Take 115 - Steven O’Neill, Head of Casting, Universal Content Productions

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Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for sure, dozens of unproduced scripts littering the Lord.

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All of us are running into both major and minor failures in almost every single day.

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SPEAKER_03 2:12

And I am hopefully still in the entertainment industry co-host, Noah Epslin. On today's podcast, I'm thrilled to introduce Stephen O'Neill, the head of casting for Universal Cable Productions. In his role, O'Neill has managed all aspects of casting for such shows as Dr. Death, Umbrella Academy Psych, The Girl from Plainville. And before that, while working for NBC Universal and NBC Universal Cable Entertainment, he helped cast such iconic shows as ER, The Office, Mr. Robot, Homecoming, and many, many others. Welcome, Stephen.

SPEAKER_04 2:50

Thank you so much. Good to see you guys.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

Thanks for coming on, Stephen. So I'm guessing this will be slightly different because I mean uh we will at some point ask you about uh your own career failures. Uh obviously, because of the the role you're in, I guess we we have to talk to you about uh crushing other people's dreams. And obviously, you know, helping some people achieve them, but obviously, given what our podcast is about, um, I'd be definitely interested in the crushing part. Um but let's just start off just to give a bit of a flavor. How did you get into this part of the industry? And is this where you wanted to be?

SPEAKER_04 3:38

Um I didn't know where I wanted to be when I first started. Um I was I was getting out of college, I had no idea what I was going to do. I had a degree in communications, but I had no idea what I was I was gonna do with it. I didn't I didn't know what was even possible. All I knew, I am from one of the one of the outer boroughs of uh of New York City, from Staten Island. Um my parents always loved theater. They took me and my brother and my sister to theater when I was a kid. I always loved it. And um so when I was getting out of college, I just thought, all right, well, I'll try working at a theater. I worked at a theater for a couple of years right out of school. And it was at this prominent off-Broadway theater that I was working at that I just sort of found myself drawn to these people in one corner of the office and even had to ask, what do those people do? And they're like, oh, they're they're the casting department. It was like, well, what do they do? Well, they decide who what actors are going to be in the shows. Like, oh, right. Oh, I get that's a job. Who even knew that was a job? And just because I was interested, I became friendly with the casting director. That casting director, to cut a little bit to the chase, she at some at some point after leaving that theater became a casting director at CBS. Um, as soon as she got that job, she asked me to go and be her assistant, which was my first job in casting. And I'd gone through a couple of jobs pretty quickly before that, each one realizing this doesn't really feel right, this doesn't really feel like my thing. But in rather short order, as soon as I started working for her in casting, I had that, thanks to Oprah, that aha moment of, oh, this is it. And so I figured I'm gonna ride this out as long as I can. And, you know, here we are a great number of years later. And I still love the process, I still love the job. Um, I don't love the part about what you said crushing people's dreams. I try to concentrate on making other people's dreams a reality. Um, so uh did that answer your question? I can't remember what the question was.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

No, no, it definitely does. Um, I really, really want to ask you. It's it's probably slightly unfair, but I I don't think I'm gonna have to ask you. Go ahead. So, look, obviously, I've seen quite a lot of the shows that you've cast, and obviously you've cast some brilliant people. Um and uh some of them have gone on to great successes, or you know, some have come in with some sex and gone on to more. But I guess the what I have to ask, not what's the worst sob story you've heard, but in terms of, and it's not necessarily about the the person who you didn't cast who would have been good in the role, but in terms of sort of somebody who you didn't cast, where you knew them quite well as part of the not casting them process. And I'm I'm not expecting a name here, but what what was maybe the hardest one for you where you couldn't give somebody a role and what it might have meant to them in their career or their or their personal life?

SPEAKER_04 7:10

Maybe maybe I'm a person who compartmentalizes even too much. Um I I honestly don't know the answer to that. And maybe it's because I just try to see the positive aspect of who is getting the job. And look, I'll also say, and I don't know that it's on purpose, but I'm and I'm not saying it's a bad thing for casting directors who do this. I don't have a lot of friends who are actors. I don't socialize with actors a whole lot. So it to me, there's not a lot of muddy area or blurred lines. To me, it's very much who's right for the role, who does the best job, who gives the best audition, what makes sense in this specific space. And let's go get that person and make that work. So um I have certainly, and like you said, I will not name names, but there have certainly been people in my life who, whatever circumstances I come across them in my life, and and they say, Oh, yeah, you didn't hire me for this, you didn't hire me for that. And like, sorry about that, but you're still working, you seem like you've been fairly successful. I'm glad it all worked out in spite of that, and good for all of us.

