Take 67 - Writer, producer Tze Chun, Secrets of the Mogwai, Gotham

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for shore, dozens of unproduced scripts littering the floor.

SPEAKER_03 0:13

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

For every subject, there is most, sometimes even years, of painful failure. This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default.

SPEAKER_03 0:31

That's the path to be able to force your people.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

That process takes place, that does an hour overnight. I was being told by my manager it's yours to lose. And I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking like, well, that's it for me. I blew my one big shot. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one big shot. There won't be other shots.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. I am as ever your British non-entertainment co-host, Dan Rutstein.

SPEAKER_03 1:10

And I am your industry co-host, Noah Epslin. Today I'm delighted to introduce TV writer, director, showrunner, and producer Zee Chun. Zee has worked and directed the feat, has wrote and directed the features Cold Comes The Night and Children of Invention. As a TV writer, he's worked on such shows as Cashmere Mafia, Once Upon a Time, Gotham, Little America. More recently, he was the showrunner of Gremlin's Secrets of the Mogwai and the EP co-showrunner of I'm a Virgo. Welcome, Z.

SPEAKER_04 1:39

Hey, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

So it's great to have you all. Now I turned up a few minutes late and kept you waiting, which is very rude of me. And therefore, for the first question, rather than me asking you some difficult question about religion failure, you can choose the first question. So would you like a question about a chance to talk about one of your successes? Um, would you like a chance to talk about um why you enjoy this podcast, or would you like a chance to talk about one of your failures? You get to so choose your own adventure podcast.

SPEAKER_04 2:13

Well, you know, I think I mean I'd love to talk a little bit about the podcast because I do think that hearing about people's rejections and failures, I think is super helpful. And I I kind of, you know, I came up at a time where there wasn't really the internet. And so you were just reading about stuff in magazines and seeing stuff on TV. And even in the indie film world, it was all kind of like you only really read about the successes. And it does feel like a more recent thing that um people have really been open about sharing all the struggles that they've had, getting to where they want to be. And um, I think that's really important. I think it's really cool that you guys are doing this.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

So actually, I'm gonna ask a question because we're we're we think we know who our audience are. So I should say, first of all, thank you. Um we love doing this and we love the fact that people enjoy what we're doing and get something from it. But we think we know our audience, and we think it's probably 60, 70% aspiring writers. Um, but we also know some of our audience are very successful people who then end up being guests. But some people listen to the podcast that have been invited on, and that's the you know, that's the right way to prepare for these things. But we know we have actually some very serious, very senior people who are regular listeners to this. Um what do you get? I'm sorry, this is not about you complimenting us. This is actually to understand it. Even somebody like yourself, obviously, lots of credits, very senior, very successful industry. When you're listening to other people at your level, either just below or just above, talking about some of the things they go through, even where you are, do you still find that valuable to sort of validate maybe when you've had a bad day and so on?

SPEAKER_04 4:00

Absolutely. And I also think, you know, I'm always talking to um people who are trying to break into the industry. And I do think it's, you know, the industry is really interesting in that every part of the industry is very different and kind of siloed, whether that's live action, animation, half-hour, hour, TV, film, you know, all those different areas of the industry kind of have their own peculiarities and um distinct ways that people have failed and succeeded. And, you know, those, even within those silos, there's so many, I mean, as I'm sure you guys know, there's so many ways to succeed, and there's so many ways to fail. That I find that even anecdotal evidence of failure in a certain way can, you know, help me have a better understanding of not just my context of what it was like to make my way up in the film and TV industry, but also potential landmines that might happen moving forward. But also, you know, it's very helpful if I'm talking to a younger creator, somebody who's trying to break in as a staff writer, you know, to not just have uh have my own, you know, landmines that I walked into, but other people's just so that I know that you know something is possible. Somebody asks me a question, you know, sometimes hearing somebody who's gone through it explain the specifics about a situation is super helpful.

