Take 142 - Actor, Writer, Director, Author, Producer Eriq La Salle, Coming to America, On Call

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for shore, dozens of unproduced scripts literature.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_03 0:21

There is means something. This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

That's the big thing you have to be able to persevere. Like everything in our business here and take care of that doesn't matter what money.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

I was being told by my manager that it's yours to lose. And I probably lost it. And everybody thinking like, well, that's it for me. I blew my one big shot. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_03 1:04

Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry, brought to you by the Emmy Award-winning annotation software scriptation. As ever, I am Dan Rutstein, your non-entertainment co-host.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

And I am currently, you're still in the entertainment uh industry co-host Noah Epslin. Today I'm delighted to introduce multi-hyphenet, actor, writer, producer, and director, Eric Lasalle to the podcast. As an actor, he's been in so many beloved things like Coming to America and literally too many things to list here. As a writer, he wrote an episode of The Twilight Zone, which I'm super interested about. He also produced The Salt and Sea, an executive produced Chicago PD and On Call, amongst other things. As a director, he's directed episodes of over 35 different series like FBI, Law and Order, Chicago PD. He's currently the producing director and an actor on On Call on Amazon. Welcome, Eric. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03 2:07

So this is going to be a bit complicated because obviously normally we talk about rejection, failure, and adversity. I'm not, I'm not sure where you would have had time to fit all of that in between the what seemed the failure and rejection.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Oh, there's a lot of time for that.

SPEAKER_03 2:21

I guess I'm going to start um uh I'm gonna start at the beginning. Um when you first were making your way into the industry, did you have any sense that at some point you would have a list of credits like you have across obviously the different disciplines? Like when did you realize you'd have a career like that? Because obviously not many people do. Um so is it straight away or that it's like a few years?

SPEAKER_00 2:50

No, I don't I don't, you know, I I don't think that you ever predetermine that. I think you just predetermine the commitment to the journey and the dream. Um you never know. I mean, listen, you could you can have great success and then not necessarily be this long resume. You can have success uh on you know something that's that goes on for years and years and years. You you stay in your lane, that's that's success. Um, I just I think based on my sort of restless nature and um um curiosity and and hunger, and uh it leads me to different things. And so the fact that I've been fortunate enough to explore different disciplines of the art um has sort of given me obviously more of an additional career because there's the acting career, there's the directing career, there's the producing career, there's, you know, uh I started uh writing books uh, you know, 12 years ago. So then you add that entity in that journey. So it, you know, so you don't you don't you don't predetermine it because you don't know how your journey is going to go. You don't know that um you're gonna one closed door is gonna open up two other doors, or one, you know, uh two open doors are gonna close and there'll be a period where you don't have anything. So you you you you don't know. The only thing you do know, the only thing you do control is your commitment to the journey and commitment to what you're trying to achieve. That's really the only thing. So um that's that's how I've embraced it.

SPEAKER_03 4:30

So is is it unfair, given obviously all the different things you've done, is it unfair to ask of the different disciplines? Obviously, writing novels and then obviously all the acting, producing, directing, which of ones gives you the most satisfaction?

