Take 104 - EVP IP Management Jordan Moblo, Universal Studio Group

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for sure, dozens of unproduced scripts literature.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in home with every single day.

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One of the only businesses I can think of where failure is one page five. What I've realized for that will be never one page five. There will be other five.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Screaming into the Hollywood Everest is brought to you by Scriptation, the Emmy Award-winning app that instantly transfers your notes into new drafts in seconds. Scriptation allows you to digitally mark up scripts, separate notes into layers, track changes across revisions, and so much more. Insert Noah saying something nice about scriptation.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

Dan, I I think this is where they actually want me to talk about how much I love it. And I do love it, it's great. My wife might have other things to say about that. Sitha listeners can get a free month of scriptation by going to scriptation.com backslash Sitha.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

For those of you who don't understand slightly drawly American accents, that's scriptation.com backslash S I T H A. If you're wondering about timelines, this episode was recorded before the strike ended. Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. I am as ever your non-entertainment co-host, Dan Rotstein.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

And depending on when this airs, I pray to God I'm not still on strike. You're still on strike co-host, Noah Epstlin. And today, Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, I'm thrilled to introduce Jordan Moblo, Executive Vice President of Creative Acquisitions and IP management for Universal Studios Group. Leading the IP focused division, he and his team are responsible for sourcing and acquiring content for Universal Television, UCP, Universal International Studios, and Universal Television Alternative Studio. Before Universal Studios Group, he's also worked for Netflix, Disney, Disney, and 20th Television, amongst others. Welcome, Jordan. Thanks, Ryan.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Thanks for being here, Jordan. And thanks, Noah, for reminding us that you are a writer, not a reader. Not a reader. Jordan, I'm going to give you possibly the easiest opening question that we've ever asked of a guest, which is just because in this season we're trying to sort of delve into different bits of the industry, I'm actually going to just simply ask you, what is it that you actually do? And then we'll get into the harder questions.

SPEAKER_03 3:35

I think I think one of the prime failures of my career is have having a title that is not easily discernible, that I have to be able to explain a little bit more because it is a bit of a word salad. But in short, I tell a lot of the executives and producers I work with here at Universal that I'm I'm the I'm the book guy. And it's my job first and foremost to kind of help identify, track, and acquire books and different forms of IP. And when I say IP, I basically am referring to podcasts, articles, life rights, graphic novels, video games, board games, basically anything that we can option that there's a great story or character at the center of that we can then adapt for our television. And I have a team here at Universal, and we sit almost at the intersection of books and publishing and uh traditional TV development. And it's our job to not identify, we like to identify the best books or the best pieces of IP, but we're looking for the best books and pieces of IP for TV, right? So it doesn't have to be the most incredible book, the best thing you've ever read in your entire life. It has it could be something that has a great character or a great world or something that subverts reader expectations. And those are it's our job to kind of find those things and fill either white spaces or mandates or specific arenas that our executives and producers here at the studio are looking for in particular. And that's that's kind of the primary job. And then there's a lot of things that kind of offshoot from there.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

Excellent. No, thank you. That's very helpful. Um, I hadn't appreciated podcasts were part of it. So if you want to stay on afterwards, we can discuss the rights um for this one. So um I guess that as a starting point, obviously I'm not quite from this world, but would it be right to characterize it that your I guess your competitors in the search for the story are both obviously the person doing your job for other both studios, but obviously streamers and so on now, but also all of the writers themselves who are running around. I've got friends who are writers who are you know finding books and optioning them and so on. So you're you're competing with both other organizations and thousands of individuals.

