in order to tell a story. So I would give notes going, hey, we need shots of this, and then I can turn it into something. Um, but I was also DJing at night. So like I would DJ Friday, Saturday nights, and I DJ'd for years. And that in a way, DJing and editing are incredibly similar. Like they're the same sort of job. It's all about rhythm, it's all about keeping people engaged, it's all about knowing when to peek and when to pull back and when to have some breathing space and when not to. Um, but that kept me, I guess, in the zeitgeist. It kind of kept me having to connect with pop culture and um what younger people were engaging with. Um so they were good jobs to have. But then, yeah, then I started doing uh putting up my hand for I I saw there was a gap in the industry at that time. This was the early days of YouTube and the early days of social media. Um, and so I could see a lot of productions needed um online content. So I became a wine man band for that essentially. And I put up my hand and I would operate the camera, I would edit it, and I would come up with concepts for their shows and go, I'll create your online content. That because they always had this money put aside in the budget, and they most producers just didn't want to think about it. They didn't want to handle it. So they were really grateful that I could come in and go, I'll take care of this for you. Um, and that was a really great training ground for me because it meant I almost got to work under every director in Australia. I got to sort of work, see how they operated, how they worked with cast, how they worked with crew. And I would be locking things away, going, okay, don't do that, or do that. That worked really well. What that director's doing is a really great way to get the crew going on the 12th hour of a shooting day. And um, and so that was really helpful. And then that allowed me to also develop relationships with producers. And there was one show in particular that I cannot name, but um, and that but that show had done really badly in its shoot. Like it was the first block was 40 days, and I think they finished the call sheet on three of those days. So at the end of that block, they were finding the episodes were drastically under um and all these scenes were missing, all this content was missing. And by that point, the crew had really turned on the director and they knew that they could not bring him back in. And the producers were like, Oh, well, they seem to like the EPK guy. Let's let him direct all these pickup scenes that we need. Because some of the episodes were 15 minutes short, you know, they were 15 minutes under what the network needed. So there was a lot to sort of do. And um luckily they knew that I by then I befriended all the casts, I'd befriended the crew, and and I they knew I worked frugally. So I um that became one of my first geeks.

SPEAKER_02 12:58

I just, you know, real quick, this is just a bit of color, and then I'm gonna hand off to Dan for a question. Uh, you are the first, I think, person to come on here and say that you're also a writer DJ. I and I think so that for 25 years, I've also been a DJ. And I and although we never talked, and also DJ'ed Friday, Saturdays, Sundays for years and years in clubs and raves and whatever, the uh the concept of learning how to tell a story through music is something we've actually never talked about on a podcast. And the importance of that in translating that into the shows that you're writing and the importance of the music that you're writing, I'm sure you and I someday we'll sit down to coffee and have an endless conversation about that and the importance of not losing people's attention on a dance floor is very similar to not losing people's attention on the page. But that wasn't really a question that was I just wanted to trickle back at because I was very surprised you said that, and I'm gonna let Dan tee it up with another question.

SPEAKER_03 13:52

There you go. Noah wants everyone to know he's a DJ. That's basically where that's all this was about. Um so you said something interesting. Um you said lots of interesting things, but there was one bit I want to pick at where you said I think at the beginning it wasn't a career, it was just sort of a bit of a chaos, and you were just trying to find different income streams. One question I always like to ask people um is at what point maybe you're not even there yet, uh what point did you realise that you have actually got a career in entertainment? Given it is such a weird place and you can it can end so quickly, and it does for lots of people, and they never get past whatever junior role they're in, and so on. So um when did you think that this is now an actual real job for you or real career for you?

SPEAKER_04 14:43

Yeah, I mean it's interesting, like I always had faith in it, like I always knew it was it was right where I wanted to be and meant to be. It was just sort of hard to I guess make a living out of it, you know. That was that was the trickiest thing. But I guess that sort of kicked in. I mean, it would have been around the time. So I did Boys in the Trees in 2016, and I guess that was when I first started being treated like a filmmaker, whether I felt like one or not was another matter, but I was being treated like one. And then, but I guess it was once I start it was sort of around 2017, 2018 where I started getting steady directing work where I knew where the next gig was coming from. And I think that gave me reassurance. Um, because I think any that's the thing about this industry is so the the jobs are short, you know, you're not on unless you're you're lucky enough to be on one of those long-running series. Yeah, you're kind of reinventing yourself every few months. So, but it was once I knew what was next and and I'd be on a job and I knew what the next one was. That's when it started to feel like a real profession and a sustainable career. Um, though the last year has been, I think, very strange for everyone because there's so little filming in Australia, at least I don't know what it's like over there in LA at the moment.

