Take 138 - Showrunner, Writer Sally Bradford Mckenna, Will & Grace, Laid

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for sure, dozens of unproduced scripts littering the floor.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_04 0:20

For every success, there is most, sometimes even years, of painful failure.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default. That's the norm. You have to be able to first reveal. Unlike everything in our business, your hands get out. It all bounces off you. That process that doesn't happen overnight.

SPEAKER_03 0:43

I was being told by my manager it's yours to lose. And I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking like, well, that's it for me. I blew my one big shot. What I've realized for that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_04 1:11

Brought to you by the Emmy Award-winning annotation software Scriptation. As ever, I am Dan Rutstein, your non-entertainment co-host.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

And I am your still in the entertainment business, co-host Noah Abslin. Today I'm delighted to introduce TV writer, producer, and showrunner Sally Bradford McKenna to the podcast. Sally has worked on such shows as Will and Grace, Mr. Sunshine, Don't Trust the Bee in Apartment 23, The Goldbergs, and Ghosted, amongst many others. She's also the co-creator and co-showrunner of Lade, airing now on Peacock. Welcome, Sally.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Hello, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_04 1:51

Right, where do we start? So you have a long and impressive list of credits.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

List of failures, which makes me perfect for this podcast. As I said, when I heard podcast, I was like, no. But then I heard podcast about rejection and failure. And I was like, oh, okay, I'm in. That I can talk about.

SPEAKER_04 2:11

So so let look, you've obviously got you've got a new show that's out, which is very exciting, and we will definitely talk about. But um give me an example of uh a show that you didn't get to go to where you wanted it to. Give give me your sort of worked hard on an amazing concept and it didn't work for whatever crazy reason. Hollywood doesn't let you make things.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

That's tricky. I've had my my own kind of I've had my own experiences with shows that I've wanted to get off the ground. I've had a lot of experiences of other people's shows where I was part of the staff and we wanted it to become something and it and it didn't do that. So I've got, I mean, pick which kind of failure you want. You want something of my own development that didn't that didn't work?

SPEAKER_04 2:54

I guess failures fall into some different categories. There is uh very sad failures, there's probably maybe not the time, but looking back, funny failures. Um there are long failures, there are slow failures. Um do you have any funny failures? That would be appropriate for your career.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

Oh god, funny. I can tell you right away that I because I was thinking about this like, how do I how do I categorize my failures? And I don't have any, I don't have like a bad firing story. I've never, I want to say I've actually never been fired. Um, and I don't even know if that's true. When I look back, I'm like, there were times where I may have left something that I would have been asked to leave, you know, just things that aren't a good fit or whatever. But I don't have any embarrassing kind of like this is a disaster. I don't think I mean actually no. There's there's one, yeah, you know what? I've got a really this is funny. Um I did a show. I'm I'm gonna be so okay. I had done many, many shows from the beginning of like other people's shows, being on staff, wanting to get my own thing. I've been doing this for 25 years. And from the beginning, it's always been I do at some point want to do my own show. And I've tried and tried and tried and failed, and I have never even got a pilot actually filmed. Um, so now with this current thing that I have laid on Peacock, um, it is kind of the culmination of all of these failures. But there was one in particular, there was a show in particular that was really uh not like it, it was tough, and then it was like, this isn't funny, tough. And then it started, it was so tough that it started to get funny. And it's like, this is actually a crazy, I mean, I've been in many crazy situations, but this one may have been the craziest. Um, and it's the kind of thing of like, you know, it's tough when you're working with someone who doesn't have a vision for the show. Um, it's tough when you are that person who doesn't have the vision for the show. The toughest I have found is being in the middle of some version of that. Either you're coming in to fix a mess, which I've done, then you do that well enough, you become known as the person, usually the woman, who's good at cleaning up the mess. So then you get, we've got another mess over here. Can you come do this one? Um, and I think anytime you're stuck in between I say visions, but just any kind of direction for the show, anytime you're kind of guessing what you're supposed to be doing based on there's one boss over here and there's another boss over here, whether it's the showrunner or the network or two showrunner partners, anytime you're stuck in the middle, that is the hardest. And that's the one I feel like where opportunities really get lost. Because it's like things, if you try a pure version of something and it fails, great. But to just not even fully execute a vision of something because of politics and because of confusion, um, that's always kind of depressing, I think. You never really see something through.