SPEAKER_03 8:43

Because I'm the nicer co-host, I want to piggyback on Dan's question, but I want to flip it because you've you've out you've cast such iconic shows, like for instance, just going back to two of them, The Office and ER. There was a lot of people on both of those shows who were unknowns going into those shows. Those shows exploded and they went from being, you know, I don't mean to be this is not meant to be pejorative, but like TV actors to big movie stars. Now, granted, the world's changed where movie stars are now on TV, all of that's kind of adjusted, but you've these shows have launched massive careers, some of them. Who are you the most proud of? Is there a name out there that you think that you really fought for and now their career is gangbusters?

SPEAKER_04 9:28

Um, first of all, I do want to give proper respect to um two people since you mentioned those two specific shows. Um the the point casting director for ER, from the pilot to its very last episode, was a man named John Levy, who um was a staff casting director at uh at Warner Brothers, and um did all of John Wells's shows for many, many years, from China Beach through, I don't even know what. He uh he did Shameless, so a lot of John Wells' shows. I was I was a pretty low-level executive in the casting department. Um and ER was actually the very first in the very first pilot season that I worked at NBC. Um and I also want to give props to my boss at that time, Lori Openden, who was the head of casting. Um and it was it was a pretty easy, I want to say easy experience. Um and very odd. And many people talk about this. The the pilot really came out of nowhere. The the script was something that um Michael Crichton had written. I think Michael Crichton wrote it, is that right? Michael Crichton. Right. Um, that Michael Crichton had written like in the 70s and threw it in, you know, a drawer somewhere, and then suddenly it just surfaced on my desk. Still had the 1975 date on the on the draft that I first read. And George Clooney actually had um a holding deal, if if you're familiar with the that term. Um, he was exclusive to Warner Brothers Television. He had been a, I think, a one or two season series regular on the on the show Sisters, which was on NBC for a couple of seasons, and they made a holding deal with him because of that. You know, George himself talks about you know doing like 11 or 12 pilots before ER ever surfaced. So he got on to ER um through that deal. Um the rest of the cast, it really, it really happened very easily. The I I hesitate to say this because I don't want to take anything away from Noah Wiley and how great he was on on the show for the life of the show. Um but shortly after I got into my job at NBC, um, I met this actor who was in graduate school at NYU, Billy Krudep. And as soon as I met him, I and I rarely say this, I sort of stopped him in his very first sentence. And I was like, you are something very, very special. And I have never said these words before, but you're gonna, you're really gonna be something great. And he was in his last semester at NYU, and I'll just say, since he's long out of school and I can't get in trouble now, um, we really tried to entice him to leave school for about two weeks to shoot the pilot of ER in that role that Noah Wiley played. Um and he just he wouldn't do it. He wanted to finish school. He was so true to himself and true to the process. And you know, I so completely understood why. He was so close to you know getting the degree. So he turned us down and clearly has done very well uh in spite of that choice. Um, so that's really the only one. I mean, Anthony Edwards, he might have tested by himself. Um, Sherry Stringfield, there were a couple of other people who tested against her. Um, it it really came together. And I think, I think in a lot of ways, it it sort of flew under the radar. So people weren't that concerned about it. They had minimal sort of expectations for it. So it wasn't under such a microscope. Um and, you know, like I said, um George was under a deal of Warner Brothers. So, you know, that that took care of itself in a way. Um, and so moving on to the office, um I really have to give props to um one of the finest casting directors working in movies and television today, Alison Jones, who was the uh the online casting director for that show, and is just amongst my people, a goddess and and just a genius. Um, who I'll just say, I think she had she herself is greatly responsible for what comedy on television and in movies looks like today. Um and so always so lucky to work with her. Um I was working at NBC in New York at that time, and I saw a lot of people in and out of my office um uh doing auditions. I uh clearly there was a lot of hype because the office was so successful in England before um Greg Daniels decided to adapt it for American television. Um I auditioned a lot of people. John Krasinski, I had met at some point. Um an agent friend of mine represented him in New York. Um John had been, and he talks about this a lot, I think. Um he had been an intern on Conan O'Brien show in the building. I worked at 30 Rock, and John was an intern at Conan O'Brien. And um and I was going to read him, but you know, we hadn't really gone through a lot of the process yet, and I hadn't really formed in my head what the roles were, and I had wanted to read him for the role of Dwight, which ultimately Rain Wilson played. Um, and his agent came back to me and he said, you know, look, he really thinks he's Jim. And if you don't want to see him for Jim, then he'd rather not come in at all. And so I put it away for a little while, and I can't remember if I went back to the agent or the agent came back to me again, and he said, so maybe Jim now? And like, okay, sure. He came in. I mean, we could we could have used his audition, and I think his I think his audition is even out there, and I think it's on like, you know, the DVD extras. Um and it's funny to me because I am the voice on on the other side of his audition reading with him, um, which always freaks me out. Um, but right after he read for the role, I I'm pretty sure I called Allison Jones and I said to her, you know, look, we've seen a lot of people pay attention to this guy. I I'm pretty sure we found our guy.