SPEAKER_03 5:41

Sure. Uh I and I don't consider all of them competition. I I like to think that there's a there's always going to be another book. And so I don't I don't get too precious about it, which I think has has made it a little easier in my career to stomach kind of the losses or the books that I don't lose to the people out there that are doing the same thing as me. Um, but yeah, I think I think right now it's it's been a really big time in the last few years, at least for books and IP. Um, I I've seen a huge uptick just in the in the time that I've been doing this job, where books have become a huge uh opportunity for writers or showrunners or content creators to use uh as an adaptation or even just for the ideation process. Uh and we have lots of people we work with here at the studio who come to us and say, hey, this is an arena we're really excited about, or there's a character or world we're really excited about. We would love to find a piece of IP that would help bolster that or maybe give us some inspiration. Um, and so we use books and IP in the traditional sense of acquiring them and turning them into shows, um, but we also use them for lots of different purposes and different strategic opportunities. Sometimes it's we want to be in business with an author in particular, and we like their library but don't love it, but think they're someone that's worth investing in. Um, or if we're on TikTok, which has become really big in the publishing industry right now, there's a lot of self-published authors that maybe don't have the same platform as the traditional publishing authors might. And so we've spent a lot of time starting to identify those voices as well. People that not only are writing books or different forms of IP that we can acquire and adapt, but people that also might be interested ultimately in doing more than just writing books, whether that be um learning how to produce or write a TV show themselves. We're seeing a lot of authors who want to adapt their own material. And so I think that while I have a lot of the same competition out there in the marketplace that I'm I'm competing with on the same books or working together with to find things, um, we're also doing a lot of other things with books in IP besides I think what you would normally just consider them for.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

And just to help lay the groundwork a little bit more for the audience, there's a lot of discussions amongst writers uh about the importance of IP when they are crafting their own stories, when they're writing their specs. And a lot of writers will say, you know, you shouldn't even go out unless it's attached to a big piece of IP. What is the importance of IP to the studios? Why are you so eager to get the bigger titles? And I think I know the answer, but it's going to help you know the audience hear this uh answer as well.

SPEAKER_03 8:17

I mean, obviously it's important to the studio because I need to keep my job. So I'm always going to say it's the most important thing. Um, but like joking aside, I think um I think IP is valuable for a couple of reasons. First and foremost, a lot of times it comes with a pre-existing audience, right? So if you have a book that's a massive bestseller, like something like Big Little Lies that has sold millions of copies, you all of a sudden already have an audience of readers who you hope will come and watch the TV show as well. Um, I also think that when it comes to books, um books themselves go through a pretty extensive editing process. There's an agent who reads the book, then they send it to an editor, editors are giving notes on those books. And so you kind of have this built-in development process that happens a little bit further upstream that kind of gives that book a little bit more credibility and value when it comes into us at the studio. Do I think that you have to have a big piece of IP if you come into our organization or you're a writer that wants to be developing for television? No. Um, I still subscribe to the idea that original ideas are king and paramount in our industry. And some of my favorite TV shows over the last 20 years, things like Lost or Alias or The West Wing, um, or recent things like Severance, like those are original ideas that I still crave as a TV viewer and just a fan of the medium. Um, I think for us, the first question we ask when uh either we bring a piece of IP to an executive or a writer or a producer or vice versa, they bring it to us is we ask, do you need this piece of IP to tell this story? Uh and a lot of times the answer is no. And and for us, um, books are their own medium in and of itself. You don't, I don't think all books need to be adapted. So if you're going to adapt a book and turn it into a TV series or a movie, I think it's important that you're able to take the source material and do something with it that will still resonate with the original audience that read and loved the book, but also you're able to take creative liberties that elevate it beyond the page and the source material, something that will be exciting to a writer or a showrunner or a producer or a piece of talent, thinking that they can put their own creative spin on it while not dinging the people who love the book in the first place. So a lot of times we we end up playing defense where we're saying, I don't think you need this article or this book to tell this story. You want to tell the story, let's find a writer, let's give them some inspiration, let's find them some stuff that will help them take this idea and turn it to something original if ultimately we don't need that book or we don't want to compete with everyone in the marketplace over what it might ultimately cost us.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

I I love I love and appreciate that answer, especially coming from you, that original ideas still have merit. I think a lot of writers have become scared that their original ideas, there's just no place for them right now in this marketplace. But I'm, you know, hearing from you who would know saying otherwise, I think will be really reassuring. Okay, so let's wind back a little bit. This first question is how do you, you know, when you were had dreams of joining Hollywood as people do of beg getting in this industry, was your dream to be in creative acquisitions and IP management? Was it something else? Did you pivot into this? How do you actually start this career? And maybe what were some early struggles as you were sort of climbing that ladder?