SPEAKER_00 4:46

Well, you know, I've it depends on the day. Um, because there are times that I'm very protective of of all of them, and I and and uh I say that they're like children, like you know, do you love one child more than you love another? And some people say yes. Um so on on some days I say that, and then some days, uh quite honestly, um I would say I don't I don't always like writing. I don't always I I I like being a novelist. I don't always like writing, but I always love writing, if that makes sense. Um I think that the directing is definitely immediate gratification. Um there is a there's more power in it. And I don't mean it, I don't mean it from an egotistical point of view. I mean it from a creative point of view. A lot of times, you know, you have to realize I started acting at 14 years old. Acting is uh to a large extent a reactionary art in the sense that um, you know, you wait for your agent to call you, you wait to get cast, you, you know what I mean. So writing is more proactive. Um and so and directing has been definitely a more immediate gratification. It's been um I've had more creative input and power. And then of course you add producing into that. So I think the only thing is, although you know acting is my first love and will always be a great love of mine, I love the acting. I don't like the politics around acting. So that makes it a little less attractive to me. And what I mean by that is I think, you know, being um, you know, at this point, being a producer and seeing some of the deals that's made and seeing sometimes the pay disparity between, you know, people of color and women and uh the value system. Um it doesn't make you excited as I am. Um I I don't I don't have any of those type of obstacles with the other disciplines that I pursue. Um so that lessens not necessarily not the love for the craft and not the love of the doing, but it lessens the love of you know the politics of surrounding it that allows you to do it. When you go in and you and people say, oh my God, I I love your work. I love your work. We you know, we're so excited to see you. And then, you know, you get the role and you start negotiating, and it you realize that it's like, you know, yours is here, and sometimes your white male counterpart's salary is here. That will affect you because you're saying you don't really value what I do as much as you value what a colleague does. And so that after a while will, you know, definitely, like I said, lessens the attraction. And I'm I'm blessed and fortunate enough that I don't have to rely on acting. So I can maintain a love for it because I choose when to act. I choose when to. It's not, I'm not depending on and see the industry right now is in a very weird place because my this is just my opinion, but it feels like the studios and producers are ultimately trying to eliminate the middle class actor, which I'm proud to be one of, which means you know, you have the superstars, you have the big stars, and right now the structure of things is that they get paid a lot of money. Um, and then there was the middle class actor that you for years you could make a great living and it was fine. And then you had the people that they could pay, you know, scale or, you know, very little. And it seems more and more um that they're trying to eliminate the middle. So that basically a show will be greenlit based on a star, and then everyone else is paid, you know, pittance. You know what I mean? And so I think that that again doesn't make it attractive. Um, but I'm like I said, I'm fortunate enough that I don't have to rely on that because you have a lot of actors right now that's making less money now than they did 30 years ago. That's that's across the board. That's that's that doesn't um that's not true for just one ethnicity. Um, but of course, people of color, I think, feel it even more um in general. And again, this is my opinion. Uh, but that opinion is also based on being a producer and seeing how deals are structured, you know, and uh and and like you're like, oh my God, you're offering this guy, this this person, this amount. I barely even know who they are. Like, what were they on? But I mean, crazy money. And then you might have someone that you recognize that's been around, has truly been a blue-collar workhorse, and people know and see, and yet they're being offered something um so below what the uh what their colleague is. So that's you know, makes makes it kind of interesting.

unknown 10:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

I think your opinion is as close to fact as one can get. Um, I it matches my experience as well. I mean, sadly, the pay disparities, the things you fight for, the power disparities. Uh I have a million questions, but I want to start with this one. The uh, you know, I'm a writer, producer, and just starting to direct. And when I go places, I'm not recognizable. You're you go places and you people recognize you. I go places, no one recognizes me. But when someone asks me what I do for a living, I'm like, I'm in the entertainment business, just an easy way to like, and then they really ask me, no, what do you do? I'll I'm a writer. Like first and foremost, I don't self-identify as a writer. I'm really curious with your career that has really deeply, you know, some people are multi-hephenist, but they haven't, you know, they've sort of in one thing and then a million of another thing, but you really have a deep bench uh in in many things. How do you self-identify in this career when somebody, let's just say in the remote wilderness who has never seen one of your movies or you know, doesn't recognize you, asks you, oh, what do you do? What what what is that answer?

SPEAKER_00 11:14

Well, I mean again, depending on the level, like you say, if you're talking once about someone that has hasn't seen anything that I've done, then I probably just identify as I'm in the entertainment business. Um for you know the majority of times when people ask me, um, I can't I sort of arrived at this epiphany, I don't know, maybe 10 years ago. Um, it's quite simple. I'm a I'm a storyteller. So I don't have so as an actor, I'm a storyteller, as a director, I'm a storyteller, as a writer, I'm a storyteller, as an author, I'm a storyteller, as a producer, I'm a story, I'm a storyteller. And that just simplified things because I because uh you this it's a great question you asked. I know it seems might seem you know simple to some of the uh people watching this, but that is a that is a great question because we do struggle with that. For people that don't know, we do, we do, how do you sum up um you know what your life intention, how do you sum up what your um God-given talent is, particularly if you have multiple um of you know of those. So um, and so when I I just all of a sudden I was like, oh, I'm a storyteller. Um and it and it it was triggered by it was after I started being an author. Um, because again, I started adding all these things on it. Someone you know asked me maybe a similar type question and and I thought about it and I let it go. And then all of a sudden, like I said, it just came to me. So uh so I I love the concept uh of being a storyteller and committed to that.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

