Take 77 - Writer and Showrunner Amy Berg, Warrior Nun, Counterpart

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for sure, dozens of unproduced scripts littering the floor.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

For every success, there is sometimes even years. Failure. This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

That's the default thing we have to be able to persevere. Like everything in our business, you're gonna have to count.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

That box is taking it because that doesn't happen overnight. I was being told by my manager it's yours to lose. And I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking, like, well, that's it for me. I blew my one big shot. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Screaming into the Hollywood Abyss is brought to you by Scriptation, the Emmy Emmy on the It sounds awful when you say it.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Let somebody with a more charming accent do this bit. Screaming into the Hollywood Abyss is brought to you by Scriptation, the Emmy Award-winning app for anyone that reads scripts. Makes notes, organise them into layers, and save hours of time by automatically transferring those notes into new script revisions. Sither listeners can get a free month of Scriptation by going to scriptation.com backslash scyther. Now that's how you do it, Noah. Welcome back to Screaming to the Hollywood Abyss, the second episode in the second half of the second season. It was wonderful to be back last week. I hope you guys enjoyed listening to the episode as much as we did recording it again. This is our favorite hobby. Um Noah, you enjoyed you enjoyed letting people hear your voice, didn't you?

SPEAKER_01 2:01

I definitely enjoyed coming back and getting back into the rhythm of interviewing people and and talking about failure, rejection, adversity. Uh and you know, and to be honest, I'm, you know, I loved I loved our last episode. I thought we had two really good guests that could, you know, this only the second time we've interviewed two people at the same time. So we had to figure out a whole new way of kind of rhythm of talking and figuring it out. But those two are great. I thought we really dug into the weeds of um some, you know, some of the struggles with their journey and they were candid and open. And I forget just how oddly inspirational failure can be. Uh, because obviously we took a bit of hiatus. So that after that interview, I felt jazzed up, even though these two guys were talking about uh, you know, how bad parts of their career went. And I hope that feeling translated to some of our listeners. I think it did. We got a lot of great comments on social media, and you know, obviously it wasn't an accidental, we went a little bit longer than we thought we were going to, but we're back and we're gonna try to give you 25 episodes in a row.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Yeah, I mean look, my main takeaway is you know, you look at the partnership, the way they support each other through success and through failure, just the relationship they had with each other. I wish I could find somebody to co-host a podcast with who I could have that sort of relationship with. You know, the whatever the to TJ and Rashid sort of model is, I just think if I could find someone like that to work with on a podcast, I think it would be an amazing, an amazing thing, both in terms of the quality of the podcast and just sort of general happiness. But you know, they've obviously they've got each other's backs in the way that I just, you know, we don't. And you know, good luck to them, and they're very successful as a result.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

I I I did tell my wife after that interview that it must be nice to work with work work you know so closely with somebody you like. Uh obviously, I like the people that I work with on my day job, which is you know working as a TV writer, but same thing. Like one day you and I, Dan, we're gonna find the perfect match for each other. We haven't yet, but we're gonna get there, and uh and and that might be magical. Uh, but segueing to to this uh interview that's coming up, Dan, you know how hard I worked to get this interview.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

Yeah, I can't remember how long ago it was. It was some point early in season one. You're like, he was like, There's this woman, she's amazing. I know her really well, like she's a mentor of mine. She's promised me she'll come on. But like a lot of things that come out of your mouth, Noah, um, you know, I wasn't sure if I should believe you. Um, in fact, you told me so often that she was going to come on that I actually nearly fell asleep, um, in the way that some people do when you're pitching to them. But you, to be fair to you, as sometimes you do, you actually delivered on this, and she came on, and all of the hype that you gave her um was more than justified. It was an extraordinary interview, and obviously I get to edit these, so I listen to them back first. And it has been a few weeks since we recorded it, and I'd forgotten what a great interview it was. And you know, she tells great stories about you know the failure, and we have a lot of fun with her, but there was one part I'd completely forgotten about, the brutal part where she was actually made physically ill by uh by her one of the people she was working with, someone who I think has since been cancelled. Um, and the way she talked about that and how she dealt with it and what she'd learned from it was genuinely inspirational.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