SPEAKER_03 11:33

I've always I was always a big reader growing up. I've always been voracious. I remember my mom taking me to the library every Monday, and my dad taking me to the bookstore every Friday. So I grew up surrounded by books, and I was a huge reader as a kid. Um, we weren't, funny enough, we weren't allowed to really watch TV growing up. And so we ended up reading a lot of books. And so it's kind of fortuitous that I ended up in this career. But I wanted to be a talent agent. I uh when I was in high school, I became very excited about film editing and kind of going to the movies and watching TV. Probably the thing that I wasn't allowed to do was the thing I wanted to be a part of. And so for me, um, I actually wanted to be a film editor. And I my mom got me a book. It was this book, it was like 101 Hollywood careers. Um, and under A, it was agent. It was like, do you want to go to fancy parties? Do you want to meet famous people? Do you want to negotiate deals? And I was like, I want to be an agent. Like, let's go do that. And so that's where I started my career. And when I came out to Los Angeles, I started as a temp in the mail room at CAA and moved my way up and was there for three and a half years. And I really loved the experience. I remember I interviewed at a smaller agency and they said, you can be a big fish in a small pond here, or you can go be a cog in the machine at a company like CAA. And I said, I think I'd like to go be a cog for a little bit. And I went and I had exactly the experience that I wanted to have at that company and really loved it. Um, but I learned very quickly that I did not want to be a talent agent. And I think that was probably the first moment in my kind of career where I started to think, like, oh my God, what have I done here? I've moved out from the Midwest to Los Angeles. I'm making $10 an hour. I'm barely affording rent, and now I don't want to do this. What do I do? Um, and I think I was able to identify different jobs and slowly start to transition to the job I'm in now by leaning into the things that I really love doing on a day-to-day basis. Things like reading scripts, um, things like reading books, writing coverage for the executives I was working for. And I think the things that I do in my day-to-day job now are those things that I look back on that I really leaned into over the last 10 to 15 years.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

So Noah asked that question. I was actually going to ask the same question, but in a much, much meaner way. Um so uh I'm glad Noah did it a nice way. So let's do uh I guess a quite a traditional failure. Well uh failure, yeah, failure story. What's the book or piece of IP that you decided didn't have legs and then somebody else took it and turned it into something incredibly uh successful?

SPEAKER_03 14:08

I've been in this current role now, probably for the last four years, and and as people who work in the industry, it's you know it sometimes tends to be a slower process and the development and and getting things to the pipeline. So I don't know if I've seen too many things that have been things that I might have passed on that then have you seen on TV and I've been like, shit, I should have gone after that. Um, there definitely are books that either I didn't pursue that turn out to be enormous bestsellers, um, or books that were really competitive that I passed on that I kind of look back on, I'm like, why didn't I go after that? I think probably the big one in the last couple of years was Gabriela Sevins Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow, which came out last year and was one of the biggest hits of the year and is in development, I believe, with Paramount Features. And when that came into us at 20, I was at 20th TV at the time, and we had a couple of producers bring it in. Um, and it was kind of being pitched as like a normal people or Bridgerton set against the game, the video game industry. And I remember reading it and not getting it. Like I read it and was like, I don't understand why everyone love this. This is fine, but it's it's not what they're pitching it as, and I don't agree with it. Um, cut to find out, there's 20 people bidding on it. It ends up being one of the biggest books of last year. And I actually read it again last summer when I was on vacation, and I was like, I'm such a loser for not pushing that harder on that one and really making a uh push to go after it. So I think that would be like the really big one for me in the last few years that stands out as like, oops.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

So what are the um I'm glad you got because when you started your answer, you started saying, Well, it sounded like you were about to say, actually, there haven't been any. So I'm glad you got to one. Otherwise, I would have had to keep asking the same question because there's no there's no way there can't have been one.

SPEAKER_03 15:49

It's hard for me, it's hard for me to uh look at the books that I've lost and consider them failures because I think it it's a bad mindset for me to have to put myself in because I lose books all the time. The the marketplace is so competitive right now. And to your earlier question, there are so many people pursuing the same things, and you get into these circumstances now where you have these kinds of bidding wars or feeding frenzies where multiple people are going after things. And so you have to kind of go in with the mindset that if I lose it, there will be another piece of IP or there will be another book that checks similar boxes as to why we like this. And it's our job to go find that. And I think when I started my career, I lost two books very quickly. I was very new, and I think being naive and and not really knowing a lot about what I had moved into for a career hurt and helped me in different ways. And one of the ways it hurt was I just didn't know enough about how to be competitive and help win books or what you paid for something or what kind of set us apart as a company that would allow us to win the rights to something. Um and so we lost a couple of books very quickly. And those are books where I can remember like crying in my car at the end of the day being like, I'm gonna get fired. They gave me this new job that doesn't really exist and I don't know what I'm doing, and and I have all the self-doubt. And I think I learned very quickly, I had some great mentors, and and it was, you know, there's gonna be another book, there's gonna be another piece of IP. Uh at the end of the day, like you can't get mired in this kind of feeling, or else you're never gonna be able to do the job you need to do because you're gonna be upset every time you lose something. And so I try to have a better positive outlook on that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

