Take 107 - Producer, Writer, Illustrator David Kirschner, Hocus Pocus, An American Tail, Frailty, Chucky

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for sure, dozens of unproduced scripts literathing the floor.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_03 0:20

For every success, there is months, sometimes even years, of painful failure. This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

That's the normal path to be able to persevere. It all bounces off you.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

That process takes because that doesn't happen overnight. I was being told by my manager it's yours to lose, and I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking, like, well, that's it for me. I blew my one big shot. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_03 1:03

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SPEAKER_01 1:25

Damn, I think this is where they actually want me to talk about how much I love it. And I do love it, it's great. Its collating function transformed me from the messiest writer in Hollywood to, well, ever so slightly less messy. My wife might have other things to say about that. Sitha listeners can get a free month of scriptation by going to scriptation.com backslash Sitha.

SPEAKER_03 1:47

And for those of you who don't understand slightly drawly American accents, that's scriptation.com backslash S-I-T-H-A. Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. I am, as ever, your non-entertainment co-host, Dan Rutstein.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

And I am your industry co-host, Noah Epslin. On today's Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, I'm thrilled to introduce screenwriter, TV writer, and producer David Kirschner to the show. David wrote an American tale, American Tale Five Well Goes West, Hocus Pocus 1, Hocus Pocus 2, amongst many other beloved movies. He's also created the TV series Gravedale High and The Pirates of Darkwater, amongst many other. As a producer, he has 51 credits to his name, including, but not limited to, the Child's Play series, the Adams Family Animated Series, Titan AE, the Flintstones movie, the Curious George movie, the Chuck E franchise, and too many others to name here. Welcome, David. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_03 3:01

So given it's Halloween week, uh we should start with talking about Hocus Pocus. Um partly because it's a good week to talk about it, but also my understanding is the story of Hocus Pocus fits into the uh failure, adversity, um, and all of those things elements that uh our podcast talks about. So um David, tell us about tell us about that whole process.

SPEAKER_02 3:34

So you about my failure at the beginning of this, yes, and uh, and it was. Um so uh hocus pocus. Um today it's pretty much known as uh a very beloved movie, and I want to pinch myself constantly for the that fact. But long before that happened, uh there was a very difficult road of not just getting it made, but just what the reception was to that film. I'll I'll start with getting it made. Um I I had presented uh an American tale, which was my first film, to Jeffrey Katzenberg at Disney. And uh and his response was uh, who the F wants to see a film about a Jewish mouse? And I said, Well, who wants to see a film about a wooden puppet? It's where you take that character and where you take the emotions and the journey. And he said, Yeah, nice try. And that was the end of it. I I did get a note from him when it came out because I was very fortunate that that though uh uh Disney passed on it, that uh Spielberg, Steven Spielberg felt very differently and and bought it in the room. And um, so I had this Spielberg pixie dust on me. And so uh he wanted Jeffrey called and said, Well, what else do you have? And I said, I I really don't have anything. And he said, Well, there's there's got to be something that you're thinking about. And I said, Well, there's this bedtime story I've been telling our daughters. He said, Great, bring it in. And I all of this was just because he had passed on an American tale, it became enormously successful, and as a result, all of a sudden I had more talent. Um, clearly that that the talent didn't change one way or another. So um I went into pitch to him and uh and I asked if I could get the room for half an hour before. I hung a contemporary uh uh broom from the ceiling, a contemporary mop, and an electrolux vacuum cleaner with the engine hollowed out from the ceiling. I I just created everything for them to walk in and hear and smell their childhood. And anyway, the bottom line was they they did buy it. I'm not sure it had anything to do with my story, other than the fact that of the peel Spielberg pixie dust. And uh and we move forward. It would go through many, many uh, I wrote the story, but it would go through many uh screenwriters to bring it to fruition. And it took us nine years to finally get it to the screen, and that finally happens, and we're released against Jurassic Park. A Halloween movie is released in July, and we were dead. The worst reviews of my career. Um uh, you know, barely a bleep on box office, and it was just kind of a joke and and then gone. I mean, this is the honest got truth. I was in tears that weekend because it meant so much to me. And uh all of my stories that I create do, they come from a place of childhood, just my own experiences, whatever. So they become very important to me. But this one, more than anything, because it was a story I created for our daughters, gone. And and that was it. And it it would it would take about almost somewhere between seven and ten years for it to grow into what has happened since, and that it's become this enormous thing. But boy, it it was enormously painful, and uh I really thought that was the end of my career. And I believed in it so much, it just made sense to me that people would would enjoy this because it's it's Halloween. Uh there were no family films for Halloween, and I just wanted to create something that would would be a fun time, but something that would make you think of Halloween. I never believed that it 30 years later that it would be what it's become, but uh that's enormously exciting to me. But it was enormously painful, just that that all that rejection and kind of cruelness about what critics thought of of the film.

