Take 139 - Co-Creators Tim Walsh and Elliot Wolf, On Call

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for shore, dozens of unproduced scripts literature.

SPEAKER_04 0:13

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

There is sometimes even failure. This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is like everything in our business here.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

I was being told by my manager, and I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking like, well, that's it for me. I do my one big shot what I've realized that that won't be. It's never one big bot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

Brought to you by the Emmy Award-winning annotation software scriptation. As ever, I am Dan Rutstein, your non-entertainment co-host.

SPEAKER_04 1:22

And at this exact second, but who knows what the future will hold, I am still in the entertainment, I am you're still in the entertainment business, co-host Noah Epsilon. Uh today I'm delighted to introduce uh Timothy Walsh and Elliot Wolf, the co-creators and co-showrunners of Amazon's new 30-minute crime drama On Call. On top of On Call, Timothy Walsh has been a writer and producer on such amazing shows as Chicago PD, Shooter, Treadstone, Night Stalker, The Hunt for a Serial Killer, Hightown, and more. Meanwhile, Elliot Wolf was a writer and producer on Law and Order Criminal Justice System, as well as a number of scripted podcast series, including Hunted and Dark Woods. He's also currently the executive vice president of digital media at Wolf Entertainment. Welcome, Tim and Elliot.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Thank you for having us, man.

SPEAKER_03 2:11

I'll clarify um Law and Order was a non-scripted podcast, but was executive producer on that. Tim has the showrunner title. I just get to co-create with him.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

Love it. But I am not here without Elliot, so we are on equal four together.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

So this is perfect because uh we've had uh a number of times in the past, we've had co-creators, we've had writers who work as a pair, um, we've had various sort of types of duos on. And one of my favorite things to do is try and ruin their relationship by asking questions about like when they argue with each other, when do they fall out? So I'm I'm gonna start there because we're already arguing about job titles. So um how do you two work as a pair together in a very complicated world that Hollywood is with all the challenges it faces? Uh, how have you how do you two sort of help each other get through navigate that world?

SPEAKER_01 3:10

You want to take it, Tim or me? Um let's say I you know, I do get asked that question. I used to have a writing partner, so um, you know, I get asked that question a lot. First and foremost, just respect. You gotta respect the person you're working with. If you don't have respect for that person, it's it's gonna fall apart right away. Um, I'll be honest with Elliot and I we have never really had many arguments. You know, it's been a really great relationship. Um, we wanted the same thing from day one. I mean, Elliot, pop in here if you if you feel differently or if you think of anything differently, but uh it's been a battle, and we've uh stood kind of shoulder to shoulder together to get through it, quite honestly.

SPEAKER_03 3:48

Yeah, I mean this show has been four and a half or five years of development, scripting, production, post-production now, and Tim and I met in conversation for this series. And I would say that we really found our groove somewhat quickly from the first Zoom. We shared a larger vision of what the show could and should be, and I honestly think the friendship came from being able to work together so well and finding uh that groove. You know, I think also we have pretty different skill sets. Tim is the showrunner. Um I always sort of came at this pitch from day one with a business cap on of what the market wanted in a new show and what is otherwise a very crowded landscape of police dramas, and uh shared a vision with Tim of how to execute that. So I would say that Tim is now a dear friend, but it started with this project as well, which I think is honestly a healthy way of going about a partnership as opposed to being a friend first and then figuring it out.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

And I'm too old to be working with somebody I'm fighting with every day. It's just it's not worth it, quite honestly. Nothing is worth it, no project is worth it. If that's what you know, if that's what you you guys are doing and fighting every day, it's it's find something else to do.

SPEAKER_00 5:27

So um you mentioned the the crowded marketplace. So um, as a not industry person, um, I think I can ask this question. I actually asked it last week. Uh last week we had um uh JJ Bailey uh who created uh the hunting party on, and I and this is a genuine because I don't quite understand how some bits of Hollywood work. My question was like, how do you find, create a pitch, and then manage to sell a procedural in a world where there are procedurals on you know every night of the week? Um, so I'm just gonna it's slightly lazy of me, but I'm gonna ask exactly the same question as you guys, and um is obviously you're well aware of the landscape, there are plenty of police shows. When you come up with it, how do you find your way into uh making this show different, special, clever, and getting it out there given that there are a lot of shows in place, and I can only imagine a lot of people trying to pitch new ones as well.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

I can say Elliot, that's that this this one starts with Elliot, so I'll let him take that.