So um I guess a question about uh how uh how somebody is treated. Bear with me a bit on this. I'm trying to work out exactly what I'm trying to ask and how you can answer it. But uh we've had plenty of guests who've come on who've been, you know, uh writers for a movie, and obviously, you know, the they're they're the movie gets green lit and then they get fired on the same day, or you know, they get somehow the director or the producers ended up pushing them off. And so, you know, what is sort of their story, they end up not playing a very big part of, or it gets adapted in a certain way that they don't agree with. So, you know, we've had that from the writer's perspective, but uh obviously you're dealing with at some point, you know, whether it's an author or or a creator from podcast or TikTok. Um in terms of your relationship with them, obviously uh if something bad happens to their story, it's not going to be you because it's gonna be much further down the line. Um, but how do you sort of manage that and also manage their expectations that when you're bidding for this thing, it may not end up at on TV exactly how they think, and that because the process is so weird and non-linear that they may not always get treated beautifully during the process. How do you sort of deal with that?

SPEAKER_03 18:41

It's a really good question, and and we're seeing it's something that we have to deal with more and more often. As I mentioned, uh a lot of authors want to adapt their own work right now and they want to be involved creatively, and most authors have an expectation um that they will be involved in some way because the the writing community, especially in publishing, is really small. And so authors are all friends with one another and they talk about each of their experiences. And so what we're finding out is when I go after one book, that author will say, Well, I'm friends with so-and-so and so-and-so who have books set up here and here. And so then they expect similar kinds of deals. And so for us to kind of get ahead of that, there's a couple of things. One is it's communication. It's generally, if you're gonna pursue a book, if we're gonna go after something, we have a meeting with the author and the creative auspices at our company who are also going after it. So sometimes that'll be um I'll be on the phone with a creative executive, or I'll be on the phone with one of our producer deals, someone like Jenna Bush and her producing partner. Um, and we'll be with the author. And one of the big questions for all the authors that we always ask is what's important to you here? What part of the story is important? What do you want to preserve? We know some authors that they want to keep the ethnicity of the main character, or they have to keep a certain location, or you have to keep certain scenes because they're fan favorites. Um, and so we are always asking that question, what's important to you? Because if we're up front about it, then they can't be upset with us later down the line when that didn't come up as a big flag for us, or we um or we start to change that kind of thing. I think also authors going into it, they have to have some type of expectation that that there's going to be some creative liberties taken with the source material. I think a lot of readers and fans forget that so often books are internal and a lot of what's on the page is in someone's head that you then have to dramatize. And as a result of that, you're gonna have to take creative liberties, whether that's creating um new characters or changing the dialogue or taking a bunch of the supporting casts and turning them into one composite character to help streamline the storytelling process. Um, but I think a lot of authors understand what they're getting into. And so we see a range of authors who go from, I want to be the one that adapts it, I want to be super involved, I want to have approval over the casting and the director and the showrunner. Um, and then we have authors who say, I wrote the book, I never want to hear about this again. Go do what you want to do with it. I just want to cash a paycheck, or I trust the experts that are doing this. I'm not one of them. I want to write books. And so as long as I think we're getting that information up front and we're being communicative with the people we're getting into business with, um, I it feels like that kind of um takes care of that issue most of the time. Um, I think in addition to that, there we have really tried here at Universal in particular to create a home for authors. Um in my department in particular, it's our goal to be a point uh the point of contact for any issues that the author or their reps might have. So um if the author is nervous or the author wants an update or the uh the reps don't know what's going on, like they can come to us and here you and here in my department, we're the first line of defense to kind of say, here's where we're at. Let us put you in touch with the executives, let you let us get you some updates, let's make sure that you feel comfortable and confident because we want the authors and content creators that we're in business with to walk away, regardless of whether their book is adapted and makes it to screen. We want them to walk away having had a good experience and wanting to work with us. Again, or going and telling their author friends, hey, like it didn't work out, but it ended up being a great experience because we're finding that a majority of the stuff that gets optioned is coming back around and becoming available again. There's just too much in development right now. And so we want to make sure that the people who come and work with us, they trust us and they have a really good experience. And so we really work hard to do that.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