And I do want to say for the record that Dan uses the word mentor here very loosely. In fact, this was uh the first time I've met uh this person in person uh was in this podcast. And this is somebody that I more admired than actually mentored me. I wish, you know, in many senses, as a young writer, I had her as a mentor. This is a person that has sort of through social media and online and in and in real life as well, has mentored many, many people. And I think she's become sort of one of the leaders of our guild and our and our group of writers. And she's definitely a voice of reason, uh, especially during you know times of strife, like the ATF, uh the the battle with the agents, the battle with the uh studio that comes up every three years. Uh and I'm it probably took six months or longer, maybe a year, to get her to fully commit to come on this podcast. That we got almost like I got almost yeses, near yeses, and I didn't want to be that annoying person that just kept on bugging her, but I really wanted her to come on, and I thought with just a little bit of nudging, uh, she would agree. And in fact, she did agree multiple times, and our schedule finally worked out. And lo and behold, we got Amy Berg to come on to this podcast, and I'm really excited for you guys to hear this every day.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. I am, as ever, your very polite British non-entertainment co-host, Dan Rutstein.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

And I'm your even more polite industry co-host, Noah Epson. On today's podcast, I'm thrilled to have on longtime TV writer and producer Amy Berg. Amy has written on such shows as Boomtown, North Shore, Leverage, Person of Interest, Eureka, and Warrior Nun. She also ran the last season of Da Vinci's Demons and the first season of Counterpart, as well as creating and producing the TV series Caper. Welcome, Amy.

SPEAKER_03 7:37

Hi, nice to see you guys.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

So thank you very much for joining us. I'm actually gonna start. This is possibly an unfair question, but that's fine. Um, so if you Google Amy Berg, there's more than one Amy Berg. So obviously the other Amy Berg does different things, but does that ever cause you any bother and does it upset you that you're it's I think she's one above you on Google searches?

SPEAKER_03 8:04

Um that part doesn't upset me. What does upset me is that she's supposed to use her middle initial and she doesn't. So it's really hard for us to separate our um not only our um you know our track records um on you know the various platforms, IMDB or Studio System or whatever. Um I get you know told all of the things that I'm directing that I've never heard of all the time. Um, but also like it's hard to separate for the writer's skill because she writes her documentaries and gets the uh WGA credit for it. Um there have been times where checks that are meant for her have uh gone to me because my name is Amy Berg without an and ask or without an initial. Um and and so you know, there's been there's been a little confusion all over the map with that one.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Isn't the rule that if if she doesn't put the initial in, that's her fault, and therefore you can cash those checks, or is that not how it works?

SPEAKER_03 9:06

No, no, unfortunately. I've I've never cashed the check. My uh I all my checks go to my business manager, he's pretty good at that. Uh he gets paid to be really good at that. So uh I I tend to update him on the projects I'm working on, and I have to do I have to pay special attention to doing that just because of this confusion that we have going on.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

It's obviously it's a tough enough industry at the best of times when you're having to compete with someone with literally your your name around this stuff. It's probably uh an unnecessary distraction in this world. But let's talk and not let's not talk about the other Amy Berg anymore. Let's talk about you because you've had a very successful career, which is fine, but we don't care about that on this podcast. What we care about is tell us about when it wasn't going well. And actually, I think let's start with a tell us about a time you nearly gave up.

