Take 68 - Showrunner Beth Schwartz, Arrow, Sweet Tooth

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for sure, dozens of unproduced scripts littering the floor.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_04 0:20

For every success, there is months, sometimes even years, of painful failure.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default. That's the normal thing we have to be able to perservate. Like everything in our business, your hands account. That box is taking it. That does not go back.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

I was being told by my manager it's yours to lose. And I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking like, well, that's it for me. I blew my one big shot. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_04 0:59

Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. As ever, I am your British non-entertainment co-host, Dan Rutstein.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

And I am your industry co-host, Noah Ebslin. Today I'm delighted to introduce TV writer and showrunner Beth Schwartz. Beth started out on such shows as What About Brian, Brothers and Sisters, and Heart of Dixie before working on DC's Legends of Tomorrow and Arrow, eventually rising to showrunner on Arrow in the last two seasons, as well as the TV show Sweet Tooth. She is currently working on an upcoming HBO Max show. Welcome, Beth.

SPEAKER_03 1:39

Thank you. I want to say I'm happy to be here, but I'm not sure until we see what happens.

SPEAKER_04 1:46

So I'm going to lift the curtain a little bit on how all this works. So we always warn our guests before we start recording to make sure they know that this is the Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss podcast and not just your usual tell us about how amazing you are podcasts and interviews that most of successful people would spend their time doing. And Beth possibly naively said, Oh, I've got loads of failures to talk about. So I'm going to start with that. Why have you got so many failures? And tell us about some of them.

SPEAKER_03 2:19

Well, I had quite a struggle getting staffed. That I feel like that was probably my biggest to this day, feels like my biggest failures of um, I don't think I actually ever had a successful staffing season when now that I think about it. I was an assistant um for probably a decade, I think, and I just could not get to that next level.

SPEAKER_04 2:49

So tell us uh that's too much material for us not to want to dig deep into. So I guess the two parts is what do you think that was? Um and how how bad did it get? And how close to giving it all up did you get?

SPEAKER_03 3:09

Oh my god. I almost all my friends, my family, people I've worked with know that I used to always kind of I don't know if threatened is not the right word because no one cared, but I would always just say, you know, I'm moving back and from Michigan. I'd be like, I'm moving back on Michigan. I can't, you know, this is over. But um I don't know as to answer why it is. I think now that I'm on the other side of um hiring people, like I think that a lot of it is sadly, I don't know if this is good for people here or not, is luck in a way. Um, because if you're in that showrunner meeting, you've already succeeded. Like that means someone likes your material uh or likes your credits or have heard good things about you. And so if you're in those meetings, that is a success. Why you're not, you know, chosen could be a million different reasons. There's not enough money in the budget. Um, they have want someone similar to your skills that they've worked with before. Uh, you know, I mean, it could be that they just didn't like you. That's also true. Um, I'd like to think that wasn't the reason, but that's definitely true. Um, and also someone that you buy, I remember there was one, there was one show that I met on it, and I really wanted the job because I wanted literally anyone who would staff me. And I was so upset I didn't get the job. And I I talked to my brother, who's also a writer, and he said, you know, it's good that you didn't get that job because obviously you didn't get that person, you know, you probably wouldn't have gone along with that show runner. Basically, like that wasn't your people. So if you were on the show, that would have come out, you know, like it wouldn't, you wouldn't have vibed with them. Um, and I think that's actually really true. Because I think when you're an assistant like I was, all I wanted to do was be on staff, but I don't think I thought of what happens when you are on the staff and you have to succeed then too. You can't just, you know, a lot of people get on staff and then they fail as well. But I don't know if I answered your question. I started rambling.

SPEAKER_02 5:22

That's a great great question. I I think I saw in your Twitter profile something, and I might be getting the phrasing some just from memory, like the godmother of assistance everywhere.

SPEAKER_03 5:30

And I think I have coined myself that.

SPEAKER_02 5:34

I this is this is leading into this question because I found myself in a position where I've been talking to a lot of assistants and I mentor some people as well. And there is that, and I was an assistant as well, desperately trying to, for a long time, trying to make that that that switch from hey, I'm a writer, guys. I, you know, this is what you know, and you just keep on being assistant for a very long time. What was your strategy to get on? Can you talk a little bit about your strategy to break away from being an assistant from 10 years? I'm sure you had many strategies that weren't working, but you kept at it after it was 10 years. And then how did you get your first staff job? And did that one, did that job go the way you wanted it to go, or was there more learning for you to do?