That's a great, that's a great answer. I think if you um are there examples where you come across someone like someone like Noah, for example, who doesn't like getting notes? Um if you if you get somebody like that, do you not proceed because uh it's probably going to end up being too difficult? So are there times where you've stopped it at the sort of after meeting the writer and they've set expectations that you know won't be able to be met later?

SPEAKER_03 22:51

Uh sorry, just to clarify, like if uh if we meet with an author and their expectations are supersized from what we're yeah, we'll walk away.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

Yeah, because it's safer to walk away now than it go wrong later.

SPEAKER_03 23:02

I I I think that's part of it. I think um I think a lot of times, like, do you want to spend the next three to five years potentially working on this project, that there's clearly a meeting of the minds that's not happening? And a lot of times that's that's good enough to say no, no, thank you on this one. There are some authors that you say, look, uh, I don't I don't know if this is going to be a great relationship. It sounds like this is going to be sticky and maybe a little bit difficult, but this is this is the book that is going to change my life. And I think that this is the one that's going to get all the awards attention and be the big book of next year. And that that's um up to the creative executives and the producers to decide what they're willing to do to be able to win the book. And sometimes they're willing to work with difficult people. And I we've made deals with plenty of interesting, complicated authors and content creators. I don't want to use the word difficult, that we're willing to do whatever it takes to be in business with them.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

To clarify for all the network executives out there, I love notes. They're my favorite thing. Favorite part of the process. Uh no, but a very necessary part of the process. So, my my question for you is about mistakes. It's a two-part question. What mistakes, and this is sort of we're in that ballpark right now, what mistakes have writers and authors made with you guys in trying to close this deal? And conversely, is there any mistakes you've made that you've that have cost you the deal? And you wish later on, I wish I had kind of handled this slightly differently.

SPEAKER_03 24:26

I think hindsight is always 2020 on a lot of those things. I'm sure I've lost deals when it comes down to something as much as like paying a little bit more money or a producer credit or something that you probably could have rectified really easily. Um I think the I think um a lot of times authors that want to adapt their own material that can sometimes be complicated because I think it's a different mindset adapting a book rather than screenwriting. I think those are two different skill sets. And it's really awesome to see someone who's able to excel at both. I think a great example is Fleischmann is in trouble, where I think Tappy might have done a better job with the show than she did with the book, which I think is one of the best books I've read in the last few years. Show is one of my favorites of last year. Um, I think that for us, we we are very careful when we agree to a writer adapting their own work. Um, and that's twofold. One, because, you know, if the writer doesn't have the experience, sometimes that can be really difficult to adapt your own work. And two, I think, especially if it's a debut author, a lot of it's very difficult to live with that book for five to seven years of writing it and going through edits and notes, and it's very personal to that person. And then to ask them to have to either change characters um or really make kill your darlings, I guess you would say. Um, that's really difficult for an author to have to do who hasn't done it before. And so I think that's one of the challenges for authors that I run into, where we're willing sometimes to walk away, depending on whether how creatively involved the author wants to be and how capable we think they are going to be, whether the book uh is going to need a huge creative lift or whether it's on the page. It's definitely something we take into consideration and it's definitely something that we've ended up losing some great IP over just because the producers or the creative executives ultimately don't agree with the vision that the author has for the adaptation. Sorry. Go on. I think uh with regards to the mistakes that we've probably made in the past, I I when I first started the job at 20th, I think that at the time book deals were very standard, and a lot of them the deal points were really they didn't change a lot. It was a very straightforward option purchase price that most of the studios were doing around town. And I think with the rise of companies like Netflix and um and streamers, those book deals changed dramatically. And all of a sudden they became very lucrative for authors, and there was a lot of money to be made, and authors started to really be respected in our industry and they started to be taken seriously. And as a result of that, those deals had to reflect that. And so I think for me, I think one of the big moments in my career working in books. Um, I got a call from a couple of my mentors who I look back on and and laugh at, but Jill Gillette and Sylvia Rabinau at WME, who are incredible book agents, basically called me one day when I had just started and said, You're the deals at 20th are antiquated and old, and this is not how people do business anymore. And as a result, we're no longer going to send you books because you make terrible deals as a studio. Um, and it was that moment that allowed me to say, here's what I'm gonna do. I want to make this right. We do a lot of business with you. I'm gonna bring a business affairs executive with me, and we're gonna come over to your office. And I want to hear what are the blind spots as our company when it comes to book deals, and what are the blind spots in the industry in general that can help us elevate what we're doing already? Um, and I think because of not so much mistakes, but just because of prior practices and us going over to WME and subsequently we ended up going to CAA and UTA and all these big agencies and having kind of a similar conversation with them. We were able to go back and completely restructure all of our deal making at 20th and became extremely competitive and just as competitive ultimately ended up beating the streamers on a couple of really big books, which also opened the door for me subsequently leaving 20th later down the line to go work at some of those streamers.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