SPEAKER_03 6:34

Yeah, I mean I can say the show's taking on multiple iterations to reach its final form. The initial concept for this was a short form series um that then became a half hour, and the pitch from day one, but specifically for the half hour, was really telling the buyer to take a look at the 1950s, 1960 primetime schedule, which were all half hour procedural dramas. There's none in the market today, and everyone's attention has never been more valuable. So, why not take a proven format that requires less time on behalf of the viewer, less investment up front, and figure out a way to make it new again? And that was the challenge for Tim and I, which was super fun. You know, it's not I think we have a ton of inspiration across the board, but using Adam 12 as one of several inspirations, what is the 2025 version of that show and the version that ideally keeps people hooked on a bingeable basis, right? So I always say we're doing uh we're sort of doing the modern procedural in the sense that it's not truly close-ended every episode. You have the larger arc of our two protagonists' two protagonists' relationship, which I think is the heart of the series as well.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

You know, I would I would add to that in the room, we would say all the time, you know, we we did not set out to reinvent the wheel, you know. I don't think we ever felt we could do that. You know, to get back to what you're saying, Dan, like how do you make yourself different? It's it's us. We're you know, we we just make you can't reinvent the wheel, so we'll make our own version of it. So we would always say, like, what's our version of a of a rate? What's our version of a traffic stop? You know, what's our version of any kind of call, a murder scene, this or that? Just what's our version of it? And and also what's the R-rated version of it? Because this show, different from the network shows uh uh from Wolf Entertainment, you know, they're not R-rated, and I came from those shows. So this we had a lot of latitude, creatively speaking, to where you know we could do what we wanted to, and and and our imprint was how we were gonna make it different. Outside of that, we were definitely not gonna twist ourselves into a pretzel trying to figure out how to make the most unique uh procedural out there. I it's just it's very difficult because as you said, the landscape is full of them. So we just tried to make it our own.

SPEAKER_04 9:16

Uh I mean, okay, let me let me sort of back up a little bit because I've been binging the show, right? I've been in the world of of procedural cop drama for the last 10 years of my life. And uh I was I saw an article about this a while ago about this 30-minute crime drama that was you guys were attempting to make, and I was like so you know intrigued because it really is, you know, it's crime dramas are done a certain way because that way sort of works, right? And they've been doing it that way for so long. And I know that we fight for every word when we have 42 minutes. So I'm like, how do they how are they gonna pull this off in 30 minutes and make it feel whole? Right. And you guys absolutely do. It feels like to me, as I was watching it, sort of even though NYPD Blue and Southland were hour-long dramas, it has the vibe of both. You know, NYP, like we've gone backwards when it comes to actually being gritty, and when it comes to like ever I asked about the history of that, it was like the Janet Jackson thing on CBS with Justin at the Super Bowl, really made the you know sensors go crazy, and we and our procedurals ever since then have been more and more sanitized. So great job, great job. And and how do you make it? I mean, how do you do it in 30 minutes and make it feel like a complete piece? You guys did that in a in a fantastic way. I'm gonna recommend everybody go out and watch the show. It, you know, we'll say that to our audience. Obviously, it's doing quite well. The larger audience is already connected with this show. But I'm really curious about something, Elliot, that you said about this. You know, it feels like when you watch something that's well done, it just feels like this was the inspiration for the show. You executed it, it came out, and we're now all watching it. But you said there were many iterations of this show, uh five-year journey at least to get it on the air. What were some of the challenges you faced trying to launch your series?

SPEAKER_03 11:02

So definitely many iterations. The original concepts bounced around uh a couple of different platforms that were considering short form with Quibi ultimately being the highest bidder. Quibi had the two-screen technology where you could hold your phone horizontally and have your traditional cinematic aspect ratio. But if you held your phone vertically, the platform would flip to a different shot in vertical dimensions. And none of the series that debuted with Quibi were really exercising that technology. If you flipped your phone vertically, you'd have the same shot and a different aspect ratio. So the original pitch was do a call per episode. And if you hold your phone vertically, you are always in body camera. Now, having shot the series, that would have been much more difficult than uh we thought when pitching it. And we can talk about production with all of the found footage and the challenges there, but it is quite challenging to capture a scene in body camera and so forth. Uh, so that was the initial idea. Luckily, I saw the writing on the wall with the way that the world was moving and wanted to pivot away from short form. So, as we were in those conversations, uh developed a half-hour pitch that we took to Amazon and they said, uh, we would love to explore doing this. So at the time, sort of had a choice and went with the latter. And that's really when we started to think about the characters as the heartbeat of the show. Because if you have eight or nine minutes of script, you're in a singular call, you can propel the audience through that entire episode with action. The heart of on call as it came to be, I think, is without a doubt, the time spent in the car in between the calls, what Tim and I would consider the office for our uh for Harmon and Diaz, our training officer and rookie. And uh that sort of blew open the idea of everything that you saw today. And that five-year process um was both scripting and the development cycle with Amazon, but we also hit some unique roadblocks in the form of a writer's strike, in the form of an elongated wait for the release of the series once we had delivered it because of the world at large and uh Amazon's slate, and just you know, they wanted to set us up for success with the release, and it was just a very long process from start to finish because of the world at large.

SPEAKER_04 13:58

Uh wow. I mean, the thing about back to Quibi, I was like, you know, Quibi was obviously a number of years ago. I had sold something like the Snapchat, faced some of the same challenges. So I know what you know you guys were in for for the short form stuff. And Tim, this is a question for you, Timothy, uh, directed at you. So at what part were you then sort of looped in as sort of not a short form guy, definitely like a procedural guy and a and a and a you know drama guy? Like when were you brought into the pitch and when did you sort of did you begin to reshape it with uh with Elliot to a new sensibility? Or was it kind of fully, fully you know fleshed out when you were brought in, or were you brought in from Quippy?

