Take 135 - Executive and Producer Sue Naegle, Day of the Jackal, Game of Thrones

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for shore, dozens of unproduced scripts littering the floor.

SPEAKER_04 0:13

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

For every subject, there is most, sometimes even years of painful failure.

SPEAKER_03 0:27

This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default. That's the normal path to be able to first be. That box is that does that work.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

I was being told by my manager it's yours to lose. And I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking like, well, that's it for me. I blew my one big shot. What I've realized with that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

As ever, I am Dan Rutstein, your non-entertainment co-host.

SPEAKER_04 1:24

And I am, well, as of this moment, still in the entertainment business, co-host Noah Epsman. For this week's podcast, I'm thrilled to introduce longtime producer and studio head Sue Nagel to the show. Sue has worked across TV, film, and theater. Her illustrious career includes playing an instrumental role in launching Onaprena's TV and theater divisions in her role as chief content officer. She also served as president of HBO Entertainment, where she helps shepherd such Emmy-nominated hit series like Girls, Veep, Game of Thrones, and many more. Most recently, she segueed into producing, and her most recent show, The Day of the Jackal, is now streaming on Peacock. Welcome, Sue.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

So um these are it's always tricky to know where to start when somebody's got shows like Game of Thrones in their in their credits. But obviously, um it's always more interesting when we get people on the the sort of studio business side because the the things you have to uh do and worry about are very different to obviously the writers. So um I'm trying to think the best way in. I think the the the best way in probably is two of all of the projects that haven't gone because you know you killed them or you couldn't make them work or whatever it is. Is is there one particularly that you wish you could do over again and have back?

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Oh, that is you're starting with a tough question. Um, but you know, it's everyone has those projects that they really wanted to have happen. I mean, I I actually started as an as an agent, which is excellent training for hearing a lot of no's. And then I moved to HBO, where uh the hardest thing about working in those jobs is that you have to give a lot of no's. And it is absolutely the toughest thing about it. Just being a buyer is pretty great. Um and then what I used to think about HBO specifically is that the time that I worked there, it was really before Netflix had just started. So the other streaming services were just kind of coming into their own. And then at that time, it was really HBO and Showtime and FX. And FX was still, you know, FX was has always been excellent, but it was still kind of on the climb. So you in those moments you realize you have every great writer, every great director, every great actor who's thinking about television kind of comes through your doors. So and and we try to buy a good amount of materials so that we could have, you know, a choice, but those choices are sometimes about, you know, how much money you have, what else you're programming, what fits together, you know, HBO then and and still now really only programs prime, you know, primarily Sunday nights. So you you do have to say no. And I and I used to say to everyone that I worked with, God, we have so much incredible material. We've passed on such excellent projects. We could have programmed a whole other channel. Um, so to pick one is is difficult. Uh but there there were a few. I mean, I just saw recently uh Bill Monahan um has has is still working on a project that we worked on at the time at HBO. And I think he's doing it, he might be doing it as a movie now. It's called Keys to the City. And it was about a locksmith who could, you know, enter any apartment, enter into any anyone's space. And it was kind of a what it means to be a voyeur and to and to have like a look into the inner, you know, parts of people's lives. And of course, there's a crime story as well. But so so there's projects like that that I think about. I did another project with Todd Field, and um, but that was also about sort of sort of peering into other people's lives. There's so many wonderful things. I did a project with Todd Field and Wells Tower that was about pirates that I really, really loved with one of the best, you know, villains I've ever uh I've ever read who's named One Armed Mary. Um so so you fall in love with material and but you you have to make choices. And I credit, you know, having a healthy creative passion for the ability to fall in love with so many projects.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

I know it's an odd skill to have, but are you are you good at saying no?

SPEAKER_01 6:01

It would be an odd skill to have. I think that I am good at being truthful and direct. And in that, you know, as they say in Hollywood, you know, the only thing better than a or the only the if you can't get a yes, you need a fast no. Yeah. Um and so yeah, I'm very I don't hide the ball, I try to be as truthful as I can and to and to try to give context because it it it's not it's many, many, many times in those positions at networks or streamers, not about the quality of the material. It it has to do with other factors. And I think it's really helpful to give people kind of a bigger picture.