SPEAKER_04 5:48

The the sort of sorting out mess thing, obviously normally I think I'm not in the industry, but my understanding of this is normally the mess cleaner-upper is brought in by the network to then help the showrunner, um, rather than the showrunner saying, I think I'm in a mess here and I need someone to help me. So how could obviously I've only known you for about six minutes, um, but you seem very nice. Um how how are you at the when you're brought in by a network to help a showrunner, the showrunner obviously knows that's why you're here. How how do you do that like first conversation? Um, to say, hi, I'm here to save you.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

Like, what's your Yeah, oh, and definitely not saying like if you're expecting me to come and save you, I mean, you're already in such a mess if I'm coming in. Like it's it's already there. And really, I think when the network says we're gonna put this person on there, they're not saying they're not giving you a clear direction of what to do. They're just going, we've put this person there. So we've handled it. We made a good decision by putting this very well-liked co-EP from over here. She gets along with everyone, and it's kind of like they that's they've done their part, and then you're there to go, what's happening here? Who's not speaking? Why is that door closed? Um, so I've had the two situations I'm thinking of that are similar to this is one time I was on a show that internally was a mess. Um, and I really actually very much liked the show creatively, and I liked the staff. Um, but it was really, you know, the the creators weren't actually running it, and they had this person running it, but they threw him under the bus and brought in someone else to kind of come and clean it up. And that person a lot of times gets blamed. Like I think that person did get, you know, like, you know, you're not the answer either. So we don't really, it's we don't want someone supervising us. We know how to do our own show. And I think in that environment, I kind of came up as like a default, kind of like she's um, she'll she'll help us do what we want to do without getting in the way. Like, I'm not there to take it. I think there's an ego thing. I'm not there to like take anyone's show away from them. So I think it was it's kind of seen as I'm there to help. How can I be supportive? How can I chime in here? But I'm not gonna actually. So anyway, I feel like I helped on on staff of a show like that. And because I felt like I had a, you know, it it went well, it didn't go well, but I felt like I helped somewhat. They then put me on another thing. And this was when I was on an overall at a at a studio, and they put me on another thing that was a bigger mess. I mean, this was really a real mess of like two, three, three people fighting. Two of them had been partners, one had been kind of asked to leave. And don't leave the show. Like you're not fired. You can still be in your writer's room, but you no longer run your show. You're no longer the showrunner. That was a tough one. I will say that went very smoothly at first. I feel like I went in. This was two partners where I loved them both, loved them both, both great guys. And for whatever reason, um, and there was a director in the mix too, and it was just kind of three people, and also with a big producer, with more guys kind of chiming in and fighting. Um, and it just wasn't, it was just sort of like who is who is like guiding this ship? What is the show? And it also was kind of a higher concept show where it's like hopefully someone really knows what this, what the best version of this is supposed to be. Um, so I feel like I came in and I did what I could to kind of like, I don't know, just sort of keep the day-to-day going. Um, but it also was a disaster. I mean, it also was, and it's like with all those things, you look back and you go, what could I have done differently? A lot of times it's I shouldn't have done that, I shouldn't have taken that job. But in the moment, you know, you go, this is a great opportunity with this person and this producer and these actors and this great writing staff. And you got to kind of try. Um, but I would just, I always just wanted to fail like on my own. Like I just want to fail. I don't want to fail with someone else's idea. Because I I'm just the best version of that is me executing what you want to do for a show. And I would rather try and do my own thing and then fail and then come talk to you guys about it.

SPEAKER_02 9:50

So it feels like we started sort of in media res where I should do like, and now three days earlier, because we started right in Dan started hot on this podcast. We're right into your failures right away. But I want to, I wanna, we're gonna get back to this, and I want to get back to the concept of you failing on your own terms. Uh yeah, because I think not to say that you're failing.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

That's where we are today. So yes.

SPEAKER_02 10:08

But you won't be you are you've created a show with a 93% Rotten Tomato score, so that doesn't sound like failure to me, which is airing on Peacock. We'll do a little plug for it. But let's let's back up three days earlier, in this case, 25 years earlier. Like, so I know I I I don't know if our audience knows, but I know you know Hollywood history and Hollywood history often will talk about how comedy rooms in the 90s for women were really difficult, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:32

And in my imagination, in my time I say 90s, by the way, it's tough.

SPEAKER_02 10:37

It's a tough word. It's like I imagine doors closing, uh basically madmen with coke and whiskey and and very few women in the room and all kinds of bad behavior. And then these, you know, amazing shows came out of that that environment, but they were often and could be toxic for the people working on them. Now, I don't I didn't work in that era, I didn't work on that type of show. So I don't know for sure, but set the groundwork for me for Sally Bradford McKenna as a young writer wanting to enter this world. What was your first sort of big sort of entree into the world of comedy? And what what like what was your parents thinking? What were you thinking? How did you prepare your sort of how did you armor yourself for a world that was notoriously difficult?

