Take 116 - Writer, producer, showrunner Ted Cohen, Friends, Veep, Succession

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for shore, dozens of unproduced script littering.

SPEAKER_03 0:14

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is to be able to do it.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

And I think I'm gonna do it for me. I do like one bit card. What I've realized that that will be never one bit card. There will be another shot.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

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SPEAKER_03 1:20

Dan, I I think this is where they actually want me to talk about how much I love it. And I do love it, it's great. It's collating function transformed me from the messiest writer in Hollywood to, well, ever so slightly less messy. My wife might have other things to say about that. Sitha listeners can get a free month of scriptation by going to scriptation.com backslash scitha.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

And for those of you who don't understand slightly drawly American accents, that's scriptation.com backslash S-I-T-H-A. Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. I am as ever your non-entertainment co-host, Dan Rutstein.

SPEAKER_03 2:09

And I am still in the entertainment business, hopefully, the still in the entertainment business, co-host Noah Evels. On today's podcast, I'm thrilled to introduce TV writer, producer, and showrunner Ted Cohen to the podcast. Ted has written on so many great shows, including but not limited to Friends, Rules of Engagement, Veep, and Succession. He's also won four primetime Emmys for his work on these shows. Welcome, Ted.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Thank you. I'm happy to be here. So um I was hop-nopping at a very Hollywood party the other day, an 11th birthday party, uh, at which I bumped into Ted, and as awkward parents do when the kids are off playing together, we start chatting and we started chatting about. I think he'd just come back from England where he was working on some TV show. And obviously, this is Hollywood, so I'm like, yeah, I'm I'm sure, I'm sure you were um working on your little independent show. And then we discovered, of course, that it was succession, uh, which is done reasonably successfully. And then we realized that Ted is the perfect guest to come on the show. So I'm I'm delighted to have you join us, Ted, after our fortuitous, fortuitous meeting. Um, so you have quite a obviously quite an impressive selection of credits. You worked on some incredible shows. Uh so I'm sort of stuck on the you know, where can we find some failure stuff? But I I'm gonna I'm actually gonna start with because I always find this fascinating, the the Emmys. So you've won four, which is not bad work. Um tell me how you feel at award shows where presumably you've obviously won some, but you've also not won others. Talk talk me through what it what it's like. Because it's I know you guys aren't in it for the awards, but then you presumably still enjoy dressing up and winning some.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

Yeah, I mean, I it's I always say it's nicer to win than to lose, which is, I mean, probably most of us feel that way. I probably I think I've lost more Emmys than I've won um over the years, and um you know it's it's always a weird thing because by the time you're there and they're doing it, it's often a year or two in the past. So it's um it's not like part of your daily life. And and it and it's lovely just because you get to see people you haven't seen in a while, you know, I haven't seen the cast and the writers and um and stuff like that. Um but um yeah, what can I say? It's it's really nice, and then you know, right afterwards, especially as a writer, you realize how small and inconsequential you are because no one wants to talk to you, they just want to talk to the actors, um, and maybe to a certain extent to directors. But um, but uh, but you know, it's always whatever. It's always nice to be to be recognized, you know, and uh, and I've just you know, I've I've been lucky enough to work on shows that were like good shows that also got recognition. I mean, there's so many good shows that then don't get that kind of recognition. Um, and I think that can be really frustrating for people. Um, but uh, but yeah, I've been I've been lucky, which is nice.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

What's the uh the cutoff line? And I I genuinely have no idea about this for for making it onto the stage, because obviously when the show wins, not obviously an individual person, then you you tend to see sort of quite a lot of people come up, and obviously you recognize the cast, and then you know, in the case of succession, you sort of recognize Jesse. But do all the writers go on? Is there a line? Have you always been above or below that line to make the stage?

SPEAKER_02 5:52

I think everyone rushes the stage. Not everybody gets an Emmy. You have to have a producer credit or above. So if you're a writer below producer level, like exec story editor or story editor, staff writer, everybody still goes up, but you don't get a uh a statue. Um, but I think it's just, you know, it's more fun the more people are up there, obviously. Um, and and you know, everyone does work so hard on the show, it's like, um, in a way, it's kind of ridiculous. The I mean, I know they have to draw the line somewhere, um, but sometimes it's kind of ridiculous where it actually gets drawn.