SPEAKER_03 5:32

You you don't know this, and Dan probably doesn't know this either, but I, you know, you were uh one of the inspirations for this podcast to begin with, because I've been following you on social media for years. I watched how open you were, and when we began to sort of decide whether or not we were going to do this, we needed to know if people were gonna come on and share their stories. And we had no idea because we come from a world in which we go to general meetings and pitches and we put the best version of ourselves forward. And it's like, well, any anybody out there really want to start talking about how hard this business is. And I noticed a handful of people online who had successful careers who were willing to share openly, uh, you know, myself included, that oh this is going bad or this is this is you know not the way it's going the way we want it to, and and sharing a little bit of tidbit of that online to just say, hey, you're not alone. It's it's hard for everybody. This is a very hard business. And you know, so I've been wanting you on for like a year, and I'm really glad that you made time to come on. But I I want to go back to you know, your social media persona. At some point, you made a decision to be open and transparent and supportive. Was that a conscious decision, or was that more just who you are and that was and the social your social media is a reflection of of your true being, or was there sort of intent behind you know some of those posts?

SPEAKER_04 6:49

You know, I think that for me it was just a general feeling at a certain point, maybe started about four or five years ago, where I really felt lucky to be where I was. And I also, because the years when I was starting out were so difficult, and I really had no context for such a long time if I was succeeding or failing or treading water or just doing the wrong thing over and over again, I so vividly remember the feeling of being outside of the industry and not even have a having a context of like how I would possibly even get the first inkling of my foot in the door. And I remember how painful that was. And it was a pain that, like, as somebody who's breaking into the industry without contacts in the industry and without knowing anyone in the industry, it's painful and it can be painful for years. And I know that there's people who have been dealing with it for decades. And I think that there was just the feeling that if I was so lucky to have broken into the industry and knowing what that pain felt like, if I could alleviate any of that pain for anybody else, that it was it wasn't necessarily my responsibility to do so, but it certainly felt like if I could do something, why not do it? And certainly the first couple of times I posted something very personal about rejection or you know, times that were really tough for me, there was always the feeling like, oh my God, I'm gonna delete this like in 90 seconds, if somebody says something mean. Because like, you know, it's it's scary. It's you're interacting with a lot of people that you don't really know. But I after the last, you know, four or five years of of being very vocal online, like I do feel like I know a lot of the people who I've interacted with, you know, Noah, you included, you know, I think that as you know, a voice of somebody who is very like human, you know, in the entertainment industry, I think that's really important for people starting out. So it's not just a bunch of concrete walls in front of you.

SPEAKER_03 9:02

Yeah, I I I totally agree. And, you know, while you were talking and you're talking about you know some of the hard times that you went through. And obviously, this is a podcast focused on rejection, failure, and adversity. Going into whatever level of specificity that you're comfortable with, what do you think has been the hardest part of your journey, sort of into where you are now?

SPEAKER_04 9:23

I think it was that time after college where, and even during college, but especially after college, where I just didn't know how to, I was in New York. Um, I wanted to break into independent film. And I didn't know how to do it, you know, and I had to kind of force myself to create a theoretical pattern of behavior that could possibly help me break into the industry. And during that time, basically I didn't really have the money to go to grad school. And I also felt like, wow, that's a long time that just you know before I could even start my career. You know, it could be three years, four years. And so I just made a schedule for myself. I made a no-budget short film every six months, and I wrote a feature film every nine months. At the time, I was painting portraits and like dating myself, but like authoring DVDs as like a source of income. And I just made 12 shorts before one got into Sundance. So it took about three and a half years, but it was really relentless. You know, it was like every day thinking about how am I going to put these short films together? How do I rope my friends into working on them? Can I borrow a camera? Where do I get the sound equipment? Like really like nuts and bolts stuff. And, you know, and I've talked about this online, you know, I did 12 shorts, and you know, 11 of them got rejected from every single film festival that I submitted them to. And this is when uh film festival rejections were still like mailed to you in the mail. And so I remember going to my like shitty apartment in Brooklyn and opening up the mailbox, and sometimes there were like two or three rejections, like sitting on top of each other. And during that time it was really tough because, and I I really vividly remember waking up in the middle of the night, almost every night, just thinking, like, how do I do this? What am I doing wrong? Why is nothing happening? I feel like I can do this, but everything in the world is telling me that I can't. And those years were really, really hard. Those are definitely the hardest years.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

I think the obvious question to ask now is how close did you get to giving up?

