Take 140 - Showrunner Joe Wilson, The Equalizer

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for sure, dozens of unproduced scripts littering for.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in hollow with every single day.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

And I probably lost it. I do my one pitch buttons when I've realized what that will be. It's never one pitch button. There won't be other spots.

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Brought to you by the Emmy Award-winning annotation software scriptation. As ever, I am Dan Rutstein, your non-entertainment co-host.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

And I am your still in the entertainment business co-host Noah Epslin. Today I'm delighted to introduce TV writer, producer, and showrunner Joe Wilson to the podcast. Joe has worked on such shows as Jag, NCIS Los Angeles, The Shy, Queen of the South, and The Equalizer, which he currently showruns. Welcome, Joe.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

Thanks, guys. Great to be here. Get a little air horn in there. This is awesome.

SPEAKER_03 1:47

Glad to be here. So uh I normally ask people like a firing question or something to start with, but I'm actually gonna start with you know, you're you are showrunner of a very popular and successful show. Um how difficult is it to be a showrunner?

SPEAKER_00 2:08

It's very difficult. Um, you know, you want someone to sugarcoat that answer and think, oh, it's great, it's so easy. There's you know, you're dealing with so many people on a daily basis. You know, I'm a writer first, so I have a writer's room, I have to deal with and manage. You know, I've got a crew, a cast, a studio, a network, a post department, and they all feel like they're the only ones that you have to deal with. So everyone has questions, everyone has um something that they need, and they come to you for it. And so all of those things in a vacuum in on an individual level, it's not that difficult, you know. You just have to um, you know, manage and um prioritize, but it's the sheer tonnage of what you have to deal with. And you hear a lot of people say showrunnings for you know two people, you know, it's you need to be multiple personalities in multiple places at once. So it's very hard in that regard.

SPEAKER_03 3:08

So which bit of showrunning, Joe, are you the best at? And if I may ask, which bit of showrunning would you say is the area you are least the best at?

SPEAKER_00 3:22

The best at, um I would go with uh script to production and just managing that whole process. You know, getting a script through the process, getting it shot, getting it in the can, uh, you know, managing all the personalities that have to go into that. And our previous uh showrunner, uh friend Andrew uh Marlowe, he had a um saying, you have to land the plane with the least amount of fuel. So it's about prioritizing. You're like, you know, okay, I know that's due, I know that's due. Okay, that can wait for a few days, that can wait for a week. You know, so it's about prioritizing. What I'm worst at is trying to do it all. You know, um passing, you know, you know, I delegate as much as I can, but I'm so in, I like to be so involved in every phase of the process that it will eat up all your time. You know, if you gave it 24 hours a day, it will take 24 hours a day, and you still have more to do um the next day. So I'm guilty of wanting to do too much. So I'm not a helicopter showrunner, you know, I have to have my hands in it, but I'm just so interested in the process and I want to make sure it's right that, you know, I give it way more time than I don't want to say I probably should, but I let it eat up too much of my time.

SPEAKER_02 4:43

I I love that Andrew Marlowe, uh, the writer of Air Force One and other things, uses an airplane analogy as a showrunning uh the uh normally I like to go in chronological order, start sort of with the beginning of your career and kind of get to the showrunner part. But since we're kind of in the world of showrunners, I'm gonna ask a showrunner question first and then I'm gonna kind of reverse back and we'll get a sense for where you where you started. But uh like me, you you know, not all writers, we have a lot of writers on this podcast or showrunners who just became showrunner. They they sold a script or they they went from the feature world and suddenly they're managing hundreds of people. Uh, you've climbed, you know, you did your time in the trenches. You you you did the levels, you were in it. Do you think that prepared you better for your job today as showrunner? And a kind of a follow-up question to that is what surprised you the most when you were sitting in the showrunner chair?