Very blunt and very, very talented. Uh part of my career early on, too, which I never talk about really, was I was in development for just about a year and we did, we had a lot of books. And what people, what you talk, what you're talking about, what people might not realize is often these books are coming to producers before they've been published. So these decisions have to be m before we there you even know if there is an audience for these books because there's a feeding frenzy not around the published manuscript, but around the galley, which is the preprint that people are sending around. Um, but this is the first. Can you talk a little bit more around um the fact that you are now? This is the first, you know, I've been out of that side of the business for about 15 years. This is uh that you are protecting books in certain ways with these author deals. And are you then passing on that information to the writers you're meeting with, saying, by the way, you have free reign to adapt this, but this is a list of 10 things that are coming that are in contract that we want, or we want to protect just because we want to stay in business with this person. And sort of how does those conversations happen?

SPEAKER_03 29:34

They're a little bit more. I I still stay in, I still stay connected to some of the projects that I'm involved in. Generally, when we have those author conversations, there's usually a creative exec from the development team on the call as well. And so they're kind of versed in it, or at least the producers are. And I think once a deal is closed, we do this handoff to the producers and the and the studio executives where they are now taking over the project and the development. Um, and it's kind of up to the producers to live up to their promises to some degree that they talk through on the phone, whether whoever was on there. Um, and I and I leave it to them to kind of go through their process and incorporate the author depending on what kind of deal we put in place. And a lot of time the author, we're finding the authors are involved at least in some type of producer capacity. And so they are involved in those decisions, whether it is reading samples from the writer, having meetings with the writers. Um, sometimes if you're an author at a certain level, you are approving the writer or showrunner that ultimately takes on the project. So I think, yeah, yes, to some degree, we are protecting them in that way. And again, I am that front line that when the reps or author feel like something is going wrong, they come to me and then I try and smooth it out if I can. Um, but I also think it's a it's an author's world right now. And they have a lot more power than they traditionally have had. And so as a result of that, um, they have much more of a voice in the room. And so generally um they're able to protect themselves because either the deal is protecting them or they are they have enough power that they're able to help with those decisions and ensure that their vision is seen through correctly.

SPEAKER_01 31:06

Do you ever feel thank you for the answer? Do you ever feel at all of this? Because it sounds like you guys read a book, your team, you fall in love to a certain degree with the book and the material, you begin to see a future for that material in in your TV department. Do you ever feel that the material is going to the wrong person? And do you ever fight behind the scenes to kind of to adjust because maybe it's not going to play out the way you've envisioned it, or you've seen that person's work, or that writer has no work to look at, and you're a little bit worried about the future of this book that you've fallen in love with?