SPEAKER_00 11:22

Yeah. Um, I'm gonna even back up from even before where you started. Um, my dad was a was a comedy writer, and so that's gonna, I feel like that's gonna factor into a lot of this. He had been a writer, he was someone who um had a lot, he was head writer for Johnny Carson on the Tonight Show, and he was someone who had like a great credit, early, huge job. And it was just that was the biggest thing. And I think he even left that position to kind of like, I'm gonna go do my own things and do pilots and do movies. And he did do some of that, but it really was like he walked away from the biggest thing of his career. And all I know as a kid growing up in the entertainment industry was just houses that were getting smaller and smaller and just more north of Ventura. North? Yeah, north of Ventura. Um, so I, you know, kind of came in going, this is already a tough industry to break into. And I really didn't know. I think growing up in LA, I I kind of I knew I wanted to be a part of the industry. I didn't know in what capacity. I definitely don't think I knew I wanted to be a writer. I definitely don't think I would have known like comedy writer. Um, but I went to college, I went to Oberlin, and I think somewhere in there, I was sort of just kind of like, I guess creative writing, something. And my dad had been talking about Hollywood, namely the word Carson, just for my entire life. And it just never meant anything to me in terms of what I'm gonna do. Um, I remember in college my friend Hannah dragging me to a thing. It was Jimmy Burroughs who was coming to speak. He had gone to Oberlin and he was coming to speak, and she dragged me to it. I didn't want to go to anything, but she dragged me to that. And I remember something about, I think Friends was on at that point, and I was already kind of, it was like 90s, you know, like NBC sitcom, heyday stuff starting. And so I was, I was drawn to it. I loved it, I loved watching it. And something about him being there and hearing him, and even just Jimmy's um demeanor of being very kind of laid back and not impressed with really anything. Something about it, I was like, it clicks. I remember calling my dad that night, you know, on that little shitty like dorm phone. And I was like, I know what I want to do. I want to be a writer, I want to go into TV writing after he had been talking about it for, you know, 20 years. Um, so I decided that's what I was gonna do. I did um ask Jimmy because he'd gone to my college. Um, I did ask through him, you know, he kind of put me in touch with this assistant's assistant. And right when I graduated college, I did get very, very my start to this, you'll see it echoes my mirrors, my dad's, was I had success. I had my biggest success right away, right out of the gates. Didn't earn any of it. Um, because I I went through Jimmy's people trying to get a job. Like, can I just get an internship? Can I become a PA on something? And it was a summer where he was doing he was doing two pilots that year. One was Conrad Bloom with Mark Feuerstein and the great, late great Linda Lavin. And I knew her and I knew them. I'm like, that's great. I want to get on that one. And then the other pilot was Will and Grace. And it was like, I remember being like at 22, being a snob, like, who's doing that? Like, who are the actors? And like I didn't recognize their names. And I'm like, I don't know, this thing, and it's about gay friendship. What? Like, what's NBC doing? Like, I'm 22, like just brandly, like really just returning to the valley to be like, okay, let's get my start. And I'm being a snob already. Um, I knew I wanted Conrad Bloom. Conrad Bloom was full. They had no positions for me, but they did. I remember an AD, Dale White, calling me saying, We do have a position as an office PA on Wheel of Grace. And I was like, I really was kind of like, okay, I'll do it, I'll see. I don't know. I had already taken a job somewhere else where like I knew my commute, I knew where to get. I'd been there for two weeks. It was, you know what it was? It was, it was, I don't know how how how far back people were most, but it was it was called LA 411. It was like a directory, it was like an actual book, like a roster of like, we need lighting. So who do we? We need props. It was like a book of like entertainment resources. I'd been there for two weeks, knew where to get my coffee. I was like, I don't want, I can't lose this gig. But I had the PA um offer for Will and Grace. So I did that reluctantly. My mom was like, go, you're doing that now. Um, once I was there, I started seeing like, you know, I kind of want to be in this world. And I kind of, I was very, very drawn to the to the writing, writers' room and the writing. And I do remember my dad saying at one point, Sally, what like once I decided I wanted to do it, and I was like, I think I kind of could do this. Because I watch Friends, I'd be like, it's funny. And it's kind of thing where you listen to music and some and like you're like, I could I sing well along to this in the car. Like, I could do this. That's probably how I felt like friends, like I'm getting what the jokes are. So I could probably do this. I mean, really, that was my understanding of like, if I like friends, I might as well become a comedy writer. Um, I do remember my dad saying at one point, Well, Sally can't do that. Like, Sally can't be in that kind of room. And I think he said it with love. I think he said it with the I think he was saying it out of protection, but I think he was thinking back to those rooms. He had more experience in those rooms that you described, of more of a madman, certainly boys' club. And yes, I've definitely had experience in those in those environments too. But Will and Grace was different in in that way. Will and Grace, and thank God for it. I'm so grateful for it. I'm so grateful for every I was there for eight years. I was a PA, became a writer's assistant, um, became the script coordinator. I was in the room as soon as they would let me in the room. I would finish my job as a PA that day, and I'd say, can I please come over and listen to the writers for the rest of the day? Um, I just study them. I go home. I got, I didn't know how to type well somehow in college. You don't you don't have to do that then. So I was doing typing tutor. I was doing like a you know a program at home to learn how to become a writer's assistant. I was just like, I want to do that. I really want to do that. And and the room, so yeah, I worked all the way up there. I got a script in like I think maybe the fourth season, I got like an outside script, like a freelance script, and then I was on staff somewhere around there, four or five, and then and then through the end of it. And I was so lucky. I mean, I was so lucky because I learned so much. I learned what worked, I learned what didn't work, I learned a mostly by watching and by listening um quietly, very much so at the beginning. Um, and just learning what not to do and what not to say. Um, and interrupt me at any point here because I do feel like I'm taught.

SPEAKER_02 17:43

I don't like I have a follow-up question, but it's in this ballpark. So you can keep going or I can ask the follow-up question.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

Um ask the follow-up question. I don't want to hear you.