SPEAKER_04 11:41

You know, unfortunately, I'm really stubborn. And so I think that there was never a point, you know, it was never a point where I thought, well, I'm going to give up. It was really a question of am I going to go insane before I succeed in any way? And how painful is it going to be? And how long is this pain going to go on for? And you know, in some ways it was almost like I was trapped. Like I knew that I wasn't going to give up, but I was like, what if this goes on for like 10 years? That's going to be terrible.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

I guess here's a question. Uh at what point did you realize that you had succeeded? Or do you still, in a very right away, not even think that yet, even though it's obvious that you have?

SPEAKER_04 12:35

You know, I think that it's always a moving target. And you know, I did those 12 shorts, 11 of them were rejected from every single film festival. And then my 12th short, Window Breaker, I made it for $600, shot at my child at home, my mom starred in it. That was rejected for 25 film festivals, and then it got into Sundance. And I remember that feeling of like, wow, like things are gonna be happening now. And it kind of did, and it kind of didn't, you know. It it I I it was my first time meeting people in the film industry. But it was something I had been working, everything I'd done was working towards that point, and then we had achieved it. And then it was like, what is the next thing? I need to make a feature that goes to Sundance, and then I did that, and then it was like, Well, okay, I need to make a second feature, and then I did that. But it would never it never really felt like I had succeeded because there was a certain feeling in me that only recently has gone away. And I've been thinking about this a lot, and I'm really glad that you asked the question. Because I think it's also a question of like how do you define success? And for the longest time I had individual goals for what success was, and then when I achieved those goals, it would always feel like it wasn't really enough. And I do feel like a lot of it had to be had to, I mean, and I'm being very honest with you guys, like there was like a competitiveness in me that I I have had since I was very young. And to some degree, over the last two, three years, like I think that's really gone away. And that was incredibly freeing to me because I felt like all of a sudden I wasn't jealous of the things that other people were doing. I was just really happy about the things I was able to do. And that to me, that to me has been the best feeling of the last you know, 20 years as I've started in this industry.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

Knowing now how it works, probably knowing more about how other people got to the level that you're at, and and higher, or not quite as high, what would you have done differently, if anything, to get to where you've got now?

SPEAKER_04 14:59

You know, one of the things I talk to people who are trying to break into the industry about is not beating themselves up so much about individual rejections and failures. I think a lot of people see a pathway to success or they see successful people and they think, oh, they made like two or three big decisions that got them to where they are. And I don't really think that's the case. I think that people who are successful and people who are become really good at what they do and become successful doing that, it's more that they make a hundred small decisions every day that contribute to an overall pattern of getting better at what you do and and making choices that put you in this place where all of a sudden when something an opportunity does come, you're ready for it. And I wish that during the times where I look back and I'm like, wow, that kid decided to do a short every six months and write a feature film every nine months. I wish I could go back and tell that kid, like, no matter what happens, like you're gonna get better at doing what you're doing. So don't worry as much about you got rejected from the Hodunk International Film Festival, like, and that one hurt. Like it's okay. You're gonna like get better and better, and maybe you're not gonna achieve exactly what you want to achieve, but at least you know that you're making progress. At that time, I just didn't know that I was making any progress. I didn't know that my shorts were getting better. Um, it was only in hindsight that I was like, oh, there's a reason why the 12th one got into Sundance and none of the none of the other ones did. Because I made some really bad shorts. You know, there were, you know, it's when you're starting out, not everything that you do is gonna be great.