SPEAKER_04 6:43

Thank you for that. Uh can I can I back up but just a little bit? Because I'm I'm really interested in the transition from you being the head co-head of TV Lit at UTA and then you know segueing into, was it HBO that was next? Into, you know, sort of not exactly the other side of the wall, but a very different role, uh, which I'm sure your skills as an agent, you know, played a part in. But what was those early days like kind of in your new position? And how did you sort of prepare yourself for this job where you ultimately obviously thrived during the heyday of some of the best TV shows ever made, I would say.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

I mean, I think the the biggest reason for that, for the growth of that period had to do with the with the quality of the team. You know, I walked into incredible partners, you know, and I had really strong bosses. I had a great team on the drama and the comedy side. So I had a group of people that could hold me during that very quick learning period. But yeah, you you have you have to learn a lot very quickly. Um, my my comfort around material was there. Uh, understanding what makes something great was there because that's the more the kind of agent that I was. It was very close to my client's material and read many, many drafts of it, went to the editing room. So that sort of stuff wasn't as unfamiliar. But, you know, it's when you walk into a place like HBO, everyone who's there is excellent at their jobs. I think that's actually great, it's a great um training ground for what it means to be a producer ultimately, too. Because if you if you try to do everything yourself and hold every single decision, um, you're you're losing what's valuable about working within a team. And agenting, you know, you do have colleagues and you go to them for advice and you go to them um for for uh support, but you're really in a one-on-one relationship with your clients. And at a place like HBO and in production, you know, you really have to be in a community and you have to understand what you know what every person's bringing to the table. And once you do that, uh you can alleviate some of the pressure on yourself to be absolutely perfect all the time.

SPEAKER_04 8:52

So so fascinating. We have a lot of writers on this show because this is uh I'm a writer and that was my peer group were writers. So that's who we kind of brought in here. And then I've obviously, you know, occasionally or more and more often now, we bring in people from the other side. And I do think that the writers who listen are fascinated because they're so eagerly trying to glean clues from you know from the people that are buying their projects. But I'm curious, like on a on an ambition level, we're gonna probably you know get into rejection, failure, and adversity soon. But but like the uh, you know, when I when I, you know, as writer, as a writer, you want to sell a show first, and then you want to make a show, and then you want to sell a screenplay, and then you want to make a screenplay, and maybe then you want to be a director. And you I I found that once you achieved one goal, a new goal immediately replaced it. It wasn't like, you know, for me at least, it was like three seconds of happiness, and then what's next? How am I gonna get there? How do I climb this ladder even higher? For you as a you know, an agent, you rose to the top of the lit department there. Then you started at HBO. What where did you want to go in this career? What was your driving ambition as you were sort of making these transitions?

SPEAKER_01 9:57

It's that's such a great question. Um and I'm fascinated by what you're saying about your own ambitions. You know, I think I didn't, I didn't really come at it from I didn't, I didn't have that same feeling of what's the next, what's the next. I I was really happy being an agent. I I loved it. And I loved my colleagues. I still love UTA and and work with them all the time. So I wasn't looking to leave agenting, you know, I was pretty happy. But when an opportunity like that comes up, you know, who is who could possibly say no to it? You know, so it was an opportunity to learn something different and to see if I could do something different. And so again, you know, you can't say no, but those jobs have a shelf life, you know, as as as my colleague and pal, Casey Boys always, you know, would point out, like the chair you're sitting in is rented, you know, and and it is, and they are. So I could have thought through and realized that I probably wouldn't be there till the end of my career. But at the time, you know, a lot of the executives at HBO had been there for 20 or 30 years. So I wasn't planning on having these chapters in my life. Um, and when I was moving into producing, which is sort of, you know, an an inevitable step, or for some people, you know, I thought Warren Littlefield had a great article and deadline yesterday talking about this. But, you know, they're they're seen as sort of like default careers, or I guess you'll go be a producer. Um, to me, you know, I take everything I do really seriously. I really like to be prepared. Uh so I couldn't go into producing as sort of a, I guess I'll try this. You know, I had to go into it thinking like, how can I really learn how to do this and how can I learn to be excellent at it? So in a way, I've sat around all sides of the table and it really, really does help my job in producing, but you know, producing has many different parts to it, right? There's the development part, the selling, the material part, and the making. So those are really three different skill sets. So, in a way, all the things I've done have helped inform it. But I don't, I didn't set out thinking like I'm going to, you know, run Disney one day. Um, I have a lot of admiration for the people that are in a position to run Disney. Uh, it's just probably not what I'm I'm actually best suited for. And and that took a, you know, took this time in my career to kind of understand.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