SPEAKER_03 16:00

I I'm sure Noah's gonna ask a question about that because the answer is it's not, I don't think it's great anywhere at the moment, apart from very, very narrow pockets. Um so uh in terms of sort of that thing about how you're how you're being treated and how you sort of makes you think you're part of it, like the year before that, as it were, or two years before that, did you I did you have a sort of maybe I'm gonna be a full-time GJ, maybe I'm gonna do something else? Did you ever did it ever worry you enough that you wouldn't make it, that you had a like a legitimate thought out plan B, or did you ignore that part of it because you were so sure you were gonna do this?

SPEAKER_04 16:42

Yeah, no, I I never knew I I knew DJing was a means to an end. Like I knew that I I didn't want to continue necessarily to be doing DJ for the rest of my life because I a lot of a lot of youthful energy got me through that, and I was just like, I I wasn't sure if I would have that youthful energy forever. Um so I I was very sh convinced that film and TV was where I was meant to be, but there was absolutely obstacles, and I guess the biggest one was yeah, it was almost two years to the date of Boys in the Trees coming out that someone did sit me down, the head of a funding body, actually. I think I can say this. Um I won't name names, but I think I've never spoken about this publicly, but I can say, and they sat me down and they told me why I wasn't going to make it in the industry. And they said, Oh Nick, some people just don't make it, and you might be one of those people. Um and I remember thinking, we'll see about that. Like in a way, it was really fuel. I I don't know, maybe she was doing great reverse psychology there and um was you know being my biggest ally by giving me the fire I needed to sort of prove her wrong. But yeah, it hurt and um it fueled me, that's for sure. Did she give a reason? No, not really. Um she had just decided um that uh yeah, she didn't think I had the stuff.

SPEAKER_02 18:14

We're not gonna ask that many questions about this, but I'm curious. Hey, why would anyone I mean obviously? She ended up working for me.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

Oh, come on, if you wouldn't know.

SPEAKER_03 18:25

I love that.

SPEAKER_04 18:27

Not by choice, I didn't hire it, but um, but someone did, and I was like, oh, here we go. You're getting a paycheck off me now.

SPEAKER_02 18:34

You can come into your office one day, and you know what? Some people just aren't cut out for this kind of work, and here's another job for you. Uh well, I'm glad that fire was lit under your butt. A question, a question for you on a practical level, um, about uh filming in Australia versus filming in in the United States. And obviously you have had some traction globally because we're repped at the same company, and our comp my comp the company I'm repped at is an LA-based company. So the um how did you start to get attention sort of internationally? And just a weird small question is in connected question. In in it used to be in if you wanted to work in Hollywood, you had to live in Hollywood. Now I'm obviously many people know I'm in Hawaii. A lot of writers have spread out a little bit, but the before is boom, you really had to be there. And I spent 15 years in Hollywood. Is Melbourne the Hollywood of Australia? Is it Sydney in Melbourne? Is it just all over the place and you can live where you want? And how do you get how did you get international attraction to that Echo League knocked on your door and you know, obviously wanted to pick you up as a client?

