Take 42 - Writers and showrunners Liz Craft and Sarah Fain, Women's Murder Club, Lie to Me, Fantasy Island

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for shore, dozens of unproduced scripts literature. All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default.

SPEAKER_04 0:53

What I've realized from that moment is it's never one bit shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Welcome back to Streaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. I'm very excited about this episode for two reasons. The main one is the absolute quality of the guests that we have, and the second one is Noah's not here today, uh, which will be an enormous relief to many of our regular listeners. But instead, I have two guests, so there are still three voices on the podcast. I'm very excited to have a writing duo who have worked on Angel, The Shield, Lie to Me, Vampire Diaries. They created Women's Murder Club, plus lots of books and a podcast called Happier in Hollywood, which I think is the opposite of this one. Welcome to the show, Liz Craft and Sarah Fain.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

Thank you. Thanks for having us. It's exciting to be here to talk about our failures.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

Um there are many. So I this is this is fun uh having having two guests. I think my first question, it's not really a rejection, failure, or adversity story, but when they're crediting you, obviously you're both together. Do you is one of you normally go first, or do you fight about it on each project depending on who's done marginally more work? Like how do you settle and have you ever had to argue about it?

SPEAKER_01 2:21

It's funny because we used to switch every project or you know, or episode and um the order. Um, and then we just decided to always do it alphabetically. So I am usually first, being a craft and she's second, but um but it's also possible that this is why Liz did not change her professional name.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

Yeah. Because if she had changed her professional name when she got married, I would be first.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

That's right. That was my uh secret agenda to speak first in the credits.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Because the alternating seems fair until like one of the shows does really, really well.

SPEAKER_03 3:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Um, and then suddenly, you know, your name's first on the one that you created and went for many seasons, and the one that bombed the other person's got. So um, that's a tricky balance.

SPEAKER_02 3:11

I think at a certain point we just stopped caring. It was just like, oh, whatever, it's alphabetical. Yeah, that's fine.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

So this is probably not the right opening question, but this does count as an adversity question, I guess. Um so obviously, you don't argue about whose name goes first, but do you have arguments and falling outs and how do you manage that? As a as a duo who have been writing the other so long, there must have been some times where there were some issues. So tell us how that works and how you resolve it in the right way.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

That's a fun question. I notice we're both pausing to see who's first.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Um well, I mean, I should start by saying that we went to high school together. So we've actually been friends since we were 14. Um, now, of course, being friends is different from throwing your lots together and being writing partners. We had no idea when we became partners, you know, over 20 years ago, that we were sharing, you know, our careers and that in many ways this relationship would be uh more intense than a marriage. Um, I can say that being married. Um I think over the years, just like many married couples, we have found that like our conflict has actually um gone largely away. We get along better now than we did 10 years ago.

SPEAKER_02 4:43

Yeah, I think you just at a certain point you start to know what the other person's reaction is going to be to certain things, and therefore it's not unexpected. So you're prepared for it, or or you've come around to their point of view in advance a lot of the time. You're like, yeah, you know what, I I agree, that person is an asshole. Um, so it's it's been interesting how our there's definitely been that that thing of, you know, how some married people start to look alike. I think we just sort of start to act alike in a way in in certain situations, just partly also because I feel like we've been through so many things now. Like if something surprised us, I would be surprised.

SPEAKER_03 5:34

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

And then just creatively we say whoever's got the most passion in the moment wins the creative argument. That doesn't mean it's the end of it. But in that moment.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Got it, got it. Interesting. So obviously, even though you're obviously both very successful, you've done you've been on a lot of shows, and therefore you've been working for a good chunk of the time. Obviously, like everyone in this industry, and we talk about this all the time on the podcast, you will have been rejected many more times than the number of shows that you've actually got credits for. Because there's two of you, uh does that make it easier when the call comes in or the email comes in saying something's not happening or something's been cancelled? Because you've immediately got you know the other writing partner there, does that make it easier or does sometimes you escalate the anger and frustration because you're talking to each other about it?