SPEAKER_03 8:06

I mean, this is an extraordinary start to the to the podcast. There's so much to to think about just from that answer. But in terms of what you were saying about obviously being in tears, being devastated, um I know obviously things would have happened in the sevens, 10 years before it suddenly became popular, but winding forward to that time, did some of the people when it became popular, A, did that make up for the feeling of sadness when it wasn't the first time? Um, and also did externally maybe some of the people who I'm sure they didn't not not so much the critics, but people in the industry who maybe sort of said things or passed on things immediately after that because you just had something that bombed. Today's all send apology notes and at least show some remorse for writing you off when the thing actually ended up being a success. No.

SPEAKER_02 9:05

No, they no, they didn't. And what's amazing about this business is you know, okay, it would take seven to ten years for it to change. For the most part, most of those people were gone. You know, this business is is so it's for it's just forever changing. And it's like a kaleidoscope of executives. It's just forever moving and morphing into something else. And uh so I no, no, those those people never. I mean, in fairness, Jeffrey Katzenberg on an American tale, he did write me a note saying, Dear David, now you know who the F is going to go see a film about a Jewish mouse Mazzletov. So I on that side, I I felt you know very good that that he acknowledged that, but it would be hard not to. I mean, here Steven Spielberg's name is on it, and it it outperformed anything that Disney had done to that point, and for a film that he passed on. So um, and by the way, everybody passed on it. It wasn't just uh, I showed it to George Lucas also, and I never even got a response. I had a just a one-on-one meeting with George, which was so exciting, but he didn't respond in the least.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

So fascinating. There's so many things that, as Dan said, that I want to like latch on to, so many questions I want to ask. I do want to preface this by saying I told my wife who I was interviewing before this podcast, and she's like, he wrote American Tale. Like that is such a beloved and hocus pocus gets turned on every Halloween. So we are we are fans of yours in this house. I'm sure those fans of yours all across the country. You said something though, it's a very little comment you made that I want to kind of talk about, ask about for a second. Obviously, as I did the intro, you're you're both a writer and a producer. You do both, you wear both hats. And in this thing, you said you had the idea uh for Hocus Pocus, American Tale as well, but Hocus Pocus, uh, they bought it. You you obviously, as a writer, did a draft of it, and then you said that you guys went through nine other writers. As a writer myself, who you're often trying to protect your soul authorship on something, you're like, oh my, I don't want any other writers to come on. Oh, it's so devastating. It sounds like not only were you part of the process of hiring other writers, but you, you know, you were kind of overseeing those scripts. Can you talk a little bit? Did you fire yourself as writer and add a new writer? What's the egoist process of that?

SPEAKER_02 11:24

You know, I I wrote the story. Um, at that point I had never written a screenplay. And it wasn't even in my thought process to say, and I want to write this. Um Mick Harris wrote the draft that really um moved things forward. Uh Mick is known for horror. We've known each other for 30-something years. He was head story editor on Amazing Stories for Spielberg, which is where we met. And when Disney said they they want to they want to move forward with it, I had suggested Mick to come and write this. Mick Mick can be really scary. And um, and from from my original story and Mick's original script, the it was a good deal more frightening than what you see on screen today. I mean, I'm amazed when I look back on it that Disney bought a story about three evil witches that sucked the life out of children. And uh, and and you see it before your eyes. You see this sweet little girl and her life force is sucked out of her. And looking back on it, I think I benefited by being so naive in so many ways. I mean, the idea of even creating a story about a Jewish mouse, you know, just in theory, on paper, there isn't a big market for that. And yet it seemed to have transcended. But I think there was a naivete to me that um that there's times that I wish I still possessed because you just believe in something, so you go in and make it happen. And I I must confess, there there are voices in my head that say, oh no, they'll never go for that. They'll they'll they'll pass on this, they'll pass on that, because they're heat-seeking missiles and they're they're always after what is the hottest trend. And very often my ideas are are not the hottest trend, but they they seem to catch on. Takes a while, but they seem to catch on.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