I'm 100% stealing that. Thank you. For uh that's a better answer than the one I used to give. I love saying that I'm a storyteller because that you know that just seems to sum up so much of what we do. Um, okay. Uh I want to, I like to go a little bit in chronological order. You mentioned that you uh had your first acting job at 14. And so one of my questions I'll ask people sometimes is like, what was the epiphany that made you want to enter this business? And they give a story about, you know, whatever, normally a little bit later in life, but at age 14, you're still, you know, barely a teenager, something came your way, or you pursued it and started this ball rolling. So I'm curious about your origin story.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

Well, origin story is actually um sort of a cyclical, you know, this this circular thing that that that came back because when I was uh even preteen, um I loved writing. I loved writing poetry. Um and you know, I would um had a relative that, you know, if he had a girlfriend and he was going through something, he'd ask me to write a poem for him. And so it was, and then she would, you know, fall in love with it. And and and he was, of course, he claimed it as his. Um, but I saw the power of that. Um, I also had another relative that was um a dancer. And I remember her, she was a modern dancer. She was with a modern dance troupe, and she performed for my high school. And and I went to a very rowdy inner city um high school. And and I just remember I was talking to a buddy in the um, you know, sitting in the audience before the day as the dance was starting, and even though, you know, this was my relative of them talking to him, and I just remember they were so focused forward. And I looked around and I realized the entire auditorium was quiet. And it might sound like a simple thing, but if you had been to my high school, that was impossible. And so the origin story actually started then. It started with me seeing the power of art. Um, and me seeing the power of art coming from not only someone that looked like me, but someone that was related to me. Uh and and I was the, you know, being the obnoxious kid that was distracted and, you know, talking. And it was the kid that I was talking to. I just remember they were so enthralled. And I immediately wanted that. I wanted it somehow. I didn't identify how, um, I just knew I wanted that. And so then I, you know, like I said, I was writing and I used to read a lot when I was a kid and write and writing poetry. Um, and I wanted to be a writer. And then I wanted to be a doctor. And then I realized I was scared of blood, and I was like, yeah, that's not gonna work. So then I went back to the focus of writing. And so then at 14, freshman in uh high school, um uh, like I said, I came from an inner city um um high school, and sports was the big thing, you know. Um, so the drama club, they didn't have a drama club, they had one years ago. And so my freshman year, um a guy by the name of Paul Zionce, um drama teacher, who I still keep in touch with, um, decided that he would um revive the drama club. So they were having um auditions, and I was on the freshman basketball team at the time. I was very mediocre. Um, but um, but anyway, so I'd made the team. And so I heard about these auditions, and I had this great concept that I would, this was my chance, I was going to write an amazing play. They were going to perform it, and then that was going to be my, you know, my launch in my career. So I go to him and I say, Hey, I'd like to write a play. And he looks at me like I'm crazy and he says, We are doing, um, we're going to do Lorraine Hansberry's or Raisin in the Sun. And you can audition if you want to, but like that's it. That's all that's being offered. And so um, you know, that crazy notion of being a writer, you know, went out the window. I auditioned, got the role, and that was the launch of me being an actor. And then the reason I say everything, sort of this becomes like this interesting um cycle uh and of things of journey. And so then cut to years later when I decided that I wanted to revisit writing. Um so it kind of came back when I started directing short films because you have to write your short films. Uh, then I got this crazy notion, um, sort of in that height of acting, I got this crazy notion that I'm I would try my hand at being a novelist. And so it was just kind of cool to come back full circle, basically. Um, and that and that was the you know the the beginning of my journey. Um, so writing got me into acting, acting then got me back into writing. And I think that that's really cool.

SPEAKER_03 17:52

That is very cool. So look, obviously you had you you've your credits list is is not insignificant. Um in between some of those, is there a either a show where you came second either as an actor or a directing gig where you just missed out on it that you wish you had got on? So in between all the successes, is there one particular either show or movie or even something you were acting in and you didn't get to direct it when you'd asked for? Is there one thing that really sticks out to you as something that you nearly got but didn't quite get that?

