Take 113 - Showrunner and Executive Producer Keith Geller, Wipeout, The Floor, Floor is Lava

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for sure, dozens of unproduced scripts littering the lord.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_03 0:20

For every success, there is sometimes even years of failure.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default. That's the thing we have to be able to perserve. Like everything in our business here has gonna be counted.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

I was being told by my manager it's yours to lose. And I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking, like, well, that's it for me. I do my one big shot. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_03 0:58

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SPEAKER_02 1:20

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SPEAKER_03 1:43

For those of you who don't understand slightly drawly American accents, that's scriptation.com backslash S-I-T-H-A. Welcome back to Screaming to the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. This will be a better episode than usual because my co-host Noah Evslin is stuck on set in Hawaii. Um so I get to do it on my own, which as we all know improves the quality enormously. And I am delighted to have on the show Keith Geller. So Keith has been uh EP and showrunner of The Final Straw, EP of Wipeout, Floor is Lava, Fear Factor and Cannonball, and recently co-EP of The Floor. Welcome to the podcast, Keith. Thank you very much. I'm happy to be here. Um, so I'm very excited about this. Is one of these ones where um Keith is on partly because he has an amazing list of credits, and also because our boys played basketball together recently in the Calabasas League. And uh this is the thing about LA, you never know how famous the dad of your uh your son's basketball teammate might be. So this works out very well. Um so look, obviously, you know the premise of the podcast, so I don't want to start with how successful things are. Um I I think obviously unscripted TV is can be quite wild, I think it would be fair to say. Um and you have been on shows which I think the whole point of some of them is their wildness. Um tell me how you how you found yourself in this sort of slightly wild corner of of Hollywood.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Um, well, uh I studied Shakespeare for four years and then uh all of a sudden was on wipeout. Um actually, uh it's it it was really um it was a strange transition because I was doing a lot of um docuseries and things of that, things like that, more story-oriented, uh, you know, talent-oriented. And but I had a background in uh live event production. I produced the Tribeca Film Festival for several years on all their special events and award shows and um that sort of stuff when I was living in New York. Um, and uh Wipeout was looking for somebody to come in and sort of oversee the day-to-day operations of uh taking the creative and turning it into uh the set, you know, and doing it in such a way that it's, you know, like as safe as possible and that, you know, everything's going according to plan and on our schedule and all of that. Um and uh I think I, you know, I uh I wasn't exactly sure when I was getting the job, exactly how big the job would be and how much would be entailed in that because uh I thought I was coming in as somebody's like assistant. Turns out they were leaving uh because they had another show that had just become hugely successful. Uh so the idea, I guess, was to bring me in um under the pretense of this is gonna be this is gonna be fun and a cool ride. And then all of a sudden I have, you know, the entire uh job on my shoulders, as it were, um, just a couple months in. So um, but it was great. It's you know, uh it's a whole, it's its own world out there. You know, we build an entire city and infrastructure, and it's uh, you know, it's people just basically live were living out there like uh for years on end because we were rolling into season after season. Um, so it was a it was a real blessing and uh a lot of fun uh to film. You know, there was there was never a boring day on set on Wipeout for sure.

SPEAKER_03 5:44

So obviously, you know, there's scripts and there's unscripted, but you know, in the unscripted world, there's everything from your your sort of very physical shows, um, and then there's sort of the other unscripted, which is sort of following a celebrity family around, right? For example, as another type of unscripted. I mean, bearing in mind, you know, I'm not in the entertainment industry, so this is a genuinely innocent question. Is there a sort of snobbery in the unscripted world between the sort of you know, the sort of game show unscripted and the sort of quasi perhaps scripted unscripted?

SPEAKER_01 6:23

I I think that there is, and probably uh because I well, I think that there is uh in one way to the other, like like the the game show, challenge show, you know, like that world definitely doesn't want to be doing the other thing um because we've done the other thing, and that other thing is really, really difficult, you know. Um, you know, when you when you do a game show uh or you know, a big physical challenge show, whatever it is, like uh there's only so many hours in the day, and there's only so much content you need for the for the episode. And it's you know what that's gonna be. You know, you're gonna have the first challenge, then you're gonna act break, it's the second challenge, act break, third challenge, you know, uh finale, and then we're done. Um, with the docu series, docu follow, like you have no idea, you know. I mean, yes, you've got you're following a plan uh for that episode, but you literally never know how long anything is gonna take, how difficult a location is gonna be, uh, how horrible the talent is gonna be to you or near you or whatever. You know, it's every day is like in that scenario, could turn into a 20-hour day, and and oftentimes does, you know. Um, and those shows uh, you know, always have a lot less money. You know, you're you're always bare boned. I mean, when I was doing those shows, I was like a production manager, a field producer, and a PA, like all of the time, no matter what I was doing. You know, I'm directing talent and I'm getting releases from people who are in the background. Like it's you know, it's uh it's very, it's very tough. Um, and the rates are lower, and you know, there's a variety of I think those people don't understand how good we have it on this side when there's like controlled environments and bigger budgets, you know. Um uh, you know, but but so I would say, yes, those of us that don't have to do that other thing anymore uh are really happy about that. Um, but we're never gonna tell all of the docu follow people who are doing great stuff and working their asses off that there's an easier thing to be doing.