SPEAKER_02 17:51

I do want to say, by the way, I love that you say you had to sort of reteach yourself how to type because what people don't realize is a those early writing assistant jobs, and still today if there's a lot of typing, and in my first staff job, I don't think I ever told this on the podcast because you're often the one writing on the board, right? Because you're the staff writer. I had to relearn how to write, like handwriting. Like I had to go with a notebook and go A, A, A, A, B, B, because nobody knew how to read my handwriting. And I was the guy that was writing on the board, and that matters as much as any of my pitches. If they couldn't read what I was writing, I wasn't coming back. So, I mean, I think you have to like relearn. That's not my question. It just made me have a story. But my question is this okay, PA, you're listening, and then your office PA, and then you switch over to the writer's side, presumably, and then writer's assistant. Tell me about this breakdown that moment where you're learning that you're going from writer's assistant who had done a freelance to actually getting a staff job on that show.

SPEAKER_00 18:47

Yeah. Oh God, I'm gonna start like sweating. Um, because I do, whenever I think back to this time, I do like still feel like so much anxiety about it. It was, I will say it was the best place to kind of grow up and to spend my first eight years in the industry. I could not have learned more. Um, and I'm grateful to everyone there. It was a tough place. It was a tough place, and I don't think anyone would say otherwise. Um, it was definitely difficult. It was very much like, let's see what you can handle. Um, I don't want to say toxic, but but but yeah, aspects of it were definitely really, I wouldn't even say toxic. I would just say it was difficult. It was difficult to kind of um survive. And it really was, it felt a lot of like you learn what not to do by kind of it was like playing, it was like that game operation and trying to go in and get that one little pencil one, and you're just trying to get the thing out and you just can't hit the sides. And it's just a lot of learning like what not to do. Um, and that was a place where they would let you know, I think maybe in a good way, in a good way would let you know this is what not to do in writer's room. Um, I, you know, I think I was, I see it now with with, you know, I'm now I'm now in the position that the I think the oldest writers, when I started with Will and Grace, I'm now like at the the the age of the oldest one. And I so I'm now looking at like generations below me, seeing this kind of um what they call as like, you know, like an entitlement kind of thing that I really didn't think was true of my generation, but I do think I had a little bit of that when I first started. I just didn't, I had it was really a lack of knowledge. I didn't know certain things of what to do and what not to do. And I had my dad in my ear. And so I had, you know, a male, my dad who had gone through and had been burned by this industry, kind of like telling me what not to do and what to do. And so I think I I went in to some situations with a confidence that I certainly don't have now, and I don't think I had it then. But I think I just went in, for example, when when Will and Grace ended, um, and it was one of the last kind of like long-running um network comedies, you know, of multicams. Um, when it ended, it was like, what do I want to do next? Like what what I like had my choice of what, you know, do you want to go to the office? Like I had what I now would call an entitlement of like that's just not understanding how fucking hard it is to get ahead. Because I did, I feel like I did kind of get lucky right away and I did do a good enough job to survive there. And I did learn how to be a writer there, both in the room and on the page. I did learn all of that, but I think I still came out of there going, not not totally sure. Cause I had I had one job experience, I had one show experience, and it was eight years. And even the people I was working for had already been on several shows, shows that had gotten canceled, shows they created and got canceled. So they had already had ups and downs, and I had, I just came from college. So, but after that, it's when it gets real fun because then it's like, where do I want to go from here? What show do I want to do? And it just was a series of I don't know how many years or decades of like failure after, I mean, show that just didn't last, you know, season, one season, one season, 13 episodes, um, many of those in a row. I think one show I didn't. I came in for the second season of it. So that was in its second season, but I only came in late. One, we got two seasons, which was great. But really, what I've seen through all of it is you have the shows that you love, where you might love creatively the show you're doing, but not love the room or love the day-to-day. Or you have the jobs where you love the people, you love, but you don't love creatively what you're doing. Rarely do you get lucky with both. And I've a couple times had that. Um, this latest one being one example. And um, yeah, so there've been a couple of times where I've had both. Like I love the show, love the job, and it and it really does, I think, come from the head. It really is who's setting the tone here, who who are we following? Um, and yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:47