SPEAKER_02 6:32

I think both. I think we escalate. Um I think in the moment, like when it first happens, we probably escalate each other and kind of amplify. And it doesn't make it easier when it first happens at all. I think sometimes it I don't think it makes it harder, but I think it makes it shorter. Makes it louder, louder and shorter. I think we get through things a little faster because there are two of us, and at a certain point, one of us is gonna get back on the horse.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

Yeah. And so is that you sort of you have your moment, you get frustrated, and then does one of you say, Right, okay, that's enough of that. Let's move on.

SPEAKER_02 7:22

Yeah, I mean, it might be more than a moment, it might be days, but eventually, yeah, somebody's gonna say, All right, now we have to deal with this note, return this call, you know, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

And I do think it helps that when you have another person, if it is someone gaslighting you, if you're not in the wrong, it's very helpful to have another person to bounce that off of now. If you are in the wrong, it's also helpful to have someone there. I mean, just to analyze what happened, it's helpful to not be the only set of eyes.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

Yeah. And I guess this is a quite a practical question, but how does it tend to work? So do you both receive an email at the same time, or does your agent call one of you rather than the other, or do you all you both jump on a call at the same time? Like, is there one of you who's the designator, designated bad news receiver because you're less likely to shout at them? Like, how what's the practicalities of failure?

SPEAKER_01 8:24

We're usually on the call together, or we get an email together. Um, and you know, nine times out of ten when you're getting bad news, the second you answer the phone, you already know what you're gonna hear. I mean, we have been blindsided, but rarely. Um, and at this point, I think it would be very hard to blindside us with bad news. So it's more like we're seeing what phone number comes in. And depending on the phone number, you know what the answer is. If the studio calls, it's bad news. If the network calls, it's good news. I don't know if people realize that, but it's true.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

And and obviously, I guess the same in in reverse when when you get good news, when your shows are being renewed for a second season and so on. Does that again do you immediately sort of jump in an Uber and meet at the nearest wine bar and celebrate, or do you are you quite measured with your success when things go well?

SPEAKER_02 9:25

Well, usually, you know, prior to the pandemic, at least, we were together. Um, so it really wasn't a get Sarah on the phone, get Liz on the phone. We were just always in the same place. So you kind of got us by default if you got one. Um I don't know. Are we when we get good news? I mean, part of our sort of philosophy of being functional human beings in this business is to really appreciate it when things are good, because things are so often not good. Um and it's easy to get really hung up on those times and let the good times just kind of pass by and not kind of uh whatever the opposite of wallow is, not really celebrate them, savor, yeah, and not savor them. So we really try to savor when good things happen.

SPEAKER_00 10:21

Yeah. So that's an interesting point. I think this sort of recognition that things are hard and you should enjoy the moments. Is that a a new thing because you've been doing it for so long? Like at the beginning, when you got good news, did you just see it as good news and wow, you're really good at this, and this is our career in Hollywood? And it's only now with a bit of perspective that you realize that the good news comes along less often than you'd like. Is that is that a sort of veteran status perspective now that allows you to think like that?

SPEAKER_01 10:54

I think so. You know, when we our first show got picked up, Women's Murder Club, a friend of ours, uh Dave Henningston, who is uh comedy writer, said like, you really need to appreciate this because you don't realize how like rarely this is gonna happen in your life. Um, and so you need to enjoy it. Um, and that I think was the kind of first time someone brought that to our attention, and um, because we were lucky that we did get a show picked up very early, relatively speaking, in our career. Um, but yes, the more time goes by, the more we realize the value of the victories along the way. Because there are so many defeats.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

Yes. So I guess talking of defeats, when you've what's the longest you've not, I mean, Noah tells me off when I say not been working, because you're always working even if you're not, you know, in a room. But what's the longest where you have not been in a room or on a paid project?