SPEAKER_00 18:30

Um I mean, yeah, there are always roles, you know, in the running joke that my friends and I used to say, that's my role. That's my role. Um, and look, it's it's not your role unless, as I believe, unless, you know, God makes it your role. And, you know, whatever God wants for you, no one can take away, and whatever God doesn't want for you, no one can give. So that's that's what's kept me for the most part sane through all the insecurities and doubts and desperation of being an artist. Uh, so yeah, there are a ton of roles you wish you had gotten. Um, I I was, you know, back and started my career back in the 80s, and Miami Vice was really, really hot. And I auditioned for Miami Vice no less than eight or nine times. And I just everyone around me was getting into it. And so my best friend is uh Michael Beach, who's an actor as well. And he and I joke to this day, you know, Miami's Vice is going to call us because he and I were the only, we felt like we were the only two actors in our group that, you know, because I came out of college. I went to college with, you know, it was uh Michael Beach, Vang Reigns, um, Wendell Pierce, Lorraine Toussaint, uh, just really Wesley Snipes um graduated the same year I graduated. So we came from this really great time of African-American actors that were, you know, working a lot. And I was working a lot, but that was the one show I could not crack. And and Mike, and for whatever reason, Michael Beach couldn't either. Ving, who was the third part of our wheel, he ended up doing two separate characters on it. So we were like, there's justice in that, you know. So, you know, so there is, you know, there is that. Um, and you know, like I said, you know, you you have to live with some of those. And I think there are roles that I got that I didn't deserve. Um, there were probably better actors than me. And and there, and there were roles where I was maybe the better actor and didn't get it. And I and I say that based on I remember um a director or two writing me and saying, um, I think you were the best one for the role. And I'm sorry I couldn't cast you, but the studio wanted this or this or that. So that's just the nature. So you always want to have these things. You can't take yourself too seriously, and you can't take the rejection too, you can't take your success too seriously, you can't take your quote unquote failures too seriously, because a lot of a lot of stuff we don't control.

SPEAKER_03 21:00

No, indeed. Were there any times obviously earlier in your career where there's two parts to this question? So, were there any times in the early part of your career where you nearly uh quit the whole of Hollywood to give up because it wasn't going the right way? And I guess the second part of that is oh no, okay, good. Well, there's no second part then.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

Um quitting was never an option. That's not that doesn't mean that there weren't some really tough times. Um, part of it, I don't know what else I could do. I don't, I'm not talented in other things to do. I don't, yeah. So it wasn't well, I don't know if it was always like this bold, strong choice. It was like, uh what else, what what else am I qualified to do that would also bring me happiness. I think that's the I think we can always learn trades. I think we can always um learn to do certain positions, but um what's gonna bring you joy? And and that's always been an important thing. And and I've always been in love with acting. I've always been in love with being creative. I've always been in love with being a storyteller. So when you say you remove that, then you're also removing passion. So what could I replace something that I would feel? And quite honestly, you know, there isn't. And I, you know, I grew up in an era where, you know, my mentor and people used to say, you only become an actor if you would die, if you couldn't, like a part of you would die, um, metaphorically and possibly literally, you know. Um, and and that's how I feel. So so that that was never an option for me.

SPEAKER_03 22:40

I I love that also, actually. Um what so I guess because if you're determined to persist, as you obviously were, in terms of like how low were the lows? So I think we're on the 135 episodes of this. I think we've had like four people who had to sleep in their car, one person had to like borrow money. Like what was I was again earlier on, what what was the I guess the lowest point for you in terms of like you're not giving up, but you're having to now make some sacrifice to keep going? How how bad was it when it was bad?