SPEAKER_03 6:33

Let's we're we're Dan, I think Dan jumped us to the climactic part of this podcast, which is the point about the Emmys. Let's backtrack a little bit so people can get some context on your career. Uh, you know, I only mentioned four of your at least 14 credits, uh, friends, you know, it's look like you're on over a hundred episodes of Friends, but let's talk about, you know, before that, because obviously there might be a before and after Friends, and then even a middle period for you. But like uh, what was it like trying to break into the industry? And were you were there any challenges for you when you were first getting started?

SPEAKER_02 7:06

Absolutely. I mean I I started my career with with terrible failure, um, which was I I actually went to law school and um I, you know, after college didn't really know what I wanted to do. Um, I applied to law school like many people do when they don't totally know what they want to do. And I quickly realized like I was just gonna make the worst lawyer of all time. I worked at like a big corporate firm for the summer, and um, and I just remember being given assignments and just not just looking at them and not knowing uh how to make heads or tails out of them and just shoving them in a desk drawer and realizing like I I needed to find something else to do fast. And really, um, I had I knew a few people who already were out here. I didn't, I was like, you know, I grew up on TV, but I didn't, it wasn't like books or movies. I didn't had no idea that it actually got written by real people and all it just sort of I thought they just, you know, the shows just showed up on on your screen and that was it. So I didn't really realize it was a job. Um, and uh and I had friends who were out here who were who were doing it. Um, and so with my writing partner at the time, with my best friend from college, we started, we wrote a a spec Simpsons, um, and uh in which Homer gets wrongfully fired. And actually, Alan Dershowitz played Alan Dershowitz was his attorney, um, his wrongful termination suit. So I was able to use some of my law school um uh education for that. And and um, and then you know, we we wrote, we did what everyone does. Like we wrote specs, we got on, you know, there's the first show we ever got on was a show called Minor Adjustments. It was like about a psychologist who, like a child psychologist who's really bad with his own kids, but really good at his job. And it was like on 7:30 on Sunday nights, and every the network, everyone cared about it so little that it because I think it was on like on after it often would get bumped because of football. And so at some point the network was like, could you just write sort of three separate standalone acts of the show so we can air it in like an eight-minute segment, a 12-minute segment, or a 20-minute segment, depending. So it's sort of like, and we and Andrew and I got we got fired from that show after I think 12 episodes. I think it went on to 18. And then, you know, we worked on a couple of other shows that were um very short-lived, um, uh and were um, and then Andrew knew a couple people who were already on the staff of friends, and um, and um, and so they had read our stuff and rejected us, I think first season and second season and third season. And then at the end of third season, you know, we'd already been on probably like three or four other shows by that point. Um, we they were like it was like they were on episode 23 of 26 or something, and they were completely burnt out, and they were like, Why don't you guys come in and basically audition? Um, and um, and so we came in and they gave us what I'm sure to them was like how they did things at the time. So they broke out the stories, but they were so uh running on fumes that basically they gave us almost nothing, and they were like, Can you add the script in on Monday? And this was like on a Thursday. So we were just totally shitting bricks. I mean, it was like we're the we knew that if we didn't do a good job, that we'd never get hired on the show, but we also were not given the tools or the time with which to do a good job, which completely paralyzed us. And we spent the whole weekend, you know, writing, like thinking, this is terrible, this is terrible. And um, but we handed it in and they managed to turn it into something, and um and we didn't embarrass ourselves, I guess, enough that then when it came time at the beginning of fourth season to hire, they had some people leaving and they needed fresh blood. And so um that's when we actually got a permanent position on the show. But it was like it was definitely a um a scary process. Um, and I think by that point, you know, even when you're on a show that's coming back, like friends, you know, you don't know if you're coming back every year. And I always, and I think maybe that's just a writer mentality, but like even though I thought everyone liked us and I thought we did a decent job and we were moving up the ranks, you still always have this feeling like they're gonna just drop the bomb on us, right? Like we're not coming back next year. Um, and so I think that, and especially in a show like Friends, which was like, you know, the it was an intense process on that show. Like we often would work, you know, we we didn't work on the weekends, but you know, during the week it was not uncommon to work 80-hour weeks um and to sort of, you know, have someone hand you a McDonald's breakfast as you were leaving at six in the morning to go home and then to come back for the rehearsal at three o'clock or you know, um, that afternoon. So um yeah, I mean, I you know, it and I maybe that's a good thing about that. That's a that was one of the reasons why the show I think was successful and why people cared about it is because we all really cared about it. And um, but you did kind of we were always operating uh sort of under the feeling of like you're only as good as your last, as the last good episode. And we always were very self-critical, and so there was always a feeling of like it could always be better. Um, and I think um, so I mean whether whether or not I mean the show is a success, but I think it was a success due to kind of a failure mindset on the on the part of of all of us that we were always um just about to kind of go under. Um and and there was a lot of that kind of high pressure, I think, for us too.