SPEAKER_03 16:52

I have like 85 questions, but I'm gonna limit myself to to obviously to one of them. Uh, as I'm listening to all of this and sort of really empathizing with, you know, and and and and hearing your story reflected in so many of our stories of not giving up and being competitive with who? Yourself? Who are you competitive with? But you're not giving up, you're killing yourself for for you're quite not you're not quite sure what. But I'm asking this is gonna be a very sort of practical sort of career question, just that I'm curious about that you did all these shorts and then you did two feature films as uh and then you uh, you know, a lot of people might have stayed on that track and done a slightly bigger, you know, more more feature films. And obviously, it's all every feature film you make is there no one's giving you very few people are giving a lot of people a lot of money to make films. So each one is very difficult to make. So, but you switched to becoming a TV writer, you know, as like, was that was there was there serendipity involved? Was there the universe speaking to you? Was there agents? Was it a conscious decision to just say, all right, I did that, now I want to do this? Because some people think it's sort of quite easy to move between the two genres. And the reality is it's they're they're very bifurcated. So and they can't be. And so it's almost like you started on another ladder again, and then you climb that ladder.

SPEAKER_04 18:03

Yes, and I I certainly started at the bottom of the TV ladder again when I started in TV. But yeah, no, I I think that it was a conscious decision. And um so I had my first feature at Sundance, and um I'm gonna try to answer this in a short way, but I think these details are kind of important. So um I had my first feature at Sundance, it was like a dream. You know, I was like, this is what I've wanted to do since I was a teenager, and I started getting invited to a thing called the New York Director's Dinner. And it was at um directors' houses, and it was a place where I met a lot of really cool directors, people I really looked up to, you know, when I was starting out wanting to become an independent film director. And one of the things they did at every dinner was to talk about what they were working on at that moment, and as they went around the room, you know, I was like, you know, starry-eyed. But what I realized was that almost nobody could make a living in independent film. And it was a real awakening for me because this career path and this career goal that I'd wanted since I was a teenager actually didn't exist. It was that independent filmmakers, for the most part, I mean, like 99% of the time, had to have some other job to supplement their income. And so that was a huge wake-up call for me. And a little bit later, um, my wife, and I was waiting for Cold Comes Tonight, my second feature, to get greenlit. Um, my wife told me she was pregnant. And I had a sense that something interesting was happening in TV. And I had worked in TV with a writing partner for about six months in 2007 after my short on the show Kashmir Mafia. And even between 2012 and 2007, when I moved back out to LA, TV had changed a lot. The landscape of TV had changed a lot. And whether or not I could have articulated it at the time, it felt like there was so much interesting stuff happening at TV. I kind of felt like I could kill two birds with one stone. I could make a living writing for television and be in on the ground floor something that was um an expanding industry as opposed to a contracting one. And then beyond that, you know, I grew up watching the movies of like studio film directors like John Ford. And it was like, that's a guy who sometimes would direct three or four movies a year. And I looked at what was possible in the indie landscape, and I was like, how good am I gonna be? How much better can I get if all I do is direct a movie every four years? And it was true. I when I went to my second feature and got to set, like I was really nervous. And that nervous was almost nervousness was almost crippling because I hadn't done it in four years and so much was writing on it, as opposed to going into a writer's room every day, learning from people who are really great. I mean, knowing you know, like really great at their craft, like incredible. And it's almost it was it was amazing to just be working every single day and getting better, knowing that I was getting to become a better writer every day in the writer's rooms.

SPEAKER_03 21:32

And so it, you know, it seems like you took the TV directory, and thank you for that candidate, that the candidate answer, but you took that TV directory and you worked in a number of shows in the TV world, and you worked your way up, you know, slowly and successfully up to Showrunner where you are now. And you talked about being sort of crippled by anxiety uh when you did your second feature. So now you have the equivalent amount of and maybe even more um responsibility on your shoulders when you start to become showrunner where you are now. Did you able to were you more ready after this, you know, number of years of, I'm not going to call it apprenticeship, but basically it is in a weird way. You went up the ranks. You learned how to produce, you learned how to on the TV side, how to edit, how to cast, how to how that world works. And now you're showrunner did it feel like that you could keep that anxiety at bay or did or did the responsibility just create new anxiety?