So um I don't want to stray too far from what makes our podcast different from every other podcast and also every interview you're probably doing at the moment around your new show. But I also I want to ask you about the show. Um so I I went to the cinema uh I think a week or so ago. Uh I had to take my daughter to see Moana 2. Um, and the every trailer was for something that was not original IP. Um, so it was like Lion King Mufasa, the the dog man books that my kids love apparently is now a movie. Um I think there was one other one which I can't remember. But lit, I mean there was only a handful, but they were all versions of you know, sequels or or new not new IP. Now, um, this is sort of slightly different because it's not a sequel, but it's also obviously it is based on novels. Can we just talk about because you will have seen this a lot in your other lives as well, the about the difference between um you know something that's new, but obviously Game of Thrones was based on a book, although so that that's slightly different from just sort of lazy sequels, if you sort of mean, but the whole argument around IP and how that played into how you were thinking about doing this one. Um, and and were you worrying about would there be criticism because it isn't new? And how did you like tow that line?

SPEAKER_01 13:56

You know, I I I really understand what you're saying about I do get asked this question, not not always, you know, publicly or in a situation like this, but the conversation around IP has been going on now for a few years and people have strong opinions about it. Um you know, I could make an argument as to why original material is is really much better. I can also say that I watched the teaser trailer for James Gunn's new Superman and my heart did swell a bit. So I'm I'm a sucker. Um but in this situation, it's it it was, you know, I didn't initiate the Day of the Jackal. It started with a company called Carnival, which is a UK company um that works with Universal, and they had they had started production. So I kind of came in, I kind of merged onto a very fast-moving highway, which I had never done before. Again, though that falls into like some challenge category. I was like, can I possibly go and do this and move to, you know, Croatia and Budapest, live as the only American inside of the system and understand more about European production and then also understand what's not going well and how to help fix it and how to give support. After, you know, you get over the initial shock of like jumping into an ice cold pool. You know, you do, I did think a little bit about, you know, the scripts, uh almost all of the scripts had been written and they were excellent. I I could see what Ronan Bennett was doing with the original. I also knew that, yes, people people love the original book and they love the original movie, but it's it's hardly the kind of IP that we're usually used to talking about. You know, people have seen it, you know, when they were much, much younger in the 70s, uh, or where it was a little bit of a cult movie, you know, where their fathers had shown it to sons and things like that. It wasn't um, it wasn't taking on something that people had major expectations for. There's iconic moments in the original movie, which we did try to echo in the series. But I think it's best um in those situations to look at it as a reimagining versus a remake or reboot. Yeah. And that's how how it was approached.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

And and what I mean, obviously, Nara and I encounter a low-level version of this every time we speak. Um, the difference between Brits and Americans, and obviously Eddie Redmain is is the most British, British person, um, I think, in terms of both the roles he's played, also just sort of how Poshi is.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

And you're so funny. I was speaking to him this morning, he was waiting for a plumber to arrive. And I kind of made a joke, like celebrities, they're just like us.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

I remember we did some when I worked at the consulate, we did some work with Eddie, and he's just he's just the most, you know, he was helping us as the British Diplomatic Service do something. He's so British. As an American, sort of coming into to all of this, um, what what what is it like? Because obviously, we've learned a lot on this show about how different these things are in terms of, you know, obviously on normal TV shows in terms of writing rooms versus just individual people writing it, but also just how production is thought about. Have there been culture clashes? Have you what have you learned from them and what have you helped them solve that you have a unique perspective of because you've been in the big American system?