SPEAKER_03 13:42

I I don't think by the way, that feeling 30, I don't know, 25 years, however long, 30 years might have passed, but that feeling of that you feel like you're gonna get fired every year stays for almost every Hollywood writer on every job. That's I think it's uh what come what what joins us all at the hip is our fear that we're gonna die. But you I mean, die. Fear that we're gonna get fired, you're not gonna die. You will die of uh, you know, other reasons. But the I want to go back back to something real quick because you kind of blew by it. Um were you given a freelance, or were you asked to write this thing on spec in four days, and then they were judging it based on that? Or were did your did your agents call you and like, guys, we got good news and we got bad news? Good news is you've got a freelance, bad news is it's due Monday, you're going to meet them today on a Thursday.

SPEAKER_02 14:24

It was basically that. It was, yeah, it was like totally last-minute decision. They realized, you know, like they they could use a hand to have somebody else bang out a quick draft of this. Everyone else was exhausted or working on other things. And so the opportunity just sort of came about out of nowhere. Um, and uh yeah, so um, and then and and so it was a it was a freelance, um, but it wasn't like, yeah, you'll, you know, we didn't know in September you're gonna come in in March and do this. It was just like come in, you know, whatever, put down what you're doing. And I think we were working on something else at the time, which we did, but just you know, like and and come and and and you know, audition for this job.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

So obviously, friends did reasonably well. Um, you were on the show, it was doing well, you got to rush the stage, um, get your get your emmy. Um when you came off Friends, did you get a sort of post-Friends bounce career-wise in terms of your next role? And given what you said about the fact that everyone always thinks they're gonna get fired, did you think once it finished that you would get something else, or were you worried that you would that would be your that would be it? I think so.

SPEAKER_02 15:52

We we went straight from friends into a development deal, which at the time was at is at Paramount, which then got swallowed into like CBS productions, which was at the time a fairly well-trod path, right? So you would come off a show, you know, if it was a successful show, and do your own development. And that was very much a rude awakening because um, you know, I uh by the end of Friends, like we'd been there for seven years. Um, and you know, you've gotten good at doing something, right? Because you're there, you know, day in and day out, and you've kind of risen with the show, and the show is successful. And then, you know, we were but we were young and inexperienced in development, had never developed anything, and it's just a completely different beast. And as you guys know, I mean, the success rate is so low. So, you know, going into that, I think, just on the basis of just youth and and naivete, like we're like, okay, well, now we'll just make our friends, and uh that's not how it works, you know what I mean? And and and so, you know, we we wrote, you know, over the course of like 10 years, you know, we wrote probably two pilots a year for 10 years, sometimes more, you know. Um, and we got to shoot some of them, and you know, um, and some a few, I think, you know, were were good. And probably, you know, I I I'm I was deeply saddened when they didn't get on. And some I was like, we did this to this was a disaster, and I'm glad it didn't go anywhere. But I mean, it was definitely a, you know, for me, um it was development in that way was hard. It's really, it's really hard. It's a totally different skill. And I do think, Dan, just to answer your question, and you know, I I think one one thing I will say is nobody really cares if if you're coming off of a hit show or show that does well, if you created the show, if it's your show, I think you get there is lots of goodwill and there's a desire to see what you do next, and there are people who are out there who are going to give you, you know, some freedom kind of to do what you want. If you're on a staff, it doesn't really give you anything. I mean, honestly, I mean, I don't, I don't it it really doesn't because you're part of the team, but you didn't create the show. And I think that there is a there is a difference there. I mean, there just is. Um, so I and and I think to that was like I think a lot of people think, well, I'm gonna come off the show and then I'm gonna, like I said, I'm gonna I'm gonna make mine. I'm not gonna do my friends, and it just doesn't, it doesn't work that way. You don't get a leg up, you don't get um any special consideration. I think the people who are deciding the shows, they're not deciding them based on stuff like that, but deciding on what gets picked up has nothing to do with that. You know what I mean? An actor gets something picked up, but like, you know, unless you're like if you're David Benioff and D V Weiss, if you're if you're somebody like that and you've like run a super duper hit show, then maybe your your expertise, you know, is a factor in whether or not a show gets picked up. But other than that, I don't I don't think it carries forward. I really don't. I think that's one thing about this business. You do have to keep you have to keep proving yourself. I mean, I guess is kind of what I meant by the that failure mindset is like the second that you start thinking, well, I should get this or I deserve this, or but I just did this, so I should get that. I think you're um it doesn't work. It doesn't work. I think um I think it's always about you have to keep sort of showing people what you can do. And um and I think also you have to keep putting yourself out there, working on new things, meeting new people. You know, I think otherwise, you know, I I I know a lot of people who I think you know, they came off something very successful, and then you know, we're thinking, I'm just gonna get on another show that's gonna go for eight years or 10 years, and it doesn't happen. And it's very easy in that situation to kind of just wait and wait for something to come your way. And I think that ends up um not working most of the time, you know.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Um bringing your Emmy with you to pitch meetings doesn't really mean anything.