SPEAKER_01 14:33

Uh no, and Elliot, correct me if I'm wrong, uh, it was set up at Freebie. Uh it had landed at Freevie and Elliot was looking for somebody to come in and and partner up with him, showrun who had experience. Um and uh I remember, you know, the first Zoom we had, he left me with a question, which was who would want to be a police officer in 20, I think it was 2022 at that point in time. It was a fascinating question. And that's a fascinating character as well, you know, because it's such a turbulent time. And um to get up, you know, and put that uniform on and to go out and to serve your community when half the community doesn't want you, want you there. I was hooked right away. And and to answer your question, was it fully baked? There was nothing really other than the two characters and also Elliot's willingness to be like what whatever you want to do, whatever you want to bring to it, he was open to it and game. And uh uh it just the the opportunity seemed just creatively uh too good to pass up.

SPEAKER_03 15:36

Yeah. I from the first I think on both ends. I had talked with a couple other folks. Tim and I walked away from that Zoom being like, oh, this could really be something. And we had previous materials that we share with Amazon and so forth, and Tim didn't want to see any of them. And I was like, fuck yeah. Like let's let's excuse my language, let's uh let's do it. And uh yeah, everything that you see on the page is the partnership of the two of us.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

So um I'm gonna ask a question again. I asked somebody the other day this, so don't think I'm lazy, I only used reused questions, but I think it's relevant here. So we had a lady on the show uh last year, uh Wendy West, um, who had worked in your universe. You probably you're nodding, so you probably know her. Um, and I remember asking her this question, which was when you first entered the wolf universe, as it were, like how different was that to normal uh writing in terms of the pressure of success? Now, obviously, it's slightly different for you guys because this is your world all the time. But I guess if if this wasn't uh if you were just going on an or you know, doing a normal show for a normal person, that's fine. But you know, this is associated with the world that you're from where everything has been a massive success. How does that change sort of uh how you think about getting the show on the air and the expectations after release because of everything that goes before?

SPEAKER_01 17:06

Well, I think we put that related. Go ahead, Tim. No, I I if I understand your question correctly, you're uh how how was my career affected by entering the wolf universe?

SPEAKER_00 17:18

No, but in terms of this show, when you're putting this show together, because you know, like obviously, like other things you've done, it's going to be part of the wolf universe. The I guess the the bar is higher, the expectations, the pressure. So as this show gets put together, how does that how does that affect how you would do it?

SPEAKER_01 17:36

You know, we had probably the greatest resource ever, which is Dick Wolf, you know, and he he read everything, every every outline, every draft, and he continuously pushed us and um you know made us you know think about it all the time as entertainment. He kept saying this you have to feel like you're shot out of a canon. You know, every episode needs to feel like you're shot out of a canon, needs to feel like it's popcorn for the audience, that you know, snackable entertainment to steal one of Elliot's uh great phrases. Um so yeah, the bar was always high. I don't think either one of us were intimidated by that, you know, because both of us coming into this, and we're at we're at very different parts of our career. You know, I have had some at bats uh as as a as a showrunner, which with shows that failed, and I was pretty much thinking this may be my last shot. So I wasn't quite concerned about failure uh because I you know I had already failed so much up to this point, and if we were gonna fall on anybody's sword, it was gonna be on our own sword, you know. Um so Dick was there every step of the way, and he kept the bar raised and he kept on us to uh uh to make the product. I I believe how it turned out. He had a huge hand in that.

SPEAKER_03 18:49

Yeah. I was just gonna call out that this was Wolf's first streaming series, which both is an exciting opportunity, but also uncharted territory, which means we had the privilege of thinking a little bit more outside the box, which I guess you could amount to pressure, but I don't think we necessarily saw it that way so much as opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

One of the notes we oh, I'm sorry, man. Continue. I was gonna say one of the notes we kept getting was be more gnarly, be more gnarly, be more R-rated, not just from Dick, but from the team over there. Uh was just you know, push it, push it, push it. And uh, and we did. We tried our, you know, we tried to keep all always always push uh the boundaries wherever possible.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

That's exactly right. That's a great answer to that question. Um Tim, obviously, I wouldn't be doing my job properly on this podcast if I can't follow up with a question to you about what you've just said, which is um please tell me about one of your showrunner failures, because um, we do like to hear them.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