SPEAKER_03 6:13

Um, my strategy, you know, I don't know if I had a strategy of I did actually. Now I think about I had a strategy of getting, I had two resumes. I had an assistant resume and then a writer's resume. Because before I got staffed, which is I heard is unusual, I had nine produced credits of television as an assistant. So when I would go, you know, I needed to get an assistant job. One for money, I had to support myself. Um, and two, if I wasn't getting staffed, like I I knew I needed to be in the room, you know, I needed to be in the room with other writers where there's opportunity. But what started happening was I was too overqualified to be an assistant at some point when everyone would see how many credits of TV I had, um, and they would be nervous, I would be bitter, which was very true. I was very bitter. They weren't wrong. Um, however, I still needed a job and I still did a good job, and I tried to cover my bitterness as as much as I could. Um, so my strategy in terms of like in I had to play two parts, you know, I had to still get those writers' assistant jobs, and I also for the staffing opportunities that came up, I kind of took out a lot of I left kind of holes in my resume, which I don't know if I was outsmarting people or not, or if they were just like, that's weird, there's like a big chunk that's missing because I didn't want to be seen as, you know, that that assistant that like there was something wrong with me. Why couldn't why couldn't she get staffed? She's been assistant too long, you know, that kind of um that kind of uh area that you get put in as um, you know, as as a long-term assistant when you're having when you're struggling getting staffed. And I think that that now, I mean, I I'm not sure, but from my experience, not like I don't judge people who've been assistant that long because it happened to me. Um, and I feel like it happens to a lot of people, but it um there's this idea that like if you don't get staffed right away, that like you're you're lesser than or you're not as good as other people, or you don't deserve it, or you know, so I think there is that stigma that definitely exists.

SPEAKER_02 8:37

Do you do you think it's less common now for people to uh staff from their assistant ranks? Because I know it's you know, I I years ago, one of my writer friends who had been assistant for years and then was a high-level writer said, the person, you know, the people who hire you and are you're working for as an assistant often see you as an assistant. They don't see you as they stop seeing you as a writer. And it becomes very hard to make that transition until you go somewhere else and just present yourself as a writer, no longer as an assistant. Now that can be a little bit, you know, daunting to hear for people who've been assistants for five years waiting for that next break. And it doesn't happen on every show. Lots of shows do promote from from within. Did that sort of change your mindset about promoting from within your whole process, like made you more sensitive to what assistants do?

SPEAKER_03 9:21

I'm oh that yeah, a hundred percent. I, you know, I always tell assistants because there are there are there definitely are showrunners or you know, who are kind of like, I don't mix, you're my assistant, you know, this is that's what your job is. And then where I learned was from Greg Berlante. You may have heard of him. He's uh he's he's he will not be on this podcast. Um, but he, you know, he's my mentor and he's obviously one of the best mentors to have. And I saw him promote from within and um how valuable that is, and also the keeping relationships with your assistant. You know, he's always mentored me even when I wasn't on a show. I could email him. Also, Dan Fulgeman, I worked for another amazing lucky person that I got as um my mentor, and all those people taught me kind of, you know, this is a long, this is a long career, hopefully, is a long journey. Um, and a lot of people's assistants end up becoming, you know, very successful. And that's not why you should be nice to them. But um, you know, those relationships are important. You have uh, you know, for me and any of my assistants or former assistants, those are people that I like to mentor as well because they're helping make your life, you know, some, you know, less chaotic and um and they want to be writer. So I want to help them grow. And then when my when my assistant, my first assistant got her first staff job, it was like, you know, it was as if my child like did, I was so proud, you know, my child graduation or something. Uh I'm trying, I have a almost three-year-old. So I'm like, what it like when he first walked or something like that. Um, but uh it's so important to find those people in this career because it is such a hard place to be. And it is in this podcast, as you know, there's so much failure. And so you need you need those people in in your life, and I I think in order to succeed. Now, obviously, having Greg Brlante, that is um really valuable to have in your career. So if you can do that, I suggest it.