SPEAKER_04 22:24

You know, as a showrunner now I feel very confident and relaxed whenever I walk into a room into any meeting and talking to anybody that that job you know has me cross paths with. And I think there was kind of again like a very nascent plan early on. So when I first moved out to LA um to LA, um you know I wanted to go out for staffing and I completely whiffed on it. I got one showrunner meeting I sat down and the showrunner was like um we're staffed up I have no idea why your agent set this meeting and it was I done like you know five days of research straight for this show. And then I sold my spec pilot that I wrote. And one thing I should say before I moved out to LA I didn't have my own sample from the time that I decided I was going to move out to LA I did the same thing I did with my shorts I made a schedule for myself in six months I wrote three pilots and you know two of those pilots never did anything for me. But one of them I sold after I moved to LA and I sold it to CBS Studios for CW. It was a very gritty reimagining of the Robin Hood mythology. It was kind of like Sam Peck and Paw's Robin Hood. And I had to do a page one rewrite on it because it was for the CW. So I had to add I had to CWFI it and I just wasn't really good at taking the notes. I'd come from indie film. I didn't know how to do it. And I could tell when I was doing the notes that the producers and everybody who were so supportive could like tell that I was like slowly failing over the course of like two months. And I remember I was working so hard on it I just couldn't do it. And they ended up picking another show they wanted a medieval show and they picked Rain um which you know I I I totally understand why they did it. And then I also looked at those showrunners and I was like those showrunners have 50 years of experience between them. They're so seasoned. You know of course they would pick that show because they're not just buying the show they're buying the experience of the showrunners and the ability for them to work with the studio network and to create something great. And so off of that failure of that show not getting ordered to pilot I um kind of naively but it ended up working said to myself like I want to staff I was always very patient but this was a time where I was really patient. I said I want to staff on a hundred episodes of television. That way the next time I do this next time I sell a pilot that I'm really excited about, I can confidently walk into the room and say I know how to do this. And then I did that we did a hundred episodes in five years between two years of Once Upon a Time and then three years of Gotham and it was something where you know the first three years of staffing were really tough for me. I really didn't know how to do it. And then really something changed and I can speak a little bit about that as well between the third and fourth year and I was very I was much more open and much more myself. And by the time I was done with those hundred episodes I felt very confident and I was able to walk into Warner Brothers and um you know pitch my take on gremlins without even really having prepared anything besides just something very small, knowing that I could build out a pitch in the room during the conversation. That's what I typically do now instead of like doing the standard pitch.

SPEAKER_01 26:00

Fascinating um that's quite a target to set oneself 100 episodes of TV but it's great though it's so methodical I mean you've obviously talked about the way you made your shorts I I love the sort of the maths or math as you say in America behind the process. So here's a question um what would you say you're good at now but what would you say you're still not yet good at or not great at you know it's always tough because very often I'll think I'm good at something and I won't be and um and vice versa.

SPEAKER_04 26:38

I do think that one of the tough things about coming up as a TV writer now is so many writers' rooms are wrapped by the time people start shooting. And so that onset experience is really kind of a a lost art. And I do hope that more studios and networks will keep writers on through the production process because it really is a helpful skill. And it was something that I had from the independent film world but also it grew you know my onset experience grew during Gotham where we were on set producing our episodes and I think right now especially through um I co-founded a comic book company called TKO Studios and I co-founded it with um a friend and mentor who's um my best friend's dad uh who has been a very successful businessman and entrepreneur. And one of the things he's really taught me um has been management of people and large groups of people. And I think that that was something that you know I was able to bring to one of my first showrunning gig um for Gremlin Secrets of the Mogwai. The management side of things is interesting because as you guys know every creative decision in this industry is also like a business and management decision. And every business and management decision is also a creative decision because it affects everything and you have to look at everything holistically because let's say someone's not happy once one of your department heads isn't happy it's like that shows up on screen. And it really that management skill uh between being in the rooms so much and also you know being president of of the comic book company and and having the mentorship of my friend was was super helpful as I stepped foot in the writers room of the first show I was showrunning.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