I I guess my thank you for the answer. I guess my I have like a two-part connected question to that. Did you feel when Hocus Pocus came out that it was the movie you set out to make, the story you set out to make? You were you happy with the end product and surprised when the reviews came in that were that weren't awful and you're like, no, I stand by this. This is a good piece of work. And then subsequently, in those you said six or seven years before it caught on, you know, obviously you were continuing to work, but you said you were worried you'd never work again. How do you sort of reinvent yourself as a producer, as a writer in this town to keep working when you're coming off something that, you know, that critics, you know, obviously had it took issue with?

SPEAKER_02 14:07

I think I was lucky enough that I had planted a bunch of seeds, if you will, over um over those years. And so um, not that I was ever expecting with the Chucky franchise for that to be anything other than one film, but it became many films. So that there were those to go back to. And um, and I had planted other seeds and sold other products, um, projects in in the course of those years. So those were in development. And uh so I I think I was fortunate that I that I had that. And I've always believed that you have to, just using my uh my garden analogy here, um, that you you you have to you have to plant seeds, you you have to water those plants, you have to take care of them, you have to uh in fall, you have to prune those those those projects, you just everything to move them forward before you can reap uh a harvest from them. And by the way, many of them have have have died on the vine, so to speak, just using that analogy further. But I I've been lucky enough that that we've been able to bear enough fruit uh on this ridiculous analogy that I'm going down here. But uh that that's really uh that I think that really saved me. Um, you know, the Spielberg Pixie Dust, I cannot, I cannot underscore how important that was in my career. I mean, just uh, you know, that lasted for a bunch of years. And I would wind up doing three films with him, and and that that was that helped enormously. Enormously. I I don't know what would have happened without that pixie dust.

SPEAKER_03 15:54

I I'm fascinated by the Hocus Poker story. I remember we had uh we had John Rogers on the show talking about Catwoman, um, which was not a big success. Um with Hocus Poker, in the years where it wasn't yet a success, as it were, um when you were having meetings or sort of working the Hollywood circuit, did you talk about it as a sort of, you know, it really should have done better, I really believe in that project? Or see, did you sort of not talk about it at all? And then when it became a success later, did you suddenly start talking about it again?

SPEAKER_02 16:33

No, you know, I it it really made no sense to me. I mean, the end product to answer the the question that was asked before, the end product of it, uh, first of all, I think, and I'm a big believer in this, uh, and that is the collaboration uh in in cinema. And in in my case, in things that I've created, the people that I've been fortunate enough to work with have made it better. They've added to it. And and though there were things that Disney dropped that I was disappointed in, there were so many things that came to be uh in Hocus Pocus that I had never thought of. For instance, there's the there's a big musical number where Bet Midler sings, I put a spell on you. And when Kenny Ortega, the wonderful director that directed that film and brought so much to it, said to me, I'm gonna put a uh a big musical number here. And I said, You're gonna put a musical number in the middle of this adventure where the clock is ticking, you're gonna slow it down. I think that's a huge mistake. And he said, David, trust me, the audience is going to love this. And and I really did trust him because everything else he was doing was so great for the film. But I was really concerned about this. And by the way, I was a thousand percent wrong. It's it's I think everybody's favorite moments in the film, and Kenny Ortega was a billion percent right. And I I was wrong. And and I love watching that scene, but I also love saying that I was so dead wrong with uh with with my fear of of a musical number in the middle of this Halloween adventure.

SPEAKER_03 18:15

So uh moving away from from Hoker Pokers, I'm gonna ask a question. I've been told off twice by Canadian guests for asking this question, but I'm gonna ask it anyway, which is um we were told in advance of of meeting you by people who know you that you're incredibly nice. Um, now you're on the show, you do seem incredibly nice. Hollywood is not necessarily full of very nice people, and also the way the industry works, um, it sort of chews people up and throws them out the other side. How have you managed to be so successful and have so much you wanted to get made made while still, unless you're actually not nice, and this is just brilliant acting, while being very nice?