SPEAKER_04 11:42

Obviously, I've never been in a writer's room, but we've heard lots of stories about uh behavior by bosses that wasn't wonderful. When you were a writer's assistant, were people uh in any version of what being mean is mean to you and your colleagues? And what did you take from that, particularly now you're in the position of power?

SPEAKER_03 12:04

The interesting thing is when I was an assistant, I saw people being mean to the writers. I was never treated, I unless I blacked it out, which is definitely very possible. Um, but I don't remember showrunners or you know, people who are higher up than me being mean to me, but I saw them treat other writers disrespectful, like lower level writers or or even you know, each other in a way that that was toxic for sure. Um, so I'm I I was never really treated that way as an assistant. I feel like a lot of time, like the the smart showrunners um, you know, get all their kind of information from assistants because we're kind of like the ears and the eyes of what goes on, and because people were a little bit invisible in in kind of a sad way, but then also an advantageous way because people forget you're there. So you hear a lot, um, or you're on the phone calls and people forget that you're there. So um, you know, I feel like I was always I was always treated really nice as an as on an assistant level. And I would just treat people, I mean, I like to treat everyone nice because that's just how I was brought up.

SPEAKER_04 13:29

That's good upbringing. So uh in a departure from how we normally do this, where I I don't care about your successes, I want to hear about your failures. I'm actually gonna do something we've never done on this podcast before and ask you about success. Um what I've been really interested in is particularly what you said about at the beginning about how long it took you to uh get out of being an assistant. Can you talk about uh the period of your career which was the most enjoyable and you were having success and there was no rejection, failure, and adversity anywhere near any of it. But it's obviously always a but. And how much does what had happened to get you there sort of change your mindset about how much you sort of enjoyed that moment or what you thought about that moment?

SPEAKER_03 14:17

I I think about that a lot when I got when I first became showrunner, because I felt behind like I felt behind, very behind, um, which I think a lot of people in this career do. Like you're always comparing um, you know, when what age did I get staffed? When did I get, you know, like how long did it take you? How long did it take then? And I felt like I was behind the ball. Um, because I was an assistant, I was a rare assistant for five different shows before I got saffed. Um and I ended up getting I was working for, I'll tell you the story of how I got sapped and then I'll I'll try to answer your question. Um I was working for Greg as a rare assistant for political animals, and he was doing arrow. And he uh was like, I love you for you to be on Arrow, I'd love for you to be staffed on Arrow. And I was like, oh my god, this is like this is it. I've been waiting like so long for this. And then, you know, he introduced me to the showrunners, but the showrunner I had never worked with them before. And now at the time I didn't really understand, but I understand their point of view now. They had never worked for me and they had their own people, and so they were like, No, no, no, we don't, you know, she we're not gonna staff her. And at the time I was like, if I cannot get staffed on a show, um, you know, where I have one of the creators, you know, pushing me, like, how is this ever gonna happen? So I ended up becoming the writer's assistant on season one, which I was very upset about, like just completely felt like a failure, you know, like I didn't get staffed again. And then, you know, through lots of therapy from Craig, um, he was he was very generous and said, you know, you're gonna be writing assistant, but you're gonna get an episode in the first 13 because we didn't know if we were gonna get a back nine. And then that episode, I got my first freelance, and that the one episode actually turned into five that season because I had learned so much from being a writer's assistant and all my different shows, that somehow I was ahead of people and I didn't realize it until I was given the opportunity because we had a smaller room, so everyone, so these showrunners who I hadn't worked with and other writers on staff actually saw my saw my worth. And so that to me was kind of like once I was being treated like a writer, and I did obviously get that promotion the next year, it was like an amazing feeling. However, I still felt behind when I was a staff writer. I it didn't start feeling like I was getting, I still didn't have that feeling until I was probably, I would say, like a co-EP. Or maybe less. That's not true. Probably um my second year when I was a I executive story editor, that's when I started feeling like, okay, I'm finally starting to catch up because we still have those insecurities that like that, you know, you can't erase a decade of being an assistant and feeling like people aren't appreciating you or or feeling lesser than like you're not invited to the club. Like that doesn't erase overnight. Um, and then when I really got to showrun the show that I started as a writer's assistant on, that was when I was like, this feels this is amazing. Like then that's when I knew something kind of unusual happened. I think that there are probably other people who have a similar story, but I think it's very unusual for that to happen now just because there aren't shows that go on that long, as long as I wrote it. So did that answer your question? I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_04 18:20