SPEAKER_00 23:10

Well, I mean, I I guess, you know, I was fortunate as soon as I came out of college. I um I had an agent, I had uh actually uh multiple agents interested in me. I signed with an agent, so I started working right away. And I went for years. Uh now when you're working, you know, you you get a gig and you know, you work on it for a month or two, then you might be unemployed for two or three months in between. Um, you know, and some sometimes, you know, the things that hurt obviously is when you get two offers at the same time and they conflict because actors, we we've always had so many dry spells that you wanna, if you got a job, you felt that you earned it. You know what I mean? And so the last thing you want to do is lose it because of um, you know, conflict. Um, there was a year and it was 1992. Um, I went for in a complete year of not working. Like just all of a sudden, um, work just wasn't available. I kept getting close and and it was weird because I, you know, I graduated college, so basically I graduated college in 84. So from 84 to 92, I was working. And like I said, it doesn't mean I was working every single month or whatever, but I was working, and even at that time, I worked enough so that when I was unemployed for a year, I qualified for insurance to carry me. Um, so I was still even in even in receiving unemployment, um, it was based on what success I had had as an actor. Um, and and it's interesting when you use the word low, and and I understand what you're saying because sleeping in one's car and being homeless and challenges of family, et cetera, I get. But for me, I was, I won't say that it was like the most depressing time in my life. Um I I had found a really good acting class. Um, I was studying uh with a teacher by the name of Ivana Chubik, who does a lot of, you know, a lot of uh stuff in Hollywood. And I had such a good connection in class. And so I was I was doing really good work in class. And so I had an outlet for this energy and for this thing. So I started, I found a way. I think the greatest victory for me in that, and maybe this is why I didn't feel low, was that I found a way to still feel good about myself, to still feel good about being an artist, to still feel good about being an actor, because I would go to class and I was, I would throw everything out, I would do two to three scenes sometimes. Like, I mean, you know, I was my hand was always up whenever they said, is there anything else? I always had a monologue on. So I was constantly getting this and I could see growth. And then I think there was also, although frustrating but encouraging at the same time, I kept getting closer and closer to big jobs. I kept getting closer and closer. And now it's between you and so and so, you know, sometimes you start off as like it's between you and five people, it's between you and four people, it's between, you know, and so each job, and so I so then I sort of got into this place where it came down, a lot of jobs came down to me and some other person. So I was encouraged by that. And so, um, so like I said, so even though it was a not a fruitful time for me and it was a challenging time, and I'm not gonna, you know, I found, and I think that's the problem. I think when we're we're experiencing this whole, you know, on a huge scale um right now, I think when you can't do what you love and you don't have anything to replace it with, I think that's when it really affects you and really hurts you. And so I was fortunate enough to now a class is not the same as working, but technically, I'm looking unemployment was keeping me afloat. My whatever little savings I had was, you know, um was keeping me afloat. And I was going to class and I was loving class and class was loving me. Um, and that was my that was my victory. So yes, it was a low point for me, but um, but like I said, it was also uh an inspirational and and encouraging point for me as well, simultaneously.

SPEAKER_01 27:36

I I I I love this answer. You know, this podcast mostly caters to a lot of writers. We have a lot of writers on here, and we have a lot of writers who listen to the podcast looking for, you know, uh, you know, kernels of truth, things that that they can connect with when they're when their careers are struggling, as many are right now as well. You know, they always are, but they really are right now. And for you to say that you, you know, really in that year, you worked on your craft, you worked on you, you sharpened your blade so that when you go back out and when you get another job, you're gonna even be better at the thing that you were already really good at, and you found a lot of joy in that and feeling complete, you know. In retrospect, probably there was fear in that year as well. And I just like always try to remind the writers like we can always write, we might not be getting paid for it, but you should be at your computer every day.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