SPEAKER_01 17:11

There are there are advantages to both sides. I mean, that was the best thing about uh about doing it. It was an incredible group of people. Um, Eddie primarily is the most dedicated, prepared um actor. I think I've maybe have ever worked with and worked with some incredible actors. He cares so much. And so there is, I I I understand um the issues around sort of the class system in the UK. Uh, I but I find it as an American sort of funny. It took me a minute to understand why people would talk to me about where they went to college. You know, it's like six-year-old men talking about Cambridge. And I think like, oh, okay. Are we should we talk about, are we talking about high school and college? I don't understand. You know, I think we're adults, but it, but it is a different, it, you know, it took a minute to understand, it's just a different a different culture around that sort of thing. And Americans are very invested in the idea of being self-made and um, and there's obviously kind of different ways of being in a class system in the UK. But there, you know, on the on the US side, the I think one of the smartest things that US productions do is have generous writing periods. There were some gains in the last, you know, writers' guild negotiation around you know, losing mini rooms, which I was very happy about. Um, because I feel like you really need to have the material prepared and ready before you start production. It doesn't always happen that you're entirely ready, but you're you're that is usually my first giant goal. Um in the UK, they do very short periods of writing, like two or three weeks of a room, and then people go off and write episodes and and and those and those rooms are smaller, and the uh the primary writer is it's it's a little bit more authored. Um that that I think that maybe there's something in the middle, you know, that could that could work, that could work well. Um, because I think writers, you know, need a lot of support. I think Jim Mickle on his episode with you said something so smart around, you know, it could take me three weeks to come to an idea and I could find that idea with contributions in the room in, you know, in 30 minutes. You know, and and that's and that's sort of creative collaboration, I kind of think is the way. On the other, on the other side though, you know, UK productions, the European productions, they work 10-hour days. And that is a dream because you're never, you don't get into Fratterdays, you just keep on a really steady schedule. So you're either starting at six or seven if you're working daylight, um, you have an a night to prepare for the next day. It's a little less of that kind of Indiana Jones boulder coming right behind you that can happen in production. Um, so I think you know, I thought a lot about uh how you to kind of meld the two systems. Um, but they're they're they're you know, that that alone, the 10 hours versus 12 to 14 in the US is a giant, giant difference in terms of stamina um and and the community of a set, because you really have to be careful not to exhaust everyone.

SPEAKER_04 20:17

Fascinating. By the way, I I want to uh quickly define Friday because it's such a good term and people, not everyone listening, might know what that means, but in a TV show production, you have a 12 hour, you have a turnaround, something called a turnaround. So if you push late every day, as you go through your weeks Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, you start later and later and later and later. And so often by Friday, you're starting like at two or three o'clock in the afternoon and you're working till three or four in the morning every single week. So these they call them Friday days because they they know they're coming and it's can be hard on the crew. And you do tend to schedule your night work on Fridays because you know you're going to have night work by default in this schedule. So this is the cursed Friday because it can really burn down a crew if they're getting lots of Friday days in a row. I also want to add real quick that you know, TV writers are snobs, and uh uh when they talk about television, you ask your friends about television, they're often gonna pick the most, either they're gonna pick reality TV or they're gonna pick the most, you know, something really good to say that they're watching because they've seen everything and they've they got picky. And your show is definitely on the water cooler tour right now of people talking about it and loving it. And I can't wait, it's next on my list. So I just want to put that whether or not you've heard that, that is like people are enjoying it in my world.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

So that's the uh oh god, that's great. That's really happy to hear. I mean, I'll never know unless I hear from friends from high school. That's usually my go. People are watching it.

SPEAKER_04 21:39

The um the uh so a question though, because you know, we we our bread and butter in the show is sort of like you know, anecdotes uh from things that happened. You said you've been working in uh was it Croatia and uh Budapest. And Budapest. So can you tell us any stories sort of from the ground, either from this production or from another, if you can't, for this one, about some. Something that you know you're now thrown into this new world of fast moving production in a different cultures, multiple different cultures actually, and something that crisis that you had to handle, or a bad day, or something that you decided to overcome during this experience.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

Now we're getting to the title, right, of your podcast.

SPEAKER_04 22:18

The screaming part. When did you scream, Sue?