SPEAKER_03 9:56

Uh yes, there's been uh there's been a few, but there's one big one, and that is when I was trying to make the switch from running half-hour Nickelodeon kids shows to one-hour um premium television, and no one wanted to hear anything about uh or read anything that I had um because you know no one really gives a crap, unfortunately, um, about the stuff that you did uh, you know, before. Everyone cares about what you're doing now. And so I had to uh I started out my career basically writing for two shows for Nickelodeon. I got lucky really fast. Um and then suddenly when those shows ended, uh and I didn't have any credits aside from kids' shows, it was it was a it was a tough uh tough go. I basically started over from scratch. Um I threw out my resume, um, so basically lied on my resume going forward, had to get assistant jobs, and um you know, told everybody that I was an assistant and rather than uh a writer on shows, and uh and and submitted resumes for all of these um um various assistant positions to try to build myself up again because I needed time to make money while I was building up my specs. Uh and and uh so I ended up um as an assistant at the Gersh agency because I figured if I was gonna learn the business, which I didn't really know anything outside of this Nickelodeon building that I worked in for my first three years, I uh I I that was probably a good place to start. So I I was on a desk uh at the Gersh Agency for a year um working on my specs, and then I got another writer's assistance gig um uh on a show called That Was Then on ABC. And by then I had uh enough specs to start sending around. And uh it uh it took a friend of mine's um connections and and my material combined to staff together on a show called North Shore on Fox. So we had like this uh uh business arrangement um to uh to work together uh for our first uh staff experience. And uh and you know that was my first one hour. It was uh North Shore on Fox.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

I want I'm gonna circle back to untangling that relationship because obviously you're a solo writer now, and so you moved on again. But was that we don't talk a lot about the fact that often your first job doesn't lead to your second job, often your first job leads to nothing, and you have to repackage yourself again. I'm really glad that you're bringing this up. So, you know, you you were sort of young in the industry at that time. Were you feeling kind of bulletproof? And you're like, I'm gonna, this is not the ladder I want to climb. I want to climb a different ladder, I'm gonna go backwards and start again, or was it a scary combination of both? And when did you realize that it was, you know, maybe gonna work out this new direction for you?

SPEAKER_03 13:13

Yeah, I was uh it was scary as hell because I I honestly did not know anyone in town. Um everyone I knew who worked on these Nickelodeon shows were we were employed in a building, Nickelodeon on Sunset, and all we knew was each other. Um it was like very insular on those shows. And so when it came to sort of like, you know, branching out, I was like literally, I was stepping into Los Angeles for the first time again. Um and uh I, you know, I was still sort of a little unsure of where I was gonna end up, um, whether I was gonna be writing or whether I was going to be producing, um, which are two completely different tracks. But um, you know, I I loved my experience at Nickelodeon. Uh, I got to write some really fun episodes of TV. And so I wanted to continue down that road, but it it took it just took a really long time. Um, I think I was, you know, I was writing for three years and then I was unemployed uh as a writer for three years um while I was working as an assistant uh on these other shows.

SPEAKER_01 14:24

I I want to get in your mindset a little bit because something's kind of fascinating to me. I think a lot of people come to Hollywood with the idea that they can control their own future in this town, and it's really hard to do. It sounds like there's at least two or three times now in the story we're hearing where you could have gone in a direction that you had to actually change course yourself. You had to like go against whatever stream was taking you one way and go the other way. The first time, obviously, was writing for children's shows. The next time you're on the assistant track or assistant desk or Gersh, you're doing that thing. Now you're on North Shore working as a writer. You have your job, but I'm guessing, now I don't know what happened to that relationship. I'm guessing that was a paper team with your part, your writing partner, and you wanted eventually to go on your own. How did you separate that and begin to reinvent yourself yet again to be the solo writer that everyone knows uh you today as?

SPEAKER_03 15:16

Yeah, I mean, you know, that was tough because, you know, your first job and everyone knows you as a team. Like, how do you how do you break up? Um, and how do you move on to um, you know, doing your own things? Um, and we were at sort of different stages in our career because I've already, I'd already done a lot of writing and he was um pretty fresh out of school and had less experience. Um, so it was like, you know, it was a really difficult conversation um between the two of us. And eventually it came down to him uh taking me to lunch and saying, I feel like I'm taking half your money. And it was the most noble, um, courageous, uh, crazy thing that he could have done. Um, and he basically released me. I was kind of holding on to him, and he basically said, Go fly, little bird, uh, which is extraordinary. Um, and I'm still thankful for him for that. Um, so I uh he's and he's by the way, still a writer and doing really, really well. It just took him a couple more years to get his you know career up and running after we broke up than it took me, because I was a little ahead um with on the experience track.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

In a in a world where most people in your industry seem to not be very nice to each other, that does seem like a remarkably noble gesture.