I don't want to ask a sort of lazy, how has comedy changed? You know, are you worried about getting cancelled sort of question? But equally, I sort of do, um, because it's an obvious question to ask someone in a comedy world, particularly like obviously your new show, there's uh there's sex and death and lots of things, which you could cross a line if you're not slightly careful. Uh when you were either setting the tone for the show at the beginning of the room, or uh as you're going through sort of breaking story and so on, how many times did you find something that uh would have worked in a room you know in 15 years ago, but now you probably can't make that joke and you steer away from that whole segment because you know you don't want to get stuck in a place you don't want to be in terms of either being cancelled or you know having HR issues with people in your room, even by trying to go down those those routes.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Totally. I've definitely, I mean, even as a yeah, as a female writer, I've had moments of we do have to, I do feel like I'm a little bit from the older generation these days. And when we're in when I've been in recent rooms, there are times where it's like this is something that we never would have, like I would just say it would never be a concern. And this is something I'm actually gonna hold back today because you don't know how someone's gonna react, or if it's gonna be taken, even not how you mean it, but in the wrong way. I met recently for coffee, one of the writers I'd worked with years and years ago, and we talked about an early room, and it was a, you know, it was one of those rooms where it was just such a totally different time. And we were just back and forth going, remember how we did this, remember how this was said, like things that were so deeply inappropriate. And that was part of it. I mean, that really was part of it. It was by design, it was an inappropriate workplace where crazy stuff was not only allowed, but encouraged. Um and it's just swung totally. I think it's, you know, in some ways it's it's swung too far. Um, but yeah, I mean, you ultimately what you want is a room where people feel feel comfortable and people people feel safe enough to kind of be themselves and do their best work. So it's it's kind of that middle ground of how can we be free enough to say everything we want and and because it's going to help us get to where we want to in the show, in the story, and also not offend people who are in the room.

SPEAKER_04 25:05

This is a question that only somebody who doesn't work in the industry would ask. Um, I feel like I would love to have I'd love to be in a in a comedy room. Um is it uh fun writing comedy? Or is it actually sort of I know it's a serious business, but like if we were in your room, is everyone laughing all the time when they come up with funny things to say, or is it like when Noah's working on his um sort of police procedurals where it's a very sort of serious storytelling? Like, is it is it fun writing comedy? I guess is my basic question.

SPEAKER_00 25:39

Yeah, I mean, compared to a drummer, I have to assume it's more fun. I'm it it really depends on the show, depends on the room, depends on what you're doing. I've definitely this current room that we're in, hilarious. Loved it, we have fun all the time. Yes, someone says something funny. This this room is a perfect example of people are there just to, we're just trying to elevate. So, yes, Anne, this person says something and then it gets better this way. Egos aside, best idea wins, and just just honing things, just getting things to their best place. Um, I've definitely been in rooms that are not fun because of um, you know, chaos or disarray or just, you know, disorganization. Um, and it can be serious, and you're like, and you'll be talking really seriously about something really stupid. Um, but yeah, I mean, it's hard work in terms of like, I do feel like sometimes we joke in the comedy world. We joke that we have to do a lot of what drama writers are doing. We have to arc stories out and and define characters, and we have to do a lot of that same work, but make it funny, which is what we think hard and and fun when you can do it and when you can be successful at it, um, and also do it in less time. So um, yeah, I don't know what I'm why I say that.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

And by the way, I'm nodding my you we're on a podcast, so people watching listening can't see me, but I'm like nodding, nodding, only because this is just my opinion, but comedy is way harder. And and and coming from a drama, like I thought I could write comedy early on, and then I realized how funny you need to be all the time. And I'm like, I'm only kind of funny, I'm not really funny. So therefore, I'll write drama that has a little comedy in it, as opposed to comedy that has both comedy and drama, because you need to have both to have a show, your kind of show work. But okay, my question for you, which is like, I'm you, you know, when I did your intro, I I skipped over a bunch of your credits. It was just like it would be the entire, you know, episode to read. You have a ton of experience. And yet you're saying, like, we're we're we're gonna we're now sort of moving into the laid part of this of this episode about like creating your own show and getting your own thing on the air. And and and you talked early on about how hard it was when someone didn't have a clear vision uh for their show. Now you've had 25 years of comedy experience and a father who was arguably you've been doing this your entire life. Did you come in? This is like Dan normally asks these leadership questions, but as a showrunner, did you come in with a really clear idea of how you wanted to run the room? And did you live up to your own expectations?

SPEAKER_00 28:10

Great question and a hard one to answer because, and I'll say from first of all, I didn't run this room alone. So that is a big thing. I will say I was at a huge advantage by co-sharerunning it and co-creating and co-developing the show based on a on a format, but also co-running the room for someone that I had worked for. So Nanashka Khan is my partner in Lade. And I'd worked for her before she created Fresh Off the Boat and Young Rock and she's done movies, Toby Killer. Um, she had created Don't Trust the Bee in apartment 23, and she was someone I knew. Um, my husband was also a writer, and and they had worked together. So I kind of knew her socially through him, and I loved her as a writer. Um, it was, I remember it was my wedding to Chris that she came to, um, where it was like we got married during staffing season, and I knew like, you know, I'm getting married on a Saturday. I know Monday I'm gonna be driving around with water bottles and little passes for different studio lots all through my car. And I knew that I was gonna be meeting on Notch, we call her Notcha's Notches Show, um, Dutch the B. And I read the script, I loved it so much. I wanted, I remember like at like walking down the aisle, being like, we need to talk because I love your show. And she's like, maybe just get married and we'll talk Monday. You're literally in a in a bridal gown. Um, so I did get that show and these characters, I love this world, I love the voice of the show, and I love the room. And we had a great staff. Um, and that was again two seasons, and such a great experience. But I learned so much from Notch in terms of how to run a room. Whether or not I can do it, certainly not as well as her, but anywhere near her, I that is remains to be seen. But I've definitely learned what works and how she moves through every decision of every day and how she does, how she does stuff in a way that I've never seen any other showrunner, male or female, be able to do. Um so I think I went in with a clear here's what I would do, but it's going, but what ended up happening was so much smoother because I was doing it with notch.