SPEAKER_03 17:01

That that's so fast. I mean, God, there's there's so much in that answer, but it brings me to actually right to my right to my next question. Now, you you know, on this podcast, I would say the the people that listen to it are about 90% writers. I'm a writer, we have a lot of writer listeners. Yep. And you know, uh a lot of aspiring writers who might not yet understand the process of the writer in television in regards to casting, right? So when I'm when I write an episode, we get about five to ten uh tapes that we get to look at, and the showrunner will choose, but the writer on the episode's linked looped in and the director on the episode looped in, and the casting directors are looped in, and we have a discussion about each person that we're looking at. And if we want more, we'll ask for more. And so obviously, there's been a process to narrow down the hundreds, if not thousands, the limited pool that we get to look at. What happens though? I'm really curious on the studio side, when you guys want somebody and the showrunner has a different idea for that person, how does that conversation go? And how do you guys, you know, ultimately decide? Because I know the studios, you were always hearing like not normally for like episode 307, but definitely for like the pilot, right? There's you have ideas for the pilot because there's, you know, I I worked a lot for CBS or whatever, but like CBS has their quote unquote people, right? The people they work with, people they like, the people that test well for them. So how does that conversation go? And have you ever had to uh, I guess, you know, as Dan put it, crush the dreams of a showrunner who might have wanted somebody else and the studio wanted somebody else?

SPEAKER_04 18:42

Um again, I I try to never think of it as dreams. Um, I think so much of what I do is bring people together and talk to the writer, talk to the director, talk to the studio people, talk to the network people, the platform people, um, so that we can all come to a meeting of the minds, um, whether it's in person or virtually, like this. Um because ultimately you do want everyone to feel like they've been heard and their point of view is being heard, and you want everyone walking into the show and certainly walking onto a set feeling like this is the cast I want, this is the cast the show deserves, we deserve. Um so you know, I think it's I think it's more of a discussion as opposed to, you know, and and I think I think the whole the whole notion and and you know, I haven't really worked in broadcast television in a long time now. But um, you know, I try and I can't remember the last time I had to do this, um, but I really try to stay away from no, it has to be this person for reason, or it has to be this person, it can't be that person. Um, you know, I I want to come to a meeting of the minds.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