SPEAKER_00 5:35

Absolutely, it prepared me. You know, I spent nine seasons on NCIS Los Angeles, and I had fantastic showrunners there first with Shane Brennan, and then uh when Shane left, Scott Gimmel took over. So I don't know if you know those guys, but they're two of you know just the best guys. And Scott's a, you know, just a pro's pro, you know, and he stays calm under pressure. So we got to watch that. Me and Kyle Haramoto and Dave Kalstein, you know, you know, we kind of came up together. And Shane would he came to us as a staff writer and said, I'm going to teach you how to be a showrunner. I'm going to teach you how to be a producer. And he would let us sit in his office on the studio calls, on the notes calls. He would just tell us to be quiet. And he would let us, you know, he would train us of how to deal with the studio, how to deal with the network, how to deal with everyone. And he gave us an opportunity to fail. You know, so I remember going to um Shane and asking him on some episode that I had written, can I take a crack at post? You know, and so he looked at me, he said, okay, go for it. So I went through the post process the first time. And then he sat down with me in post. Here's what you did right, here's what you did wrong. And then from then on, I did all my own posts. And that had to be at a story editor, uh, executive story editor level. So he trained us early on, he gave us all that experience. So sitting with those, and then Scott, you know, watching Scott work, you know, he's a master. And again, Scott, you know, just stays here, keeps it calm. When things are great, he's here. When things are low, he doesn't panic. You know, so you pick up those habits and you get to cherry pick from all the people around you. And so watching those guys work, it, you know, when I got into this position, it was terrifying. You know, and I went through the showrunner training program, it's a great program with the the guild, and all the showrunners come and speak to you and tell you what to expect, but you don't know what it is until you really get into the chair, you know. And so, and I thought I was prepared, and you know all the elements to it, you know, you've put out all the fires before, but and I think I mentioned it earlier, it was the sheer tonnage of it all coming at you at one time that I wasn't prepared for that tidal wave. So you just got to get up to speed, you know, um, and get used to that. And then, because if you don't pace yourself, you know, you'll burn out.

SPEAKER_02 8:00

Quick shout out to Kyle who sat with me when I was a baby writer for an hour in your offices at in NCIS Los Angeles on the Paramount lot. And I was like, Oh, this is like this is where I want to get one day. And he gave me a lot of very blunt, because he's very blunt. Oh, yeah. Very good advice on um, you know, sort of maintaining a career. Okay, so let's let's rewind, rewind sound if we had sound effects. Uh, we'll add an air horn and a rewind later. The uh the the beginning of your career, how did you decide you wanted to be a TV writer? And what was your first big break?

SPEAKER_00 8:34

How did I decide I wanted to be a TV writer? I mean, if we're getting into it, we're getting into it. If you you know, we're having an honest conversation. So, you know, I'm from East Cleveland, Ohio, you know, not a great area, um, but there's a lot of love and support in that area. And I was having a great childhood, great upbringing, that whole thing. Um, my father passed away at a young age. Uh I was in my teens. Um you know, I was first year of college. My father passes away. He was 49. And you know, you know, he was you know, still young. And that's when you realize, you know, this world, you know, nothing is guaranteed, you know, um, nothing's promised to you. Life is short. And I'd always been a writer from second grade on you know, young authors programs, honors English. But I'm from East Cleveland, Ohio. They don't tell you you can do this as a career. You know, television and movies is just something that happens, you know, but you know, it's magic, you know. So I was on an engineering track, you know. Um I was just kind of going with the flow. Happy childhood, that whole thing. And that was my first big element of um adversity. Father was my best friend, you know, huge in my life. And I was shook, you know, when he was he was taken from me, you know, passed away, heart attack. And I was like, whoa, that's the first time I really questioned uh life. And I kind of said, you know, I owed it to him to do something special with my life. And I owed it to myself, you know, because you know, I didn't want to just go with the flow. I was working jobs, you know, got out of college. This is what, you know, had a great job, you know, but I was just kind of working and you know, going through the, you know, I hadn't mourned properly. And when I finally mourned, I finally woke up and I asked myself all those questions. What do I really want to do? And I started writing again and I fell in love with it again. And I had a sister, I have a sister who at the time was in the FBI, and she was stationed in San Diego. And I had a friend from high school, Tracy Carter, who was the first person from Cleveland to kind of go out and do something in Hollywood. You know, she was working for BET and doing some things. And I said, you know what? I got a friend out there, my sister's in San Diego. You know, I visited a few times, and long story short, made the decision, like, you know what, I'm gonna go for it. And but even when I made that decision to go for it, I still waited like a year and a half. And my sister called me up one day. She said, My transfer to DC came through early. I still have my apartment in San Diego. What are you gonna do? Because you're not doing anything in Cleveland but getting in trouble. And I was being a little wild, you know, at home. And she kind of pulled my card. My sister's always been my North Star. And so I said, you know what? I'm gonna go for it. And I took a leave of absence from the job I was working at, which is a great job. Because just still trying to hold on and have an attachment. And I drove my Honda Accord out west, and I was standing on the beach in San Diego with a cell phone, calling my buddies at home, say, I'm here now. What? You know, and so I couldn't take a job in San Diego because I had to get to LA, you know. So I had my friend from high school, I had a cousin up in LA, and I was driving back and forth every other day, you know, just trying to meet people. And I had a uh a guy from the neighborhood who was working in commercials, he would let me come up to the set, and you know, I'm a friendly person, but I'm very you know open and outgoing. I ended up on the sets of commercials and just learning, you know, how sets work. And next thing you know, I'm on the slate and I'm you know doing film and things I'm not supposed to be doing on the set. And as long as nobody said anything, you know, we I wasn't gonna say anything. So um fat and I was working a job for a company called the Auto Trader. You know, I convinced them that I could redesign their writing and distribution system, right? And so they gave me the job. I had no idea how to use the software, went to Barnes and Nobles at the time, got the book to learn how to do the software. So I got this job that I could be working at anywhere in the city at any given time. They didn't know where I was supposed to be. So I would do the job I needed to do in one day during the week. The rest of the week I was at home just writing. So I was getting a paycheck, you know, and that was short-lived. But the first break is I was in this writer's group, and it was the blind leading the blind. Um, two good friends of mine, Sharice Thompson and uh Keya. And we're just handing scripts back. It was the first time we were holding each other accountable for stuff. Keah was working for a show runner um named Charles Holland, who was working on the show The Strip. And Charles called me in for a meeting. We developed a relationship, and Charles gave me my first break on um, he put me in the writer's trainee program for the WGA on JAG. And and Charles is a great friend uh to this day and mentor. He became a mentor and kind of showed me the business, and I got my first freelance on JAG. That's the short version.