SPEAKER_04 19:39

Yeah, so um in Australia, I don't think there is just one base, you know. I mean, well, I mean, arguably, you know, America's the same where, you know, there's that whole school of New York filmmakers as well, where they're doing things. And I guess America's probably similar in that I guess a lot of the decisions are made out of either LA or New York, but barely anyone films there. Like everyone's either filming in Canada or in Georgia or wherever there's a tax incentive. And Australia's pretty similar in that regard. Like most producers are based in Melbourne or Sydney. But I know personally, like I'm even though I live in Melbourne, I'm very rarely shooting here. Like uh Invisible Boys was Perth, In Our Blood was Brisbane. Um, and those cities, you know, the tax incentives and the funding support you get there are really handsome. So they're they're really great to film in. Um, so yeah, so it is kind of spread all over. And then I guess in terms of international traction, Boys in the Trees was a massive one because I think that was such a clear calling card for what I do. But for me, it also had started a little earlier. I did a short film called The Last Time I Saw Richard, which was a a thriller, psychological thriller, and it starred Toby Wallace and Cody Fern in in both of their one, some of their earliest roles, and that had gone viral on YouTube, and that had helped a lot because it was a strong genre piece with a young cast, and it showed I could handle those things, which are elements that Hollywood executives tend to like. So, you know, and and and Boys in the Tree spoke to that as well. So I guess I was working with elements that were employable. Um, so that kind of and that's where so Echolake had met me. I met them at Toronto Film Festival and started working with them there. And I but I'd already had an agent due to my short film. So that all sort of started out of that. And yeah, and I mean, pre-COVID, I was absolutely coming, going backwards and forwards between Australia and LA a lot, and the in-person meeting was vital. And then COVID shifted things, of course. You know, I was actually in LA when COVID hit, and I decided to head back to Australia before things got too rocky, which was good. And then things really took off for me in Australia, so I got very focused on staying home, and only now I'm re engaging with America. And it is interesting because people Saying, oh, you can just do it all via Zoom, but I have found nothing quite beats the in-person meeting. Like it is worth doing just two or three weeks, if nothing else, in LA every now and again. And I found the meetings are quite different. Like I found on Zoom you could do four or five meetings in a day quite easily, but there was no memories attached to them. They all really blurred into one for me because you're I'm sitting in the same chair. You're always looking at a pretty similar background behind someone. Whereas when it's an in-person meeting, you actually, it's all the things around it that help you remember them. Like you you remember sort of trying to find a park at whatever studio and getting lost on the lot, and or you remember, you know, that coffee shop or what you ordered, and and those little memory pegs, I think, help the meeting become strangely more memorable and things feel a bit more casual and the eye contact is a bit more real. And so I I always prefer an in-person meeting if possible. But I know and I I'm finding even execs are going back that way. I think they have had enough of their homes. I think they want to get out of their houses and actually want to be back in the world again, too. I think it was lovely for a few years, but I think, yeah, I think the in-person's coming back. I'm pushing for it. Have you heard of it? Though no one wants to drive to the west side of Hollywood. No one wants to take a meeting in Santa Monica at 4 p.m. on a Friday, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_02 23:28

You've spent enough time in LA that you know the cardinal rule. No meetings in Santa Monica after 4 p.m. Uh okay, so we built you up. We we we you you've had uh you've had movies uh play festivals and TV shows and you've international reps. And obviously, though, we gotta ask some questions about failure, rejection, and adversity. So was there you know, also you I've noticed some of this I've watched some of your things is like your subject matter can be controversial. Has there ever been you know time in your career where you either got not a bad review or just a comment that that set that that that set you spinning, or besides this woman who told you shouldn't be in the industry, was there ever a time where it was just like I'm not sure I want to do this anymore, I'm not on the right track, I'm gonna go pick up my records again and you know, get you know, start to DJ.

SPEAKER_04 24:14

Yeah, look, I think I'm pretty um contrarian. So I think often when people are trying to tear me down, it only fuels me to build myself back up again. Um, but yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, I still get bad reviews. I mean, luckily most I I look, I try not to engage too much with the reviews, to be honest, but I, you know, sometimes you can't help it. Um luckily, the people who have tended to write bad reviews about me, I really just don't agree with them. And and I don't agree with them beyond my work. Like I've read their other reviews of other people's work, and I don't agree with those. So, so do you know what I mean? So when I then read a bad review that they've written about my work, I'm like, well, yeah, you're a dick. You know, so I um so I it it actually doesn't really hurt that much. And and in a way, I've had to train myself. Uh I've got it full because one day one of them will write a really good review about me, and then I'll be like, Oh, do I like this one? You know, but I you know, because that will almost be worse if they wrote a good review, because I I've made so much of my identity about disagreeing with them. But um yeah, so in terms of reviews and comments, and then in terms of the industry, look, I mean, I've been pretty lucky in my local industry particularly, that I've kind of stuck to my lane a bit. Like I haven't tried to do it all. I haven't said, oh, I can do everything. I I've just sort of really focused on particular types of stories and themes and characters that, to be honest, not that many people in Australia were doing. So I think as a result, I got quite a lot of support from producers and from people in the Australian industry because they were kind of grateful that I was doing that and they understood that that was my point of difference. And so I felt quite nurtured strangely by most people, except for that person who tried to get me to quit when I was starting out. So I was lucky in that regard. And I think in a way, so sticking to my lane ultimately became a bit of a superpower. And I'm I'm definitely trying to branch out of it now because you can you can get very much pigeonholed. So it's it can be a blessing and a curse. But um, but I've been pretty lucky in that way that my personality is such that it keeps me a little shielded from some of the worst things. But we absolutely all have bad days, especially like especially when you're in development for a really long time, you get feel really isolated, you know, and that can really um do your head in after a while. Whereas for me, nothing beats being on set because you're just surrounded by people and their energy, and that's so enlivening.