SPEAKER_03 31:39

It's it's a really good question. And it is something I kind of have to like, my inner demons have to deal with, where you start to see like, this isn't how I envisioned it, or this isn't the producer that I would pick to be responsible for overseeing the development of it. And I think it's going to end up being different than I like. But uh I think that at the end of the day, um, I trust the creators first and foremost and their vision. And I always want to defer, I consider them the experts. I think someone asked, there was a I was at an off site once and someone was like, Do you consider yourself a creative? And I was like, I don't really consider myself a creative. I consider myself someone who sits behind the scenes who gives a platform to creatives and really wants to make sure that they, as the experts, get to do the job that they are incredible at, and that allows me to do the job that I do. So um, I'm not super precious about it. When it comes to producers who I don't know if they're right for the adaptation, um I never get involved in that whatsoever. We're very objective when it comes to our job. We have over 100 producer deals here at USG. Um, we work with all of them. And a lot of times we have multiple producers coming after the same book because they've gotten either from a third-party book scout or their agency has sent them the book, sent it to multiple people. Um, and when it happens that we have multiple producers at USG going after the same thing, we are very objective. It's our job just to make sure everyone gets their day in court, gets to talk to the author, and ultimately leave it up to the author to decide who they want to be in business with. And then we trust that process. But I never step in the middle, even if I think, you know, this isn't right. And there have been plenty of examples where I'm like, this is just never gonna get made, or I'm just gonna sit back and kind of you know not think about it.

SPEAKER_00 33:22

Great stuff, great answer. Don't ask me for examples, please. Um because you said very good question to Noah. Um, I'm not gonna let him ask any more questions for the rest of the podcast now because he'll get too happy with himself. So I'll do the last three questions. Okay. Um so um let's start with the with the uh with the anti-penultimate question. I guess tell me although we're a rejection failure and adversity podcast, I still feel there's space for some nice stories. So tell me your favorite uh story of you know the author that you uh met that you liked, you helped it turn into something special and it all went smoothly and it was very everybody was very happy with it.

SPEAKER_03 34:11

I think a really good example of that would be the Will Trent TV series on ABC. Um and I wasn't involved in that right from the start. When I when I came into my position, they had uh uh Liz Heldens had already kind of identified the project and they were starting to try and figure out the deal. And and kind of going back to my my previous conversation about restructuring our deals, we had never done a deal of that size for the number of books in the Will Trent series. And there was also a crossover series that that we needed to uh handle as well. And so um that was one of the first big book series that we had to put a new structure in place. We had to put an interesting deal structure in place, um, something that felt like it respect it was respectful to Karen Slaughter, the author, who is an incredible global best selling author. Um, and that ended up being uh one of the first really big deals we did at the studio. It's one of the biggest deals I've ever put together. Um, and as a result of that, I've become close with Karen, and she's incredible. And um, I think the vision, it's also goes back to kind of the last question, which was I think the vision for Will Trend, Will Trend is a hyper violent, super dark series. It's a it's a great crime series, but it's very violent. It's it's it's really, really graphic. Um, and it's really, it's got a really dedicated fan base. And so I think when that originally sold to network TV versus streaming, I think there were concerns with the executives and even the readers that it was going to be a different series than what was on the page. And I think ultimately what came away with that is it it is still really loyal to the source material. It's still um, it's still very much that will try and character, but it also is its own kind of thing. It kind of lives in its own little world. Um, but it's something that I know Karen is proud of, that the executives are proud of, that I find compulsively watchable, that I really love. And it's so nice to see that the series, as a result, has gotten new readers, and subsequently the show is doing really well too. So I think it's a great example of kind of firing on all cylinders across the board.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

Thanks. The last sort of real question before the last question. Imagine a few years ago, the it was all sort of your your world was mostly just people who've written books. But what what's the balance now between uh books, podcasts, TikTok, and who knows what other social media platforms Noah and I are too old to know about?

SPEAKER_03 36:35

The balance uh being what we're optioning here at the studio and developing.

SPEAKER_00 36:39

Yeah, in terms of like if you've got 10 projects that are coming in, like how many of them are from books and how many of them are from alternative sources?

SPEAKER_03 36:45

I'd still probably say that 75% of the IP we're bringing to the studio is probably book-based. And a lot of that is just because um the publishing industry, again, it it kind of has that that they they do a little bit of the development process for us. It's a little bit of proof of concept. It comes with the existing reader fan base. So I think there's proof in the pudding. Um, and I think a lot of executives trust books and and the audience, and they'd walk into a Barnes and Noble and they can see it sitting on a bookshelf, and there's something about holding that that's tangible. I think um we do option podcasts, we do option articles. Uh, I don't know if I've seen the the same translation of um viewers to podcast or article adaptations that I have as books. I don't know if you read an article and then the you know, two years later the adaptation comes out and you're like, I love that article, I'm gonna watch that show. So um I think it's a little bit more complicated where where you find the value sometimes in an article versus a book and what you're paying for that, especially because an article is also public domain and you don't really need it to tell that story. So um that's a long way of saying a majority of them is still books for a variety of reasons. But again, we're at the end of the day, we're looking for great stories. And wherever we find those, whether it's on TikTok, in an article, um, or some random social media post, like we're just looking for interesting people who have a great voice or a great story to tell.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

Okay, that's good. Thank you. So you're telling me there's still a chance that one of my three gets lost in the TV show.