SPEAKER_03 13:44

But that is a great story. Um I guess the question is so look, you know, you arrive in San Diego in a Honda Accord, you know, you get this first, you get the first break on Jag. You know, now you are obviously you're a show runner on a big, important, uh popular show. At what point in between the the driving here and now, did you feel like this is a sustainable career that you will be good at? Where on that line did you make that decision, if if you've yet made it? I was gonna say I haven't hit that yet.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

You know, you know, this is uh, I mean, it's listen, um you you gotta have a few things missing to even go into this business, I think. You know, um someone just told me the other day, um, we're all here because we're not all there, you know, sort of deal. Uh, you know, this is a it's an unstable business, you know, so you really have to love it to want to go into this, you know, and there's probably a lot of talented people who um you know out there, you know, the Midwest and other parts of the country who are could probably be really good at this, but they're not, they don't have the risk tolerance, you know, to go for it. You know, I think you have to have that in you and you have to love it and want to do it more than anything else to be able to sustain. And you have to believe in yourself and you have to have a certain amount of confidence because you're gonna go through some low periods, it's unavoidable, you know, and you're gonna hit some lows and you're gonna, you know, things are gonna get tight. So you gotta learn how to manage your money, and but you really gotta want it, you know. So, you know, we've seen with COVID and the strikes and you know, shows go down, you don't know what's gonna happen. So it's you know, you have to be a little, you know, crazy to want to be in this business, and you gotta love it, you know, and what you do and what you create to get you through those times.

SPEAKER_03 15:42

So here's a question about when you go back to the Midwest. So um we had somebody on, noah, you'll help me with it. I think it was Grant Myers who wrote The Maze Runner. He told a really good story about like they he went back to northern Michigan where he was from, and when they did the premiere of it there, you know, like the whole town turned out, all his mum's friends, because no one from there had really done it over here. When you go back to to Cleveland, if you go to a you know a Guardians game or whatever, are you like do your friends all like is it just like the old days, or do they all think you're some big Hollywood big shot now? Like, how are you treated back home given not many people have done this journey?

SPEAKER_00 16:25

You have to understand the neighborhood, and I think East Cleveland's a special place, and there's a lot of love. And again, it's not it's you know, if you look at the the whole of it, you know, it's it's not a great neighborhood, you know. And we came up rough, and but we had each other, and there's a lot of love. So I go home now and it's what's up, Hollywood, and they you know, they they do the whole thing, and the people that know, no, and I'm not big on, you know, I don't go home and do the news and stuff like that, but when I do go home, I go to the schools. And you know, all of my friends now, and all my peers who've become teachers and educators, you know, I make it a point to go speak to their students, you know, because if I had had someone, you know, at that age tapping me on the shoulder, hey, this is possible, you know, who knows, you know, and I didn't come to the game until I was 28. You know, if I'd have got an earlier start, um, you know, you know, who knows what I could have accomplished. So I make it a point to do that. So the people that know know, and there's a lot of love and there's a lot of joking, you know, but it's not a pedestal. They're very proud of me because in when I say East Cleveland, that's specific. It's not just Cleveland, it's East Cleveland. So I make it a point to say that because they know that I'm thinking about them and they know I carry them with me. And they've been instrumental in me in this journey because when I hit my hard times, it's the people from East Cleveland who pushed me through and made me like, hey, we got you, we believe in you, we're riding with you, you can do this. They made me believe, and it's that same energy and love that I've gotten my whole life from them. And we've been through the trenches together, so we ride together, you know. So when I go home, yes, there is a lot of what's up, Mr. Hollywood, and you know, there's acknowledgement, but it's on a personal level where it's still tangible and it's not, you know, this weird separation. They tease me about it, but it's all love still.