SPEAKER_02 12:00

I mean, really the pandemic, you know, we uh had two pilots in development that didn't move forward right before the pandemic. And then suddenly I was a stay-at-home parent with an at that time seven, I think she was seven, and then eight-year-old remote schooling. Um, and we were, and then and Liz's son, who's two years older than my daughter, was also home. And we were trying to figure out like, okay, what do you do now in this situation? How do you both work with kids, you know, as everyone was? Um, and then pretty quickly we started working on a couple development projects, one of which qualifies as a great failure, and one of which went to Ceres. So, you know, you uh it was an unpleasant time, but it all ultimately worked out really well. And a lot of it we were just working on getting Fantasy Island picked up. But of course, it doesn't pay to get something. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

A year um, I think, of not actually getting a paycheck for a script, yeah, which is the longest we've gone.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Which is actually remarkably successful. And you know, there's right.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Yes, we've been very lucky. Um now as a team, we're always hustling because you know, we split our paycheck. So we can't just sort of be on a show, save up money, and then you know, chill. We have to keep it going. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

Absolutely. So I obviously I wouldn't be doing this podcast justice if I let you say a great failure about a project and didn't circle back and ask you to tell me a bit more about that great failure and how you felt about it. So tell us what the great failure was.

SPEAKER_02 13:59

Well, the great Liz, how much can we say about this? I think um anything. I mean, I think we can say what it was.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

Yeah, I think yes, we can say we had the we had been um, we were developing um a uh it was uh IP based on a book called Um The Final Girl Support Group. And uh we loved it. Loved it. One of our favorite projects of all time. Um and we had the pitch ready to go, um, which we were extremely excited about. And just you know, as we had the pitch ready, um the the writer um of the book pulled the rights, like the rights um, you know, uh uh expired and he didn't renew them with the company.

SPEAKER_02 14:57

And so we started the project after months and months of work, and of course, part of why we couldn't pitch it sooner is because we were also doing Fantasy Island, which did get picked up straight to series, but it just like it was brutal and became even more brutal because it is now at Charlie's Thrones Company. And I the last we heard a huge writer was attached to do it, and it was like one of those things where you're like, I mean, we loved this project, loved it so much, and it I think it's like one of those things that will one, I think it'll be huge and win awards and be amazing and wonderful, and two, I think I will feel like till my deathbed, I'll be like, Oh god, we lost Final Girls support group. No, God, no, never. I don't want to hear another thing about it ever in my life, and I regret bringing it up, it's crushing.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

Wow. Um, well, I guess that's quite times. So I just I just want to check whether you're joking or not. We we've had this debate many times with people about you know when some big projects failed. So we had somebody talking about I think they came third for Lord of the Rings. And interesting, so I said, I'll bet you're never gonna watch it. And he's like, No, no, I I want to watch it, I want it to be a success because and I wasn't, I don't think he was just trying to be a nice guy. He genuinely, I think, because it's good for the whole genre. And we've had someone else who said if they when they miss out on it, they just don't want to have anything to do with it. So, are you genuinely because you put so much into it, you just you won't watch it if it does get made?

SPEAKER_01 16:43

Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:45

We will not watch it.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

No, definitely not, no way.

SPEAKER_02 16:48

I will turn off any ad that I see. It's just it's heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

It's like an ex-boyfriend who you don't want to see passing by on the street.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

And is it the obviously you know, this is what this podcast is about, which is why I'm focused despite all your successes, I'm talking about more about this one than literally fancy I have at the same time and went in the opposite direction. I guess is the heartbreak because it you know, it could go on to make somebody lots of money and win lots of awards. Is it because it was a project you just loved and believed in? And as I think Noah would say, you know, is it writing it or working on it would have been sort of your soul? Or is it just because you just put in a lot of work and you just know that it will never see the light of day? Like what is it about why is it so painful?