SPEAKER_03 38:17

We had an executive, like, we've started optioning some fan fiction where like that, which is extremely popular. And so I've had to have multiple calls with like our legal team to be like, this is kind of Star Wars fan fiction where they've got these two characters that fall in love, but we want to tell that story with different characters. And we've had to talk through what that looks like. So even in the four years that I've done this, we've seen we've seen the marketplace change so dramatically as to what we're optioning, whether it's a short story from Wattpad. Um, we've done a first look deal with a short story writer who we are developing a lot of things with, who reverse engineers IP for us. So there's just so many different avenues of doing it now. And so many of these people who traditionally would not find representation or be able to get their voice out there in the marketplace have benefited from TikTok or social media, whereas they might have not been able to do that three years ago, even.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

Thank you. Um, so look, it is time, unfortunately, for the final question. Um now, normally we ask for a sort of single piece of advice for somebody wanting to enter the industry. I'm no offense to people who are aspiring to come into the world to do your role, but actually I think the slightly more interesting uh question, if I may, is uh what would a single piece of advice be to authors or creators of any type who could end up crossing your path in terms of like in terms of increasing the chance of something actually turning into a TV show of the type that they might want? So what would your advice be to somebody who you might meet in your role rather than somebody who wants to do your role?

SPEAKER_03 39:58

I think I think a lot of content creators and authors and people in general are not um working in one silo anymore. You're not just a screenwriter anymore, you're not just an author, everyone wants to be a multi-hyphen and do a lot of things, and they're looking for different ways of maximizing their value and their brand. Um, and I think we get a lot of reps or people asking us, authors asking, you know, should we be writing specifically for a very specific mandate or a bucket? Should we be writing our books with the idea that they're going to be adapted to television? Um, and my advice is always don't do that. Write what you love, write what you're excited about, write what you're passionate about. Because at the end of the day, like I've said, great storytelling shines through. And we're going to find those great stories. And yes, of course, I've got white spaces or buckets that I'm trying to hit, whether it's an erotic thriller or a romance fantasy. Um, but there's also those things that come out of left field or the things that the buyers don't know they want until we bring it to them. And it's up to us to find those stories and give them a place at whether it's at USG or at one of our competitors. And I think what's so great about the marketplace right now is there's there's a home for every book or piece of IP out there. It just needs to find the champion who really understands it and supports it and is right for it. And I've lost plenty of books where a great example is I lost a book last year to Phoebe uh Waller Bridges at Amazon. It was this awesome book called Signed Here by this author, Claudia Lux. And I was so excited about it and passionate about it and loved it. Um, and the agent called me and said, Yeah, we're gonna give it to Phoebe. And I was like, Yeah, that's where it should go. I'm gonna watch the shit out of that show. Like, I want to see that show. It should not be with me. And um, I think that that was just a great example of a book finding the person who was perfect for it. And I think traditionally we wouldn't have known where that goes, and it's definitely got a home for it. So um authors should write what they love and are excited about and let the their champion come find them.

SPEAKER_01 41:58

Thank you, Jordan. You've inspired me to not only continue writing my spec uh screenplays, but also to write a book that creates a feeding frenzy, which is of course easier said than done. But thank you for coming on our show. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 42:14

Thank you. Thank you for listening to this episode of Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss brought to you by Scriptation. Thank you as ever to James Launch for the music, and thank you to our loyal listeners. And if there's any showrunners out there who want to hear their fellow showrunners abused uh and ruffled around and put under the microscope so you can hear their stories of rejection failure in adversity, please send them our way. If you are interested in following us on social media, no, I've lost track.

SPEAKER_01 43:00

I am at NEBslin on Twitter or X or whatever Elon Musk now calls it. And thanks to Elon Musk, I'm also at Noah Ebslin on Hive, Scoutable, Blue Sky, Threads, Mastodon, MySpace, French, and I'm sure a thousand more.