SPEAKER_02 18:19

I I want to comment on two things, both Cleveland and also, but first, you mentioned um how unstable the business is, right? And just always, and it is always unstable, it's particularly unstable right now. And what made me it your your comments made me think that one of the shames of this sort of recent uh like destabilization of our business is that it got rid of our not only did it is it gonna really narrow our current ranks of WGA members, it's got rid of our minor leagues because all the aspiring writers, there's no jobs, but it also got rid of like all our lower levels. I mean, there's there's a point now where it's just like we're gonna be so our bench is gonna be so small because they just didn't give jobs for a really long time. But um, going back to Cleveland, you've you've worked on so many location-specific shows. If I look at your your your you know, NCIS Los Angeles, Queen of the South, The Shy. Do you have an East Cleveland show that you've been dying to write that is like your version of the wire, or what's in your mind when it comes to like celebrating your hometown?

SPEAKER_00 19:20

You hit it on the head, you know. Um, we actually sold it one year. It's called the Red Line, it takes place in Cleveland. And, you know, again, the 90s, you know, ripped East Cleveland apart, you know, drugs, the whole non-crime. And there was this crown jewel when I was in high school, the um the Shaw High uh marching band. When I was a kid, you know, you'd wake up in the summertime, you'd hear the drums, you know, in the you know, in the air, and you knew the band was practicing at the park. And it was a place where the community would go and you'd watch these kids, you know, these brass sections and the drums. And if you know anything about like HBCU bands, like it was that on a high school version, on a on a high school level. And it was just magnificent. And the parades through the city, and it was just you know, be marching forever. There were so many people in the band. Well, funding and the city was taken, you know, a lot of resources were stolen, you know, from government and everything. And so the funds for the school dwindled. And there was a point where the guy's like a brother to me, Donshawn Wilson. Uh, he was the drummer in the band. He went away to college, came back to revitalize the band. It got to a point where there like might have been eight kids in the band and just in hoodies, and he was teaching them how to play the drums. He revitalized this band and ended up taking them to the Olympics when the Olympics were in China. You know, see, he brought it back to his glory. And so you have the crown jewel of that neighborhood was always the band. And if kids were in trouble, you know, put them in the band, stay out of trouble, give them something to do, something that they can hang their hat on. So, anyway, to the um your point, I set a show surrounding that character who comes back to the city, the city's in that condition, and you follow the lives of these kids who are living in poverty, dealing with abuse, dealing with just all the stressors of you know these neighborhoods. And it wasn't about the bad things, it was about the love that they have for each other. And it's about the love that people who are in a place like that can come out of their houses every day and smile and you know and have fun. Like I think back on our childhood, I had a ball. It wasn't until I left, I was like, oh, I didn't realize it was that bad. Like, you know, because we were living in such bliss and we had each other. And it was one of the best times. I still talk to my high school buddies, you know, and there's a group of like 10 of us. We talk almost every day. You know, so it's that much love and camaraderie, and you're in it with each other. So capturing that um is what the show was about. You know, then it's set, you know, Cleveland Clinic is 10 minutes from you. Where we grew up in Cleveland Clinics, like one of the number one heart hospitals in the world. You know, and it was about you know big industry like that encroaching upon the land, the system, the systemic rundown of that land so they can take it over. So there's a political backdrop to it, you know, and just a lot of um you know relatable characters in that. So I'm working on another project to incorporate a lot of those pieces, you know. So hopefully we'll still be able to bring it to the screen.

SPEAKER_02 22:28

Well, this is uh maybe a little known fact. I think we have like 138 episodes. I don't think I've ever said this on the podcast. Correct, someone might correct me if I'm wrong, but it's just a random thing. I love the movie Drumline. I'm like, people are like, What's your one of your favorite movies? I'm like, Drumline. They're like, What? And I'm like, Yes, of Drumline. I can't are you drummers? And so, yes, that's that's my depth of my knowledge about that world, but I've been drumline in high school, and you you have it, you know, that portion of it. Well, uh, you know, fingers crossed or break a leg that you know, one of these comes to life. I love, you know, I think people do like hyper-specific television shows that lets them enter a new world that they don't know anything about. And and we've been in the same location so many times for a variety of reasons, it's time to open that up a little bit. Let's let me let me ask you a question about you you again. If you look at your IMDB credits, you've you've had a robust career, you've stayed on shows for a long time. But what you know, was there ever a period where you were thinking, I'm gonna pack up my Honda Accord? Probably didn't have the Honda Accord anymore, but I'm gonna pack up the whatever car I'm driving, and it's time for me to go back to Cleveland. I am over this.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