SPEAKER_02 19:05

Um it's something that my wife and I have discussed so many times. Um, because yeah, you know, my wife said, You're the nicest guy. And look, if anybody's gonna say that, you know, look, the woman loves me, but you know, she's she's very smart and very honest with me. And she said, you know, maybe you need to pull back on that to protect yourself. And I said, but if if I do, and I'm not even sure I could, but if I do, am I losing the very things that help me create? And that I just see the world different, that I cry at dog food commercials, that I'm a very emotional person. Um I I wouldn't do it any other way. And maybe I'd be much more successful. I I don't know. I just know that I can look at myself in the mirror, that I can look at my kids and the way my kids look at me, and now our grandchildren. And it's it's something that means more than anything. First and foremost, by the way, my family has always been number one way before this business. I I love what I do. I love from the time I was a little boy, I drew pictures of creatures and monsters, I loved comic books, I love movies. But I don't love this business. I think it, I don't know if I really don't understand this, if it's nurture or nature, what brings people to it, the Harvey Weinsteins of the world, people that just behave so, and I'm not even talking about his repugnant uh uh issues with sex, but just the kind of person he was that he just came into a room with the idea of intimidating to be able to get what he wanted. I'm not even sure if he wanted it. He just he wanted to win at it. And and I've been there, that's how I can say that, and had this guy scream the F-word in 12 different versions to me in my face as he's uh screaming and spits going everywhere because he's not getting his way on me changing the composer that he wanted. Uh you know, I I I'm not sure what it is. I'm not sure, again, if it's nurture or nature of people that are attracted to this business because of money, fame, whatever. I mean, I don't I don't have fame. And people know my movies, but they they don't know me. And I that's just the way I want it. I kind of enjoy living in the shadows. I'm doing this show today, but I it's something uh that appealed to me because I always want to be honest about everything and my journey uh in my personal life, in in my professional life. And I I worked very hard to try to be a very decent person and fair to people. And so many people were so good to me. And I I mean those they were my role models, and I I I want to be able to do the same for others and treat people well. It sounds all like a Hallmark card with what I'm saying, but it's the truth, and it's who I am for better or worse.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

Fascinating. You bring up, I mean, you bring up being yelled at by by Harvey Weinstein, which actually leads into my next question, which is uh, what do you think? I mean, your your career spans so much in so many projects. Uh so what has been your worst Hollywood moment? And conversely, where you just think, I'm quitting, I'm done, I'm out of here, it's not worth the toll on me and my family. Conversely, what is your best Hollywood moment where you're like, it doesn't get better than this?