SPEAKER_03 8:50

How does it work? A fascinating answer. I'm actually not sure.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

That's what I expected, but uh Yeah, I mean, I guess it's not actually easier what we're doing. In a lot of ways, it's harder, but you know, it's all about time and uh you know lifestyle, I guess. Like I couldn't have been a dad doing that all of the time. It was like it was it was too crazy, you know.

SPEAKER_03 9:14

So what's the dynamic between your world and the scripted world? You know, do you guys all sort of secretly want to go and work in the NCIS rooms and do they all want to come and do cool stuff, or is it very much like this is my lane and you don't really think about what they do because it's so different?

SPEAKER_01 9:35

Whenever whenever I'm talking to somebody who's in scripted, you know, yeah, they always want to come play floor as lava or something, you know, uh for sure. Um, but uh, but they don't ever seem to want to work on this side of the industry. I think the same way I'm talking about DocuFollow, they probably talk about us, you know, like uh, you know, there's nothing that's easy in entertainment, there's no form of television that's simple and you know, um nine to five, and you go home and don't have to think about it. Like that doesn't exist. But but uh just in terms of the hierarchy, yeah, I think you know, scripted uh producers and crew definitely feel like they're in the right spot. And I get that because then you know, more budget, more jobs, you know, more shows over there, you know, there's uh I think we have a lot of competition in in the unscripted world. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:35

So in terms of the the challenges that you you face, not so much getting a role, but now you're you know, you're in the job, you're you're in charge. What are the the main things you deal with? Is it and I know you you sort of deal with everything, but you know, the the three hardest parts of your job. Is it getting the right content from the people? Is it dealing with the people in suits trying to control you? What what are the main sort of two or three things that really make the job as hard as it is?

SPEAKER_01 11:06

Yeah, it's hard to like limit it to three, but I'll try. Um so I have really good relationships with um network executives. Uh, you know, we all have a job to do, and they have a job to do. Um, and you know, the goal of any collaboration between a showrunner and a network executive is to create the best product. Um, there's this third thing, um, which is uh on time and on budget. Um, you know, and that's I think that's the thing that really is the most difficult thing for showrunners because you've you've got an idea of what you want to do, and everybody comes into it with um really rosy dreams because there's been some pitch that was done, and that pitch that was done was not pitched in a, you know, in a bottle with a certain amount of money. It's not like they everybody agrees, like, okay, put together a pitch for a $900,000 an episode show. It's put together a pitch of the greatest thing you've ever seen in your life, right? So that they buy the pitch and then they buy the pitch and then they hire me or someone like me, and they're like, this is what we want to make, but you only have X amount of money. And because of that, X amount of time and X amount of build weeks. And then you have to take all of that and go, okay, well, how can I make the thing that's closest to what it is we all hoped it could be? Because I mean, that's that's just uh for good or bad, that's the process. And, you know, a lot of times it's that thing of like, you know, well, why does this show look so crappy? Or why does this, you know, not feel like, you know, fully done or something, you know, and you're in and you know, the problem is time and money. And like, so something that might have taken three months to prep a couple of years ago, you know, is now being like shoved into six weeks, you know, um, because all the budgets have come down, but you know, the quality of show and the largeness of the show, you know, that they still want the same thing, but for three quarters less money, you know. Um, so there's always this, there's always that battle. And I feel like that battle is the is the hardest thing. You know, you've you've got a production company that, you know, is trying to do everything they can do to please the network, and you're trying to do everything you can do to please both of them. Um, but then ultimately there's this money thing, which, you know, some people like to ignore, you know, uh at different levels because they just they want you to produce the thing that's in their mind um versus the thing you can afford. Um, so I think that's if I were to that's that's a real tough thing. I mean, staffing and last-minute script writing and things, you know, there's there's so many things that that are difficult in the process um and part of the process, but but the big, the big top line stuff is, you know, for me, um the hardest part of the job.