One of them, I have a few of them. Uh well, you know, it you know, and Noah, I'm sure you felt all of this, but it, you know, in development, you know, you have I I've been at you know, developed a couple of high, high-end properties, and you know, you think you're right at the goal line and it's gonna go. And you have directors and you're talking about where you're gonna shoot it, and and and it just, you know, it doesn't go, you know, and and they drop it at the last at the last minute, and then you're like, okay, well, let's go out and we can sell it elsewhere. There'll be four, there'll be four suitors lined up to get in. Nobody lines up. You know, the door just closes on you. And then it happened to me a number of times. Um, you know, it took me 23 years to become a showrunner, man. You know, so I mean, like, nothing was lost on me by the time I got there. Um, but yeah, I've I've had a number of, I don't know if you want to get into those details of that, but yeah, I've had a number of failures uh leading up to this. And uh I knew what this opportunity was in front of me. I treated it like it would be my last opportunity to write television. We would tell that honestly, just to add to my to that answer, you know, every time a writer, one of our staff writers would go off to script, I we would always say, treat this as if you're never getting another opportunity to write television, because you are guaranteed nothing uh beyond what's in front of you. And that's this opportunity. So put everything you have in this script. Because as you guys know, man, like, and especially now with the business being as bad as it is, you may never get an opportunity to do this again. So why not give it everything you have?

SPEAKER_04 21:27

So interesting because you know, I think you and I both come from a world where uh nothing was guaranteed in our careers. We could be fired at any moment, right? And we live you live in that world of like you always gotta perform, you always gotta be there for the showrunner. If you're not the showrunner, you always gotta just bring your A game. And then, you know, there's been sort of a different breed of TV writers coming up that don't necessarily have that same mentality of like you were telling the young writers, no, this is not like a yes, you signed a three year contract, it's not a three year gig. Like you can't do it like that. Like every second, you gotta keep, you gotta bring. You've got to ask your showrunner how can I help you? What can I do? You know, blah, so forth and so forth. And it's it's interesting how that mentality has changed.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

Uh yeah, as a writer on staff, I would just add to that is your your job is to make the showrunners' life easier, you know, and and be in service of the of the showrunner. Uh, oftentimes that can go off the rails. We've we've probably both been in situations and and been in toxic environments. Um, but yeah, uh I I I'm in agreement with with what you just said.

SPEAKER_03 22:28

I would just double down on that quickly too, and say I think one of the secrets to our success was finding not only writers, but department heads and a larger team that all felt like they had something to prove with this series. Tim and I certainly did. I would argue that a lot of our department heads and casts felt the same in whether it be their first streaming series, what or uh whatever the individual motivation was, it was really important to us that everyone felt as motivated as as we did. And we were very lucky in finding a team that did, and I genuinely think that's a huge part of what you see on screen. Oh we're a very small and nimble crew, all things considered.

SPEAKER_04 23:17

Later on, I want to ask a little bit about the nuts and polts of getting your show to feel as realistic as it does because it's a really great job with that. Um, Elliot, I'm fascinated by something because I, you know, I, you know, I'm been a screenwriter for the last 20 years. My kids have been raised in the world of screenwriting. I am no Dick Wolf, but they've lived and breathed screenwriting since they were little babies and they've rebelled against it every step of the way, right? I wouldn't, you know, I don't like I see what you do, and I don't want to do that. I want to do anything else but what you want to do. But then slowly I see my oldest like working on a screenplay. Like it sort of gets into your DNA. Now, for you, Elliot, this is a much different level of DNA, but was it always preordained you'd go into this world, or did you rebel at an early age and go, nope, I'm gonna go join the Navy? And then you know what? Maybe TV is not so bad.

SPEAKER_03 24:03

Uh always wanted to be in this world. Honestly, never planned on working with Dick or the team here. The opportunity sort of presented itself. I was working uh more in the digital space. And at the time that I joined the company, the company had just launched FBI, and there was the increasing amount of crossover, not only between the shows and the franchise, but the franchises themselves, and this opportunity to build what has now sort of been dubbed the wolf universe. Um, so it was sort of a unique situation, and what I had been doing elsewhere complemented what where the company needed to go. And um I came on board and you know, I think that um it's really been an amazing experience working with the entire Wolf team. But to answer your question, never expected to be here nor wanted to be here until that opportunity presented itself. I always really want to do my own thing, and I try to still, to a certain extent, um create my own signature alongside the company and help the company expand in that capacity.

SPEAKER_04 25:16

But what was a this is uh Elliot, another question for you, just but like what is like one of your earliest struggles? Because I do see that you you you really focused on scripted podcasts, obviously something that you know I don't think your father did, and now you're doing uh streaming, something that your you know your dad is so famous in the world of network television, but obviously is now expanded that as well. What what some of your early challenges as you entered the business?

SPEAKER_03 25:39

Uh as I entered the business.

SPEAKER_04 25:41

Um or now, and anytime through, but just some of your like the things that you've had to work through.