SPEAKER_01 22:21

Yeah, you want the screaming parts. I mean, oh God, you know, things go very right every day and things go wrong every day. So it's I'm trying to think of one situation. Um usually I would say that uh because we were a little bit behind on the scripts, we there there was a some panic about kind of getting the beats of nine and ten right. You know, you really have to land the finale. Um, and it it was it was it was fun and difficult and uh that required a lot of people kind of weighing in. Our directors, a woman named Anna Menon, who worked on the last two episodes, was really inventive and and trying to figure out where everyone needs to stand. It was one of those things where it was a panicky moment, but it was also seeing people kind of come into their best. The actors had a point of view, the director had a point of view, you know, we had you know an existing script and just trying to make it work and make all of those beats land. But again, you're on a very tight schedule because you you don't have the ability to go, you know, past the 10 hours. Um, and that's ultimately great. But in those moments, you're like, if we could just get two more hours. So, you know, there were definitely moments, moments like that. Um, and then there's, you know, weather and and things aren't quite ready and things aren't quite finished. You know, there's there's all sorts of things that can that can happen in production. I'm I don't think there was anything that was an absolute disaster. Unfortunately, for the purposes of this podcast, I can't give you something that really blew up. But, you know, I have to say I only have one tattoo and it says optimist. So you're it's I'm hard pressed to really kind of get into the muck on a lot of things anyway.

SPEAKER_04 24:07

Well, if uh okay, well, uh pivoting from that muck to earlier muck then in in your career, because I mean, you have a storied career. You really you have an amazing career. And so we and we've, you know, we've had people on here with, you know, Emmy Award Academy, we've a lot of people who've had really great careers, but every, you know, trying to find the holes in those careers is what Dan and I like to. We like to poke at the career. Okay. Uh, and it's like there was there ever a time in your career where you're like, I am absolutely in the wrong, like I just want to, I'm over this, I'm done with this, I'm gonna go weave baskets in Idaho for the rest of my career. I just need to like like take either take a breather because it was overwhelming, or just being like, there's just time for a career pivot, or I'm just not happy at this second. Writers obviously are quicker to answer this because we're perpetually miserable.

SPEAKER_01 24:53

But uh, you know, there's there's something, you know, in my in my new iteration and this new production company we have with the Universal, and working with my producing partner, a woman named Allie Krug. We've worked together since HBO. So we worked together a really long time. Uh and when we went to Anna, when we went to Annapurna, it was after I had a smaller production company with a deal at HBO, you know, the goods and bads of those kinds of deals. And Megan had kind of picked our whole group up and moved it to Annapurna, which was lovely and great. And so we had some projects that we had started, we had other projects that we started. And what I didn't realize at the time is that a television development can really run on, you know, basically like a five or six year cycle. So if you are selling a bunch of material um in the beginning of that cycle, you're you're optioning books, you're putting them together, you're selling things, inevitably, uh if if if many things go right. But but it's also, I would say, it's not luck. You know, if you if you pick carefully, if you do your job well, what what we learned is that the garden can kind of all bloom at the same time, which like you get a lot of shows greenlit at the same time. And there was a year at Annapurna where I think we were we were in production on six different things, and uh Allie and I were bouncing from five different cities. And, you know, and two, there were two in LA and then a handful of other cities. And Allie was just had her first child. So then she was on maternity leave. So I was by myself for a period of maybe four months where I was just, I thought I was gonna lose my mind. I really did. I was like, I have to do all of these things have to be excellent, all these things have to work. And I and I will say, like, I I did have many dreams of opening a bakery, which is my backup. You know, I just want to open a bakery, just want to get up early and make some cakes. But um it was that was difficult. Uh it but it but it all did get, you know, did it did happen and did uh all get done. And it goes back to what I had said earlier about really being confident in the team that you've put together and and and really showing up. So you have to get on those red eyes, you have to be there. Uh, and you push yourself and then it and then it's and then it's done. Um, but I think about that a lot now that we're in this new iteration and we're starting to put things together and starting to sell things. It's like I just dread that happening again.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

Can I go back um to a bit earlier in your career uh to to Game of Thrones? Um just because obviously I'm a big fan of it, but everyone knows about it and what a ended up, what a success it ended up being, obviously. I guess a couple of couple of questions. The first one being when did you realize Game of Thrones would end up being Game of Thrones in terms of it became what it was? But more interestingly, were there any particularly earlier on, were there any things that you know, did you nearly kill it? Um, or you know, did you nearly stop it becoming anything? Or were there times where your involvement uh you know, were there moments earlier on where it could have stopped being the amazing thing it was if different decisions had been made?