SPEAKER_03 16:39

Yeah. Uh it was, yeah, it was pretty great. And and the reason that we, part of the reason we were together is I was having some severe health issues. Uh, I had uh a heart arrhythmia as a result of uh a very stressful um relationship with a boss uh uh back in the day. And um, and so I developed this arrhythmia and I finally got it corrected um through surgery. And that was at the same point that you know my partner and I were having this discussion about breaking up because I also felt like now I have my life back, I don't need um, you know, and he saw himself, I think, a little bit as a crutch for me. Um, and that's why he did that. Because once I got my health back and and I felt like I could be in a room um without worrying about anything, um, it was really uh a great conversation um to split up.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

So I'm gonna tread slightly carefully here, obviously. Um but I can't not ask you about that relationship with your boss and the problems that it caused. So obviously I've I've no idea, you know, what what's subject to NDAs and how you feel about these things. So we'll do it in the more generic way, which I guess is what sorts of things were happening, and now that you're a showrunner, how do you do things differently so that no one who works for you ever ends up in that position?

SPEAKER_03 18:13

Yeah, I mean it was um it was a sort of verbal, verbally abusive relationship and a very uh, you know, lots of condensation, lots of like just talking down, um and you know, asking questions that are meant to like undermine your confidence. Like he would walk by and say, like, hey, um I'm just curious, uh, what's your IQ? As a way of just sort of like making you feel like shit. And I you know, I I probably could say his name because he's in he's been in the press um since the time we worked together and he is now no longer um employed uh as as a as a showrunner. But um but yeah, I mean it was it was a rough time. Like I I you know I struggled and and you know, and then I might develop health issues because that's what happens when you're beaten down um emotionally and psychologically. Sometimes it results in a sort of physical sign as well. Um and so, you know, that was that was a something I've I've I I've grown from and I've learned from. And certainly I it it informs basically every relationship I've had going forward in this industry, either on the side of being cautious with people when I first meet them, to know, you know, is this someone who's going to stab me in the in the back eventually? Or yeah, also in how I treat people. Um, because I never want to be um the example that was set for me.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

So obviously, thank you for your candor. Uh, I know obviously this is not easy to talk about. That doesn't mean I'm not going to ask one more question because sure you did come on this podcast knowing what it was. Um I guess and maybe this makes it easier. I mean, actually, it does make this a lot easier. I'm not asking to name him, but it's a lot easier because this person is no longer working, because obviously we know of stories like this from other guests where the person is still working. Um so this is better for everyone that's not. I guess, in terms of colleagues, either at the time or subsequently when he stopped working, were other writers who were at your level at the same time, were they supportive and helpful, or did people sort of stay away because they didn't want to get caught up in it as well?

SPEAKER_03 20:42

Everyone has stayed silent. It's been like a very strange, we all knew what was gonna happen one day, and then um it finally did, and it was just like it was it was a weird collective shrug, which I I you know, I I would have assumed that there would have been a lot of like you know, Discord or uh Slack uh groups that formed out of this, and maybe there was, and I just wasn't a part of them, but um and I was an assistant at the time that this happened to me, so it wasn't uh I wasn't a writer yet, but I'm sure um there are lots of threads that are that have been going on since uh he was added a couple years ago.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

Wow. Uh thank you for sharing all of that. I'm getting some flashbacks as well from some things I'm in history, but uh you know it's something that we're dealing with before we move on from this subject. I just want to, you know, is this behavior, you know, I see you as kind of at this point a leader in the guild. You you're often weighing in on heavy subjects and you've seen a lot. Uh so my next couple of questions are gonna come from that position. But do you think this toxic behavior is more prevalent? And is there something about our business that attracts these types of people? And do you think it's getting better uh now that some of these people are getting outed? Or is it just are they just hiding it better?