SPEAKER_02 20:59

It doesn't. It doesn't mean anything. No, believe it or not, it just comes off as as desperate and and grasping and and and insecure.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

Um to that point, Ted, that as you say, being on one doesn't guarantee you'll be on any more. Um I know writers are terrible at answering answering questions about why they're so good, but you've now been on uh you know friends and veep and succession, all shows that obviously they're very good shows in a in a you know if you're in Hollywood, you know, there's ways people look at them, but also they're just big shows that everyone's heard of. How have you managed to do that? Given you don't get a freebie by being on Friends, how have you managed to have three incredibly successful shows that you've been on for significant periods of time? What what have you what do you attribute that to?

SPEAKER_02 21:56

Well, you know, I mean I I I um I'll point out like Friends ended in 2004, right? And then I I went on to VEP in 2016. So I did I did 10 years of development and um and working on other people's shows and stuff too, you know. Um, and then a couple of years of of two or three years of kind of wandering in the desert where I I really I knew I didn't want to keep doing comedy. Um and um and my partnership split up because of that. I I had decided I really wanted to do drama and try to kind of do some different things. And um, and so I basically I you know what I did was I had I I had a couple of ideas of like a an idea for drama, I wanted to do a spec, and I just sat down and I wrote it. And I and I and and that for me it was very liberating because I think after so many years of doing comedy development, where I know all the buyers, I know what they're gonna say about this or that. I know you're you're internalizing other people's voices before you've even sat down to write anything. I didn't know anything about drama. I didn't, and I and I knew I had an idea, and I was just like, I'm just gonna write this as though I don't know anything. I've never done it before. And that actually proved to be very liberating for me. And I think I actually wrote something that was compelling to people because I wasn't trying to get a job with it and I wasn't trying to do anything. And it kind of went back to like, okay, why did I take this job? Why did I do this weird job in the first place? Right. I don't want to be a lawyer. I want to do this because it's creative and it's fun and it's interesting. And um, instead, I'm worrying about is this pilot going to be good for CBS and for what do I need? Who do I need to get cast to, you know, to get this over this through the soup, whatever. And so I after I wrote that drama, then I started, then you know, people are like, This is good. I didn't know you could do this. And that's when some other doors started opening. So the door opened for me at at Veep, and that, you know, and then off of Veep, a lot of the people who were in some of the people involved in Veep were also involved in succession. So I knew them and I met them from being on the show, and they could see, you know, they knew me as a person, they read my stuff, and they were like, I think Jesse might like this. So they gave it to Jesse. So truthfully, I mean, I I love writing. I mean, and so I just do it even if I'm not being paid to do it, and I like to do things, but I do think that has something to do with um getting exposed in different areas. It's very easy to get pigeonholed because that's what that's what, like anything else, right? You're learning a specific craft. You're like, I write crime procedurals, I write this kind of show, whatever. But and I think it's also because it's then the business, it makes it easier for agents and managers then to do their job, right? Because they're trying to get you one specific kind of job. But I think that's not why a lot of people go into creative pursuit. It's like you go into creative pursuit because you like to you like to come up with new things. You don't necessarily want to do the same thing over and over again. And you know, you you like to create things. And I think I, for me, I think one of the things that has led me to be able to show people what I can do is that I would somehow, sometimes at certain points in my career, unplug from the machine and say, I'm not gonna look at my bank account, I'm gonna write. And I'm just gonna write until this script is done. I'm gonna ask people to read it and get thoughts, and then I'm gonna put it out there and see if I can meet new people with it and get new opportunities with it. Does that answer your question, Dan? I mean, I think No, it really does.