Well, it does, and it's interesting. Obviously, I don't work in your world. Um, but I remember when I was a journalist for 10 years, and then I left and started a new career, and I joined the government, uh the diplomatic service, and I was on their sort of graduate fast train program. And I remember turning up on my first day, and I I had a beard and I was 30, and they were all in their 20s, and I was comparing myself and thinking I'm the same grade as these people, even though I'm 10 years older. But then when we started work, I was way ahead of them because I was a grown-up. Um, and they weren't yet, and I had some work experience, and I quickly, you know, I got promoted quicker than they did later. So it's interesting somehow with these things where you don't know what you've learned, uh and actually you're better than you think you are. So I guess given that given that, and now you're in charge, do you look at people differently and think there's somebody in this room who's probably better than they realize they are, and I want to be the one to bring that out of them because somebody did that for you.

SPEAKER_03 19:26

Yeah, I think I don't know if I look at people differently, um, but I, you know, everyone has such a different story, like you, of how they got staffed. And some people get staffed too early and they're not ready yet, and then they burn out. You know, it's it's there's all different the as I'm sure you guys have heard, the the path to to being on staff and and and working, you know, and keeping your job and then you know, getting that next job. There's so many hurdles in the in the in the industry. And I know for me, I just I take everyone as they come and and I don't, you know, no matter what your level is, like you could be a co-ap and you might not be as good as the staff writer. Like I I I have seen that. So it's kind of like um forget, you know, forgetting the levels in in a sense. And sometimes, you know, co-ap is better than the other way around. So um I think it really all just titles to me don't matter as much, I guess, if if that were my answer.

SPEAKER_02 20:34

I I I want to talk a little bit about a couple of things. It's such an interesting journey you're talking about about going on a show as an assistant and becoming eventually the showrunner, being sort of a begrudging assistant. Not that you didn't want to do the work, but that you were by far ready to be a staff writer and had to be an assistant. And this is very common in this industry where people are ready and there, but there's no job for them. So they have to kind of hold back the reins on what they want to do. And then you mentioned that you weren't their people. And you know, for people trying to get staffed, there's only like six jobs, five jobs, eight jobs, whatever there are. And the show owners have friends and they have people they've worked with. So it's really hard to get that one open job that the studio is not pushing, that someone else is not pushing to actually give that opportunity to somebody, which so you you you get it eventually. They you get it through working, being in the room, making these people know who you are. You are now their people. But is there a moment like a like was there a moment when you realized you were the people, meaning like you were gonna set the tone now because you were gonna become the showrunner. It was gonna be your world. And there was like these people didn't have the belief in me to start. And I'm sure it was not a belief, it was just that there was a spot, there was one less spot than they needed, and you didn't, you know, if Bernanke's pushing, I'm sure there's a lot of pressure for them to put you in there. But like, just like a reverse Schadenfreud, like a like a feeling of like, I did this, I I I am now past their expectations of where they. I was going to be, I am now running this show. Talk about that moment where you sort of found out and and the and then maybe the fears around, oh my God, I'm running a show. Because I'm sure there's some.

SPEAKER_03 22:13

Well, I will have, I will let me just say that uh Mark and I'm who uh is um the create one of the creators of Arrow and was my showrunner for years, and um also Wendy Miracle, who ended up becoming a showrunner, they were so so they they immediately Mark was the one who was you know there from season one as a showrunner, but immediately like he saw my it wasn't like he was be, he wasn't like, you know, this, you know, Bet doesn't deserve this or anything. He's been nothing but supportive. I think what hap, what happens is yes, they're your people sometimes, but also when you're a showrunner, you you kind of meet a group of people and and you have this idea of what your room is is going to be like, and there's different people for, you know, you have your kind of action person, you have your character person, and every every showrunner knows it differently. So I think that's um something that people don't think about in terms of like it's not just your friends, but it's also the makeup of the room. So it's you know, it's possible that I didn't fit into that equation either. Um, but I will say that it was awesome. It was awesome becoming the showrunner because there were so many things, and any writer on staff will tell you this that you're like, when I if I were showing her, I would do this and not this. You know, you just have this idea of kind of like a better, a better way that you would do it. And obviously, then when you get into the reality, you're like, oh, I see kind of why things were done this way. You know, that happens too. But it was really great because not only um I felt like I was able to do things the way I wanted to do it, and I had hadn't had that my entire career, I was, you know, literally banging down trying to get in, trying to get into the room. Um, but also creatively just being on a show for so long to be able to tell the stories that I wanted to tell that maybe didn't get past like a couple seasons. Um that was also really rewarding.