Absolutely. Like the Honda, the Honda Accord got repossessed, you know, um, because I just couldn't pay for it. You know, so next thing you know, I'm without a car. Um, and I remember getting a buddy's old Acura. I, you know, it's crazy. Anyway, but there was a point where things weren't going well, and you know, it was still early on, and I didn't know how, you know, to continue. You know, yeah, I know if you took a normal job that you just couldn't put the time necessary into the networking and into the making the rounds, into the meeting people, into the actual writing that you needed to get up to speed on to even be in the business. I remember meeting someone who I care very deeply about to this day. You know, she just flat out told me, like, there's no way, you know, you can get on a show. Like, you know, those jobs are impossible to get. And if I'd have listened to that, I was like, oh well, you know, would have gone and done something else. But I knew it was being done and I knew I could do it. I just gotta figure it out. But you gotta live, right? So there was a period of time I was actually living in my car. You know, um, I think I had, you know, I was a I was an assistant on Soul Food the series, and I got an opportunity to be an assistant. You know, the creator of that show, her brother was the assistant, he broke his leg and they needed someone to fill in. Charles Holland, the guy who became my mentor, called me up, like, hey, there's an opening on here. Um you can come in here and you know, it's temporary, but you get to meet people and get some experience. So I took the job and I put on a clinic in networking. You know, there were like five or six producers on that show, and you know, I made sure I'm giving way more info than I should. You know, so I'm at this point, you know, I don't have anywhere to live. And so this office was set up in a house in the valley. You know, so it was they had a an a house they were using as an office, and it was just set up, it was just stripped out as an office. I would wait till everyone left, come back late at night. I would shower, doing everything there. I would take my car, sleep in a garage in Van Nuys, and someone that I knew that they had a parking structure that the door would come up and down, and then I would get to the office early and did everything that I had to do. And um, I put on a clinic. Every producer on that show, I made sure they read my stuff. Um, they all became, you know, they were all they all gave great notes, you know, stay in contact. That show went down. I didn't have a job, and so I was kind of homeless. You know, I'm just like, okay, well, what do I do? And I had to question myself, do I really want this? You know, it's not going well, like it's taking a long time, in my opinion. And I called a buddy, one of those friends I was telling you about, and we I tease him to this day about it. I called him and said, hey man, I think I'm gonna come home. This isn't working out. And he was like, Yeah. You know, Sid Washington, his name. He said, Yeah. He's like, nah, man, that you gotta stay out there and finish what you started. Matter of fact, his words were you better stay your ass out there and finish what you started. He said, You know, we're all counting on you, we all believe in you, you know. Um you're all you're carrying all of our dreams with you. You know, you can do this, you know, and that hit me so hard. I was like, wow. And I didn't realize they were looking at me like that. And so, you know, that moment, and then there was another moment when I was married at the time. I'm still married to the same person, but I'm saying at the time I was married, I don't want my wife to hear this, and like, you know, you know, and I looked at my wife, I was like, hey, um, you know, this isn't working out. I got have an opportunity to take this job over here. This is another period. And she said, no. She's like, no, we're not, you know, you didn't come out here to do that. You know, you came out here to write and said, Well, she said, we'll figure it out. You know, and having her with me in that confidence, you know, enabled me to take more risk. And to this day, she's a writer, she's a fantastic writer and producer herself. Um, matter of fact, she's Captain Watkins on The Equalizer, you know, she's an actor too, and she's fantastic. And we've always prided our ourselves on, you know, we always have to put ourselves in a position to be able to take risks, you know, um, because that's what we came out here for. And you don't want to get locked in. You know, I'm knowing I'm veering from what the original question was, and I'll get back to it. But we had to make sure that we always are able to take the risks necessary to do what we need to do. But to go back to the Honda Accord story, you know, I was living in my car and um I had to make that call, and I was like, this isn't gonna work, I want to come home, and they wouldn't allow me to come home, you know. So I had to do what I had to do, and that's when you really find out what you're made of, you test your metal, and you got to keep pushing.

SPEAKER_03 28:48

Wow. That will go down to one of the best answers we've had on the show to a question. I think um I'd love to say you're the first person to sleep in your car, you're not. We've had, I think, two of the guests, but still. Um, but I mean, you know, I think it's uh we haven't had it for a while. It's an incredibly helpful reminder to people that this industry is not straightforward. Um, and you know, you can be a big successful showrunner all you like, but there's a lot of you who had to do all sorts of things, sleeping in offices and sleeping in cars, and who knows what else to get here. So you you mentioned something earlier on about a showrunner sort of taking the time to uh talk things through with you, you know, let you be in charge of something to see how you get on and then talk you through what what you know what went, what didn't go well. Now that you are in that privileged position, how are you at supporting the next generation of potential showrunners? What what do you do that people did for you? What are you doing for other people now?