SPEAKER_03 26:49

So I want to ask more questions about this lady, but I don't think we're gonna get very far. So I won't. Um I feel like I haven't asked this question for about 50 episodes, but you strike me as somebody who might have an interesting answer to this one, um, which is how do you deal with um like literally how do you deal with success and failure in the moment, as in when a project gets green lit, you know, do you go out and eat, drink, buy yourself presence? And then the flip side of that is when you get the call saying that some projects died, how do you get yourself onto the next one or through that?

SPEAKER_04 27:29

Yeah, no, that that's a really good question. And it was something I was thinking about recently, because it in a way, like some of my biggest successes has started to happen in the last uh four or five years. And a lot of it was happening during COVID. And that was the tricky thing about COVID success was you couldn't celebrate it. You know, we were sort of housebound, and so it was funny. Like I have these bottles of champagne in my cupboard unopened that I kept going, oh yeah, that's for when I get this thing, you know, uh to celebrate this. And I realized I wasn't celebrating the successes. You know, I sort of had this epiphany going, Oh, yes, like I I would get the success, and then I go, okay, good, and then move on and then go on to my emails. I wouldn't even give myself like five minutes to sort of run around the room and be excited. I'd just be like, great, okay, now get to work, you know. And so I I think it I know for myself I I want to take more time to sort of celebrate a success and go, actually, you know, this is a good, you can celebrate tonight and take a night off. Um so yeah, I think it is easy to sort of steamroll through it. But I think the reason I do that with my successes is also that's what I was doing with my failures. So I think I was almost ironing them out so that there wouldn't be pigs and troughs in my emotional inner life, I guess. You know, so when there was a failure, I would try to just focus on the next thing and that would sort of guard me and see me through, which is I think good in failure. But I think sometimes you've got to sit with failure too and actually go, okay, this didn't work out. Why didn't it work out? Why am I feeling this way? What could I have done differently? And um, yeah, so I think I I just sort of applied the same thing to both my successes and failures. But yeah, I think now I would probably want to sit in both a bit more and um yeah, just sort of be in the state of them. But and I think the other thing that also helped is when I was first starting out, I would really have one project at a time, you know. And and I guess well, that's the other thing I can talk about in terms of failure. Like my biggest failure was one of my first things. Like um in 2011, I was trying to get up a feature film and it was a teen rom-com musical. It was like a pitch perfect style film, you know, which is quite different to what I make now, but it was what I really wanted to make. And it got really close and then it fell over. The financing fell over. And there was quite a an infamous meeting that I had where I took the package into a funding body and it got rejected, and they weren't the nicest people about it. And pretty much everyone in that meeting has since apologized to me at some time for that meeting. And I can't name the talent, but let's just say that anytime I tell people what was in that package, people start laughing because the talent I had is some of the biggest names in Hollywood available right now. But in 2011, they weren't. They were up and comers, they were 20-year-olds that no one had heard of. And I was going, well, they're the next, they're the future, their future success. Let's let's get in on the ground floor. But they didn't see it that way, um, the investors. And so um, and that wounded me. When that fell over, it was like my life had gone to hell. Like that really, like I could barely speak or move for a week. So I I really got hit hard there. And I never wanted to feel that way ever again. And so, and and out of that pain, that's what why I wrote Boys in the Trees and started working on things like that. And and I haven't been back to that state ever since, luckily. But I think part of the way I've gotten around that is having a slate. So I actually have numerous ideas so that if one falls over, then I don't feel it as acutely because there are other things to put my energy and attention to, and that helps me walk away from things too, if they if they're turning bad, if they're not working.