SPEAKER_03 14:29

Do you have any particularly egregious examples of where you've had to make time or money savings that have either completely changed the show or really sort of changed some part of it?

SPEAKER_01 14:42

Um there's a lot. There's a lot of those. There's a lot of those things. I think I think one of the biggest things, like, you know, if you look at something like Flora's lava, for example, um, you know, the the there are things that uh cost a lot of money, like, you know, the lava costs a lot of money. Um, and the thicker you want that, the more it costs, you know. Um, so then there's this whole, you know, conversation and discussion about, well, how thick does it need to be? You know, what how thick, you know, what's the proper thickness for getting the light to go through it, for the bubblers to work, for all these things that we're putting into it to create this magical uh experience. But, you know, if if it's 10% thicker, it's like $200,000 more money. You know what I mean? Like it's like, you know, uh, so you know, you have to find that medium. Um, and that's one of the things, like at the end of the first season, you know, uh people wanted thicker lava, you know, for the next season. You know what I mean? It was it's it's it's those type of things where you know you have to make decisions. And uh for season one of lava, we wanted to do uh 10 rooms and a finale. Um, they you know, uh the finale came in in seasons two and three with the volcano, which we had designed in season one, um, but didn't have the money because nobody knew if it was gonna be good or not, or if anybody was gonna see it, or if it would just sort of get chucked into the river of Netflix shows and nobody would see it floating by. Um so there was, you know, definitely less less money at that at that time to do all of that stuff. So we ended up having to do half the amount of rooms um and no big mountain at the end. Um, but you know, it came out at the right time and everybody loved it and it was magical, and people were stuck at home, and everybody wanted to play it, so it all worked out. Um, but that's sort of you know, par for the course, those those sorts of things. You know, the hope is that uh that you don't see it on the screen, that nobody goes, hey, there were there should be more rooms here, there should be something at the end, you know. Um, nobody nobody was saying that.

SPEAKER_03 17:13

Yeah, yeah. I guess I think like if you look at obviously in the scripted world, like the the dragons in Game of Thrones definitely got better as the seasons went on. So if we look if we were looking carefully, is the viscosity of your lava changing as you go through, as you can afford it.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

It definitely got thicker. Okay, for sure. For sure. But you know, like on a show like Wipeout, uh, when that show is starting up, everything, you know, all that stuff costs a lot of money. You know, all these challenges are huge and they're made of steel, and all of the steel is padded with wood, and then foam, and then vinyl, right? Like that's how everything is made. And these are really expensive things. So as the seasons went on, we kept everything and we would recover, reuse, find ways to store things so that you know those purchases are amortized over X amount of time. And, you know, we ended up building so much stuff. It was like a world of stuff out there on that on that ranch. Um, that even when we came back eight years later for the TBS reboot, or six years later, whatever it was, uh, there was all of our steel structures like out there in the forest, you know, just like for us to go and get and clean off and reuse, you know. Um, a lot of it had been scrapped, but there was still plenty of it, uh, plenty of it there. Um so you know, that's that that definitely helps productions when they when they're able to stay afloat and get new seasons and you know, all of that. And you use you can reuse things and that really, really helps.

SPEAKER_03 18:53

Are you in the coming up with new ideas for shows game or the being brought in for somebody else's great idea game? Or a bit of both?

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Yeah, bits of both. And I would um I would love to be spending more time able to work on uh my creative bits. Um, but I I'm hired a lot to develop ideas for other people and companies, um, you know, and that that can be something that's really helpful in between, you know, larger projects. Uh so I do a lot of that where yeah, where somebody comes and they say, you know, it's you know, it's uh the Hunger Games meets fight club or whatever, and you know, you know, and that's and that's it. And they're like, and and these, and these networks are really interested. So let's see what you come up with, you know. Um, or we'll get like I'll I'll get like a deck that's you know, pictures of like a mood board, and it's like, you know, with with a couple of uh challenges that haven't been very well thought out, and then I take that and uh expand on it and do drawings for challenges and come up with cool stuff and repackage it, make a sizzle, and then we'll take it to a network and we'll hope to get it sold.

SPEAKER_03 20:13

And in terms of your own, um obviously pitching is definitely not a uh no one's no one's getting 100% on these things. So tell tell me about where an idea, either a bad idea or a good idea at the wrong time, but where you've ended up one of your ideas has definitely not landed the way you wanted. Or is there one that like was really special to you and you were sure would work and then nobody else agreed with you?