I want to talk about this for a bit because something we've talked about on this podcast, but I think it's been recognized in the industry as a massive failing is a lot of people aren't very good at managing people. They might come up with brilliant ideas for a show and become a showrunner and then suddenly they're in charge of you know two, three, four hundred people, but no one taught them how to be a manager how to be a leader. Well you know if you work on the studio side you've probably gone through a management training program and you know in other industries. So that's an interesting skill to have that is very much sought after. So what does that look like? So what sort of leader are you when you're leading given that you've obviously thought about your leadership style and your management style. So you're not just doing it you actually you understand the theory behind it. So I'd love to know like how what what three words would you use to describe yourself as a leader?

SPEAKER_04 29:29

I mean it's going to be unfortunately more than three words. So first one's probably wordy um I think that the overall goal of a showrunner is to make sure that everybody does their best work. And that means different things to different people but that is the prevailing goal I think that I have every time that I walk into either it's a writer's room or a meeting with um department heads. And different people need different things which is um why I think that a part of management is so much about empathy and seeing what that other person needs. And it's also about making people comfortable because people don't do their best work, I think, when they're stressed out when they're stressed out especially about things that are inconsequential to the show when they're stressed out about um politics in the writer's room these are all things that detract people from their job and politics in the writer's room or onset it detracts people from their job and it has no added value to what shows up on screen. And I think that that like level of comfort and setting expectations and making sure everybody knows exactly what they can expect going into something is really important. And it's um something I've thought a lot about and it's one of the reasons why on day one of um the two shows that I've you know showrunner co-showrunner even in the first interviews with people I typically tell them as much as I can and be as honest as possible about what their lives are going to be like hopefully you know when they come on board the show that includes not being secretive about like the hours you're gonna work you know I'm always like I can just give you guys the spiel but like you know I you know I want this to be like a very like like you know empathetic and kind room. You know the hours are going to be 10 to noon, two to four anything personal that you have to do like just ask it's totally fine. I spent so many years just like sitting there worried about asking about a day to go look at like preschools with my wife and that was so distracting for those days and I wasn't contributing to the room. So anything that you guys want to do that's personal like just ask it will always always be fine you know um and then I talked to them about what the structure of submitting material is going to be and especially this is a big one I always tell them that as a matter of course you know um I'll do a as a showrunner I'll do a pass on their outlines and scripts and that is in no way punitive it's just that every show has their specific voice and there's just going to be some work that has to happen that is just to align you know an outline or a script to the voice of the show and it's never a reflection of a of uh or or or a feeling of dissatisfaction for me.

SPEAKER_03 32:47

It's an expectation and you know you shouldn't feel like by being rewritten that's a reflection of your writing you know I love that I love the clarity and sometimes those are the those are the things that you wish the showrunner would talk about before you go into the room because often you have no idea is it going to be an eight to five job is it going to be an 8 to 2 a.m job is there you know even little things like lunch like but but I have a question um you know I've you know you mentioned your mentor you mentioned you know a couple of times during this during during this chat about uh how you told yourself certain key pieces of information about your career I want to do this I want to do this you're setting yourself up for success and or failure you didn't know but you were you were creating a plan for yourself and I've noticed from afar that at least you've attempted to boost for instance the API community I noticed that I saw that that 365 days of boosting someone a person a day an API creator every single day and I was watching you boost person after person I'm like 365 that's a lot that's amazing you know and just kind of watching you find these people to to celebrate talk to me a little bit about mentorship and the importance to it to you about bringing people up because you know were you would did someone help you come up was there did you have that absence and therefore you're trying to fill a void combination of both I I think it was a combination of both but when somebody did mentor me and take the time it was always what I found was there was such a I I I guess this um expenditure of energy is probably the wrong phrase but what I realized what were things that somebody who was either a mentor or somebody I looked up to might say something off the cuff when I was just starting out.