SPEAKER_00 29:55

I it's it's really simple. You know, I try to do exactly what Scott and Shane did for me, you know, and having a mentee is having another relationship. And you know, being in this position, if people know who you are, you know, people run up to you and they just ask, hey, will you be my mentor? You have to explain to them. It's not it's not that simple. Um, you got to establish a relationship. You know, you need to see something in each other because being a mentor and being a mentee, it's a lot of it's a lot that goes into it. And it's not just, hey, read my script and give me notes. Like you want to walk somebody through, you know, how to move and how to operate and maximize their abilities because their abilities are going to be different than mine, you know. Um, and so you have to target or pinpoint people, and that doesn't mean you can't help people. That doesn't mean they need to be a mentee either. So you have to identify the people that you match up with, and I have those people that I've matched up with, and I do what uh Scott and Shane did with me. Let them be on the calls, walk them through the process. Here's how you pitch. I remember my first pitch session in Charles Holland, and I had never pitched before, and he was giving me an opportunity to pitch an episode, and I literally pulled out a sheet of paper and started reading, like, and so such and such does, and he goes, Whoa, whoa, whoa. He's like, Is that how you're gonna pitch it? I was like, Yeah. And he realized, he didn't realize I had never been in a pitch. He was like, Okay, we're gonna we're gonna pause this meeting, we're gonna push it, and I'm gonna show you how to do this. And he showed me how to do it, and then you know, we ended up getting it done. But you gotta take the time, you gotta pay it forward. You know, I had a lot of people open doors for me. Um, Charles Floyd Johnson, another one. Like I had a lot of people in my life and in my career who opened doors. So you don't pay it forward, you know, that's part of the job. You know, you're you're you're being remiss. So yeah, so I take the time, you know, the script's not right. Kevin Arkadai, another one. He beat me up on a script so bad one time that you think uh, you know, I would have left the business. There was so much red ink, you know, on the script. But it was out of love. And, you know, Kevin's that personality, he wants you to get it right. And he's also testing you, like, you know, can you take the criticism? You know, so you got to be honest too. So you have to, you know, you develop that relationship with the mentee where I have to be able to give you the truth. I have, but you gotta know, understand, you know, because of the relationship, it's coming from a place of love, and I want you to succeed. So there's no time to mess around, you know, and tiptoe around it. You know, you're gonna come up against a lot of rejection in this thing, and you got to be able to power through the rejection and make the changes and do what you got to do. So to pass that on to somebody else, you know, you're building up that next level, that next wave of people, you know, who come and you want to treat it as a treat. I feel like I'm part of Scott Gimmel's treat. You know, I think Scott can look back at my career and Kyle Haramoto's career and feel proud about that. Like he had a hand in that. And I want to be able to do the same. You know, so you're helping somebody out, you know, you're paying it for it, and you feel that's that's you know the service part of this job.

SPEAKER_03 33:07

Um another another great answer. I guess I'd like to go from a powerful, meaningful answer to a real question to possibly a slightly superficial answer to a possibly slightly superficial question. But given the journey that you you had to go on to get here, I think you're allowed a superficial moment. What is your most, and maybe this is what you sort of the thing you tell your friends back at home, because this is the sort of question my English friends always ask me about living in LA. What's your most Hollywood silly? It might not even be, you know, it's not necessarily like a a script or a you know, the actual show, but just in the way in the town that we live in, some of the weird things that happen. What's your sort of single most Hollywood Hollywood moment that you've had since you got here?

SPEAKER_00 33:58

Hollywood moment, um in a superficial way. I'd I'll tell you, there's an episode of my this isn't superficial, but this was a big moment for me. First episode on uh NCIS, I did some huge, like fast and furious episode full of cars. You know, I love cars, that whole thing. And I can't even believe they let me do it. We we had so many cars in this thing, and um, you know, you got LL Cool J, Chris O'Donnell in there, you know, they've got the challenger, and I put like an old school Chevelle, and they're racing on the Fourth Street Bridge downtown, and we're flipping cars and all that stuff, and it was a fantastic episode. Um, I walk into a Best Buy and I hear these voices, and I'm like, wow, why does this sound familiar? And you know, it turns out to be dialogue from my from the episode, and I walk back into the television section, and on every flat screen in Best Buy, the episode is playing, and I'm sitting like, Holy shit, this is crazy, you know. Um, and I was just blown away. So that's not superficial, but um, that was a big moment for me. Just like I was sitting there and all like I can't believe this is happening. It was the equivalent of hearing your a song on the radio for the first time, you know. Um, that was cool. Superficial, I wouldn't call this superficial. Daniela Rua, um, fantastic actor and director now. Um, she played um Kinsey on the show. She got married in Portugal, and we all bombed over to Europe, you know, toured Europe, and then we all landed in Portugal, you know, for her wedding. But the fans of the show heard we were gonna be over there, and they found us in places and they kind of tracked our journey, like, oh, the writers of the show and the actors, you know, and that was one of the coolest things ever that people were tracking us where we were in Europe and they were trying to meet us at bars. And one woman had driven like nine hours. We were trying to go to some event, found out this woman drove nine hours to find us. We had to cancel the event and just sit and spend time with this woman because you know we appreciated her, like you know, or else she would have just had 15 minutes with us. So we made sure we took time with her, and you know, I think we're still social media friends and all that from years ago. So I don't I don't know if that's the same sort of deal, though.