SPEAKER_03 22:00

I I I mean I do think this is a business that attracts ego. Um and and honestly, if you don't have ego, you can't survive in it. Like you have to learn to build it if you don't have it coming in. Um but it it is sort of frustrating to not just experience it, but to watch it go on and and to be able to, now that I'm at a position where I could say something and people would listen, um, which I wasn't at the time this was happening to me. It I I I you know I want to help um everyone who's experiencing this. And you know, I've I've I've helped a uh reporters uh connect them with with people um who are currently experiencing something and then they are exposed. So I've I've sort of had my fingers in the in a lot of pies where where that's concerned to make sure people are protected. And it's it's it's become a big deal to me because I didn't have that. Uh I didn't have any kind of protection. And um if I can be that for someone else, then I'm absolutely going to do that.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

We we we actually had uh one of those journalists on a while back. We had Orion come on and talk about some of her experiences. I know who will be journalists involved with some of this, and you know, we kind of joking, not jokingly, sort of sadly said how she has become the HR department for our industry, which is not maybe the greatest reflection on our industry. But I do want to ask you another uh pivot away from that for a second and ask you another question. You know, the fans of this podcast will know that we've gone on a brief hiatus, Dan and I, I moved and whatever. So we there's there was a gap between episodes. And in that gap, a couple of notable things happened that we haven't been able to talk about with our guests. One of those things is right around the time uh we were going on hiatus, uh, Netflix stock crashed. Another thing is now the HBO Max Discovery merger, which is taking away all the scripted TV from our industry. And I saw a thread just yesterday where some up-and-coming writers were like, I'm trying to join the industry when it feels like it's falling apart. And another high-level writer, uh, uh, I won't say them by name, said, you know, I've been through three different industry collapses at this point. It's cyclical, it's gonna come back, just stay the course. You know, as someone who is sort of, you know, for to me, sort of a mentor in this industry and someone I look up to, you know, what do you think about the status of the industry? Where are we? And is it so scary as people make it out to be?

SPEAKER_03 24:34

Uh I mean, it if I was coming up now, I think I would be scared. Um what's happening is it's not falling apart, it's just contracting. And it's it's like it's like you know, the US economy. Like sometimes there's a wild expansion, and then other times there's horrific contraction. Um, and that's what the industry is, what's happening with the industry right now. Um, there was an explosion of of you know of new shows, of uh streaming platforms coming to life and just you know consuming content like there's no tomorrow. Uh and at some point, you know, the dam was gonna break. At some point that was that wasn't sustainable. And there was a lot of, there was always a lot of talk about Netflix, about you know, there being a sort of end game. Uh we I don't think anybody thought it was gonna happen this quickly, but it did seem like you can only go so long operating in the red, buying so much and um paying crazy amount of money for overall deals for talent, and it not come back at some point to bite you, especially when you're losing content left and right to other streaming platforms that are that are you know coming to life. Um, you know, Disney Plus, I think, officially just passed Netflix in subscribers, which you know, five years ago you wouldn't have, you know, Disney Plus was just like a little blurp on the radar, but uh who would have thought Netflix would ever be surpassed in subscribers because of their global reach? Um but Disney Plus has not done that. So it's it's we're just unfortunately in a time of contraction. Um and there are a ton of people that are just still trying to get a foothold in the business. And whether that means uh, you know, you're trying to get your first staff job or you're trying to be an assistant on a show, uh things are just getting canceled. And and you know, shows are being uh shows that are in the pipeline are are just sort of going away. Uh it's it's all coming down to you know monetary um you know decision making. Like it feels like you know, if if it's not financially feasible, it's it's not something that we need to have anymore. Um we experienced that with uh Eureka. Uh we were greenlit for a season six, and then uh Comcast bought NBC Universal and they looked at the bottom line, and even though we were their flagship show, uh it didn't make sense financially to give us a season six. So they withdrew it. Um so it, I mean, it happens, like this is the thing that happens, and it's you know, same with all this like equity companies and um you know buying the agencies. It's it's it's just we are now sort of being taken over by the bottom line when before it was, you know, not always, but a good amount of the time it felt like we were being led creatively. Like it, if it was something that was good, it would find an outlet and and be made. But it's sort of feeling like maybe that's not the priority anymore.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