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Yeah, oh my god. So many times, you know, it's uh there there's some you know, sometimes you really believe in something and you're like, this is this is a thing that could uh that I think could make the show better. And you know, you gear yourself up for that pitch. And uh, you know, you're you're met with either like silence, so you like pitch it, you're like, this is gonna happen, and this is gonna happen. And then this spaceship comes down and it opens up and that's where the finale is, you know, like you get you whatever the crazy idea is, and then uh yeah, you get that look of just like, yeah, oh no, next moving on, you know. Um thankfully, a lot of times when when that happens, you know, you it's it's it's obvious, it's easy, and you're like, okay, never mind, I never said it, moving on, you know. Um specifically though, there there's been so many. I I I would have uh trouble just pulling one out, as it were.

SPEAKER_03 21:55

Have you bought the right through your years of success? To get away with sort of average ideas maybe lasting longer in the system before they're rejected? Or is it the world is just, I don't care how many credits you've got, if you know, if if it's a crap idea, then they're just not interested.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

Yeah, I think in the end, um your executives at this point in time have less, I wouldn't say respect, but I, you know, I think I think there was a time where it was like, if you were one of those people making certain types of shows, you were sort of considered an expert. And if you were, you know, the dating game guy or you were the match game guy or whatever, like there's certain things that the executives would say, like, oh no, this is what he does. Let's just let him do his thing and we'll give him, you know, some notes here and there. But I think ultimately um there's a lot more executive producers on shows, and everybody wants to have a say in everything. Uh, and that that committee approach can be really, really hazardous, you know, it can be really difficult. And it's and it's tough for uh, you know, it's tough for ideas to get through the the crushing machine that is multiple executives at production companies and networks, you know, like uh you could have a production company uh and uh some sort of celebrity attachment. And that, so you've got production company executives, celebrity and their people executives, and then the network executives, and then who's ever the highest up at the network, you know, it's all you're you're moving the train in this very specific path that has like 11 stops along the way to having an approved idea. Um and when you pair that with having less time to make shows uh and less money, you know, it can it it can really stretch the imagination. It's it's it's a very tough model, you know, to work from. But I think that's just where it is.

SPEAKER_03 24:13

Yeah, and obviously, given like budgets are, as you say, constrained. Um uh are people becoming more risk averse in the way that you know the big criticism on the movie side is that everything is just IP, you know, reboots and and using old IP. Here, I know there's obviously there's lots of sorts of shows that did well in Britain adapted for America, shows that were doing well in Korea adapted. Do people want new ideas or do they want to know that it was a massive success in Latin America and therefore will be a you know, it's an easy win and they don't have to risk their budgets and their careers? Is it moving?

SPEAKER_01 24:50

Yeah, it's much, it's much easier to just have a show that you can point to in another country that did well and say, look, this was a huge success, like The Floor, for example. Um, you know, that was a successful show uh in the Netherlands, um, and a format created by John DeMall, and he's got an incredible track record um of creating many of the greatest game shows of all time. And um, and so it's it's much easier to go, oh, well, let's do that, you know, than like if I walk in with a similar type of show that has no track record and is just an idea, there's no, you know, there's there's no proof of concept there, you know. It's it's a much more difficult, much more difficult thing to do.

SPEAKER_03 25:43

So so shifting gears to um I guess the let's do the contestants before we do your call. Yeah. So let's do it. You've been in the industry obviously a long time. In terms of uh how people are treated and sort of things about mental health nowadays and vulnerability, presumably from when you started to now, sort of the sort of great moment where somebody has a nervous breakdown and starts crying, which was probably gold dust you know 15 years ago. Now you have to treat more sensitively. What's that journey been been like for you to see it? And how do you have to think about potentially sort of great moments that you necessarily great moments, but what would have been great moments that you maybe can't use anymore?