SPEAKER_03 25:52

I mean, I I want to get even more granular because it's fascinating and it sort of circles a question I was having too. And I so for the bigger context for the audience, it's not like friends, friends and Veep and Succession are all comedies, but they're very different. And if you're not in the industry, you don't realize how different they are. You go from multi-camera friends world, which is a certain type of writing, to single camera single camera Veep world to more like feature succession's its its own beast. And I jokingly showed that I have the book for succession, like the book of scripts. Like it's so radically different in many ways that it's reset the paradigm yet again, right? So you you went through kind of three different paradigms of writing, and not only did you have to reinvent yourself, so you know, I was really curious about that moment of reinvention where you said you wrote a drama to get off of friends, because you are gonna get pigeon-poled, you're gonna be on multi-cams until you die if you're on friends and that's the thing you did. But you you broke out of that now, and also you said your um your your your writing partnership broke up at around that time. So, can we can we go back to that moment a little longer about like those moments of where you wanted to do something different? Did did you have an eye on the prize, or was it just time to reinvent Ted Cohen, the writer, or was it just a good idea and you weren't thinking about those other things and you just decided you had to go for it?

SPEAKER_02 27:15

I certainly didn't have an agenda. There was no eyes on the prize. I was hopeful in the way that everyone is hopeful that that um that what I was doing would lead somewhere. But mostly the thing that I try to trust is like, and I, you know, the thing I try to trust is I'm sitting down, I'm writing this, I'm like, is it moving me? How am I am I enjoying this? Does this feel good to me? And if you I feel like for me, I have to trust that feeling. So, because if I don't, then I don't think anyone else will. But like, and so I I definitely knew I didn't want to do comedy anymore. And I also to say, I I'll back up and say, the other thing that I honestly just did is like I got older, right? So it's like, and I think that it's very easy if you're on a path to be like, I want to keep doing this job that I did and that I was good at when I was 25 or 30 or 35, right? But for me, that was like, who am I now? Like, I don't, I'm not gonna be the as I'm not gonna be as good at writing those shows as I was when I I don't want to write a show about dating in your 20s when I'm in my 40s or my 50s. Like, I don't know anything about that, and you can't speak to other people. So sort of like to me, it was also just taking stock of who who how have I changed? Where's my brain going, you know? Um, and and so the decision to do something different was um it was a conscious decision, right? It was a conscious decision to kind of um write, but I didn't have any idea what I was gonna do with it. I really didn't like, and you know, I do remember like after I wrote uh I wrote the the first spec I wrote, which was I mean, lightly autobiographical, but it was fair really dark. Um and um really, really dark drama. I think probably I was like unconsciously trying to show people I was not, I didn't, I I could do anything other than just comedy. Um but I you know I wrote that and I remember giving you know my agent and I, you know, I met around on it, I ended up selling it. It never got made, but like so it came, it was like staffing season. This was back in whenever it was 2015 or 14 when there was still staffing season and pilot season and all that kind of stuff. And I was like, you know, she was like, Do you want to staff? And I'm like, Yeah, send me everything, send me what's out there. And I and I and I read the dramas and I was like, you know, shit, this is all this is the this is the drama version of the comedy stuff that I was trying to get away from. It was like, it wasn't why I wrote this thing that I wrote, and it wasn't what I wanted to do. And I felt like, oh no, I dug myself out of one hole, I'm gonna go now jump in another one. Do you know what I mean? And so I I um I tried, you know, really, really hard to kind of just get one of my own projects going. You know, I wrote a couple more specs and and stuff like that. And then um, you know, and then and then the job on Veeep came and I was like, I wasn't gonna take a comedy job, but I also wasn't ever gonna say no to that because I knew that it, you know, it leads different places, and it's like you don't, you don't to work again to get to work with people of that caliber, it's like you'd be crazy to say no, you know what I mean? Um, you uh you just learned so much. Um but um but yeah, so it it wasn't there was no um greater goal. There was really a kind of returning to um basic principles, I guess I would say, right? And um in the hopes that that would lead to opportunities that I really wanted to take.

SPEAKER_03 31:09

Can we talk about greater goals? Because you're bringing this up uh right now. It's kind of interesting to me. And I don't mean to like jump through well, we're gonna talk about succession some more because it's such a pivotal part of your career. But uh you you you mentioned sort of some regrets about not having your own show, and you come off of 128 or 38 episodes of Friends, 10 years of development pilots that got shot but not made. Then you go into two, write your you write your your dream spec, uh it gets bought, not made. You go to two amazing shows, back to back, Veep, and and you know, succession. So you've been sort of out of that market for a little bit. Now you're coming off one of the biggest shows of all time, actually, two of the biggest shows of all time. And uh are you ready now to create your own show? What happens now for you? Like where's your where's your pet space?