SPEAKER_02 36:26

I I love both those answers. You made me think because L O Cool J Todd, right? He went for your show. I worked at NCS Hawaii and he joined us. And I had a night where we were doing in an episode that I wrote, a car sequ racing sequence, and you know, you're up late and you're just sort of there, and I'm just you know hanging out, and he's kind of nearby me. And I remember like spending like 40 minutes talking sort of the history of hip-hop with LL Cool J. And I'm like, you know, you got to pinch yourself sometimes that this is actually happening. Like you just you never really you don't process it in the moment, but this is a pretty cool moment. There's cars and stunts and things flipping, and I'm chilling talking about old school hip hop with LL Cool J. I mean, yeah, those are those are those are good moments, but okay, uh back to No, I I I have to speak on that real quick.

SPEAKER_00 37:10

Okay, because Todd, yeah, I mean he's an incredible human being, and you know, he's a good friend to this day, and he drops so many gems and and jewels on you and knowledge, and he's such a positive person. Like you come, you spend time with him, you feel like there's nothing you can't do. And um, but to we have one of those moments we're shooting in some dingy, dirty, crappy motel in Chatsworth on an episode. I mean, this place is dirty. You're like, okay, we might need to go get checked out after being in here. It's like that, that nasty. And Todd and I, we're just in, or we're in between setups, and we're sitting in uh just one of the holding rooms, hotel rooms, and it's just he and I, and we're just talking about you know, just life. And you know, I started hitting a beat on the table, you know, and he starts freestyling to and it's just me and him, and he's freestyling now. It was just one of those mind-blowing moments. Like, I'm sitting here with a legend that I followed, you know, growing up. I used to pull my pants, leg up. I had the can go the whole night trying to be him. And here I am working with him. And today he's a good friend. But you know, it was just one of those moments that, like you said, pinch yourself. Like I'm sitting in the hotel room, hitting the beat on the table, Nello Kujay's freestyling to it. And it's just he and I, and we're just kicking it. Like that was one of the coolest moments ever.

SPEAKER_02 38:25

One more teeny antidote that I'm asking you a real question. He once called me to his trailer because he there was a line that was super innocuous on his face. But he had pointed out if you edit the line like this, this, and this, he is going to be saying something very inappropriate. And he said that the way the internet works is that might become a meme, and everyone's going to be seeing LL Cool J say these series of words just like this. And I had never thought about that. And of course, we changed the line and it was done with, but like that, he had like, you know, he was very polite about hey, we got to change, you know, would you consider because of these reasons? And I was like, absolutely, my friend, we're going to change that line. Um, real question for you. Uh, you talk about, you know, um, you're coming up with um, you know, someone redlining a script, which is always painful, but but a learning experience, someone telling you that's not how you pitch, this is how you got to pitch. So giving you a second, you know, chance to do something a little bit better. And obviously, in the beginning part of your careers, hopefully, though it's filled with those second chances because you're not going to get it right the first time around. As a showrunner, where is your line? It doesn't have to be a specific story, but where is your line between willing to be someone's mentor and saying, We need to replace them? This is they're not actually not going to cross over and you know, I've given them their chances. And what is that experience like?

SPEAKER_00 39:52

You see it coming, you know, and it goes, it depends on the level of the writer. You know, Chambernan used to say, I'm gonna give you two seasons to you know to pick this up, you know, and you know, you'll find out, you know, I'll know if it's for you or not. You'll know if it's for you or not. And I think that timeline um has collapsed a little bit, you know, depending on who you're bringing in. The younger writers, you want to give them a chance. You gotta have a chance to fail in this business, or you know, you're gonna cycle a lot of people out, you know. But you want to see people who are taking notes and at least trying. And so, you know, you got to have that nugget of talent, but you know, you got to believe in your part of this job is being, you know, a teacher. So you have to give, you know, if you brought them onto your staff, you believe there was something about them you believed in, and you gotta try to harness that. If they if it's not coming through, I think you gotta give them, you gotta be fairer to them to give them the opportunity to try to learn. You can give notes, give notes, sit them down, have all the discussions, but also you got a job to do on the other side. You know, this job takes a lot of time. So, how much time can you dedicate to spending with that? So you gotta delegate a little bit, use the people under you, like, hey, can you talk to you know Tracy about this? You know, and if you're still not seeing progress, you know, you then I'll talk to Tracy. And then, you know, you want to give the opportunities, and then but if it's not happening, you got to make the call. And as those um, as the position, you know, as they rise in rank, you know, you're gonna be a little more forgiving for this to the staff writer, you're gonna be a little more forgiving to the executive story, the executive story. But when you get to that, you know, supervising um producer and co-ep, you're expecting, you know, they got to this position and you need something from them to make your show run. You know, so even on those levels, you want to give a chance and you want to see how they're responding to the notes and um the information. And if you're not getting what you need, just for the for the health of the show, you got to make a change. You know, at some point, you know, if you're doing the work that they're supposed to be doing, you know, that's not making the show better. That's taking time away from something else you need to be doing because there's always something else to do, you know. But you also got to be a human about it. You know, these are people who are trying to have a career, some who have families, so you want to give them every opportunity possible. At some point, you just got to call it, and you and you can see it. And it doesn't mean they're a bad writer, some shows just aren't for certain people, yeah, you know, sensibilities.