SPEAKER_02 22:45

Um, yeah, my worst is probably uh an amalgamation of of many moments. It was that weekend with Hocus Pocus. I I, you know, I've been pretty lucky, honestly. I mean, I I've certainly had films that have failed. I made a film called Catstone Dance that I am so proud of. Um uh Gene Kelly choreographed it, Randy Newman wrote the music for it. Uh it shockingly, shockingly won the American Animation Award, beating Disney for the first time ever. Disney had never been beaten before, um, with their Hercules and Space Jam, the first Space Jam with uh Michael Jordan. Uh and uh it was a film about prejudice and using animals again, as I did with an American tale. And uh it it, you know, it it came and went, and yet, yet afterwards it it won a lot of awards. And um, I mean, you know, that was a very painful, painful situation because so many talented people came together to work on that film and make it so good. And uh it uh yeah, that and what happened was that Warner's bought Turner. Um, I was I was uh chairman of Hanna Barbera, and this was a film I wanted to make, and I believed in the filmmakers, and uh and so we moved forward with this film. And and by the time the film was ready to come out, Warner's had bought Hanna Barbera, and they just they just they didn't, it's not even dump it, they didn't do anything, and um it just kind of came and went, but within the animation community, and I didn't realize it at the time, it was so beloved and beloved, and um as a result of that, that's how it won the American Animation Award. But you know, I mean, you know, I've done this for a long time. As you said, there's 51 or whatever the number was that you said, projects. And yeah, in there, there are failures for sure, and you know, and and painful ones. I would say the best moment of my career, um, not my personal life, but the best moment of my career was um that day Kathy Kennedy had come to uh who was Stephen's producing partner. She now runs all of Lucas films. She stepped into it for George Lucas, and there was an article on me that said, Shy young daydreamer brings his dreams to life in the LA Times. And she had read this and she called and said, I'd like to meet you. Is there something you'd like to maybe show uh Steven Spielberg? And it's just like, What? Oh my god, I can't believe this. So she came to my office and I presented to Kathy, and she didn't smile, she didn't cry, she she didn't, she just kind of took it in and then said, Can I use your phone? This is 19 uh 84, July 3rd, 1984, so before cell phones, and she called Stephen and said, You need to see this kid's work like now. And whatever Stephen said in a Charlie Brown kind of wow, wow, wow way, she got off the phone and said, Stephen's having a 4th of July party tomorrow. Why don't you and your wife come half an hour before, present this to Stephen, then you can stay for the party. But first of all, I've never been invited to any Hollywood party. And here I'm invited to a party with my wife at Spielberg's house, and you know, over there is Sean Connery, and over there is Harrison Ford. And it's just like, oh my God, we just kind of stood in the corner like like tourists. And um, but what was exciting before that was, and I was shaking like a leaf to make to meet 1984 Spielberg. And I walk in, and there he is in a pair of shorts, uh, Spielberg baseball head of the period. Um, on the walls were the most magnificent original animated cells. He was sitting on a Looney Tunes rug, um, doing um uh store going through storyboards. And uh and I I just I looked at all this and I thought, this guy's just like me. I mean, he's a nerd just like me. He loves all the same thing, animated cells on his walls. And and I proceeded to present an American tale, and he got on the floor with me and was looking at everything. And then he looked up and said, What excites me more than what I see before me is what you still have up there. And as you mature in this business, how that will come out. Let's make a movie. And guys, it has never been as easy as that moment. And my first film, and it has never been as easy because Stephen had the power to just say, We're making this movie. And that's exactly what happened. And and he saw something that others didn't. Again, I was so naive in my this story. It was really my grandmother's story coming to America from Russia, and and her little um brother, Feibel, being lost on the ship, and they thought that he'd been washed overboard. And and my children never got a chance to meet her. And so I created this story, never dreaming that it would become what it did. And again, you know, you have Steven Spielberg and his involvement in it, Don Buluth with his enormous talent, and the the two writers, Judy Fronberg and Tony Geis, just you know, wrote magnificent screenplay from my pages. It was very exciting. And I, you know, I designed my characters from it, and and Don Bluth made those characters better. Um, so it it you know, it really turned into something wonderful from you know the first couple rejections that I got on it.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

I think we've had, probably speaking for Dan as well, we've had what, a hundred over a hundred guests on our podcast. That might be the best story. It's definitely up there as one of our best. I mean, just fits all the parameters, obviously, you know, uh, about just overcoming pitching and whatever. It's such an amazing story. But, you know, this is and I'm gonna apologize in advance. We focus on failure, we prepped you, we're gonna ask you failure questions, and we did, and we do, but you've mentioned a couple of times that your ideas are unconventional, unconventional, like the Jewish mouse story coming to America, the three witches that are evil and suck the soul out of kids, like yet you have uh over 50 credits. So that, you know, for people who are coming from the outside or listening, like that is unheard of. I mean, people get like 10 or 5 or 8 in a career. I think Tarantino is finishing, you know, nine into 10. It takes years to make a movie, and you have, you know, you've you've you've made so many. What do you think is the secret to your success and turning what you're calling a mediocre idea? Maybe it's not, obviously, it's not. It resonated with so many people, but an idea that is harder to sell into something that someone wants to turn into a movie, where Spielberg says at the end of 10 minutes, or Kathleen Kennedy say the end of a few minutes of 30 or 40 minutes with you, you know, not that we're gonna buy this or we're gonna look at it, we're gonna develop it, we're making this movie. What is the secret to that?