So I'm I'm rather enjoying this, Stephen, and you're you're coming across as a very nice person, which is good. So because you're I think you've already passed the is he nice test, so I can now ask some slightly more difficult questions, and and people will still think you're nice. Um so not like we do the same job, of course, but I hire lots of people. I over the years I've hired lots of people from the various jobs. Oh, yeah, that's what you do. Well, I I I currently run a professional soccer team. Um I've I've had other sort of leadership jobs and I hire people, and I have a very strict rule, which is if I find a single spelling mistake in somebody's resume, then automatically, whoever they are, it goes. Because if you can't be on best behavior trying to get the job, then you're not going to be very good when you get the job. And this is something I've I agree with you. So, and you know, we may have lost good candidates over the years, but that's how I feel about that. Um, so obviously in your world, you're not necessarily getting resumes in the same way, but you're having people tape and and all that sort of stuff. I guess what leeway do you give people in the sense of if somebody tapes and it's not great, uh, or reads and it's not great, and then you know you get an email from their agent the next day saying, Oh, you know, he there was some personal issue and he'd like to try again and all that sort of stuff. Like 'cause if you let everyone like go two or three times, you'll never actually get anywhere. So are you pretty sort of like you've got one chance and this is your chance, and if you do it well, that's great. And if you don't

SPEAKER_04 22:00

Are you calling fixable? Um, I you know, every situation is different. And I think it's why um, you know, we casting directors for such we're such a an odd group in a way, where we're for the most part, you know, we love watching performances. We whether it's on television or in movies or on a stage, wherever it is. And to me, and look, my husband will very often call me uh a savant, a freak of nature. Um, it's like you know, a giant Rolodex in my head of all these different performances. And if I can, if I see something in someone's audition, and and I think there's something there, but I think they could do it in a different way. I will absolutely, and if we haven't, especially if we haven't found what we need and what we want yet, definitely give that person another try. Give them a little bit of direction, a correction, if you will. Um so yeah, and and even within the testing process, um, if someone starts off in a certain way, you know, we'll certainly like, you know, let's let's stop and let's try this over here. Um, so yeah, there's there's definitely room for movement. I mean, there's you know, it's it's half the fun of half the fun of the process is unearthing uh the finished product.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

So um there's there's an urban myth that some people for recruiting for big corporate jobs, you know, there's this sort of thing where in the old days the male boss would ask his secretary how people behaved in the waiting room to her as a way of deciding whether they're nice people. Now obviously the world's moved on and there's no waiting rooms and the bosses are often female anyway, but that was a sort of big thing in the old days. Is so when you go for a job interview, always be nice to the secretary just in case. Um in your world, um given that I think I can say this, not every talented artist is also a nice person. Um how do you and you presumably must have to do this because it's the nature of Hollywood, but are you good at separating the performance when they're reading the line from sort of whether they're a bit rude to people when they walk in the room?

SPEAKER_04 24:45

I can certainly see a good performance when I see one, of course. I will also say I can't not know what I know. So very often there might be a discussion about things I've heard, things I've read, and there are some producers who take that very seriously. There are some producers who brush it aside as you know, it doesn't matter, that's not what we're here for. We're we have to make the show, we have to make, you know, whatever the whatever the excuse is. Um so yeah, look, hopefully, hopefully everybody behaves.

SPEAKER_03 25:37

I think lately, uh my my career has spent has been like 17 years, and it wasn't this way so much to start, but and now for sure, the no assholes policy has really become more and more prominent. And if you have two people and one person's performance is better, but they're have a reputation that follows them, and the other person's reputation uh performance was good, but maybe slightly under that person's performance in that tape in that moment. I think number two gets a you know a leg up these days sometimes because man, one bad apple coming through your set, even as a you know, guest star, co-star, but especially if they're like a regular on the show, can really tank a whole show. It's really hard to, you know, the it kind of it's like infects everybody else in a weird way, and and and things start to go sideways in ways that are hard to explain if you're not there watching it. But do you have any, you know, um, you, you know, you've been involved with, I guess, you know, thousands and tens of thousands of performances that's in the Rolodex of your brain that you've watched, that you've that you've cast, that you've assisted in some way. Is there a secret sauce? You know, we're gonna, there'll be an advice section later on in this podcast. So it's not like a piece of advice, but like, is there something that helps these uh actors stand out in your mind to help get these roles just that they can begin to understand themselves? Uh, because I think a lot of them are kind of coming into it more instinctively and naturally when their careers are starting.