SPEAKER_03 42:32

Yep. Um, so we we're straying into this territory anyway, but um, we are unfortunately uh at the wrong end of the podcast, and it is time for the final question.

SPEAKER_00 42:44

Um and you've already we're we're here already.

SPEAKER_03 42:47

You've um you've sort of been doing this all the way through. So um I'm excited for your answer to this question, but we ask every guest as the last question. If you could give a single piece of advice to somebody wanting to end the enter the industry, what would that single piece of advice be? Run.

SPEAKER_00 43:05

Um be honest with yourself, you know. Uh I think the perception of what this business is, you know, doesn't match the reality. It's a lot of work, you know. And you I I said it earlier, you know, you have to really love it. Um a buddy of mine said, you know, showrunning is like being beat to death with your own dreams. You know, it's just that much that goes into it. Um Ben Watkins uh dropped that one. Uh you know, piece of advice, you know, when I tell the younger writers when I speak at the guild and other places, you gotta ask yourself two questions. You know, the first question is, do you want this? And it sounds like a simple question. It sounds like, you know, of course I want this, or I wouldn't be here, but you really got to think about what that means. You know, do you want this? Like, do you want it more than anything else? If you could be doing something else, like, you know, is it the engineering or teaching or psychology, whatever, if you rather be doing that stuff, then you should go do it. But if there's nothing else that you would rather be doing, you know, you should, you know, you should go for it. So ask yourself, do you want this? You know, take that walk in the park, whatever your special place, really think about that answer. If the answer is no, then go do that other thing and you can let this go and let that itch go that I think I can do this, let it go. But if the answer is yes, ask yourself the second question. Are you willing to do what it takes to get it? You know, and again, take that walk, go back to that beach or your park or your special place or whatever that is, and really think about that answer, you know, because it's gonna take everything you have to get it. You know, are you willing to sacrifice? Are you willing to sit, you know, at your place, you know, when everybody else is partying, everybody else is having a good time and enjoying LA and enjoying New York, and you're just at home working on what you got to work on, you know, whether it's learning how to network, whether it's working on that script, where whether it's studying, when everybody else is playing, are you willing to work? Like it really takes like my wife jokes, like she can go to parties now, and there's, you know, they're like, Where's now everyone knows where I am now, but over the years, like, where's Joe? He's working, you know, you got to be willing to sacrifice. So if you answer no to that question, are you willing to do what it takes to get it? Then free yourself. You know, go do something else. But the answer is if you can answer yes, are you willing to do what it takes to get it? Nothing's gonna stop you from getting it. Because you're gonna learn, you know, with you know, the definition of patience, persistence, dedication, discipline, strength, and endurance. And, you know, that's what it's gonna take to get through this. So you just gotta be honest with yourself. And it's easy to say, yeah, I want it, but you got to be real about that. And, you know, this is it's a tough business.

SPEAKER_03 46:00

A magnificent answer to go at the end of an episode full of magnificent answers. Um, Joe Wilson, East Cleveland's one of East Cleveland's greatest exports. Um, thank you very much indeed for your honesty and candor and insights. And there are so many sound bites on here. Um, thank you very much indeed, Joe. It was amazing. It was a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 46:21

Look, there's so much more to tell. We can do this again whenever. But you guys are fantastic. Thanks for having me on as well.

SPEAKER_02 46:30

Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again for music. As always, each episode is brought to you by Scriptation, my favorite screenwriting annotation software. If you want to support the show, please download a copy at www.scriptation.com backslash.

SPEAKER_03 46:51

Or perhaps even better, www.scriptation.com backslash dan.

SPEAKER_02 46:56

Dan is probably if you want to find me on social media, I'm at Twitter at NEPslin, and more recently on threads at normalpslin.

SPEAKER_03 47:10

Don't worry about me on social media, because all you people seem to care about me.