SPEAKER_02 29:58

I don't know. I think it's alchemy and getting the right person in the room to hear your story. I remember once, um, and she's an amazing executive, amazing producer, Nina Jacobson. And I went in and pitched, it was towards the end of the day. She clearly was tired, so tired, in fact, that she laid on her couch, literally, literally laid down on her couch, uh as the writers and I pitched this story. She asked for a bag of chips from her assistant and a coke, and she's laying on the couch. And I'm thinking, God, is she present in this? And then the more time went on, and the more it looked like she was so sleepy from this. I was getting aggravated and and not just a little upset. And but I, you know, I kept my cool. I always try to be that nice guy. And uh, and at the end, she just kind of sat up and she just kind of thought for a second and said, okay, we'll buy it. And I just thought I know nothing. I know nothing. I was so positive that Nina was bored and didn't want to hear it. And I and I guess I brought my other insecurities into it from pitching for so many years and people that that behave in in my mind what was a rude fashion. And yet, you know, once she said yes, she was the greatest person in the world. But, you know, it's it's so frustrating when you're you're pitching and someone seems so distracted and you put so much into your storytelling. Um, in that case, that's only happened once when someone appeared so bored and then bought it. But, you know, it's it would take um any of these stories. Like when I tell you of of uh Cats Don't Dance, you know, we were six months into it. And Amy Pascal, who used to run Sony, but before she ran Sony, she ran Ted Turner's uh uh feature division. And uh she decided, even though we were six or seven months into pre-production on Cats Don't Dance, she decided to bring her friend Don Steele in. And Don has since sadly passed away. But Don came in and said, instead of cats, let's make it ducks. And it's just like we've put seven months into this thing. We have storyboards of every scene, we have character designs. And uh and I fought bitterly, and I I I'm sure they would say I was not so nice because I couldn't believe, and I had my whole crew that if I would have said, oh yeah, yeah, just you know, that's what the executives want, so let's do it. I think, I think these people would have walked out of me, and rightly so. Um, and you know, we we stood by what we believed in, and it it turned out well. But there's always such adversity in this stuff and fighting for what you believe in. And, you know, there are great executives out there that are really smart, and there are executives out there that, you know, it's just easier to say no. They can keep their job by just saying no. And, you know, and that's frustrating. Today, I'm not sure. If I was just starting out, I'm not sure what kind of career I would have. I'm not sure if the like so many films that I've made would have seen the light of day, some something like secondhand lions. I think that worked out because Bob Shea, who ran New Line Studios, we had a relationship. Doesn't mean he was easy on me, but he believed in me. And and we we were able to make that film that that weirdly turned out to be really, really successful, but it was still not a new line kind of film. It's it's it was really more of a Disney kind of film. In any of these, there were tough moments. The director, on in my opinion, became just an ego maniacal person and had had directed a tiny little movie that no one ever heard of that was just a local movie, literally. And um, and here he, I mean, he's he said to me at one point, and I fought bitterly for this guy to be able to direct the film. He wrote it, and it was a fantastic screenplay. And but it was it was really hard working on that film with him because he at one point turns to me and with his hand pounding on his chest and saying, I am James Cameron, I am Cameron Crow, I you need to listen to me. And it just like you directed one tiny film that the studio just said, Are you kidding me? When I showed it to them, but I stood by him and we we had to do reshoots, there was a lot that had to be done. But at the end of the day, with editing and changing things, we made it, we made it work. But every one of these, you know, that that's where all the gray hair comes from. It's you know, it's just it's you know, it's it's fighting for these things. And and it's it's always like pushing a Steinway baby grand piano up a very steep hill to just get these things, not not only for them to say, give you a green light, but once you have that green light to try to make something that I feel in here anyway, that people are going to enjoy. And I'm not a you know, uh I'm not I'm pretty sure I'll never win an Academy Award. I'm a popcorn guy. I, you know, I love horror movies and I love animation and I love comic strips. That that is a world. When I went to film school, I didn't fit in at all. And I mean, not until George Lucas would release Star Wars did people start to even look at some of the stuff that I was trying to cook up.

SPEAKER_03 35:45

So look, David, you you're making this quite hard for us because this is meant to be a rejection failure and a versity podcast, and you're just almost too successful. But um I think a question I'd love to know the answer to is you have obviously uh succeeded in lots of different ways. Um but uh as you are now, I think I'm allowed to say this, nearer the end of your career than the beginning. Um glad I didn't offend you. Um when you look back, what regrets do you have? Is there a particular project that didn't make it you wished uh you had, or is there a whole genre that you wanted to get into and couldn't break into? As you as you look back on this extraordinary body of work, where is the regret professionally in terms of what what you didn't achieve?