SPEAKER_01 26:35

Yeah, it's another reason why you know I was sort of happy to move on from that style of of show. Uh, you know, uh house reality shows are um prime example, or when you're following celebrities, you know, you you need the drama, you need the fight, you need the liquor, you need the, you know, you need the tools uh at your disposal to get the story. Um and story doesn't always just happen on its own, right? So, you know, there's a lot of subtle manipulation and uh you know things of that nature that you know we those are tools, they're tools in the toolbox. And yeah, we don't have those types of tools anymore to that degree, but I I'm I'm guessing if you were talking to somebody who's still um in that you know line of work, that a lot of them are still used just in moderation. Yeah. Um but yeah, I I think I think for the excitement level and the throwing of the chairs and the late night screaming and hitting each other and all of that chaos. Um it's there's less of it, you know, whether it's a good thing or a bad thing. I mean, I I've seen some contestants not, you know, some contestants have some really tough times on shows for sure. And now, you know, there's there's counseling on shows and even shows, even game shows and stuff like that. Like if you lose, you know, and need to talk to somebody, there's somebody there for you to talk to.

SPEAKER_03 28:25

So you have counselors on on your shows now?

SPEAKER_01 28:29

They're they're so sometimes they're sometimes they're on set, and other times you uh are able to set up, you know, a call or a meeting or some sort of follow-up, uh, you know, so people don't walk away in uh in a bad state, as it were.

SPEAKER_03 28:48

Yeah, no, understood.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

Um, but you know, most of the time people just want to have fun, and people are going on shows, um, you know, game shows and shows where there's money uh to be won, you know, to have to have a good time. I think most people don't think that they're gonna win the money, or you know, that they're gonna be the last man standing, um, but they want to have fun and want to have a once-in-a-lifetime experience. And I think that's something that we offer, you know.

SPEAKER_03 29:17

And in terms of contestants, because obviously in the old old days, people go on these shows and they win or lose, and that's it's watched by however many people, and that's sort of it. But now you go on these shows, and if you you know last more than one episode of whatever the show is, you're suddenly people are talking about you on social media and all that sort of stuff. Yeah, make people want to go on more because they think they might create some kind of career as an influencer, or does it make them want to come on less because they just wanted to win some money and have some fun and they don't want to be, you know, people on Twitter talking about whether they're overweight or not?

SPEAKER_01 29:53

Sure. I think it depends on what the show is, right? Like, you know, on the floor, um, it's a it's a picture-based trivia show, you know, and so there's not there's not a whole lot of room for sort of like you know, super embarrassing moments that are, you know, could potentially haunt you the rest of your life, you know, where there might be on some other shows. Um, but you know, like there's uh there's a couple, uh there's two people on the show who got together on the show unbeknownst to anybody else, and they're like engaged and they're traveling the world and sending production all these pictures of that, you know, and then and that's really cool. And and now they're taking that onto the web and they've got their Instagram site and they're promoting it. And um, there's another contestant who has a cameo already, uh, you know, for 15 bucks, she'll send you whatever video you're looking for, you know, and it's like that. But that's the only thing that she's done is you know, been on the floor. And it's just crazy how overnight like people are just jamming into that, you know. I I guess that's just that's just the way of the world right now, right? Um, so I think I I do think that there's a lot of different motivations behind it, you know. Um, but it's a lot of it's a lot of fun, and people are having fun, and and yeah, maybe some people are going on so that they can, you know, brand themselves and do that. Um yeah, it's it's it is crazy. It is crazy. You know, I I feel like there was a lot of shows back in the day that it would have happened a lot more, you know, if if we had that technology, you know, yeah, yeah. A factor, like, you know, people eating crazy stuff and like the the viral nature of that stuff um uh would be great for uh for you know branded people.

SPEAKER_03 31:53

Yeah, yeah, indeed. And I guess again, when you started on these shows, diversity in casting um was that a thing?

SPEAKER_01 32:06

It was a thing. It I just don't think it was as necessarily important as um well, obviously it wasn't nearly as important as it is now from a network standpoint. Um and you know, you've you've you've definitely got to do the work to make all of that happen, you know. So it's and and it's only better for all the shows. It's it's you know, it's definitely a much better scenario now. Uh, and sometimes you have to really push for that sort of change, and the networks had to get behind all of that. Um, sometimes it costs a little bit extra money in casting, you know, because uh you've got to look harder for certain people, you know, but it's all there, and uh it's it's great that that's the world we're living in now, you know. Um, but yeah, I I don't think there was much thought put into that stuff back in the day. Um when I started, at least.

SPEAKER_03 33:12

And in terms of sort of moving to sort of, I guess the people making the shows. Um obviously you you know, you're a show runner, so you're in charge of a large number of people um in a modern world which is complicated um in terms of responsibilities towards people. Yeah. I guess when you were coming through the system, I'm not not expecting you to name any names here, but on various shows you worked on, were you were there ways that you were treated or you saw people being treated that have informed how you are now a leader of people?