And that is one of the see, uh, in some ways, I think writing is maybe the most self-empowering because at the end of the day, yes, I was in class and I was paying to be in class, and me paying afforded me the luxury of uh getting on stage and doing what I love. Writing is and see, then and then beyond class, I need someone to hire me to do uh my craft, to do my art. I need someone to say, hey, we think you're good enough to come in and join this cast, et cetera. I need that permission. I'm always fascinated with writers because they don't. They don't to to do the actual work. They don't need permission. They don't need validation, they don't need they don't need that. What they need is a way to keep them inspired to continue to you, you know, if you don't have a laptop, use a typewriter. You don't have a typewriter, uh, use, you know, write it. You know what I mean? So there's there are ways to always write. I think with the other, as a director, as a uh as a as an actor, I need someone to validate and give me permission to go and do that outside of class. You know, I need that. Writing, of course, you need to pay your bills, you need someone to buy that script or to buy that book, etc. But you don't need anyone's permission to create the art. And that I think is in some ways, I think you writers have, and I I don't consider myself a full-time writer and you know, I'm you know, close more of an author, but but I'm in in speaking to your writers right now, you guys actually have more power than a lot of your fellow artists from different disciplines. So that's something to think about. And you know, the thing I find with writing also, as much as I fight with it and struggle with it, the cool thing I find out find about writing, you know, when I'm working on my books is that there's always an answer in the writing. And the challenge is getting, there's always there's always the perfect, there's always the perfect word, there's always the perfect sentence to express. The challenge is finding it. And you can spend days. I I I trust me, I spend days sometimes finding searching for the right word, the right sentence, you know. But and that's to me a metaphor for the art of writing, which is there's always an answer, there's always a solution. You just have to find it. And so when you're, man, how do I say this so it doesn't sound so expository? How do I, what is that? I'm trying, what is that word? I'm trying to, you know, you struggle, you struggle, you struggle. And it comes to you when it comes to you, and you know, as writers, we all we keep our phones by the side of the bed and we in the middle of the night, we write down that thing because there have been too many gems that we've trusted that we will remember when we woke up and we didn't. Uh so, but there's always a word, there's always a sentence, there's always a paragraph there. It's our our struggle and our challenge is to find it. And that's a part of it. So I hope your writers um think about that as they struggle, and everyone's struggling right now. So, you know, so much, so much of the industry is struggling. But I hope they think about that. That it really is a it is one of the most self-empowering um art forms. And I think if you look at the the origin of Stephen King um living in a trailer um, you know, park with his wife and throwing away a manuscript that she happened to go through the garbage and find, and said, What is this? And he says, Oh, you know, he was he was scared to let her down one more time. And it turned out to be Carrie. Um, and that launched his career. So you have to, I guess for your writers, you guys have to, what do you, what did you throw in the waste bin? What what haven't you created? What haven't you? There's that, there is that saving gem out there. You just got to keep digging and digging and digging and digging through the trash and digging through the beauty of of life, et cetera. You got to keep digging. So that's that's what I hope your your your writing um audience takes away.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

100% in sync with you. I always think that some of our writing pre-exists us, and we're just trying to find this thing that already exists, like Michelangelo's David in that Marvel. That the David always existed. Michelangelo just needed to find it in that Marvel. And I always think about when we're looking for the right word that it's because there's something guiding us to this freaking word that every other word isn't right until we get there. But I I do have a question. You're talking about um, you know, this whole story, this whole conversation with you is is about you being a storyteller in different forms, right? So we've talked about, we're gonna circle, we're gonna get to on call in a second, I promise. But we're we're um we're we've talked about your acting and we could spend multiple episodes just talking about that. We've talked about your writing a little bit, but in 19, it looks like 95, 96, you began to pursue a dream, at least where your IMDB is concerned, maybe was earlier, of becoming a director. So what what motivated that pivot in 92? The lack of work have anything to do with it? Or did you just want to paint on a bigger canvas and be in like, you know, this is time for me to start pursuing this? Because, you know, you you've been a director for 30 years of so many different things. And if like for most people, that would have been their entire career, but you're already sort of deep into your career when you start this new part. So I just real curious, you know, in brief, as we because we're gonna have to get to uncall to it as well, just like what was that kernel where you decided I don't want to be, you know, behind the you know, front of the camera, I want to now go behind it.