SPEAKER_03 31:19

Um that's a good answer. Um in terms of the success stuff, obviously you know, I know for for movies there's big premiers, but for TV now, unless there's a pandemic, you know, they like to do a big screening and their own version of the red carpet. Do you like that stuff that goes around? Like obviously, you're clearly very good at this stuff. You know, do you like the the press days and the podcasts and the weird social media things that you have to do nowadays and and the interviews on the red carpet and all that stuff, or do you just like to do the work?

SPEAKER_04 31:56

Um, I actually do like it, you know, but then I've never had to do a really massive long-term one. Like anytime I've done it, it's been for, you know, a couple of days, or or it's it's been five days spread over a couple of weeks or something, or you know, so it hasn't been too much energy, it hasn't been too much effort, you know. Whereas you do hear of some things where they have to go from country to country to country and and and ask answering the same questions over and over again. And I can imagine for actors doing those sorts of junkets and directors doing those those sorts of interviews, that would get really draining. But luckily, I haven't had to experience that. I've just experienced the nice version of it, which is quite contained. Um, because yeah, I mean, it's pretty damn nice being in Venice at a premiere, you know, and being being taken on a boat to your premiere and having standing in a spotlight for 10 minutes while people applaud you. Like I think for anyone to say that's not a nice feeling, I'm like, oh well, get out of the industry, you know, like it's it's a you know, I mean, it's not the reason we do it, but it's a nice feeling, especially when you've worked really hard and so much of it is in isolation. Um But to be honest, yeah, I I think I like it to a point, but ultimately the biggest reward for me is doing the work. Like there's like if I had to choose between one month of publicity versus one month of being on a set, I would no question want to be on the set for that month, you know. Like, no question. That would be always preferable to me. Because that is the magic. And and even development and editing, you know, like I love those stages too. Financing, that's the one bit I probably don't love, you know. But even now, like I've this week I've been doing some financing meetings and they're actually fun. Like I was actually enjoying the people I was meeting for once. So um, so yeah, so I think doing the work, you've got to love doing the work and not just talking about doing the work. Because I think that's where things get go bad. If you if you prefer to talk about it more than actually doing it, I think that's where you get a little lost, is what I've observed.

SPEAKER_02 34:03

Yeah, very great comment too. I think people who talk about the screenplay they're writing and then don't finish that or the movie they're making and don't finish it. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 34:12

Yeah, that's why when people ask me what I'm writing about, I try not to say too much because I worry that if I talk about it too much, then I won't actually be doing it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

Has there ever been a moment? I I think I, you know, there's been a couple moments in my career where you kind of pinch yourself that you're actually doing this job where you're either surrounded by people that are you've you know you've admired from afar for a long time, or you're shooting something at three in the morning that came out of your brain, and then suddenly there's 200 people all around you making this thing happen. Like, what is your the moment? Is there been a like a moment that you can remember that you just sort of in the moment realized, holy shit, I did this, whether it's like something you've made or just like a moment at like a film festival. Like you this is pretty fucking cool.

SPEAKER_04 35:00

Yeah, to be honest, it was almost every minute of shooting boys in the trees, you know. Like that was especially because that was such a a weird shoot in terms of we tended to start at 5 p.m. each day, like we'd be waiting for the sun to set, and then we could start because it was pretty much all night shoots, and we were the imagery was sort of strange as well, like we're doing all this strange Halloween imagery. So we're up all night, and and it was really warm when we were filming. We were really lucky that we had this, so we were had these beautiful warm balmy nights shooting these strange scenes, and then when we could hear the morning birds and the light on the horizon, we'd have to rap, that would be it. And so it was quite a did something strange to your brain, like after a month of that, you were in we were all in quite a weird state. And so I remember being on set sometimes, just looking around at the crew busily working and the lights going up and the smoke machines being pumped out, and yeah, being incredibly grateful to be standing there and being able to see what had been in my head, especially because it was a story that had come out of this painful experience, um, and and seeing it turn into something beautiful that all these people were contributing to. That was definitely that moment. And then I do remember there was a moment with Toby Wallace, who's the lead of the film, where we were on a boat um leaving the screening in Venice, and um yeah, and the sun was setting and we were both just sort of side by side, and and yeah, it was like, okay, this is a real pinch me moment that we're both here. Um, and so that was wonderful. And it's wonderful when you can you've got great people to share it with. I mean, that's that's where it's really lovely when you've got great collaborators. Because I think if you just had that on your own, it would be it could be quite lonely or isolating, but it's the who you share it with that's particularly wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 36:53

We're you know, sadly we're route, we're heading towards the the tail end of this podcast, and what happens often, you know, for people who especially have listened to the podcast, will get to the end and they're like, oh crap, I had the story I wanted to tell, or there was a thing that I never even got to. So I need to try to remind myself, is there an anecdote about rejecting failure and adversity in particular, or otherwise, that you would love to share about your career? And if not, a more pointed question would be like, what is just one failure story that you think is worth talking about on the podcast?