SPEAKER_02 30:04

We we we've had we've had um lots of, you know, we've was just Dan, 137 to 138. We're like we're pretty deep. And and I think of it, we're about 120 showrunners, uh, and then like 18 other people, just a variety of people in the industry. So we really have focused on showrunners, and one of the things that's been a common thread in the in our discussions is how hard the job is, one, how many of them uh have gone into therapy, and and none of them want anyone to, you know, to it's a dream job, but you know, and they have a hard time making people like, oh, whoa is me, my job is so hard. But it really is, and we've learned through all these discussions, and obviously I've been in the industry for a long time, it's one of the hardest jobs there is. So, can I can we talk a little bit about you you've risen to the top, um some of the you know, maybe the struggles you faced in the job, and but also where has the job sort of exceeded expectations and has it brought you joy? Because you after 25 years, you made it to the top of the mountain where you probably were gunning full time, and it's a long, long, long journey. So, talk about that like the the feelings you get now that you're at the top, and maybe some of the struggles you face.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

Um, at the top is so hard. I mean, yeah, I will say everything I've been doing for 25 years has been for this. I'm like, I just want to get a show, even if it's a co-creation, I want to get something of mine on TV. And I'm so lucky it it has, and I'm so grateful. It does feel at times like you get to the top. I'm joking and using air quotes, but like the top, even what is the top? I mean, also the top is Monday, you're the top, but Tuesday, no one fucking cares. Um, so it's it's all kind of, you know. I what I've learned this year in this last experience, especially, is just how much of being a showrunner it like it's just all encompassing and how it's just completely, and again, I was I doing this with training wheels, I'm doing this with notch, so I'm doing it not just with somebody else, but with someone who's like the best of the best. But I really got more of a sense on this project than any other, how much like writing, which I think of is 95% of television. When I'm watching TV, especially when watching comedy, I see the writing, I see the right, you know, I can hear the writer's room, I can hear the notes, I look at it that way. I look at it through the lens of like the writers. And this experience really to me was like that is definitely one third of the process. I mean, it is it is part of pre-production. Casting is a huge part, like all those things that development, five years we've been doing, we've been working on late. Um, so it was it was years and years of trying to set it up and trying to develop it and trying to get someone attached so that it could be, it was a cast contingent um series order, even understanding all those things, uh, putting a staff together and then the writer's room, which again could not have gone better with an amazing writing staff, could not say enough good about our writing staff. Um, but that was like two and a half months where we quickly um and in a very fun way uh broke eight episodes. And then you got to go shoot it. So then it's all a production. I mean, it's like all this that I know from having been a staff writer, you do see parts of this process, but knowing that like now you're just in the middle one, like all of this is still part of like what you're overseeing. Again, with a big help from my partner who knows what she's doing and has done this before. Um, but production, I I feel like when I get nervous about what are we doing, I haven't even done this before. I rely, kind of I kind of default to a writer. I think I kind of go back to dialogue or characters or what can I help here in terms of like, you know, just from the writing standpoint. Same with post-production. Um, I'm looking in terms of like what is the overall story we're telling here. But it still is like the writing, when the writing's done, and the writing's never done, but when the most of the writing is done, there is still so much more of the show. And then even completing it, then it's you know, promoting it and and and all this, and and then receiving and then how it's being received and going through that whole thing. So I've definitely seen in this last year, and this was a fast, this was a crazy year. Well, I think it was last Christmas that we were told we we had a green light. Um we had gotten Stephanie's shoe attached. Um, so I think it was last Christmas that they said green light it, but the one thing they said was the one thing we need is for it to be ready for the 2024 calendar year. And this was at Christmas. So we're like, okay, we got to put a room together fast, we gotta start. Um so we started the room, I think mid-January, from mid-January until, and then we we um uh our premiere day was December 13th. So during all during that year is when we did all the writers' room shooting in Vancouver, coming back and notch editing and doing posts and all that, and then promoting it. Um, on a sad note, just to bum everyone out. My dad did pass away on day three of the writers' room. Where I was like, this sucks. Like, I I mean to me, it was not lost on me the meaning of this. Like, I felt like so much of my career was like, I am doing this for my dad. Like on some level, I'm doing this because he's the guy who said I couldn't do it, you know. But on some level, I'm trying to do something that by the way, that he couldn't do. I remember after he passed away and I was on my way to Vancouver like the next day, and I was saying goodbye to my mom, and she reminded me like this is a big deal. Like getting a show on the air, even a co, even a co-show, um, is a big deal. And as she said, you know, it's something your father never did. And that is meaningful to me in a way. Um, just in terms of I think he would, I think he would have really enjoyed watching this last year, as I know my mom did. Um, and the truth is the last couple years he wouldn't have really been aware of what's going on. But I do remember him being like in hospice and me like trying to show him like a deadline article with like Stephanie Shoes, but like what he must think of what I'm saying. It just made no sense to him. Um, but so it it was kind of the timing of it was kind of perfect in a way, where I was able to, you know, I mean it was terrible. It was day three of the writers' room, but I was able to kind of just really focus. It was good that I was busy, it was good that I had something to really focus on. And then that that was the rest of the year, it was just throwing myself into the whole production process of it.