SPEAKER_02 36:42

Um, you know, there's there's always those that got away that I I believed in. Um, you know, over the course of COVID, I've I've written two um stories in great depth, and I've done about 60 pieces of art to back those up. And uh, you know, uh the jury's out. I'm I'm gonna begin to pitch those and we'll see what happens. And and then it may be part two for uh for another uh uh afternoon visit with you guys uh to talk about failures if if those don't uh happen. Uh, you know, there was a script that I love uh that I have called Boris and Bella, and it's about Boris Karloff and Bella Legosi. Um three very talented writers wrote it. Uh it's a wonderful murder mystery takes place in 1947. It just hits everything for me, and I can't sell it. Every studio has passed on it, and I I still don't understand it. I'm not sure if it's a because it's a period piece, and some young executives have said to me they had no idea who Boris Karloff and Belo Legosi uh were or are. Um, and as a result of that, no one cares. And I said, it doesn't matter, they're just two old men in this story. It's like grumpy old men. And I, you know, I can't sell it. I'm gonna keep trying, but I I can't sell it. And and I have great regret on that because I I would love for that to be part of my filmography. Again, not my story, but I just I just love this so much. And the things that I get involved in, I don't I don't just do things to get them made. I I've been fortunate that I don't have to do that. I I the things that that I have this passion for are projects that just mean a lot to me. And those are the only kind that I really go out there with.

SPEAKER_03 38:41

So you um trying to think of the best way to phrase this, you've obviously you've mentioned a couple of times that certainly when you were doing things, you didn't quite understand how the industry works and how decisions get made, and which worked for you in some ways. Now that you you are where you are in the industry and you've obviously made things and had access to very senior people, and I imagine talked about all of these things. Would you say you understand the industry yet?

SPEAKER_02 39:13

No, no, I I don't. I'm the only thing that has changed is that I'm less naive, and and that that worked for me oddly. Um, but I'm yeah, I'm I'm less naive than than I was, and probably in some ways that hurts me because you know there was just kind of this Mickey Rudy, Judy Garland, let's put on a show attitude that I had. And um I remember Kathy Kennedy at the the Amblin Christmas party, she came over and my wife and I were standing there, kind of wallflowers, and um she's and this is right after um Child's Play, Chucky, had come out, the first one, and she said, Congratulations on another success. And I it stopped me because I I I didn't even think of those terms. I just thought you make movies and people like those movies, and then you make some more movies. And I never thought, I guess she's right, though those two were successful. I but I I never, I just until that moment I never thought of that. And you know, and then there would be you know failures along the line two. Child's play three didn't do much business, didn't get great reviews, um, but four did. So, you know, it's it's it you just have to keep trying because and this is what I always say if it's not you, it's gonna be somebody else. And I I speak at high schools, I speak at colleges all across the country, and that's something that I and and I remember thinking that when I was in my mid-20s, that it over frustrations. And I remember thinking, if it's not me, it's going to be somebody else. So I just need to keep keep at it, just keep going out there and pounding the bushes. Because my family had no connections to the entertainment business. I lost my dad when I was very young. My mom was a secretary. I we had no connections at all. And um, you know, it it all kind of started for me just because of Neil Diamond, of all people. So that's how my career really began.

SPEAKER_01 41:18

All right, I I was gonna ask a different question, uh, but I'm throwing it out the window. Uh, I really quickly, because we're running out of time. How did Neil Diamond start your career?

SPEAKER_02 41:28

Okay. I was working at Tower Records, which was like the record store, and you know, every one of the Beatles separately had come in there. Anybody that was anybody would come in there. And I had my portfolio behind the uh the front desk. I was the cashier, and um, anybody that looked like they were in the entertainment business, I asked if they would look at my portfolio, and everybody looked like they were in the entertainment business in my mind. And what what happened was that a a guy came in dressed very conservatively, and he was Neil Diamond's music publisher, um uh Elton John's uh Dylan's the band, the nicest man. And I asked if I could show him this, and he said, I would love that. Just great guy. And um I presented it to him, and he and he seemed really taken. And I thought, you know what? I'm gonna do a graphite pencil portrait of Neil Diamond. I'm gonna give it to David Rosner, the the publisher, hoping Neil would see it and then ask me to come work for him. So naive, it's so Schwabs-like, right? That famous story of being discovered in Schwabs. And uh and it's exactly what happened. Neil asked to meet me, and um, I met him and you know, I think Neil's 82 now, but at that point he was like 36 or 37, and you know, cool rock star, handsome, smoking a cigarette. And he just said, How'd you like to do a sheet music cover for me? And I said, Oh, I would love that. So I did it, and it won an award. And then I started staring at it, and I looked and thought, those characters are really cool. I think I can do something with them with merchandising. You know, I was 19. And and uh and I said to Neil, can I just buy those characters the rights back? And he said, Well, have your attorney contact mine. And I said, I don't have an attorney. And he said, I'll have my attorney write up something. And I I was terrified because I didn't know what this was gonna say. It's like 12 pages of it's like reading Latin. I had no idea what it even meant. And at the very end, he sold me the rights to those characters for $1.50. And uh, and that those characters would become Rose Petal Place, which was that was in that became in my early 20s. Hallmark was my partner in the General Mills toy group. And That was the story that Kathy read about Kathy Kennedy. And that brought me to Stephen's attention, all because of Neil Diamond. And that's how it worked. And the and the guy is like the greatest guy in the world. He sent us on our honeymoon because I couldn't afford to take a honeymoon. Just, you know, it was that was pretty special to be a part. I often feel like Forrest Gump being in the right place at the right time, meeting people that I had just read about or listened to their music or seen their films. And I feel so fortunate to have met so many of these people. And so many of them were so kind to me.