So is the not making the season six thing because by the time you get there, everyone's costs are so high that it's cheaper to start. Okay. So what does that mean knowing that for you? So you've worked on shows that have gone a few seasons, you've worked on shows that have gone one season, you've got worked on shows that have gone two seasons. Do you now just work on when I say you I mean sort of all of the people now working? Do you work on the assumption that you want to make something that's gonna be really good for a season? And you even if you know it's popular, it could just stop at a season because that's just the economics of it all. So let's just make it a really good season and not worry about some clever cliffhangers for the season two that will never be made? Or do you still think I want to make a show that's gonna go for 15 seasons if I can?

SPEAKER_03 28:56

Uh, you know, I wanna I wanna make a show that goes the exact amount of seasons this the story demands. And whether that's a season or whether that's that's a limited series, or whether that's you know, 10 seasons, uh broadcast show, um, you know, whatever whatever is you know the best fit. But it's you know, it doesn't feel like that's what how decisions are being made. It feels like right now decisions are being made on um what what kind of output can we get for the the lowest costs? Uh and you know, and Netflix has been uh carping down their seasons for years. Like now it feels like you're two and done with with Netflix, where it was before it was, you know, if it's successful, it's successful and you you go on forever. And now we've seen shows that are doing really well and better than other shows that get you know uh greenlit for another season go away. Uh so it's it's really it's becoming increasingly impossible to predict. And it used to be so reliable, you know, it was a machine. Development was a machine, staffing was a machine, everyone knew all of the parts of the machine and how it worked. Um, but now you know it feels like that machine is broken down and it and it's just a free-for-all. Um and people are, you know, and and you know, Warner Brothers Discovery, they're trying to figure out who the hell they are. Uh, and so you know, if HBO Max goes away, um, if it combines with Discovery Plus in some weird way, like we don't know um what that monster is gonna end up looking like. Um you know, it's weird because I am someone who has a deal at Warner Brothers. I have a you know, I have a deal at Warner Brothers, I have a deal at um at Paramount, I have a deal at um uh Lionsgate, but I'm assuming that my deal with Warner Brothers is just gonna go away. So I haven't been counting on anything where that's concerned, uh, and operating under the the you know the idea that I don't even have a deal there anymore.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

So you have worked across a wide variety of different types of shows in a way that's I think probably slightly atypical. So what did if you can choose what to do next, if you and I I know the world's complicated and a lot of these decisions in your world are never actually made by you, but if you could, if you had the power to decide what type of show you would make and where it would land and how many seasons it would go for, what what would the you don't have to give us the name of the show, but give us the you know the type of show, the ideal platform and the ideal length for what you, Amy Bird, wants to do next, if you could choose in a perfect world.

SPEAKER_03 31:58

I I want to do the thing that's gonna challenge me the most. Um and right now for me, that's a I I sold an original pilot uh on spec to Paramount. Um and it was a story that I would never have pitched and made it, uh, because it's it's relatively small. Um it's personal and it's hard to define by it's this meets this. You know, it's it's it's one of those things. So I mean for me, like it's always the challenge has always been what's the thing I haven't done? Um, you know, I I started off writing Half Hours for Kids. I went to writing uh Primetime Soaps, then I got into writing uh, you know, really hard sci-fi. Um I've come back around spy shows and and con man shows and like you know, I've I've run the gambit. Um and this is this this is like the smallest show I've come up with. Um it's it's very you know driven by character. Um and that's the kind of thing I want to be writing. Um, you know, you get sort of known for certain things because of what you've done before. And you get put into a box, even by your own reps, um, that this is the thing you should be doing. Um, and you know, for me, when I started in, you know, on my first genre show, it was immediately like, oh, she's now genre girl. Um and and then, you know, it just forever was being put up for those shows by my own agents, uh, being read by shows because that's what I was. Um, and you have to write something original to break out of that. So I I wrote a spec that um was completely the opposite of a genre show. It was kind of a more of a like procedural, um, you know, uh straight-ahead drama. And I forced my reps to have to send that out. And that means that you know, they couldn't just send it to genre shows, they had to send it, you know, to other places too, because it wasn't even right for genre shows. Um, so you know, you have to write yourself out of the box, like you can't just wish it away. Um, and so I've had to do that a couple times.