SPEAKER_03 25:48

I think that regardless of the medium, telling a story in a really convincing fashion at a capacity that would be considered the best version that story can be is really, really hard. And I have certainly uh taken some swings and and missed uh you know, another huge piece of it is collaboration. You can't do any of this stuff yourself. So I think that I've learned a lot in um missing, a lot more that you always learn more in the misses than you do the makes. But um, you know, I I I could go on a long list of ideas that didn't make it uh to people's eyes or ears. But uh they've all been learning experiences, and I feel very lucky uh to be in a situation where I get to collaborate with folks who have been doing it for a very long time. The core of the Wolf Entertainment team, uh, Peter Jankowski, who's our president, and Arthur Fournet, who um is taking a little bit of a step back, but that is the head of post-production, um, has been working with Dick for 30 years. So I'm stepping into a team that has seen it all, and hopefully I get to see around the corner a little bit in mistakes that I would make by working with them and obviously getting to work with people like Tim too has been a life-changing experience. I try to surround myself with people who have been doing it longer and are smarter than me, so that I hopefully don't uh make as many mistakes as I would otherwise.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

So look, I I'm not I'm not in your world, but I know enough about it. Uh and mostly Noah doesn't stop moaning about it. That obviously the industry is not in an amazing place at the moment for a variety of reasons. Um so I just want to ask a bit about that in terms of, I mean, I know you already said Tim, you made the point that you know you you work as if this is your last gig, you tell the writers as if it's their last script, uh, and maybe that's more realistic now than it might have been a few years ago. But just in terms of sort of what it is like, what is it like now? You know, you've just got a show out, it's been a success. Is it are you sort of still in a siege mentality, or is there does this feel like maybe this is the green shoots of recovery because the show's doing well? Like what day to day, how what's it like compared to over the years when the industry's been booming and this is a different place?

SPEAKER_01 28:27

Well, I'll tell you, it's never boomed for me, man. Ever. You know, I also like I'm a GED graduate, man. I dropped out of school when I was 15. So like I've never stopped moving. Um, I've never been comfortable once, I think, in this industry. You know, I was a security guard for 10 and a half years at at Bradford, CBS Bradford, where that's really where I learned how to write inside of a guard check. So, like I mean, like, I I've never I've always had to work 10 times harder to get half of what somebody else got. And that's to this day, Elliot and I just created a very successful show and we're still fighting. We're like up against the ropes just to get it, you know, ahead and another season. So, like I don't know how anybody could ever be comfortable in anything in this business, ever, you know, unless you're sitting on a stockpile of cash and stocks within within the studios and all that. I've never had that luxury, man. Um, you know, I don't know. I I've always felt like I've had to keep fighting, and I and I I don't know, I still feel that way. You know, I feel like if I walked away today, uh, you know, that's it. You know, I don't know if anybody's chasing after me to come back. So I've I've always just had that mentality. And uh probably that's why I've I've gotten the success I've had, but it's taken me an incredibly long time. I don't think I'm trying to answer your question. I don't think I've ever felt comfortable. Um, and again, the business has always been hard, but the one thing I don't want to just like spew negativity, you know. I always fear that there's some kid out there, like in in Bumblefuck, Illinois, or something like that, like me, who's only gonna hear the negative side. And like, you know, whether they're having a hard time in school or with their family, and and they find escapism in TV or whatever, and they really want to pursue it. I don't certainly want to color their opinions. I always want people to pursue their dreams no matter what. So everything's hard, but the one thing you can always control is your effort. Nobody can control that for you. You know, you can sit down and you can write. And if somebody rejects you, you can get back up and you can write again. And if you keep getting rejected, you can keep, you know, working on your skills. You we're no different than athletes. We really aren't, man. You have to like Michael Jordan would get up and shoot 500 free throws. You got to get up, you got to read, you gotta write, you know, you have to go out and interview people, you have to talk to people, you have to cons you have to constantly be working at your craft. Um, and that'll give yourself a chance in in the worst of times and the best of times. But as long as you keep moving ahead, you're always gonna have a shot.

SPEAKER_03 31:02

Fantastic. For the same for for just what it's worth, if Tim walked out of the room, I would chase after him.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

Like he's my one guy, the one guy who would chase after me.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

So look, Tim, it's a great answer. Can I can I also about being a security guard? So yeah, um we've had like you know, we've had loads of Uber drivers, as it were, we've had loads of people working in restaurants, which was what they did before people were doing the Uber driving. We've had uh, I think uh a got a guy, Caddy's at a golf course. We've had different versions of the sort of people running restaurants, the the different jobs you do to get you there.

unknown 31:39

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

Secure guards are really interesting, one because you know, you're presumably literally checking the passes of a load of people whose job you want and you know who you want to be your boss, maybe now someone will work for you. Just talk about that. Obviously, you said you learn to write in the guard chat, but tell us about sort of that that proximity where you you know literally everyone who goes in is going past you and how that sort of kept you going. And at what point you realized that you might be showing your path to security guard rather than the other way around? And at what point did you think this is all it's gonna be for me and in the industry?