SPEAKER_01 44:37

I'd love to imagine the thought process in his head. Should I charge him a dollar, a hundred dollars, a thousand dollars? How about a dollar fifty seemed like the right amount?

SPEAKER_02 44:49

That's a I think he he looked at me and knew I probably couldn't afford uh a dollar seventy-five. So uh so he was so kind.

SPEAKER_01 44:57

Settled on the right amount. Um, okay, and I I think you know, again, you say this, but like we I would go on and on if we could, if we had time. But unfortunately, we are uh at our last question. Um, and the question is, which we ask everybody who comes on this podcast, if you could give one piece of advice to somebody joining this business and you can pick producer, writer, uh what would it be?

SPEAKER_02 45:23

Well, I you know, it it sounds so cliche. Believing in yourself is so important because if you don't, no one else is going to believe in you. Um, and believe me, the myself, you know, but that that that belief has been shaken many times. Um, but you pick yourself up and move forward. Um, and uh yeah, I you know, I I feel good that I've never sold my soul. I've I've never I've never done anything that I can think of. I hope there's not others, but that would say otherwise. But I I don't think I've ever done anything to purposely screw over somebody or take advantage. Um I I try really try to go the other way. And again, what I said to you guys about five minutes ago, if it's not you, it's gonna be someone else. So if you do believe in yourself, put everything you have into it and and and keep that that mantra in your head that it's gonna be somebody because this is this is a machine that needs lots of product for as we as we saw during COVID, you know, when people are just home streaming constantly, and this house is one of them, they need constant product and and and there's so many different areas that you can fit into, whether it's animation or or horror or drama or musical, whatever it is. Uh, I mean, I love all those things. And and people have said to me, you need to choose one lane or the other. And I I can't. That's the stuff that I love. Kathy Kennedy said to me, wait, are you a producer? Are you an illustrator? Are you a writer? And I said, Yes. And she said, it confuses people. You you can't, you need to really stay in one lane. And I honestly, that's probably the only advice I didn't listen to with Kathy. She had lots of great advice, but I uh this is what I've always done, and it's helped me walk into a room and people to see what's in my head with my illustrations or sculptures of of different worlds.

SPEAKER_03 47:28

Amazing. So look, normally I try and come up with some pithy or clever line to end the podcast, but instead I'm just gonna say uh David Kirsten, it's been an absolute privilege to have you on our show. Really enjoyed, frankly, all of your answers. I know Noah doesn't fanboy very often, but um, I think he's noticeably very excited to have you on. And I I'm honored that you were our guest. This was an amazing episode.

SPEAKER_02 47:53

You guys are so kind, too kind. I I uh appreciate that. And it honestly, in a lot of ways, it felt like a uh a therapy session to be able to talk about the failures and the pain that go with those failures. And there's always going to be failures, no matter what.

SPEAKER_03 48:10

Thank you very much indeed. Really appreciate your time.

SPEAKER_02 48:13

Thank you. Say well, thank you.

SPEAKER_03 48:40

Thank you as ever to James Launch for the music, and thank you to our loyal listeners. And if there's any showrunners out there who want to hear their fellow showrunners abused uh and ruffled around and put under the microscope so you can hear their stories of rejection, failure, and adversity. Please send them our way. If you're interested in following us on social media, I've lost track.

SPEAKER_01 49:11

I am at NEVslin on Twitter or X or whatever Elon Musk now calls it. And thanks to Elon Musk, I'm also at Noah Ebslin on Hive, Spoutable, Blue Sky, Threads, Mastodon, MySpace, French, and I'm sure a thousand more.