SPEAKER_01 28:11

Yeah, there there were a few. You know, I first of all, you know, I didn't I didn't develop it, was developed by Carolyn Strauss, who was there before me and who's incredible. Um and and I think, you know, when you when I started there, I just read everything that they had because I wanted to kind of see, you know, for for whatever reason, when I when I went into HBO, it was it was strangely a a low period. They had, they didn't have very much, they weren't committed to making very much yet. You know, I think they had season two of Tell Me You Love Me, which ended up not moving forward. They had just come off of the back of John from Cincinnati, which hadn't worked. Um, and so in the first few months I was there, like the script for Boardwalk Empire came in, Tremay came in. I mean, and all those were incredible, but they were they were really developed by Carolyn. Um, Game of Thrones was in sort of a passion pile, you know, a passion group of projects, but it was it seemed extremely expensive to make. But the bigger challenge was the genre because HBO wasn't known for doing uh that dragons, you know. And I, when I was an agent, um I had sold, I'd were I worked with Alan Ball and we had sold True Blood. So they had committed to making that. So I kind of came in right as they were, you know, in production and getting ready to put it on the air. And I think there was some trepidation around vampires in HBO. So I found myself in a strange situation because it was a new group. We were all working together. There's a woman named Gina Ballion, who's now at FX, who's incredible. And Gina was like, I love this show, Game of Thrones. It was the my favorite thing that I read of all the things I read. I'm not a fantasy person. I didn't, I didn't have a familiarity with the books. I just, and but but that is that is a that is a marker, right? Because if if that's not where I'm drawn and I'm loving it, you know, I I always think when I'm working on something or I'm reading something, I or I'm listening to a pitch, I think, will I what would I want to watch this? I watch a ton of TV. I try everything, a sample, almost everything. So but but what I stick with, you know, is probably a much smaller list. So it's like if if I want to watch it, then that must mean something. Uh but there was a there were people internally who thought, like, okay, great. So now we have vampires, now we have dragons. Is this HBO? Is this where we are where we are? We're this. Um, and and Boardwalk Empire also is a very big financial commitment. Uh, and to ask for another giant show was difficult. But there were there were there was a lot of people stepping in from foreign sales um supporting it. There were ways in which I think that show was made much more cheaply than than you would imagine. Um, and of course, famously, you know, 80% of the original pilot had to be reshot. So I did think I was gonna lose my job during that period. I felt a lot of pressure, but I was one of many people that were passionate about the project. It was hardly, you know, my divine inspiration, you know. I just, I absolutely loved it. But did I know it was going to be this enormous of a hit? Um I think I I didn't. I knew I thought people would love it, but I but when I watched Belfast, the city, change so much during that period of time, I felt kind of the wonder of just what a cultural, you know, touchstone can be, you know, what it means for people around the world to love something. It was pretty great.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

Yeah. That's a great answer. I mean, I remember when I was I was with the government at the time, and you know, the the tourism industry around that, you know, I think it I think it ended up being much more significant, even then sort of Harry Potter and and bits of Scotland. Um, you know, it's extraordinary uh what it does beyond just being an incredible, incredible TV show.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

Yeah, you can go to Belfast and you could take a tour about the troubles, or you can take a tour about Game of Thrones.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

Did you do did you do both of those tours or did you do Game of Thrones?

SPEAKER_01 32:23

No, I didn't do the Game of Thrones one, I think.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

I did do the Troubles. Um so a question I like to ask people, particularly when they've done multiple different things, is from a sort of what gives you career satisfaction, particularly where you are now, like what would be the thing that would mean most to you now? Would it be um being a producer on a show that does incredibly well? Would it maybe be delving further on the creative side and maybe you know creating your own show that ends up being a success? Is it maybe going back to a you know a big studio and then them having multiple shows of success? What is the thing now that would give you the most pleasure?