SPEAKER_01 17:44

I think it's really all three of the things you said. I mean, I think it's rare, you know, you're always looking for an idea, right? And it's always that spark in television of what is something special that we feel creatively we can grab onto and make something of and have it be really different and fresh. Um, and I think we saw this show um as a real opportunity for us in our career, um, sort of where we want to go next. It was like the perfect place for us to go. And, you know, that just doesn't come along every day. So to me, even more, it's really the idea. It's like the the flash of um passion, I guess, that you feel about an idea, like that is what I'm most sad about because those I those flashes don't come along every day, whether they're from us, something we come up with, or something that someone presents to us.

SPEAKER_02 18:45

And it's also, I think, like a hundred percent I agree. And I think it's the loss of all of these stories that we had come up with for what this season would look like, and all of these really cool things for these characters to do and scenes that were in our head that we were, you know, dying to write, and then it's just gone. You know, you think I think one thing that as a writer you have to believe is that things are gonna happen. Like you just always sort of believe that things are gonna happen, and sometimes that's delusional, and sometimes you're right. And this we really felt like it was gonna happen and we could see it, and we were so close, and then it just evaporated. Um, so it's the loss of all of it, you know. You just feel like, oh, now we don't get to tell those stories or be with those characters, and it's just gone.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

And by the way, I mean, I think an ongoing bigger and bigger problem in Hollywood is the free work that writers are doing. Yeah. I mean, it is such a topic of conversation. More and more writers are doing hours and hours and days and days of work for free, yeah, months, um, which we did on this project. And, you know, I have we kind of have a resentment that like we were sort of just in our, you know, in our opinions, we did a lot of work that for no reason, and it was, I mean, you know, a bad situation, um out of which we got nothing. Yeah, we got nothing, and um, I do resent that. Yeah. And I mean, uh, on behalf of all of our fellow writers who are doing the exact same thing.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

I I know this is something that's come up quite a lot, and I see it on social media all the time, this discussion. So I guess the question would be if for some reason actually you'd got development money for this, so you'd been paid for this few months of work and the project still died, how much would it change your feeling about that project?

SPEAKER_02 21:08

That's a good question. I'd be less resentful of the time lost. I don't think I'd be less.

SPEAKER_01 21:16

Emotionally, but I would certainly be less mad.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

Okay, that makes sense. So obviously, you're I'm not gonna use the word you you you've used the word lucky twice, but I'm not gonna say lucky, but you you did something else at the same time, uh, which ended up being, or you know, about the same time period, which ended up being a success. Now, obviously, there is some fortune in that, in the sense that if this was the last thing that you'd done and you hadn't had any success since, you've got longer, I'm supposed to to wallow in it. So the fact that Fantasy Island gets picked up obviously, that's great because you've got a fantastic project that everyone is excited about. But is there a part of you still And we're only seeing it as good.

SPEAKER_02 22:12

I think it's just I think it's definitely standing alone. Yeah. It's just good. I mean, it was hard. Is hard. But it, yeah, it it has a the um the pleasure in the success is not lessened, I would say.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:31

No.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

Good. It would be uh tough industry gets even tougher if actually when you have successes you don't get to enjoy them because you're worrying about a playoff. So that's that's good to hear.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Um and you know, we have really fallen in love with Fantasy Island. Um so uh, you know, we have no complaints on that Fantasy Island front.

SPEAKER_00 22:55

Yeah. So you sometimes I know you've you've done some projects on your own in terms of I think separately books have been written on your own. So yeah. What how does that work as a as a pair in the sense do you consciously decide to go and pursue something separately and Chinese wall it and say, right, I'm off doing this and I'm spending time on this, or or do you get approach for things? How does that work?

SPEAKER_01 23:30

Well, basically anything in TV or movie, which we've never done movies, we would do together.