SPEAKER_02 24:22

Can I I'm really interested in the moment of this, the moment you became showrunner. And I I've seen this happen a few times. And I don't want to say this happened to you because obviously we don't know each other and I wasn't there when you became showrunner, but for someone who's on staff for a really long time, you know everyone. This is your your work family and your family family. You're spending lots of time with these people for years and years and years. And some staff are going, you're not in charge of hiring and firing. So, like, you know, whatever the over, you know, people are are being let go, and there's 50%, 70% left, and you're still all their friends and and close friends, allies, calling late at night, crying to each other, right, about whatever's going on, uh, cheering each other on. And then you're the showrunner and you're now their boss. And there I've seen a real distance occur because you can't be the boss and the best friend anymore, because that doesn't always work. Is that lonely? Like, what happens in that moment where you have to suddenly wear such a dramatically different hat than the where one you were wearing a day before?

SPEAKER_03 25:19

Yeah, it's interesting because it's very different when you come up on a show. Like I, you know, and this goes across the board to everyone that it's not just the writers, it's people on set, the actors. Um, you know, and I again I started as the writer assistant. So like, so there's I remember, you know, I remember the first time I was on set for my episode as a writer assistant, and I was with the director, and I was actually ironically the first writer, even though I was technically the writer's assistant, to go on set that that wasn't the showrunners, but I was with the director and everyone thought I was the director's assistant. I got put at a different table because I was like the right, you know, the writer and and just was not treated the way that. And I had produced my um other episodes of of television, so I knew enough to be like this. I'm feeling like this is like I'm not getting the best treatment. So there was a little bit of, you know, there was a little bit of me remembering those kind of things. Not that I was not that I was out for revenge, that's not what I mean, because it kind of sounds like that's what I was saying. Um, but I make sure that that I make sure I made sure that didn't happen to other writers. Um but with that said, I had friendships with a, I mean, I have been there for six years before I got promoted. So I have friendships with crew members, with the actors that um with the writers where I wasn't the boss, but because I kept gradually moving up, I was getting closer and closer to being sort of the boss that it didn't happen overnight. You know what I mean? So it wasn't it wasn't as drastic as it sounds because I was the number two for you know two years. So like I was I was already kind of getting there. Um, but yeah, well, what I do know is people don't tell you things at all. Like they don't come to you to tell you things, which I I had to, you know, tell my support staff, I remember, because I was always the godmother of of assistants and I still feel like I I have that, you know, relationship with all my support stuff. I want to I want to hear the gossip, I want to hear, I want to hear it all. I feel I still feel like I have that part of me, but I I'm the last to hear, you know, and so to try to get people to treat you the same as they did before is kind of hard. Um, because they're they get a little more nervous. Uh so yeah, there's definitely a little, a little bit of that, but I try to be as approachable as possible. And that was part of that was part of my strategy of becoming showrunner. I talked to every actor, I talked to every, even though I had known them, just to be like, this is how I run, you know, like come to me with everything, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_04 28:13

We've talked quite a lot about your your journey to get here and what you learned along the way. Now that you're here, think about the sort of it become it's a very different sort of pressure. Now you're an established runner of shows. Um so although you can't tell us anything about it, I don't think yet, you have a new show that you're starting to work on. So you're not the writer's assistant working up, you're now somebody who's run uh big shows critically acclaimed on that have done very well. As you approach this one, are you how how does that feel now that you've got a different type of pressure? You know, you're you're not having to prove yourself to people in another way, but you've now got to maintain a level that you've reached. So as you approach this new show, how does that all feel?