SPEAKER_01 34:25

Amazingly tricky business. I I have a question about circling back a little bit, but also looking forward about finding your voice. And I'm not talking about finding your voice um as a writer, which is things we have talked about in the past. I'm talking about you said or you implied earlier in your career you were voiceless. And now I would say you are probably anything but voiceless at this point in your career. How do you grow into your voice? What is that a process of finding your power, of finding yourself? I'm curious about how you grow into that role.

SPEAKER_03 34:58

I think it's a process of living. Um, you know, I think, I think as you age, um, you know, it's not just wisdom, it's it's what you learn, it's your experience, it's your relationships, um, it's how you evolve as a person. Um, and all of those things help define what your voice becomes. Uh, it feels like it's it's hard to sort of say I want to write this, so my voice is going to be that. Um, it's more I am feeling this way. I've made these relationships, I've had these experiences. Um, this is who I am now. And you know, that can change from year to year. Uh, you know, I feel like I'm still evolving. And so I don't know what my voice is going to be at the end of the day. But, you know, for now, um it's it's it's who I am right now.

SPEAKER_01 35:59

Thank you for that. Uh unfortunately, we're getting to the time of the podcast where we have to ask the question that we ask uh, you know, everybody who comes on here, and that is if you could give one single piece of advice to somebody joining our business, in this case as a screenwriter or TV writer, what would that be?

SPEAKER_03 36:17

I would say find your people. Um, you know, there it's a really hard business. You're going to be confronted by lots of failure and lots of people that wish you, you know, ill. Um and and so you need to find a group of people that you can rely on, you can trust, you can, you know, to be help be your backbone when you can't be that for yourself. And it's more than just who you were just on a staff with, because oftentimes those relationships don't last. It's it's sort of the the relationships that you you build outside of a writer's room that tend to be the ones that you know are your people. But it's important to have that that sort of support system.

SPEAKER_00 37:11

Good. That's a great answer. So look, Amy Berg, not to be confused with Amy J. Berg, thank you very much indeed for being part of uh our podcast and your uh tremendous candor and honesty with your answers. Um, I know Noah has been banging on for ages about trying to get you on the podcast because you're a mentor of his. And despite that obvious failing that he hasn't done better, you've done incredibly well. So thank you very much indeed.

SPEAKER_03 37:40

Awesome. Thank you guys, I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

Thank you. Well, that's a wrap on this episode of Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss. As always, it's this episode was brought to you by Scriptation, the screen writing and annotation software that at the very least has made my life easier and will make your life easier as well. Uh, we'd like to thank our wives who put up with us recording these episodes in our offices and basements and closets and bathrooms and anywhere we can get a little space to record an interview. And of course, we want to thank James Launch who provided us with great intro and outro music.

SPEAKER_00 38:20

Uh, if you want to find us on social media, you can find Noah at NEVslin on Twitter, tweeting a variety of writer-based nonsense and uh some terrible puns and occasionally begging for sponsorship. Uh, if you want more refined tweets, mostly about football and whiskey, you can find me at Dan Rutstein. If you're interested in buying a copy of Scriptation, if you go to www.scriptation.com backslash sither, S-I-T-H-A, you will receive a special discount. Thank you very much for listening. As always, we appreciate you. Uh please give us any feedback, mostly positive stuff about me, and we will see you next week.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

And if you do say a negative thing about Dan, there is a chance I might buy you a free copy of Scriptation.