SPEAKER_02 31:54

I mean, I've been doing, I've been writing my own pilots and doing things for the last alongside Veepen succession. So, you know, I think I've probably written five or six pilots um over the course of the and very different ones for different buyers and everything. Um and some of them they're on different yard lines, right? I mean, some of them, one of them I wrote, I started a big international thriller. I started writing like about six or seven years ago, um that that came to life and then died and then came back to life, and is now I'm waiting to hear about it, um uh whether or not it's gonna go. Um, and then a bunch of other ones that are sort of different stages of being done, another original idea and a couple of things that have been brought to me. So it's not to say that coming off coming off of succession, especially, um I've had a lot of things, you know, come my way, which is really, which is really nice. Um and um and yeah, I'm trying to, you know, I try to say yes to as many things as possible because I know that things aren't, you know, it takes first of all, anyone who thinks like, oh, I can't do these projects, what if they both happen at the same time? It's like never happened in the history of the world. And and often I find I'm doing different kinds of work on different projects at the same time. So I kind of like I'm only ever really actively engaged in like that day-to-day kind of grinding, working through the problems of writing a pilot like on one or two things at a time. And then with other things, it'll be okay, I've got to come up with a pitch or I've got to write an outline and stuff like that, which I don't need my morning full capacity brain to do. So I can kind of you know do some intense writing in the morning and then go on and do other things in the afternoon. So, but it's all to say, like I truly try to do um, I've had a lot of interesting stuff come to me since succession ended, and um and yeah, and I'm trying to say yes to it. I think I also don't just answer your question, but like I've always I really want have wanted ever, you know, since I started doing this to do something that was my own idea, um, that really came from me. And that tends to be the stuff that I'm most attracted to. It's not really where the business is right now. I mean, it's sort of like there's so much um IP, there's so much TV that's based on magazine articles and books and podcasts and stuff. It's just, you know, I don't know enough about market forces to know why, um, other than I think it probably has something to do with um, you know, increasing conservatism, I think, in the business. And people want to have something that they can hold on to and say, this book sold this many copies, or this podcast had this many listeners. It's a kind of safety net for people. But like, you know, I I think about TV is its own art form. And I think there's something to us like to creating a series that's meant to be a series by people who have been doing this and kind of know what a series, what could be it, what could make a good series. I don't think that gets a lot of you don't see that a lot anymore. But it's actually, I was thinking about this when I was at the Emmys, and it was like, what won all the awards was like it's the bear, beef, and succession, three original ideas by three really talented, you know, groups of people. Um, and they were nurtured and protected by the places that put them on. There was a level of trust, I think, you know, and belief in the creators. And I think when that happens, you may, I think there's a risk being taken in that, yeah, this isn't from a James Clancy book or from a whatever it is, but there's a chance at I think at a greater at something greater, because I think it's it's you know, it's it's um it's specific to the medium, it's specific to what you're doing, right? And and I think it's also when you have really, you know, smart people who have thought through what are the seasons of this show, not in a in a way where they know everything that's gonna happen, but in a way that they're like they've been thinking because you have time, because it takes a really long time to make these things, that it's like you have five or six years to think, oh, this would be a great story for here or that. There's so much thinking that goes into that. And I think I wish it got a little bit more um uh it was a little bit more respected, I think. Because I think at the moment, anyway, it's you don't see that much of it, even though I think it's where the great successes come from most of the time.

SPEAKER_01 37:19

So, talking of great successes, I want to ask a this isn't really a failure question, so it doesn't really fit on the podcast, but succession was such an amazing show. I want to ask it anyway. So it's a sort of two-part question, I guess. Um at what point uh in the succession journey for you did you realize that not only was this potentially a show that was going to add to your growing Emmy collection, but it was also, as Noah said, it was a paradigm shift. Like it wasn't just another good show, it was a different way of making a show and telling a story. Like, was it obvious from the from when you interviewed Wari? I mean, when did you realize it was something more than just another room to be in?