SPEAKER_04 36:06

Um, I'm gonna pay you a very specific compliment, and then I'm gonna ask you two more questions. Um you swear brilliantly. Oh thank you. So some people swear all the time, some people don't swear at all. My favorite swearing, I think you've sworn twice on this podcast. Um, it has much more meaning when you do it infrequently.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

And because you don't expect it.

SPEAKER_04 36:28

Very good swearing. I hope you use that at work as well within within the boundaries. Um anyway, sorry. Um, so the the actual question for me is you you alluded to this when you uh possibly half joking, maybe not half joking, said you know, you you're uh you're at the top on Monday and you could be fucking out of work on the Tuesday. Um the in terms you know, you've got a show on the air, it's great. You've I know you've only co-created it, but it's still not bad. Um are you genuinely worried this will be your one and only?

SPEAKER_00 37:01

Um oh for sure. I mean, right now we're we're you know, we're not even picked up for a second season. It's so hard. What succeeds these days? What is a success? I mean, it's clear when things really succeed. When you know what it is, it used to be like when things failed, like you were aware of those two. You were aware of the the Joey spin-offs, you were aware of things that didn't work. And now it's more like in a good way, if you don't hit it, you just kind of like you know, slip away into nothingness. But at the same time, I'm not saying I want to fail bigger than I currently am. I'm not saying that. But it's more like some things can just come and go. And our biggest fear, certainly with this and with any show, I think right now, would be my biggest fear is that we just you come out and it's like a week of you feel like people are talking about it, and then it just kind of disappears. Because after you've spent all this time and you've worked on something and it's you're happy with how it's turned out, and then it's received well, you know, it's getting good reviews, it just feels like, oh my God, we really did do what we could do here. And so much of this, so much of this industry is, but not everything is in your control. I mean, so many things are up to timing. It is, it is luck, it is, you know, who you know, it is all these other things that you can't control. So, really for me, I mean, for in any realm of life, I think it's you got to focus on what is it that I can do here, because some of this is just completely out of my hands.

SPEAKER_04 38:23

To that point, the I like asking the question about how people deal with success in the sense of celebrating it and so on. So, at the moment of your premiere, presumably you did a physical one somewhere. Um don't worry about us not getting invited, it's fine. At your at your at your premiere, you go to the premiere, you're you're dressed up, you're on the red carpet, you're doing all the interviews, it's all very exciting. Uh, how did that feel given you know your journey and obviously your father sadly passing away, you know, early, you know, before that moment. How how did that moment feel? Like talk me through the moment, but also like that night or next morning, in terms of sort of what do you do you buy yourself a present? Do you have a drink? What do you what do you do to really mark the occasion?

SPEAKER_00 39:08

Well, I'll tell you, I definitely didn't have a drink because the way I the way I dealt with early success when I was not ready for it and I was 22 and I was suddenly a hot shot was to have a drink, and that didn't work for me. So I'm now 18 years later not having drinks, and I will tell you the success is still very uncomfortable for me. Um and I'm constantly going, You're an imposter, and I'm constantly going, This is based on an Australian format, and I'm constantly going, you did this with someone who's a hit showrunner. Um, but I really tried on this one. I really, really tried to let some of it in and go enjoy some of this. This is a big deal. Like I know better than a lot of people how hard it is to get a show mate, to get a pilot shot, um, to get a show actually on the air, to have it be received pretty well. Um, so I tried to let it in. It is still deeply uncomfortable for me because I also know, like, you know, it it really could mean nothing in a week. Um, and being in a place right now where we don't know. I mean, it really is, I think it the key is always to, I think, be working on other things at all times. I see notch do that. She sets a great example of like be developing several things at once, only because you can do five things, maybe one thing goes. You do 12 things, maybe, maybe one of those things goes if you're lucky. Um, but I think for my own sanity, I need to be like working on several different things. So I don't, I'm not putting everything in in one basket.

SPEAKER_02 40:34

It sounds like we all need a notch in our life, by the way. And I do want to, Dan had a very specific compliment. I have a very different but specific compliment is that I mean, again, with the the you know, my experience in the industry, but also the amount of people we've interviewed, this is not a one-person job, the showrunner job. I mean, there's traditionally it it has been, but every sick every person that has been on our show that's been having a hard had a hard time was a one-person showrunner. And everyone who's like, oh my God, I like I couldn't have done it without so-and-so was a two two-person team. And it just sounds like, you know, it's an amazingly difficult job. And, you know, you still get all the credit in the world, not to say that you don't share credit with Notch, but for creating a show and it's always on your resume, and it's always, you know, it'll be on your uh, you know, when you when you pass away, someone will have mentioned that she co-created late. But uh speak, I mean, speaking, this is a terrible segue. Speaking of passing away, I have one more question about your uh your father. Yeah. Uh, did he ever get to tell you he was he was wrong for you not not wanting you to go into the business or he was proud of you or you did it? Like, what was those final conversations like?