SPEAKER_03 29:02

It you know what, it it feels comfortable. I don't know if that's uh a normal thing to say, but I will say going to Sweet Tooth felt very nerve-wracking because that was my first show that I left kind of my home, you know, that I didn't grow up in. I was working with completely new people, a new pod, um uh Netflix. I'd never worked with Netflix, I'd never um, you know, done streaming before. So that was really nerve-wracking, but also I which I kind of skipped this part on arrow, but um when uh you asked me about what it felt like to showrun the first time, I um I was newly engaged, I had to plan a wedding and then I got pregnant. So that was that was kind of my first uh uh experience showrunning. So there was other life things that were kind of even more pressure that was happening on the other side. Um, and so that similarly in Sweet Tooth, um, even I felt more pressure for myself to to get proof to prove myself, but then I had a a new a newborn and I had the and then the world ended. And uh, you know, it there was just like a lot of outside life things um during my time, during these times where where I was given kind of like the biggest opportunities that um it made me, I think in a good way, it put everything in in perspective because I had much larger things that um took my attention away from that pressure.

SPEAKER_04 30:42

So I I know Noah's talked in the past about I think like when you work on a show, try and make sure you work on a show if you can choose, where the showrunners got children, because the hours are different to those who don't. Um and you know, it it's a it's a big deal. And obviously, it's a big deal for Noah. Um when he has to go to Hawaii, he misses I I had to be the surrogate father for his son's birthday because he wasn't here for for one the other day. Um the for you because you've sort of your career and your family have been changing at the same time, running a show and being a parent um how do you how do you think about your room and your staff, presumably some of whom have children and some don't actually and might want different things from the experience? So how how does that all what they call work-life balance in normal careers? How does that sort of play into this career where I don't think normally they care about such things?

SPEAKER_03 31:43

Yeah, I think well, I think a lot has changed, obviously, because of the pandemic, but even before I was running the show, our before I was running arrow, our hours were our uh when Wendy Miracle became showrunner, she had kids, Mark has kids. Um, and also we became efficient because we were in season four or we were in season four or five, and all the hours, our room hours were like we were done by like five, you know, like we were done with a room by five. There might be other work that people had to do, but like, you know, I I kind of saw that as, you know, which I always kind of knew you don't need to be in the room for 10 hours, like nothing's gonna happen. As soon as you order dinner, like it's over. Everyone's eating and then they're falling asleep, you know, nothing's happening. Um, and especially for people with families, like I really, even before I had uh my child, I when I was showrunning and uh before I was even pregnant, I let everyone know that they're their kids and their and even just like doctor's appointment and personal life, like things that happen, like those are important. And and it's not to say that like you could just leave for, you know, for a random vacation or something like that. But like if you have something important that's going on with your family, like just let us, you know, always let me know because that comes first. Because if you don't let your writers have a life, and if they can't be with their family and they're just miserable, they're not gonna give you their best work. And there's also no, there's a need for you, don't need to, in my experience, at least I don't need to run a ship like that. I don't need to run a ship where like it's not flexible and you can't allow your writers to see your family. I just think, and now even more so with having a baby, or he's not a baby anymore. He's almost three. Um, with having a toddler, um, you know, he's he's the most important thing in my life, um, as my husband tells me all the time. Um husband sick. But um, you know, and and there are as long as you get the work done and you create good work, there's no reason why you can't do it all. There really isn't.

SPEAKER_02 34:03

This made me think of something. And it was in a recent exchange I had on social media with uh aspiring writer who said that her friend warned her not to talk about having a special needs child in meetings or to anybody. And I I'm open, I have a child with autism. So I'm public about it. It's been a journey that's made me a better human being, a better father, um, all kinds of things. And I'm okay if the world knows about it at this point. Now, granted, I'm not just starting my career anymore. When you're casting a room, so to speak, and you spoke about that to begin. There's the action person, there's a this, there's that. But now I feel like you know, you've had children, but also the world is changing to a certain degree where it's like the past life of the human being in front of you matters, not just the way they write, but but the experience they bring to the table. If this is sort of a two-part question, is like, what are you looking for when you're casting your staff? And also, you know, should should somebody be worried about having you know extra responsibilities at home? You know, sometimes women are scared to be say they're pregnant, or they're scared to say all these different things because they're feeling like they're not going to get a job if the show owner knows in four months they have to leave for two, three months, you know, to or or longer, hopefully, to to take care of that child. So uh talk to that a little bit, speak to that a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 35:16