SPEAKER_00 34:30

Well, I think um this might get to, I know you said the whole concept of your show is some of the failures, etc. Um, and this might speak to it. Um, so I was doing a movie, I was cast in a movie. Um, Denzel Washington was doing an interracial love story um film with Michelle Pfeiffer. And um he something happened, he ended up exiting the project. So there was a big search to find a replacement, find a replacement. So after many auditions of you know, going through everyone, I was living in New York, I auditioned uh and they flew me out to California, and I ended up getting the job. I was cast in the job, and and I remember People Magazine um had said, so I I I'd done coming to America, but nothing big since then. And just, you know, was a working actor. And so People Magazine was saying something like, um, who is this guy that replaced Denzel Washington? And um, this is this is going to make his career, and you know, as much as anybody can try to predict that stuff. But anyway, you know, you're young, and you're like, wow, so I knew I knew I had a lot at stake. So I I I went in. I went in and I um worked my ass off, and um I flew my mentor in, um, who was my mentor since 15 years old, um, yeah, since 15. And um we worked and I never went anywhere. Uh I, you know, I you know just stayed in my apartment and was just, I was ready and I was coming to set, and the director started telling me after a couple of days, he says, you know, I know you can't see dailies, but you're doing a fantastic job. And I so I thought I was doing everything right. And then I just remember one morning getting a knock at the door, and it was a producer, and they said, you know, we're gonna have to let you go because you simply look too young to play Michelle Pfeiffer's love interest. And so I was, you know, I think that made her look older. I don't, I don't know. But I kept thinking it was a dream. And I kept thinking, because you know, you you you fight to get to this place to get this thing, and then when you get it, you start having nightmares of it being taken away. So I was convinced that I was in a dream. And I literally, I'll never forget this. I remember just pinching myself several times really hard with my nails, um, trying to wake up from this dream. And then the next thing I know, I hear the door closing and it was she was gone and it was real. So I say all of that to say knowing that I did everything I could, um, that I was quote unquote doing everything right, um, and getting the right response from the director who unsolicited um shared this information with me. I didn't want to be in a position, I knew I realized then that I did not want to be in a position where um even when you do things right, even when you work hard, um, that it could be taken from you. So I felt that it was a um it was a disempowering moment. And uh and and I so I they had to pay me, and it was the most money I had ever made um at that point. And so I remember I came back to New York. I I I bought a condo when um from the coming to America money, um, but I hadn't quite furnished it the way, you know. And so I remember coming back to New York and I went and spent like $10,000, you know, and that was a lot of money, you know, um, of buying furniture. And then I just remember going, okay, now what? And the next week I enrolled in directing um classes at the new school and took an intensive course uh, you know, for six weeks because I had an advantage being an actor, I was constantly on set. So I had access to professional. So I didn't necessarily feel the need to go to a directing college or go to something longer term. I just wanted to get some of the technical stuff out. So that's what launched that quote unquote failure or whatever you want to call it is what launched my directing career. Because, like I said, after I, you know, spent money and was indulgent, um, you know, then it was like, okay, now what? And and then I really had a more serious conversation with myself, which is, and you know, when you're in your 20s, you know, 50 is so old. And I was like, I don't want to be a 50-year-old actor and getting fired and because you know, that was like, you know, and uh, and so that that that's what started my career. And then I started following, I did a movie called Jacob's Ladder with the wonderful Adrian Lyne directing. Um, and he, you know, he did so many cool films and movies. Um, and he invited me to the editing room. Uh, I started following DPs, I started following um, you know, Steady Cam, started learning, and and so then I started shooting a lot of short films, and then I shot a short film, um, the first hiatus of ER. And so in its first year, so the the summer of 95, I shot a short film and Spielberg saw it, and Mel Gibson saw it, and they flipped over it, and then they called HBO and recommended me for uh a movie that um they had, and that's what launched my directing career. But it came out of that pain, it came out of that quote unquote failure, it came, you know, which you know, which is a very subjective word. Um, so that's that's that's how it all started.

SPEAKER_03 40:17

That's a great answer on top of some some great answers. I want I want to ask quickly about on call. So um you've done one or two procedurals in your career, uh setting emergency service backgrounds of different kinds. Um what is it that sort of obviously I know we you know we my wife and I watched it and and rather enjoyed it, and obviously, you know, we knew about the acting from watching it, but then we found out ahead of this that you also obviously were involved in in the director and producing and so on. What what what made it interesting or different to you? Because as you said earlier on, you're at the stage of your career, you get to choose whether you want to do things or not to an extent. So, what was it, given you've done so many different versions of procedurals, that made this one interesting to you? And you know, the way they approached the story and the fact it was streaming, which is obviously different for sort of Dick Wolf productions. What what made Uncle worth you wanting to be involved in?