SPEAKER_01 33:52

Yes. Um, I was lucky to work with some really great show runners on my way through things and uh, you know, people who didn't tolerate that sort of stuff and were really good about that. And you know, whenever you're on a set that's like that, you it feels different than when you're on a set where somebody's like a lunatic. And I think I think the that's the that's the main thing like that happens most often is just it's just the treatment of people, you know, um, and how thoughtless people can be about other people's feelings, um, you know, and the the screaming producers and the, you know, uh people who make you work oh overtime and you know, like crazy overtime. I mean it obviously it happens and you have to do, you have to do what you have to do to get to get things done. But um it's really, really helpful when you have a production staff that is really thoughtful about that. We're gonna put you in a hotel, we're gonna get you a car home, we're gonna, you know, whatever. We're gonna make sure that we're being safe. You know, that's that's the biggest thing is just uh safety first at all times and treating people with respect. Um, and having fun on set. Like that's like, you know, we're not we're not doing, you know, like I don't know, real serious stuff. This isn't surgery. We're not, you know, like trying to save lives and you know, we're we're just we just want to entertain you, you know, you know what I mean? We want to create something fun, and when people are having fun, you see that on the screen, I think. Um, and yes, I worked with some really, really difficult uh people and a lot of difficult talent, some some difficult producers, some producers and directors who are really crazy in the head about themselves. Uh, and that's you know, that's one of the things that like there's less and less of that these days, I feel. Um, but you know, there were some real crazy egomaniacs uh running shows. Um some of them are still around, uh, but a lot of them are gone.

SPEAKER_03 36:19

And in terms of uh like what you've got left to achieve, so so you've you've you've worked on some of the bigger shows in in your genre. Um you know, do you have pretensions to move across and do something on the scripted side? Do you want to go back and do some more Shakespeare? Like what what are the things that you want to do you haven't yet had a chance to do, if if there are any, in terms of what you know, what the rest of your career brings you?

SPEAKER_01 36:54

Um I I mean, I want to keep developing quality shows that are fun to watch and that people enjoy. And like nothing makes me happier than you know, hearing from friends, family, people who I run into on the street or over, you know, meeting over dinner or whatever, that have seen something and it like changed their lives or their their it made everything good, you know, like floor is lava. Like everybody was like, we love this, our kids love this. It's like, you know, provided this magical respite for us in the middle of this hellish time, you know, that stuff is is great. And you know, there's always a lot of people out there just looking to take their mind off of whatever, you know, is bothering them and um you know, and just like be entertained for a little bit. And I think these types of shows do that, and you know what? I want to keep doing that. Um, but also if a friend called me up and was like, hey, we're doing Macbeth at the small theater, and I've got a great part for you. I might I might be in. I might be in.

SPEAKER_03 38:05

Is it is there is there a Shakespeare game show out there that you've worked on the concepts of? There must be something. No. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

It's a that that's that's a great space probably for uh England to conquer.

SPEAKER_03 38:23

Probably wouldn't work on ABC, would it?

SPEAKER_01 38:25

Um no, no, I think uh, you know, uh yeah, I think I think the shows are we're trying to keep we're trying to keep things simple.

SPEAKER_03 38:35

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:39

That's not gonna be on every contestant's uh application.

SPEAKER_03 38:44

No, very good. Um look, this has been great, Keith. We're we're we're near the end. Uh we have I have one question left which I'll ask every guest, um, which is uh if you could give a single piece of advice to somebody wanting to move into your industry, what would that single piece of advice be?

SPEAKER_01 39:09

No and descriptive. There's more work. Do commercials. Go where the money is, YouTube.

SPEAKER_03 39:25

Very good. Um, super. Look, um Keith Yeller, the probably one of the few great Shakespeareans who's moved into mainstream game show challenge television. Um, thank you very much for coming on the show.

SPEAKER_01 39:41

It's been my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_03 39:49

Thank you for listening to this episode of Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss brought to you by Scriptation. Thank you as ever to James Launch for the music, and thank you to our loyal listeners. And if there's any showrunners out there who want to hear their fellow showrunners abused uh and ruffled around and put under the microscope so you can hear their stories of rejection, failure, and adversity, please send them our way. If you are interested in following us on social media, no, I've lost track.

SPEAKER_02 40:26

I am at and Ebslin on Twitter or X or whatever Elon Musk now calls it. And thanks to Elon Musk, I'm also at Noah Ebslin on Hive, Scoutable, Blue Sky, Threads, Mastodon, MySpace, Friendship, and I'm sure of that.