SPEAKER_04 27:08

Um recently, um, I've seen a clip um numerous times in the past couple of months. Um, Robert De Niro, I believe, talking to Stephen Colbert, um, I believe he was giving advice either to students or to his own children who were starting out um as actors and saying to them, um, you know what, when you go in the room, just make like it, there's zero consequence to it. Just assume you're not gonna get the job. And he said, the reason for that is if you assume you're not gonna get the job, then you're gonna make a bigger choice. You're gonna take a risk, you're going to do something that is not safe, and it's the not safe choice that will probably end up getting you the job or getting you noticed. And the very fact that you're willing to make a choice like that, even if you don't get that job, you will be remembered by that casting director, the casting executive who sees the audition, because you are willing to take that step. So if there's any way for you to get it out of your head that you have to get this job, just throw it out there. You're not gonna get this job. Just make some big, bold choice and do that.

SPEAKER_03 28:44

Funny, because I think I mean that's such great advice. But then I think sometimes people, especially when you're casting really small roles of one or two lines, they get really big because they want to stand out. And you're like, no, you really just want to say, you know, do you want fries with that in the most naturalistic way possible? Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_04 29:01

I mean yeah, I'm I'm talking about, you know, the the larger roles.

SPEAKER_03 29:07

Yes. Yeah. Um in in your career, you know, not other people's career, but in your career, have there ever been a moment? It looks like, I mean, from from looking at your resume, and I'm sure a lot of things, which was all spelled correctly, by the way.

SPEAKER_04 29:22

Um I am the spelling police, and people who work with me and work for me, they know I am the spelling police.

SPEAKER_03 29:28

Uh was there ever a moment in your own career where you were like, I'm done with this. I'm gonna, I'm out, I want to do something else. This isn't interesting to me anymore.

SPEAKER_04 29:36

Uh, I can 100% say to you, never, never. I still, I still come to work every day, and I mean the office every day. I love my office, I love my family, I love coming to my office away from my family. Um, and I look forward to the job, I look forward to the process, um, and still look for new ways to do the job, new ways to figure things out. And I mean, maybe partially it's because I don't know how to do anything else at this point, but I do love it. I I can't go and I could not go and manage a soccer team.

SPEAKER_00 30:18

So um, a couple of quite different questions. So, first one, sort of pandemic related in a way. So, obviously, I know quite a few people in the industry, and they um during the pandemic, obviously, when things sort of started up again a bit, but the auditions were on Zoom. People were sort of pleased that they no longer had to drive in from the valley down to the studios to then not get apart. Um, but then I also like the fact that they could do 17 different versions to get the and then send you the 17th. So getting the best version of them. So they sort of like save the money and save them time, they thought they could project themselves better from your point of view. Was it uh better because you could get through more people quicker and you don't have to sort of leave them waiting in the waiting room? Is it worse because you don't get to sit across them and feel it?

SPEAKER_04 31:12

Both. You don't get to sit in the room and feel it, you don't get to sit in a room and direct them. Um uh I I know a lot of people on both sides, both the casting side and the and the acting side, yearn for more of that and more of a return to that. Um but yeah, we could see, we could all see a lot more people for every single role. And that has its own frustrations because there were so many more people who felt so much closer to making something real and then it not happening. So, you know, I think there was more opportunity and and and they still couldn't quite get it. And they saw other people making it work, but it didn't work for them. And so it's it was, and it still is a hard thing to rectify in in my head.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

So second question. So um I've had the I'm not sure if pleasure is the right word, but there's been a few occasions where I've sat with Noah while we're watching an episode of one of his shows, and you know, his name comes on the screen and he gets very excited, and then there's some line in the show that he was very proud of, he gets very excited. When you're at home with your family watching one of your shows, when maybe a particular character comes on the screen, or there's a particular scene where that particular actor does something that maybe no other actor can do. Do you sort of nudge your husband and say, I made that decision? You know, I pushed for that person. Do you get that sort of transactional sense of um sort of pride in your work, like so watching the shows?