SPEAKER_03 23:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:37

Period. We would not consider doing something apart, at least as of now. Um, anything in the book world, if one of us has the inclination, we might do it on the side. Um, I will say we've been so busy that has rarely happened. Um, and we're always trying to get each other to do book projects. Um, and we usually don't. Um, so practically speaking, it television takes up so much of our time and podcasting um that we just don't have a lot of you know room for anything else.

unknown 24:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

But we see it as if one sick person's success helps the other. So if Sarah went off and did something hugely successful, that would only help me in our partnership.

unknown 24:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:29

We both have book book projects on the back burner. But I mean, when I say back burner, I mean like years on the back burner. Every now and then we'll be like, so how's your book coming? Oh, great, how's yours? You know, it's like not at all. Uh it's purely theoretical right now.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

Actually, I'm gonna ask you a podcasting question. I I don't want to make this too too much a podcaster asking other podcasters questions. I want to try and keep this in the not all of our listeners are podcasters, although obviously they listen to podcasts. Um, one of the things I know Noah likes about the podcast is in an industry where there's so many barriers to being creative, you know, you work on a project for months and it doesn't happen, you know, you sort of record a podcast and you release it two days later and no one can stop you. Uh, and it doesn't almost matter whether anyone's listening or not, you can still get it out. Given that you are successful, busy people producing television that's being watched, so I don't know the exact numbers, but most of those shows, I imagine the numbers are in the the low millions, maybe even the slightly higher millions. Where does podcasting sit for you and why do you do it? Because I assume it's not as lucrative of the TV side, um, and has probably fewer listeners, although you know, then the millions of viewers. So tell me tell me where podcasting sits and why you as creative people, why you do it.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

Sarah, you want you want me to start? Um, well, uh a hundred percent. Um, we love being able to do something and not get notes, just do what we want to do and put it out. I mean, it's tremendously freeing for us. Um, I think we feel like also after 20 years in the business, we do have thoughts on how we think things could be done better at the workplace to make it more sane. And so we want to share that. Um, I also think um for us, having a podcast, it's just part of, I mean, for lack of a better word, like building a brand. You know, I think writers need to uh try to have a presence to be known, um, to be on social media, all of that. Um, and so even if it even if it doesn't pay as much as creating a television show, it leads to us having a um larger profile in Hollywood, which indirectly leads to us um being more successful, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 27:06

And I think it also all of those things are 100% true, but I think part of what keeps us doing it is that the sort of forced introspection every week is good for us. Like it makes us better at our job. You know, we we process things aloud on the podcast and we um we look back at projects, we reflect and look at it. We frame things, we like it's just it's a good place for us to kind of uh reflect, yeah, and then kind of position ourselves for what we want to do next. Um, so it's actually a useful tool for us as well, selfishly.

SPEAKER_00 27:57

Yeah, no, no, I I I completely get that. Do you feel obliged, given the title of the podcast, to be to always look positively on things? I mean, I know I've I've listened to a couple of episodes, and obviously you're not sometimes you ask, you know, you're asking difficult questions of yourselves, but do you feel some vague obligation to talk about you know, more fantasy island than the the the book that didn't work?

SPEAKER_01 28:20

No, I think we we present it all, we try to keep a sense of humor about it. I think we try um not to take ourselves too seriously. I mean, we and we try to look for, I guess, a silver lining. Maybe we feel an obligation to see a silver lining, but we certainly don't feel like everything has to be rosy, as our listeners know.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

Yeah. So um I guess a question about diversity. So on this podcast, we don't we don't we try not to talk about it all the time, but it keeps coming up because obviously the world is moving so quickly. And obviously, we had Mo Ryan on the other day who had a very, you know, obviously very clear views on everything. How much have you seen things change in your time in the industry? And I guess because you're always a pair and you're together, have you been shielded from some of the things that happen because you come as a pair? And some of the more difficult things maybe don't happen when you're a pair.