SPEAKER_00 41:40

For sure. Those final conversations weren't anything that made any sense. But when our final conversations that did make sense, absolutely I knew he was proud of me. I completely know he would have been thrilled about this whole experience from like just the casting of it, how exciting it was. We're putting a room together, like I'm part of picking who who the writers we want. Um, we're writing scripts from going to Vancouver. It was like the first time I went on location. I had to move somewhere to film, all of it. I think I know he would have been deeply, deeply proud of me. And it was good to have my mom there who could kind of experience I know it was the kind of thing where she just kept feeling like, I wish your dad was here for a little bit longer. Um, I don't what he didn't say, he didn't say I'm sorry, or take back what he said, that I can't do that. Because I I think he was right at the time. I I know he was right at the time, but I almost want to think I almost want to say he was completely right. Like it was not a job that is that I'm built for. Um certainly like being able to just jump into a rowdy, loud, confident room of established writer, uh, comedy writers, I was not equipped for that. Um, and somehow I survived it and I learned a lot along the way, so I was able to keep going. But I'm really not naturally, there are different kinds of writers and different kinds of people who are good at comedy. Um, I'm not, I don't talk funny. I'm not funny to talk. I'm funny on the page. I've always been that way. I'm always more comfortable writing. Um, and I knew that joining a writer's room and getting, you know, finding those muscles was gonna be uncomfortable and still is. Um, but I did at some point along the way realize that I I can write in a funny way, I really can write funny, and I and I like my writing and I enjoy my writing. Um, so he was right that I was not built for this. But the other side of it is I'm not built to be a leader either. But you find a way, you find a way to get through it. I mean, it really is so much of it is problem solving and decision making and pivoting. Um, I definitely think it's a two-person job, at least. I could not have, I could not do season one of Lade without Notch. Notch can do anything without anyone, but it's the kind of thing when people work with her, it's like this wouldn't have happened without her. Um so yeah, but I am also very antsy to have my own, to try, to try. And if I fail, I fail on my own. Um, but I do that still is the dream. I still have that dream left is like to get something. Of my own, uh, produced and on whatever box we're watching things on.

SPEAKER_02 44:08

That's a fantastic answer to kind of sort of wrap this episode up in a bow for us, uh, with a lot of you know fantastic answers to our questions. But this does lead us to our final question that we ask every single person that comes on our podcast. And that is if you could give one piece of advice to somebody joining the industry as a screenwriter, TV writer, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 44:30

They're joining it now.

SPEAKER_02 44:32

They're joining it right now.

SPEAKER_00 44:34

Okay. I did have coffee with like an aspiring writer the other day, and I was like, oh man. I mean, it's tricky timing. It's tricky, it's a tricky time. But I also feel I look back to like 10, 15 years ago when I'd give advice, and it was hard, it's never, it's never a good time. But ultimately, we need stories, we need writing, we need art. It's always gonna be there, no matter what device we're watching on, no matter who owns what. It's also, by the way, a lot of this is the same. Like a lot of the streaming people that we're dealing with are the network people from five years ago. A lot of it is storytelling is the same. You've got a beginning, middle, and end, and it's got to be compelling, and you've got to grab your listener and and your viewer and and keep them engaged. So that I know is not going anywhere. Um, but I would just say, I mean, I guess advice in terms of being a writer, I feel like just keep doing it, keep doing, keep practicing your voice. One thing I wish I had done, because I went from show to show for so long. And it's a skill to have to learn like this is what this showrunner wants for his show, or this is what she wants. And it's a skill to learn how to do that voice. But I think your own voice, I mean, I would go back to, I kind of want to go back to like the first thing I wrote when I was 20, something, my first like spec, which when I hear like hear the idea of it, it's like absolutely something I would write today. I'm sure it's not well done, but I'm also sure that it's like the purest version of my writing and what I want to say with my writing. Um, I just wish I had spent more of this time, I think, working on that, as opposed to just how can I fit into this second season of this CBS show and give them what they want. Um, I think working on your own voice and your own work is um is really important.

SPEAKER_04 46:15

Look, um Sally Bradford McKenna, the uh kind of showrunner of uh Peacock's Lade and Future Solo Showrunner. Thank you very much indeed for coming on our show.

SPEAKER_00 46:28

Thank you guys so much for having me.

SPEAKER_02 46:30

Thank you so much. Thanks. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you, James Launch, for the music and our wives for putting up with our conflict. As always, each episode is brought to you by Scriptation, my favorite screenwriting annotation software. If you want to support the show, please download a copy at www.scriptation.com backslash Noah.

SPEAKER_04 46:53

Or perhaps even better, www.scriptation.com backslash Dan.

SPEAKER_02 46:59

Dan is spelled N-O-A-H. If you want to find me on social media, I'm at her at N Epsilon and more basically on threads at Noah Epsilon.

SPEAKER_04 47:12

Don't worry about me on social media because all you people seem to care about is that really.