SPEAKER_01 32:15

Wow, um, great, great question. I mean, I started out in the mail room at Radford, um, and they only give you a year, it's just some program they do. They they cycle people, at least that's how it was when I was there in the early aughts. I I landed in LA in 2000 from Chicago. Um, and and so I I remember, you know, delivering mail, uh, you know, you do it three, four times a day. I had no time to write, I had no time to read, no time to study. All of my friends were PAs, they had no time to write, no time to read. That's what we all came out here for. So I walked over to the security department and I said, Hey, do you guys have any openings on graveyard? And they I remember the guy looked at me like, nobody wants to work graveyard shift. Why would you want to work graveyard shift? And I lied to him. I said, Because I go to school during the day and I need to be at my classes when really I wanted the time to write at night and still get paid, you know, and then I could still go to pitches or meetings during the day. And uh I was like, okay, I'll do this for a couple of months, and then like, you know, 10 and a half years passes by and I'm still in the guard shack. Um, so you know what? Towards the end, I started selling pilots and I had a pilot with CBS. And um I was it was funny. So I would go up and I'd get notes in the main building, and then I would come down, and then I'd have to like change into my uniform and all that, and then go in the guard shack. And I'll never forget, you know, I would get notes from there was a certain executive who was there, and they would go in and out of the gate. They wouldn't even know who I was in that security outfit. They didn't even recognize me, you know. So I uh that's that sticks with you too, you know what I mean? Like that people don't see you, you know. I I always make it a point. You say hi to everybody, you know. Um, that was a very eye-opening experience, you know. Um, but yeah, you know, you meet a lot of people, uh, met a lot of great people, you know, coming through that gate, met a lot of assholes too, you know, coming through that gate. Um none of that ever affected me though, man. I was always just like I said, I was always on my own trajectory, and uh, I would just keep my head down and people were assholes, and uh it doesn't matter. I was just gonna keep writing and keep pushing it.

SPEAKER_04 34:29

Okay, uh I got lost I got lost in that story for a second. I was still like the podcast or what, man? No, no, a couple of things that fascinated me about your story, and then I have a question for Elliot. But like, um, and that I think you know, you were worried about people pulling out sort of the negativity. I think with with this podcast, people pull out that it took 10 and a half years for you to get out of the guard shack, that you were in a guard shack. I mean, we got people out there who have been like, I've been writing for seven years and no manager and agent, like 10 and a half years for Tim. And I feel like, again, we know we come from a world in the past where you had to fight for everything. And this industry is so scary right now. But what it really is, is you have to fight for everything again, right? There was a moment, peak television, where maybe it got a little easier for some people, right? But we're just back to the normal retraction. At some point when we all started, there was only four four networks, right? You didn't, there wasn't a ton. But Elliot, I I'm fascinated by something because there's a little bit of parallel uh between you and I where I had a very similar job for Shonda Rhimes, where I was sort of her digital person, producer for years, and I was also her like future of TV person, right? She would pick my brain and pay, you know, as part of my job to just figure out where television was going.

SPEAKER_03 35:41

And that was a very sort of pre- Oh, I want to have a longer conversation with you about that experience.

SPEAKER_04 35:46

Well, this is why I'm gonna ask you the question for the podcast, and then we can sidebar about I'm sure you have some ideas that you are either willing to share in brief or you know, you want to keep to yourself. And obviously, one of them is like, let's go back to the 30-minute drama, which is what you guys did. And I have a feeling you're gonna see a floodgate because we've all been wanting to do 30-minute dramas and they've been hesitant for whatever reason. So you guys open the gates to something that's that feels fresh, even though you mentioned it was in the 60s and 70s. But like, what else, you know, are you kind of, you know, you have a show on the air, so I'm guessing you're a little bit more bullish about Hollywood right now, but even with everything going on, what is your perspective, Elliot, about sort of the next five years and where should people be looking?

SPEAKER_03 36:28

So I think that the modern procedural is still right for a larger comeback. The streamers want volume all of a sudden. And the limited series that you can get a season every 18 or 24 months are going to be not out of vogue, but less in vogue than they were when people, you know, taking a step back, and I don't want to get too granular. I feel like there's been phases of what's been dubbed the streaming wars, where when the streaming wars first started, the streamers knew that once you chose to shop for a show within with on their platform, you're very you're not very likely to leave. So there is this huge spin for what you would consider the branding war within the streaming wars. When you open your Apple TV or Fire Stick, where do you go? HBO, Netflix, Hulu, whatever it may be. Now that's obviously no longer the case. They're having to show some path to profitability. And they want volume because it's very expensive not only to make a show, but it's very expensive to launch a show. So they want to keep shows on the air and ideally keep folks coming back in the spring and fall. Uh, so I think that's where buying habits are going in terms of the larger industry. I'm less concerned with AI taking folks' jobs in television and film. I think that all the technology that you're seeing is going to create net new entertainment formats that will be very interesting and serve different purposes outside of what people sit down and watch at the 9 p.m. or 10 p.m. hour on their couch in their homes on a weeknight. Uh I think that people inherently have space in their day for television. And great storytelling is as old as our history books and will be executed in some capacity till the end of time. And I think television will probably be the means of delivering great stories for a very long time to come. But there will be net new experiences as well that are super interesting to us too, um, that provide more interactive, bite-sized stories, um, stories out in the real world. Uh probably there's more space for brands to play in the storytelling landscape. So, all in all, I actually think that technology is a great thing for storytelling. And I also don't think that the existential threat of AI to the traditional TV and film business is as imminent or as perhaps threatening as some people see it.