SPEAKER_01 33:15

I mean, I really love what I'm doing. You know, like I said, I didn't set out to do to be a producer, but I really, really love it. Um, so I I if I could just continue doing what I'm doing, I'd be really happy. But I do get a weird satisfaction from pulling together things that are seemingly more esoteric and watching them work. And it's it is something I mean, you'd have to ask my therapist, but I could kind of love those little challenges. Like I produced this movie Night Bitch. It's like the idea that Nightbitch got made into this concept of Amy Adams and her reckoning with, you know, kind of being a stay-at-home mom with a toddler, which, you know, can be incredibly tedious and starts to kind of attach to the feral part of her. I mean, the concept is really strange, you know, but watching that get made or watching a show like Dead Ringers get made with Rachel Weiss's, you know, initial idea about taking on that talk about like IP that has a very cultish following and reimagining that, have it be more about maternal health and our healthcare system, you know, in addition to her being able to play crazy twins. Like I do love that. These things are unlikely and I get to play a part in getting them to happen. But you know, everyone dreams of a long-running medical franchise. I'm not gonna lie, that would be great. That would be great. I love medical shows, so you know, I'm working on one now, maybe. Maybe. Um, but uh, you know, uh mostly by the time by the time it comes to like Golden Globes or uh awards, and it's like those are great, but they are so far removed from the actual making of something. They're so far after. Those moments always feel a tiny bit strange, uh, strange to me. That's not my most comfortable space. My most comfortable space is on set with the crew, watching everybody start to come together and make something that you hope is you know magical, watching that alchemy.

SPEAKER_00 35:11

Great answer. Uh I must confess, um I I don't watch as much TV and and and and movies as as probably I should, given we do the podcast, because it's not my my job. But Night Beach falls into the category of things where like I'd never heard of it. I saw it on the list at AMC when we were going to see something else. And uh it was such a brilliant title for a movie that I now want to go and see it. So um it was genius. Um, right, anyway, back to a real question from Noah.

SPEAKER_04 35:39

I I I'm looking, you know, right in front of me is your is your resume and the things that you've done. And I'm looking at all the shows that you know we've talked about some Board of Empire, Board of Empire, Boardwalk Empire, True Blood, Tremay, East Front and Down, Enlightened V Girl. I mean, these are so many shows that are like like iconic in in people's brains. And it almost makes me a little sad because it's reminding me of a Hollywood that isn't making as much anymore. And it's just like, will there ever be another Game of Thrones? Because of you know, budgets are shrinking and people are not, you know, today. I'm not sure HBO or a company like HBO would sit would take a risk and be like, let's do a dragon show because people are more risk averse. Can can you talk a little bit about the the the Hollywood today? And if and do you see with your optimism tattoo, a time at which things will change and get better again? Because we've I've you know, I've been in the industry for like 20 years, it's the worst I've ever seen it. It's the worst. I've I talked to I interviewed someone, you know, a couple weeks ago who's been in the industry for like 50, 45 years. It's the worst he's ever seen it. So like, is is there is there gonna be sunlight breaking through these clouds?

SPEAKER_01 36:52

I I believe there there is, and I and I, you know, that could be my optimism, but but I also feel like I've been, you know, I was an agent when I was very young. And so uh so I've I've gotten to see a lot, you know. I like lived through the big comedy boom in the 90s. I lived through periods of time where networks were openly saying dramas, you know, starring women don't work. I lived through people saying no one wanted to see another medical show. Speaking of Gray's Anatomy, my show my daughters think they discovered, you know, was was a show that was supposed to be mid, you know, was mid-season and was supposed to be sort of like a burned out. I've seen so much. Um, and then and I've seen incredible programming breakthrough. And anytime I read an article or someone says to me, Well, well, they would never buy the bear now. I just think just stop yourself. You it is difficult right now. There's a many reasons for it. That would probably be a whole other episode. Um, who's making decisions, big tech, board of directors, stock prices. There's a lot of reasons that that are contributing to it. But individual writers and their creativity, and it all starts with writing, especially in television. That that is you you have to have an environment that allows for innovation. You have to have people showing up and trying, even when it seems impossible. Like the worst thing, and then I have friends that are, you know, a lot of them are going to become professors and you know, leaving LA. And that I've seen a lot of that. And and you know, they're probably going to be really happy. So I'm not being critical of their choices, but I the the worst thing that we can all do on the creative side of the business is to stop trying, is to, is to be daunted, is to say, you know, nothing great is going to make its way through. The Bear is an incredibly unusual show. It's ingenious, it's brilliant. And it's created by Chris Dore, who didn't spend a million years in writers' rooms, didn't spend a million years like, you know, climbing his way up a certain ladder or doing things a certain way. He just had a really interesting way in on a story that was personal to him. And he and he had the bravery or in casting and the and talk about a set that I hear is like so supportive and wonderful. Okay, bad decisions, bad behavior, that it comes from fear. So so if you're working at a company where everyone feels like, what's the use? I'm gonna cog, you know, who cares? You know, the nothing it isn't there's no fertile ground to grow anything right. And writers have to be the people that start, they just start, they look at the page and they write it and they start. And if they can't imagine light at the end of the tunnel, we are definitely screwed. You know, um there's there's a lot of no's right now, there's a lot of fear right now. There's a lot of buyers at the different streamers who maybe don't have as much experience in in developing or in buying because there's just so many positions like that. You know, but but you have to just lean in and say, is this something, you know, I would watch? Is this is this story compelling to me and try? And I do think it will turn around. I really do. I mean, people love television, they've always loved television. People sit down every night to watch it, um, in my world at least. Uh so yeah, I don't I I just can't can't wake up every day throwing my hands up in the air. I expect no's, but as I often say, and Allie often says, you know, when we're taking something out, it only takes one, and you know, you can only say yes to one. So if it's not for you, that's all right. And you just have to keep trying. My job is to get things made. That's my job as a producer, to get it made. And so that's a hard road. It's a lot of will and it's a lot of determination. So if I can't go into that and start that process passionately and maintain that passion, then I'm not, then I'm not effective.