SPEAKER_04 33:11

A hundred percent. Um, absolutely. Um and you know, he's he certainly hears a decent amount as we're going through the process. Um and you know, gut blessing. He still tries to make a point of watching the shows that that I have a hand in. Um I will I'm I'm gonna give one name and one name only. Um, and I I love when it happened. Um on Mr. Robot, um we were, I believe it, I can't remember if it was the pilot or if we were already in episodes, but there was there was a recurring role that that we were looking for. And um it was one of the one of the sort of crew people, tech people, um, who were all a little bit off-center. And and there was one role specifically, and um they had sent us a choice, and and and I was watching the choice with an associate of mine, and and I said, it doesn't really, it doesn't seem right to me. And Mr. Robot shot in New York. I I will always, no matter how long I live in Los Angeles, I will always consider myself a New Yorker. Um there's a New York actor who lived most of his life making a living in off-Broadway theater. And I I turned to my associate and I said, tell them to get Ron Cepis Jones. And um he came in like the next day, two days later, read for the role, he got the role. And I myself, not even on Mr. Robot, but I can see the line from Mr. Robot, which led to him getting a role on another NBC series, his first series regular role when he was easily in his 50s, um, on This Is Us, went on to win two Emmy Awards for This Is Us, and had such a nice career with other Emmy nominations and so much public acclaim so late in his life. And and uh he he passed away at far too young an age. I think he was maybe 62 or 64 or something, um, maybe within the last six or eight months or so. Um, but I so loved that he had that opportunity late in his life or at any point in his life to I think so much of what I do is giving people the opportunity to do what they love to do. And I love that he had that opportunity after so many years of working for next to no money in off-Broadway theater and dealing with, I think, some very difficult times in his life earlier. Um, and just that he had the opportunity to you know show off a bit at the end.

SPEAKER_00 36:29

That's a lovely story. And I'm you know, going back from your first answer, it's about making dreams, not crushing them. I think that's a great example of it. Because you actually what when I asked you earlier about, I think you mentioned you like sometimes you bump into people who say, You didn't cast me in this. Presumably you get the opposite, where people say they bump into you at a Hollywood party and say, Thank you for the opportunity. With that particular actor, did he no idea?

SPEAKER_04 36:59

No idea. No idea. No idea. Well, um, and I'm also glad he had no idea.

SPEAKER_03 37:09

We, you know, this is so, I mean, you're the first casting director, casting person in casting we've had on this uh uh show. So we we hit a crossroads, I think, the industry this last year when uh the writers went on strike for our existential issues, uh, and then the actors went on strike for their existential issues that weren't necessarily the same as ours, but there were some overlaps. You know, this is a you know, I asked this sort of variation of question this question every now and then of like what keeps you up at night about your industry and this career, but in particular, about actors themselves who, if you look at the numbers, something like 80% of working actors in SAG don't even make enough to get health and you know, the health intention. So they're bare they're barely making it. Are you, you know, and as we hit this, what they're calling the great contraction, you know, do you feel like more careers are going to be crushed? Do you feel like there's still opportunities? Like, how are you how are you feeling with the next five years of Hollywood on the acting casting side?

SPEAKER_04 38:15

You know, I've been doing this for such a long time. And the great expansion, the great contraction, more expansion, more contraction, strikes, um, global pandemics. Um there's always going to be advances, there's always going to be setbacks. And again, I I always hope there are more jobs because I want everyone to make a living doing what they want to do to make that living. Um and you know, I'm I'm glad to be able to give people the jobs that I can give them. Um and I just always hope for more. Um, I certainly expect, yeah, we're in a course correction right now, but the pendulum is going to come back and and we'll certainly have look, I think we know it's a never-ending process. And the networks, the platforms, movie theaters, there's it's a huge business, and everybody needs product. Yeah. And it can't be all unscripted.

SPEAKER_03 39:32

Absolutely. Yeah. Uh knock on wood about that. Uh, or your mouth to God's ear, as they say. Now, this next question I hate to ask for reasons that'll be made clear in a second. Oh, god, I'm curious because you're the right person to ask the question to. I can't remember where I read it, but I just read this article about why a lot of British actors are being cast as American in a big blockbuster American. Tom Holland's a good example of Spider-Man. And the the answer, this, this, this thesis this writer was giving, and again, I just it was interesting to think about. I don't know if I agree with it or not, was that in in England, in the UK, the act, the arts of acting go way back, you know, obviously Shakespeare and beyond, and they take it very seriously as a craft and as a career. That in the US, social media has changed the game a little bit. So the people that were looking at for some of the roles have come up in different ways, and that they maybe haven't uh practiced the craft enough. Maybe they're not as, you know, they don't, but again, I know from like Broadway and all the schools we have, we definitely have people who take it very seriously. How do you think social media has changed the game in regards to casting? And has it been for the better?