SPEAKER_02 38:02

I think pretty quickly when I got into the room and I saw how differently things were done than on any other show that I have worked on. I mean, just the level of um, I mean, I will say like most of the succession people, 50% came from the world of comedy. From so um it was a fun room, and there was a lot of play and a lot of openness and all that, but it was also it's a really complicated show. And um, you know, um, and so I realized very quickly, oh, this isn't just sitting around coming up with stories about whatever, a three-beat story about like, you know, Phoebe's dating a guy who whatever is blank. Um, it's it it was the stories were complicated, they took place over the course of the whole season. And on top of that, to have to know and learn about business and finance, not stuff that I knew anything about, but to really kind of realize, oh, if you're gonna, if you're gonna do well in here, you need to learn more. So to me, it was also like afterwards, I would be giving myself a crash course and stuff. And Jesse also gave us all, we all had different research projects. So through the course of the season where you would be like learning, you know, I mean, like I did a whole big thing on like Rupert Murdoch's attempts to infiltrate the Chinese um uh entertainment market, and and and another one on like um uh Black Cube and like that, you know, um uh catch and kill stuff. And and so and and everyone had their things that they, you know, kind of had to um, which which often, by the way, none of it would end up on the screen, but it all kind of gave that texture to the show. Um but yeah, I I realized also was a really smart and intimidating group of people. So um uh it was it was it that was a that was a wake-up call to me too. It was like, okay, these everybody really knows what they're talking about. Um uh and not that that wasn't true on every other show I work that certainly on Veep we had you know we had people come in from the world of politics and talk and stuff, but it was such a more it was a more obviously satirical show, Veep, right? It was like it was very very heightened. So you could take reality and really kind of run with it, whereas succession was the tone of it was just completely different, even though you know you could say that there were satirical elements of it, like that it felt a lot of it felt very real. Like, um, you know, it was a weird, it was a it was a I mean it just sort of unlike I think you guys said this at the beginning, it's like unlike any other show I've ever worked on or seen where it's sort of even for me, like uh sometimes I feel like I like I write something or I do something and be like, well, I think this is exactly right for the show, and then everyone'd be like, No, that's not the show. And then you write something or say something, and be like, well, this is gonna sound really stupid. And then people like, yes, let's do that. So um it was, yeah, it's I guess I mean it really was a humbling experience. I mean, succession. I mean, it really was because um uh you know, it's like I mean, I've said this to people too, like, I understand why friends was popular, like I under, like I get it, right? It's like it was of one of the last kind of great like sitcoms that real mass appeal. It's about dating, it's about friends, it's it's stuff everyone can relate to. But if you think about succession, right, it's like it's such a um it's amazing that it caught on the way it did and that it captured people's imagination that the way it did, just because the world is so specific and so unrelated to most people's lives, right? Um, and so that kind of blew me away a little bit that it was um that it was as not that it I knew like you know, when you're working on something, you feel like, oh wow, this is good. These actors are good, everyone involved in the show is really good, but how it captured everyone's imagination became such a like in the must-see kind of TV. That was something that was, I think, a surprise, you know.

SPEAKER_03 42:48

You you you you mentioned something that's really interesting to me about the winners of last year's Emmy, the uh Bear, uh Beef, and Succession, uh, on top of all being one-word titles, they they are paradigm-shifting TV shows, which we keep coming back to. And I've talked about this with other people. They they shifted the writing of television too. The dialogue's different, the rhythms are different. The when I I'm on an action procedural right now, you know, anything longer than two and a half pages that's not on its feet, it's gonna die on screen. But here you guys have multiple people sitting down at desks just talking, right? But it's obviously they're not just talking for pages, 10, 12. I mean, this thing just goes on and on and on. How does that change you as a writer coming out? Because this is that did feel like new television to me.