SPEAKER_00 41:14

I guess. Well, it was just, I mean, I it starts with the writing. I mean, the writing is fantastic, the writing was um felt real, felt different. I knew we were going for something different. Uh, I know how we, you know, we were shooting into it, me trying to figure out as a director um what the exact tone and style was, but uh, but I knew it was different. And so I think a lot of times, you know, as artists, we just we want to be in, we want to be in fresh, different things, you know, instead of doing the same old stale type thing. So so it was extremely attractive from that point of view. It evolved to me actually acting in it because I wanted to really focus on the directing and um producing and really make it the best show. So I actually offered the role originally to my best friend Michael Beach. Uh, and then there was a conflict with his schedule. And um, and then we we we auditioned other people, and I wasn't crazy about what we were seeing. And uh, and so uh for a very selfish reason, um, this is of course before the strike and before we knew there was going to be a strike, um, my third novel was gonna be coming out when the show was scheduled to come out as well. So I thought it'd be a cool thing to have this show where I'm doing acting, directing, and producing and have this novel. And so, you know, I I thought I was being very smart there. And uh, and so just you know, from the passion of what I felt about the writing, and I thought the character was really cool. Um, and um, and I I was just like, why don't you do this? You know what I mean? And I ran it by people at the Wolf Camp, and they and Tim uh particularly was a huge fan of that idea. He was endorsed it, you know, and to this day, he thinks it's one of the best decisions we made. Um, you know, and so he he was pushing me. And I ran it up the flagpole, and they and it was like, cool. And so I did it, and um, and just fell in love with the character, and then you know, they're like, now we can't see anybody else having come in and you know to do it. And um, so yeah, so just a lot of fun there.

unknown 43:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

Very good.

SPEAKER_03 43:23

Um look, unfortunately, in the way these work, we're uh we're we're at the end, um which is a shame because we've enjoyed this, but there is one final question, and uh uh given the way you've answered other questions, I'm intrigued as to where you're gonna go with this one. But if you could give a single piece of advice to somebody wanting to enter the industry, what would that single piece of advice be?

SPEAKER_00 43:46

Well, I mean, look, it's uh know your craft, learn your craft. Learn your craft. And so a lot of people want to get in, particularly in this day and age, uh, people can get into this industry to become. Rich and become famous, and you know, uh, so you have all this uh stuff about reality TV. Anyone can become famous now. Um, I think it was harder when I started out because it was really based on your talent. Now it's based on you can get on a reality show and be controversial and punch someone, and next thing you know, you're a star. You can make a sex tape and become a star. You know, so there are there are things that to me that don't require traditional classic talent. So in order to tap into that, um, first and foremost, uh learn your craft, the craft of writing, the craft of acting, the craft of directing, the craft of being an author. I study. I study a lot. I study, and every every um new medium that I get into, when I went from acting to directing, I studied directing. And when I say I studied, I started watching projects from that point of view. I started asking great questions. I started mirroring and shadowing people. I started learning from people that I thought were really good. Um, I didn't come into like, oh, well, I've been on set, I've been acting all these years, I can direct. No. And then when I decided to be a producer, I the first thing I said was, I wanted, I always wanted to be the type of producer that I wished I had. Because there's some really great producers out there, and there's some producers out there that's full of, you know what. And so I for I was like, I'll never lie to actors, I'll always be up front. They might not agree with me, but they will know that they can trust me. Um, when I decided to become an author, um, I started studying, and some of the best advice I ever got was um read up. And I think that that's a great way, meaning study the good stuff, study the stuff that inspires you. So as a writer, as if I'm a screenwriter, I'm reading screenplays that inspire me. I'm reading screenplays that make me angry that I'm not as talented and I couldn't come up with that concept and that execution. As an actor, I'm studying, you know, with great teachers. I'm studying to be the best actor. But I'm all I'm caught, I've constantly, and it's worked for me, I've constantly committed to learning the craft. And so that's what I would give to anyone and tell them to be disciplined about learning the craft if you really want to be good.

SPEAKER_03 46:27

Magnificent. Look, um, Eric Lasalle, actor, writer, novelist, producer, director, excellent podcast, interviewee. Thank you very much indeed for your time.

SPEAKER_00 46:38

Thank you guys. This was amazing. Truly uh enjoyed myself with you guys. So thank you so much. Thank you, thank you so much. Thank you. Take care.

SPEAKER_01 46:46

Thank you so much for listening, and thank you, James Blanche, for the music. And our wives for putting up with our comments today. As always, each episode is brought to you by Scriptation, my favorite screenwriting annotation software. If you want to support the show, please download a copy at www.scriptation.com backslash.

SPEAKER_03 47:07

Or perhaps even better, www.scriptation.com backslash Dan.

SPEAKER_01 47:13

Dan is spelled N-O-A-H. If you want to find me on social media, I'm at Twitter at NEpslin and more recently on threads at Nova Epsilon.

SPEAKER_03 47:26

Don't worry about me on social media, because all you people seem to care about anyway.