SPEAKER_04 40:48

Is it are we getting people that are going for the clicks like and now we have to become this might sound harsh, and I don't mean it to sound harsh, I mean it to sound hopeful. Um I always think that people who are meant to be famous become famous. And I don't watch a lot of reality TV because I like to see people working a craft. And you know, I'm also not one of those people who, you know, I don't want to, I want to sit around and talk about how did you come up with this? What was what was your thought process? You know, I like people to do their thing. I I, you know, except for these 30 or 40 minutes, I don't even necessarily love talking about how I make the decisions I make. Um, but you know, I like to see people act, and sometimes it's a natural gift. And because I don't know if they would take it as a compliment, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna name any names. But, you know, I I think it's safe to say I know any number of people who, some of whom are some of my favorite people to watch on a TV show or a movie, who are not necessarily trained, certainly not classically trained. But then there are plenty of other people, also, many of my favorites, who went to the Yale School of Drama, went to NYU, went to uh Rada, went to Guild Hall. Um, so you never know how it's you never know how it's gonna work. I mean, specific to what you say about Tom Holland, you know, he's somebody who started doing it when I think he was like nine or ten years old and you know, was a was a boy dancer who got cast in a West End, you know, in Billy Elliott on stage. And you know, that that sort of commitment to be able to do that, um, that's a certain skill set. And he's learned how to transfer that into all this other stuff that he's done. Um, you know, I think you just never know where it's gonna come from. In terms of social media, um, you know, it does sort of make me crazy when when people ask questions like, you know, well, how many followers do they have? You know, or are we gonna, and you know, I can see where some of it works, but I can also point to a lot of other situations where it doesn't work and and it's completely meaningless. And and I think people are you know just trying to make it easier in one sense to you know rectify a choice that they've made in their own head. Um and yeah, I just I you know I'm guy who always likes to go with the best performance.

SPEAKER_00 44:03

Very good. Um I think to be honest, Noah, although I'm not in the industry, I think the simplest answer to your question is British people are just very good at a lot.

SPEAKER_03 44:15

That's why I was scared to ask the question, Stephen.

SPEAKER_00 44:19

So um Stephen, um unfortunately we're we're at the the wrong end of the podcast. So we've only got one question left. God, it's been a pleasure and so quick.

SPEAKER_04 44:30

So the the question we we ask every guest is if you could give a single piece of advice to somebody wanting to enter the industry in this case the casting world what would that single piece of advice be um say yes say yes um enthusiastically say yes say yes to um writer friends director friends other actor friends who are putting together a reading in their living room um going to a performance somewhere just if you want to be an actor act and you never know what anything is going to lead to um and as I said I am still every day so enthusiastic about the job I do and I love enthusiasm in a person I love enthusiasm in a performance and I still I love talking to guys like you because we do the same things and I can learn things from from both of you and you know so just say yes people are so careful about oh is this a good move for me is this the right career move like just do it do something say yes brilliant excellent Stephen O'Neill uh who's ended up being very nice and exactly the sort of person you want in casting actually thinking about the upside and how you can change people's career rather than the side I was trying to to bring out so thank you very much indeed for coming on the show.

SPEAKER_00 46:21

I'll be sending you my tape tomorrow well you're British so you're bound to get the role yeah that's that's very true I really do like you excellent I want I want to make a comment on the type of role he'd be perfect for but I probably not podcast appropriate so we'll just you can call me after brilliant thank you very much Stephen really enjoyed this thank you I loved it thank you guys thank you for listening to this episode of Screaming into the Hollywood Abyss brought to you by Scriptation Thank you as ever to James Launch for the music and thank you to our loyal listeners and if there's any showrunners out there who want to hear their fellow showrunners abused uh and ruffled around and put under the microscope so you can hear their stories of rejection failure and adversity please send them our way if you're interested in following us on social media no I've lost track I am at an Ebslin on Twitter or X or whatever Elon Musk now calls it and thanks to Elon Musk I'm also at Noah Ebslin on Hive Scoutable Blue Sky Threads Mastagon MySpace French True and I'm sure of those