SPEAKER_04 39:29

Well, great answer. Hopefully, reassuring to many of our you know, people obviously are fighting with over AI. I tend to He reassured me. I feel better. Yeah, 100% agree with the things that you say, Elliot. Okay, uh back to one of our sort of bread and butter questions for you guys. I mean, on call, five years to get it on the air. Uh, and this is a question for both of you, you know, to take turns on. Is like first, but you know, both of you to answer, and then it's a two-part question, is and then the second part for both of you to answer. What was the biggest high moment for the two of you, you know, individually about getting on call on the air with like the moment it premiered, the first day on set, getting the green lit. And what was the lowest low for this you know, five-year journey of getting on call on the air? Uh starting with Tim.

SPEAKER_01 40:13

Yeah. Um, the biggest high for me, I gotta tell you, you know, I'm gonna go back to me dropping out of high school. I'll I remember our very last night of shooting. We were shooting at a truck stop in Long Beach, and uh I never did the communal activity of people signing your yearbook because I never went through that. I left school when I was 15 or 16, early mid-teens. And so I I uh Elliot and I wrote the the finale, and um that night everybody I'm talking about from lowest set PA to the highest person on set signed uh my script, which I have in my office. I I have it saved, and everybody wrote like a note, you know what I mean? And I treated it like it was like a graduation, and I just remember, I mean, just to this day, I'll go in there and I'll flip through it every now and then, and it'll be a reminder of what was accomplished after so much effort. That was probably the high that night being on set and uh knowing it was coming to a close, but knowing that I think the biggest thing I'm I'm most proud of outside of what you see on screen is that we fostered a very compassionate environment. You don't know you've probably been on in any of these shows where it's very toxic, you know. Um, I mean, most of my experiences have not been good. Most people's experiences are not good, and that shit's just gotta fucking end, man. You know, you know, we we have to have people with uh just be able to treat people better, you know, um, and and and and leave their egos at the door. So so one of the things I'm most proud of, and one thing that probably I would say is more high is is that night and the fact that we created such an environment where uh I love everybody that we worked with, absolutely from cast, crew, everybody. It was it was it was incredible. Do you want me to answer the low?

SPEAKER_04 42:01

We'll bounce back and forth. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 42:04

I have a couple different highs. I think one of my takeaways actually was not necessarily one of my highest highs was the show coming out. And this is sounds super cliche, but it's very much about the journey and you work towards this goal of releasing it publicly. Of course, Tim and I had probably seen each of the eight episodes over 200 times by the time it came out. Um there were a couple hives for me. I think one that really stands out was seeing a cut for the first time, um, which was during production. I'll never forget, I'm gonna swear again. We watched a cut, and Tim looks at me and goes, dude, we might have fucked around and made something special. And that was a moment that really stuck with me because I was feeling the exact same thing. Um, so seeing obviously you're watching dailies through uh the pilot sort of nervously, and seeing a rough cut of the pilot, I was like, wow, this this works. And I I also think we got unbelievably lucky with Troy Ann and Brandon as our one and two on the call sheet, both individually amazing actors, but their chemistry together was so apparent from day one. You know, we Tim and I joked that the first day on set felt like the first day of season two for the two of them. But I think seeing that cut was a high. I also remember our first day on set, we pull up and we pull up to where we were actually shooting the scene. If you remember in the pilot, the scene where they pull over the kid with the meth pipe, which we uh affectionately uh named Tough Luck in in school. Was where we were actually dropped for Video Village. And then I went to the bathroom, and there was like 60 trailers between crafty wardrobe casts, everything else. And I was like, wow, we've been talking about this day for months, but the scale of seeing it all was overwhelming. And that was a very, very cool moment as well.

SPEAKER_04 44:31

Awesome, awesome. And now now in brief, let's do the lows. Uh lows, the worst moment that you can share.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

Yeah, brief is because I don't really have much. I mean, you know, uh the the good thing about the hard journey, the 23 years of being a showrunner, excuse me, is uh you learn how to handle stuff a lot better. I I don't really get too low, you know, with things. Um I'll say this going through the development and the notes and and all that stuff was tough, man. I mean, do do a cop show in in in this day and age um was incredibly difficult. And uh some of the the notes and stuff we were getting through development were fucking crazy. So I'm gonna leave it there.

SPEAKER_03 45:17

From all angles, yeah. There's just um it was fine in the show. That I think that was tough. Honestly, for me, it was probably I don't know, there were several. I not I'm I'm not commenting on the strike itself. I think that um yeah, the the guilds strike for all the right reasons and so forth, but just the personal timing for us of being three weeks into production on a show that we've been working on for you know, at that point, two and a half, three years, and not having a timeline to return. Um and it feeling sort of very early on, like it was gonna be a long time. It wasn't gonna be something that was resolved in a week or two. That was just a practice in patience that was unlike any other exercise I I've gone through before. Um and I'm you know, on the other end of the spectrum, you look back and like, oh, it wasn't too long. But I think that was probably the love during that period, knowing that and also supporting it all and so forth. And it's just something outside of your control that's bigger than your series. But um, having hit pause after just getting going.