SPEAKER_04 40:54

Wow, that's such a good answer. And I appreciate you saying, and I want to highlight because it it dovetails what you said earlier about the five to six year cycle that writers and a lot of the writers listening who are disparaging right now, we we don't live in the week to week. We don't live in the day-to-day. We don't even live in the month to month. We live in the year to year because it takes so long for us to write a project, set up a project, sell a project. So the thing you're working on today might not have life four, five, six, you know, years from now. Uh, you know, and so it's it, and who knows where the market's going to be in a few years when that kernel that you've been, you know, bouncing around in your head is a full-fledged, you know, script with attachments and is ready to go out. Sometimes we're faster, obviously, but keep your head up. Um, okay, so you know, unfortunately, because you know, I'd love to hear some more kernels of wisdom from you. We're gonna ask for one more kernel of wisdom for you. And it's a question that we ask uh every single person who comes on this podcast. If you could give one piece of advice to somebody joining the business, wanting to be a producer, executive, uh what would it be?

SPEAKER_01 42:02

I mean, it kind of is, you know, echoing of you know what I just said, it's not to give up. Don't give up. I mean, there's you know, there's so many paths into this business. You know, I did start, you know, as an as an agent, but really my very, very first job, you know, is making muffins and cookies and selling them to people in craft service. So, you know, I think it's like how what's your way in, or do you have a passion for it? Who where can you learn? Um, and you just have to keep trying. It's it's determination and like resilience, no matter what I've done, or you know, I I even when you guys were talking about, you know, looking at my resume and like, oh my God, it's such a career. I can only tell you I didn't it doesn't feel that way day to day. It feels like how am I going to do this? What am I gonna get to make next? I never feel like I should can coast for a bit, you know. So you have to enjoy that resilience and grit and determination. You got to push that rock straight uphill every day. Um, and if you have that stamina, I think it it will work. Everyone I know who's wanted to work as a writer has gotten a very good shot and has gotten, and many have had like incredible careers. You know, it's it's it's not easy, but none of it is easy. Um, but we're we're lucky to do you know what we do, even when it feels discouraging.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

Another great answer. Look, um, Sue Nagel, um executive, producer, friend of the Brits, thank you very much indeed for coming on the show. This has been a magnificent episode. Thank you for your time.

SPEAKER_01 43:45

But thank you for having me. It was really nice to talk with you guys.

SPEAKER_04 43:48

Thank you. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you, James Launch, for the music. And our wives for putting up with our commentary. As always, each episode is brought to you by Scriptation, my favorite screenwriting annotation software. If you want to support the show, please download a copy at www.scriptation.com backslash Noah.

SPEAKER_00 44:10

Or perhaps even better www.scriptation.com backslash Dan. Dan is called F-O-A-H.

SPEAKER_04 44:19

If you want to find me on social media, I'm at NFL.

SPEAKER_00 44:29

Don't worry about me on social media, because we people care about it.