SPEAKER_02 43:37

Yeah, no, I it's funny. Actually, I just finished a draft of something that's that is where like the last scene, the kind of the most dramatic scene in the show is a conversation between two brothers that's probably like 15 pages long, and they're just sitting in two chairs talking about their family. And I was like, I was thinking. Thinking about it because it was like, um, this is so different and and than exactly what you're talking about. Um yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's a good question. I can't say that I really, you know, that I really know what the answer is, except it to feel like that you're absolutely right. I mean, you felt it like tonally on all those shows, like, you know, the bear, like, you know, the second season of The Bear. I mean, those are almost like, you know, 10 short films, right? Like about different subjects exploring different facets of the characters, like um, and like that was yeah, pretty radical, I thought, you know, especially if if you've taken a you've if you think about it like what you're saying, like, you know, on a procedural or on a sitcom, like the whole point is to create a template that then is endlessly repeatable, right? And so to have a hit show that then in the next season, you're like, we're just gonna do throw out this lovely thing that we created, right? With all these relationships and these characters, and just do these kind of solo one-off episodes and have it work. Um, is yeah, look, it's a testament to the people who are involved, right? I mean, ultimately, but I agree with you, it's very different. And and I don't know, I mean, I could theorize, right? I think one of the things that's gotten thrown out in the age of streaming is the long time returning series, is shows like that are procedural, like crime shows, things like that, that used to be like, you know, kind of the backbone of broadcast television, right? And now I think the first few years of streaming was just endless novelty and new, new, new, new, and you know, the rise of the limited series with huge movie stars in them and everything. And I think it's I feel like the pendulum is swinging back, at least people what's what people tell me, like, right? Um, um uh, but I do think that there's a certain kind of pleasure in watching a show um that is you know what you're getting every week too. And I think um, you know, I mean, whatever, we did that on succession too, you know. I mean, I remember when you know there were long discussions about like when even in we talked about whether Logan should die in thirds during the third season and kind of quickly put that to rest. And then there were conversations throughout about when should it happen, when should it happen. And one of the things that I think, and this goes to your point about like trying to do new things, like Jesse was, I remember like at the table read for that episode. Um, because we talked about there was a strong resistance to doing it, to not doing it towards the end of the season, and then just sort of wrapping it up, right? Saying, like, we knew we wanted to tell a story about the siblings, and that was always part of it. But like, I remember Jesse wrote that episode, the Connor's wedding where Logan dies, and he's was like, you know, sometimes this show is a comedy, and sometimes it's a drama, and sometimes it's a documentary. And he's like, I like this uh this episode is a document, is a documentary episode. And if you watch it, it really is. And his uh I think really came from him this idea of wanting to death doesn't happen in a convenient narrow way, narratively when you wanted to. It's like drop it in the middle and then see what happens. And I think just because he is such a brilliant writer, he was able to maintain that kind of documentary idea through the writing of it and to resist, I think, to resist imposing order on it, which as a writer is really hard to do, right? Like you have your right, your brain, you want, you're like, Oh, I set this up. I now I gotta pay this off. And this character says this. It's like, no, and to be able to turn that part of your brain off is really, really hard. But I think the reason that episode was so good is because he was he did. I mean, and it really felt like I even watching it was like, and I obviously knew it was gonna happen. I'm like, shit, it doesn't feel like a character, it feels like a person actually died. Um, and um, and so just in terms of novel, I haven't seen I haven't seen anything like that on TV before, I think. Um, and it was a weird feeling watching it because it almost feels like you're watching a real event unfold, and part of you knows it's you know it's fictional, but your your brain has been tricked somehow into thinking it's real, you know.

SPEAKER_01 48:56

Extraordinary. Look, this is a fascinating episode. We could do this all day. I think Noah definitely would want to do a whole succession series, but that's not how this podcast works. So we're we're gonna have to wrap it up with what is our traditional final question. So, Ted, if if you could give a single piece of advice to somebody looking to enter the industry, what would that single piece of advice be?

SPEAKER_02 49:18

Um I would say write something you're really listen to yourself and write something you're really passionate about and try to put it out there. I think ultimately that is um is the thing that's gonna give you the mo the better the best chance of success on your own terms. Um I think. And you know, and I think throughout your career too, to go back and try to do that, um, to make the time to say, what do I, what kind of story, what kind of thing do I want to do now? What kind of story do I want to tell now? What's meaningful to me? Because I think that people are looking for that kind of thing and they respond to it if you put it out there. Very good.

SPEAKER_01 50:11

Ted Cohen, terrible lawyer, excellent writer. Thank you very much indeed for coming on our show.

SPEAKER_02 50:19

Thank you, guys. It's a pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 50:21

Thank you. Thank you for listening to this episode of Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss brought to you by Scriptation. Thank you as ever to James Launch for the music, and thank you to our loyal listeners. And if there's any showrunners out there who want to hear their fellow showrunners abused uh and ruffled around and put under the microscope so you can hear their stories of rejection failure and adversity, please send them our way. If you're interested in following us on social media, oh I've lost track.

SPEAKER_03 51:06

I am at nEbslin on Twitter or X or whatever Elon Musk now calls it. And thanks to Elon Musk, I'm also at NoEvslin on Hive, Scoutable, Blue Sky, Threads, Mastodon, MySpace, Friendship, and I'm sure of us.