SPEAKER_04 34:38

And that would be a piece of wisdom that I would have never thought of in a million years. And sometimes it would change the whole course of you know what I what I was doing. I remember when I went to Sundance and I kind of offhanded asked um Peter Sollett who I had really looked up to I'm still friends with him and um his wife Eva Vives um who had a movie um Raising Victor Argus which I loved you know when I was coming up in Indie Film I was like I'm going to Sundance what do you suggest he goes oh just say yes to everything you never know where opportunities are going to come from and I did and so much stuff came from that and but it was just something that he just knew and he just said it and it was no expenditure of energy for him almost at all because it was just something he lived with but it was so big for me. And I think it's really valuable for people who have all this knowledge to impart it on other people who are starting out I also think that part of it is you know we need great writers you know with so many shows on TV there's really not enough great writers and just as like pushing the art form forward like you know you don't want writers who are starting out to be worried about all these things that don't really matter. You want them to be worried about the main things and how do they get better how do they take notes how do they make their scripts better how do they you know make the connections that they need to to to get into a writer's room like those are the things that really matter and there's so much that doesn't matter that I remember being worried about. So you know I think it's that's a roundabout way of just saying that I I do think mentorship is super important because you you know you want to help the people that you believe in and you know it's it's again like when you're starting to when you want to break into the industry that period of time can be really painful. So you know why not help somebody out during that time?

SPEAKER_03 36:38

Absolutely and I've sort of been inspired obviously watching you help not only a handful of people but many people get you know you know just visibility at the very least if not you know more help from behind the scenes. Unfortunately this is you know the time in the podcast where we're kind of we have to ask the last question otherwise we might keep interviewing you forever. But this is the question that we we ask every single person that comes on the podcast. If you could give one piece of advice to someone entering this business in your case either as a writer writer director uh what what would that be I think the most important thing for a writer who is entering the industry is to know that you're gonna have allies you're gonna have people who are proponents of yours but really at the end of the day it's gonna be you that drives most of everything because you're the one who cares about your career and your work the most and it's something that every time I've forgotten it and become complacent I've suffered for it.

SPEAKER_04 37:51

And I think that people don't realize that you know there are there are people who are going to be your allies who are great your agents your managers your lawyers but as even as somebody who's starting to break into the industry I think you should really understand how much um your drive determines your pathway forward and not take anything for granted. I think that's I think that that is the was the hardest thing to learn because I always thought that you know when I moved up a certain level or got to that next thing that things would become easier. And it doesn't really happen that way. It's more like if you get a great credit like you have to use that credit and talk to people about um who who you are and get them to pay attention. And the other thing I'll say is that as you're starting to break into the industry it'll always feel like you are less qualified than everybody else. And what you have to figure out is what makes you different special and what your life experience has created in terms of your skill set that makes you really unique. And if you have that's something you can talk about and it might not happen on the first meeting or even the 10th meeting but there are there will be people who are looking for that particular skill set. And so I think you know being driven and pushing stuff forward and knowing that you're gonna have to do that yourself but also figuring out you know what your differentiators are and what you know you can really use to show that you are different than other people who are trying to get the same position.

SPEAKER_01 39:54

Fantastic answer. So look Zun both an inspiration for the podcast and inspirational on the podcast thank you very much for joining us today.

SPEAKER_04 40:06

Thank you guys this was so fun. Thank you Z.

SPEAKER_03 40:14

And that's a wrap on this episode of Screaming into the Hollywood Abyss. As always we want to thank James Launch for the amazing theme music. Do you before we sort of thank our wives and stuff do you think anyone actually listens this far or do they stop when the music comes back in I think they normally stop after you mention your second and third podcast that'd be my guess I haven't mentioned them yet on that one. If you do want to reach out with us to us for criticisms, complaints or praise, uh you can either reach out to us through the website or I am at nebslin on Twitter and Dan, do you have an account?

SPEAKER_01 40:49

Not that anyone really cares about so if you've got complaints about the show go to NEBslin and feel free to air those. If you have praise or you want to pay us in some way for something come to at Dan Rotstein and have a great day