SPEAKER_04 37:29

I think the thing when it comes to this sort of the failure and and the drama around things going wrong, when you're in it, it feels life or death. Like it feels like this is the biggest thing that's ever occurred to me. Um, I'll never get over this. Um, all those sorts of thoughts, you know, like it just feels so overwhelming. And so everyone on the planet will know about this. You know, it really feels so awe-consuming. And it's funny how it's really only affecting a couple of people normally, you know. Normally, so many people uh, you know, only a few people are involved, and the rest of the world just does not care or does not know, or it means nothing to them. Or, you know, it might be some gossip that they have at one point, but they'll forget it by Friday. Um, and that's what I have to come back to and remind myself if something's not going so well, or if you're having an issue that we are just making TV, you know, we aren't saving lives, we're not and it isn't life or death, even though it can feel that way. And how quickly things move. Like I look back to things from say two or three years ago, like there was there have been productions I've worked on that haven't gone so well. And it's funny how for the first like month or so afterwards, it's all you can think about. And then two years later, you're laughing about it. Like it's actually just funny. You can joke about it with the people involved, and and it's so nothing. Like so, and especially with often with the failures, they just I think we worry that this the stench of failure will hang on us forever. But I find that unless it's a really massive failure where you've lost someone's significant money or you've perfor you've acted significantly badly, it goes away pretty quick, you know. And the the best thing to do is to just outcreate it, you know, it's just to go on to something else and make sure that that isn't the last thing on your CV, make sure there's something else there and that fixes that. So I think my thing is the reminder that this too shall pass and um and not to get caught up in any of it because if you're on on your high, that won't last, and if you're on your low, that won't last. So it's just I guess having a bit of a zen attitude and changing the track to bring it back to DJing. Put on another if you've if you've just cleared the dance floor, put on another song.

SPEAKER_03 39:53

That is um an excellent answer. And uh I mean we're about to ask the final question, which is an advice question, and I feel like you might have just given the piece of advice going to be most useful to a lot of our listeners, but I'm gonna have to still ask you the question again because that's how it works. So you have to come up with a second piece of advice, although I think that was the one. Um so we are um if you were thinking of if you were to give a single piece of advice to somebody wanting to enter the industry, what would the single piece of advice be apart from you know quickly getting over your failures? Because you've nailed you've already said that, so you have to have a second one.

SPEAKER_04 40:28

I think it's find the thing that uh uh is unique to you and hone in on it and don't apologize for it, but make it your superpower. That would be my advice. And and it's often that thing that someone says to you, either as a kid or as a teenager, oh you're weird because of this, you know, like so if someone says that to you, like listen to that. That's probably the thing you should be making films or TV about, like that's probably the thing that you do better than anyone, and um lean into it, you know, and then and focus on stories you like telling, you know, because then then there'll always be this natural energy around what you do of joy that I think is very infectious and addictive and and alluring. So that would be my advice.

SPEAKER_03 41:20

Excellent. Look, uh Nick Verso, despite what some people have said about you in the past, um your career, um, you've obviously done exceptionally well. Uh, and we're uh delighted to uh to have you on the show. So thank you very much for your for your candor and your honesty and your insight today.

SPEAKER_04 41:39

Oh thank you. Thanks so much. Great to meet you both. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 41:50

Thank you so much for listening, and thank you, Game Flash, for the music and our wives for putting up with our comments today. As always, each episode is brought to you by Scriptation, my favorite screenwriting annotation software. If you want to support the show, please download a copy at www.scriptation.com backslash.

SPEAKER_03 42:11

Or perhaps even better, www.scriptation.com backslash Dan. Dan is spelled n.

SPEAKER_02 42:20

If you want to find me on social media, I'm at Twitter at n Epsilon and more recently on threads at no epsilon.

SPEAKER_03 42:30

Don't worry about me on social media, because all you people seem to care about is not really.