Yeah, it's it's actually interesting because I was just talking, I forgot who I was talking to, um, but I was just noticing a lot in recently staffing and just in meetings and stuff that a lot of people, and I don't know if this is just random, but a lot of people don't have kids. Like, and I don't know, and I know I've heard through um, you know, all the different campaigns with the assistant pay and and things that like people and on you know, IaTSI that people were putting that part of their lives on hold. And it just made me like really reflect on like how many people have I worked with that as kids, and now I'm starting to be the only one with a kid, like I'm starting to like notice that a lot more that it's not just a young and it's not just because it's like a young person where people are too young to have kids, it's like across the board. Um, and it's hard because it's it's hard, obviously being a parent, but this career, I do think there was a stigma against, especially women. Like, I don't, I don't think as much as men, but like, you know, if you're pregnant, then there, you know, everyone's doing the math of like, oh, maternity, which by the way, there's not even really maternity leave um through the writer's guild. I think there is now, but I think it took a while. Um, but anyways, it it's it's hard. I remember running into a writer who was staffing and she was like six months pregnant, and I was like, oh hey, hard. She's like, I'm staffing, but I don't even know why. Like, look at me, you know, like no one's gonna hire me. Um, so I do think I like to think that because of the pandemic and from people working at home and you're actually seeing other you're seeing their children and and and uh how people have to balance their lives in your face, it's not just something that you hear about that I think there's more of a consideration for for people and their families and to have a little more balance. And I know um, you know, for setting sending people to set, if people have kids, um that that's not a requirement, like you wouldn't be forced to go to set and things like that um on some shows. I know I would never force someone to go to set, regardless, but um, but definitely if you have kids and and you don't have childcare and you, you know, those are real, these are real things that everyone is scared to kind of bring up because you don't want to feel like you're being difficult or that you aren't a good team player, or there's you know, someone it'll be a negative uh recommendation for your next job or something like that.

SPEAKER_04 37:56

So unfortunately we've reached the end of the podcast. Uh so a final question which we ask every guest is if you could give a single piece of advice to somebody looking to enter the industry, what would it be?

SPEAKER_03 38:13

I think uh my advice is it would just be as simple as just keep keep trying, just keep going. Uh, you know, if it if you're feeling frustrated, if you feel like it's never gonna happen, I think you just have to keep you just have to keep trying. If it's something that you really, really want to do and and um and that's a you know a personal decision for everyone, but I almost gave up so many times, like so many times. And um, I'm so glad I didn't. Uh and I think yeah, the advice would be to just keep keep trying everything. You know, that's what I try. You never know what's gonna when that opportunity is gonna come. You never know who's gonna give you your first shot. Um and so you you just gotta keep you gotta keep trying.

SPEAKER_04 39:13

Excellent. So bestworts and inspiration to writers assistants and writers everywhere. Thank you very much for being part of our podcast.

SPEAKER_03 39:23

Thank you. Thank you, guys. And I I just want to add one more thing. I still have never been staffed on a show. I just would like to point that out.

SPEAKER_04 39:31

Never too.

SPEAKER_03 39:36

Thank you. Thank you, guys.

SPEAKER_02 39:40

And that's a wrap on this episode of Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss. As always, we want to thank James Launch for the amazing theme music.

SPEAKER_04 39:48

Do you before we sort of thank our wives and stuff, do you think anyone actually listens this far, or do they stop when the music comes back in?

SPEAKER_02 39:54

I think they normally stop after you mention your second and third podcast. That'd be my guess. Well, I haven't mentioned them yet, though, have I? Uh if you do want to reach out with us to us for criticisms, complaints, or praise, uh, you can either reach out to us through the website or I am at nebslin on Twitter. And Dan, do you have an account?

SPEAKER_04 40:14

Not that anyone really cares about. So if you've got complaints about the show, go to NEBSlin and feel free to air those. If you have praise or you want to pay us in some way for something, come to at Dan Rotstein. And have a great day.