SPEAKER_01 46:44

Yeah, being forced to walk away, that's a great answer, by the way. Being forced to walk away as we were from this thing, especially for me, man. Like I said, it took me such over you know two decades to get there. And then suddenly people are saying you can't even show up to set. That was incredibly hard.

SPEAKER_00 47:01

Great answers. And look, we're unfortunately we're we're basically at the end. We've got a final question, but I'm gonna ask one sneaky extra one. Um, it's not really a failure and adversity question. I guess it's a a sort of maybe inside baseball one, and you guys all do this for a living, so you probably all know the answer to this, but I'm just fascinated by this, particularly because it's a cop show as well. So, like everyone loves firefighters, that's or everyone's always loved firefighters. The relationship with the police in this country, you know, is complicated. Um, now obviously you're working on the show, you're working with police. I assume you've got all your experts who are ex-cops and all that stuff. Yep. Um, if you were to drive through Long Beach today uh and be pulled over by the police uh or or recognize at some traffic lights, are they gonna come over and give you a hug and say, thank you very much. I love the way you portrayed us, and you know, the the the police of Long Beach are delighted you made this show, or are they gonna sort of plant something in the back of your car and try and arrest you on something spurious because they all hate you? Um, I'm just interested to uh what Long Beach is. Really good question.

SPEAKER_03 48:05

I think first of all, they don't know who we are still.

SPEAKER_01 48:11

Um, you know, I I I think I I was just down at Long Beach. I just saw a concert at the convention center just a couple couple weeks ago, and I ran. There's a bunch of cops there, and I walked up to them and asked them about the show. I think the cops love it. I don't think the politicians down there like it. I think the cops love it because we actually we actually showed a side of policing that not a lot of the media is is wanting to show at this stage, man, which you know, um, but I don't think the politicians like it very much.

unknown 48:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:39

I mean, honestly, I think the side of that we showed of policing wasn't political in in any capacity, it was the humanity of it, right? It's giving an insight into the people behind the badge. And what Tim and I would always say in the room is that, you know, we're not pro or anti-police, we're pro-character, and our characters happen to be cops. And I actually think what's so interesting about the dynamics within West Division is the fact that all of our cops are pro-justice, and all of them genuinely believe that they're doing the right thing. There's no antagonist in uh the ensemble, and how they see doing the right thing can differ to the point of drama, which is which is great as a storyteller. Um, but we never tried to message with this show. I think our fondest hope is that we can set the table for conversation where two people watching the show together can come away with different points of view on the same issue and have a conversation about it.

SPEAKER_00 49:49

Yeah, so thanks for that. It's a great answer. Um, I drive past Long Beach nearly every day, so I think next time I see a policeman, I'm gonna pull over and ask them what they think of the show, and I'll I'll feed it back to you. Um, so look, um final question. Um we ask every guest this question, um, which is if you could give a single piece of advice to somebody wanting to enter the industry, what would that single piece of advice be? And I'll I'll start with you, Elliot, if I may.

SPEAKER_03 50:19

Uh perseverance, uh just keep going. I think that uh inevitably uh you are going to be told no, uh to the point that at some point you'll feel like you want to quit. And I think those who find success are the people who are able to keep pushing through. Genuinely. I got told no so many times when initially pitching this idea, whether it be uh you know, from friends and and folks who are like there's too many of them to networks themselves, but just gotta believe in the vision and keep pushing in any way that you can. Just keep pushing uphill.

SPEAKER_01 50:59

Thank you. Yeah, I would say uh put the work in. You know, start treating yourself like and this like you're an athlete, you know, like you're in training, you know, do all the things you need to do to continuously be a better writer. But put the work in. You'd be surprised. You'd you'd be surprised how many people don't do that. But put the work in.

SPEAKER_00 51:21

Very good. Look, uh, Elliot Wolfe uh and uh Timothy Walsh, thank you very much indeed for coming on our show. Like now, I've um I haven't binged it all, but I've watched some of it, and it's uh it's a great show. Um and uh it's fascinating the way, as you say, you've moved from you've taken a procedural but turned it into something else and something new and something different. So it's great. So thank you very much, both of you, for coming on the show and being so honest about the industry. It was a real pleasure, man. Thank you for having us.

SPEAKER_03 51:49

Appreciate you guys having us.

SPEAKER_01 51:51

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_04 51:52

Okay, take care. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you, Game Watch, for the music. And our wives for putting up with our comments today. As always, each episode is brought to you by Scriptation, my favorite screenwriting annotation software. If you want to support the show, please download a copy at www.scriptation.com backslash.

SPEAKER_00 52:18

Or perhaps even better, www.scriptation.com backslash Dan. Dan is called NOH.

SPEAKER_04 52:28

If you want to find me on social media, I'm at Twitter at n Epsilon and more recently on threads at noepslin.

SPEAKER_00 52:38

Don't worry about me on social media, because all you people seem to care about another anyway.