SPEAKER_02 29:28

Definitely. I think definitely we've been um shielded from some of those things because we're always kind of there to have the other person's back. Um, you know, you not everything, you know. I mean, I'm I'm thinking of certain times when, you know, this a guy that we worked with would be just a complete asshole to Liz. Um and then I would storm out. Um, you know, um, and then who came in to apologize and Liz was like, you know, wasn't immediately uh accepting, honored by the apology, which I think she was supposed to be. And then he was even more mad because she was supposed to just be like, oh, thank you for apologizing. It turns out you're wonderful. Um, but you know, nothing shields you from everything, but I do think we've been shielded from a lot. I mean, early in our career, being a team of women was good because people could get two for the price of one. Um, and and they could be like, they wouldn't just say, Oh, we have our woman. They could be like, we have two women on staff. We're not paying for both of them, but we have two women on staff.

SPEAKER_00 30:51

Interesting. So is that actually because I know particularly early on in some of the diversity stuff, there was a lot of tokenism, or at least people presenting it as such. So actually, when they hired you, as you say, on one salary, would they then tout that they have two women in the room as a sure absolutely, yeah? Uh shameless, I believe, is the word.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

Yeah, no, no, absolutely. I mean, it wasn't considered shameful at all. It was absolutely wow. And I mean, and so many times you you know, we have heard a male writer say, Well, we already have a woman. Like if you're recommending someone, you know, for a show, well, how about this woman? Oh, we already have a woman. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 31:37

Are things noticeably better?

SPEAKER_02 31:41

Well, they are if we're hiring. Uh yeah. Um, I think so.

SPEAKER_01 31:47

Yes, I think there are many more women writers, certainly. Um I think other kinds of diversity have come much less distance, um, as I'm sure you know. Um, but as far as women, I it does it is better, but that doesn't mean there isn't so much misogyny. Um but it's certainly better.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Yeah. And it's interesting, so you made the point. You said when you're hiring, it's different. I mean, obviously consciously uh you can you can hire who you want, but more than that, do you when you're uh when you're leading, you wanna you're you're deliberately trying to create the sorts of environments that you maybe have seen other people haven't created earlier in your career.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

Yes, but it's interesting, yes, but also it's interesting when you say you can hire who you want to hire. I mean, that is not totally true. You know, I mean net bro networks and studios in many instances have a big influence on who you hire. Um, that again, way back in the day, many years ago, um, we weren't allowed to hire, you know, quote, too many women. So um, and and now, you know, there's always going to be a lot of influence on hiring, but absolutely we try to check ourselves and pay attention and um be mindful.

SPEAKER_00 33:23

Yeah. Good. Look, we are we've reached the last part of the podcast, unfortunately. Um so for this last question, we ask uh if you could give a single piece of advice to somebody entering the industry, what would that piece of advice be? Now obviously there's two of you, and whoever goes first gets the massive advantage. Well, well, maybe the one who goes second gets thinking time, and the one who goes first might give the best idea. So I I don't want to, you know, I don't want to cause any trouble. So I'll let you two decide who's gonna go first. But same question to both of you.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

I mean, it's funny. I was listening to your episode with Jose Molina, who was talking about getting fired, and you know, we've been fired by the best. And I think my biggest piece of advice would be to just go into it knowing that you're gonna get fired. It's fine, you just have to be resilient.

SPEAKER_01 34:24

And my piece of advice for people really entering the business is to surround yourself with really ambitious, focused people. Um, and you I think people rise in groups, and I think if you surround yourself with people who are serious, your chances of lasting go up a lot.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

Yeah, very good. It's good. Two different but equally valuable pieces of advice. But um, it's just been uh it's a bit different having two guests on, particularly who uh uh and I I love the fact that I can tell whether it was a good question or not by the length of pause between who answered, and also the fact I guess the best questions you answered straight away, and the worst questions might neither of us want to answer this one, so we'll wait longer. Uh, but no, it's been it's been fun having you both on. So so Liz and Sarah, thank you very much for being part of our podcast. It's uh been great to have you on.

SPEAKER_02 35:20

Thank you. We appreciate you. That was really fun.