Take 37 - Manager and producer Zadoc Angell, Echo Lake Entertainment

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for shore, dozens of unproduced scripts littering for all of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

For every six days, there is movies, there's even years of failure. This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

That's the thing to be able to persevere. Like everything in our business here, and I was being told by my manager it's yours to lose.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

And I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking like, well, that's it for me. I blew my one big shot. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. As ever, I am your co-host, not from the entertainment world, Dan Rutstein, and we have from the entertainment world, Noah Evslin.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

Hey Dan, it's good to see you not recording from your closet uh today. Uh I'm very excited because on today's podcast, we have literary manager Zadok Angel. Zadok started his career as an agent at Paradigm before segueing over to the managing side of the business, where he worked his way up the food chain to becoming co-president of Equolake Entertainment. Also, probably most notably of all, or maybe the least notably, he's also one of my longtime managers. Welcome, Zadok.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Hi, thanks for having me, guys. This is fun. So I guess the place we have to start is we have a podcast about rejection and failure. Nine percent of our guests are people who you are the manager for. So what does that say about your management skills?

SPEAKER_03 1:56

I uh I build successful careers. I think that's what that says. But I I think you know, to your point, there's so much rejection, you know, and I think you really have to persevere and stick with it and follow your, you know, your passions and you know, and then as a representative, help your client, you know, sort of stay the course despite the the highs and lows that one goes through, because there's a lot of you know rejection and disappointment in Hollywood, and you have to, you know, keep that faith in yourself and keep persevering and moving forward to achieve your goals, you know. And I think sometimes it's um it's so painful the rejection when you're the artist. And I think sometimes they don't realize how much we as the rep, because we represent you know many artists, right? We get a lot of we got like 10 times the rejection because we're often the ones getting the the passes and the no's and then you know relaying that to the client. So, you know, oddly, we we get told, you know, no all day long, you know. And so on some level, you get um you know used to it. It's not it's personal, right? Because they're not literally rejecting like my writing or my pitch. But um, but it sucks because you, you know, use the representative, believe in this person, believe in this project, and you're upset when you get told no. And so it uh, you know, I think as a representative, you you really have to be prepared for rejection because it's just the nature of the of the business, which you know makes the wins when they come so much sweeter.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

Yeah, absolutely. That's fascinating. So I guess what what would be interesting is yeah, you see a lot of no's and you pass along a lot of no's. So we would obviously never expect you to name any names here, but when you uh are the gatekeeper of a rejection, are there certain clients you feel differently about making that phone call? So some you're gonna call up and they say no, and you know that maybe someone like Noah who's used to rejections, he'll be sort of fine with it. And there's others who every time start, you know, throwing things around the room and swearing. So, you know, do you have, you know, and you're a little, I don't know if you make notes on these things, but you know which of your clients take these things better, and maybe you phrase things and personalize and tailor the messages differently to different ones?

SPEAKER_03 4:11

Yeah, I think uh that's a really great question. It um look, every client's different, and some people are naturally gonna take it more personally than others. There's an interesting moment, right, between when you get the pass and when you deliver that to the client, you know, that this interim period. And when I entered the business now, what, 18 years ago, there were all sorts of rules about this. Like the agents at Paradigm would say, never give bad news on a Friday. You know, so if you got that rejection, you were not gonna tell the client on a Friday. Well, that's changed because we live in a virtual world where people are so accessible. And so I can't adhere to that rule anymore. If I get the pass on Friday, nine times out of 10, I'm delivering that news to the client because you don't know if the producer that's involved with that project or the director or maybe the executive who's passing has a personal relationship with the writer. Like, what if they email? What if they text over the weekend? What if the information somehow gets out and you are withholding it from your client because you didn't want to ruin their weekend? You know, like I have to think about that now. And so my my rule of thumb is to really just be honest and tell the person about the, you know, the feedback and the, you know, that it's a no. I will say, you know, the business used to be all over the phone. And so you used to just deliver bad news on the phone a lot. It so much is transitioned to email. And I do think rejection is easier to get over email. You know, you you can read it, you can process it, you're not reacting emotionally sort of in front of somebody, even if it's, you know, by phone. And so that I think has been a little bit of a buffer for the artist to sort of absorb it in a private moment rather than um, you know, in front of or with your representative. But you know, if it if it's it depends on the level of it too, you know, if it's sort of a big deal news, you might pick up the phone and make it a phone call, um, you know, rather than an email. But it it you know, it varies. I one of the other things that I tend to do is well, I tend to do my rule of thumb is to is to be honest and and take whatever that executive or or producer, whoever's passing, take what they say, and I I take it pretty literally. I keep a I keep a probably no one knows this, I keep a notepad on my desk at all times, and I I write down what those executives are saying to me because I want to convey it really clearly to the client. You guys are wordsmiths, words matter, you know, words have meaning and impact. And so I try to convey that really clearly to the client so that they they get as much context as that executive is willing to give me and convey that to the to the writer. Um, you know, certainly I found when I worked in the agency system, agents, I'm hyper generalizing, do not tend to be the most sensitive people. And they would often hear pass and just tell the client, yeah, so-and-so passed. And as a as a writer, you are craving feedback, right? You're craving, well, why are they passing? What did they say? What are they, you know, you want some sort of context. So when I have context, I'd really try to relay that to the client because I know they they need it on some level, you know, and that that I think is really important. Uh what I will add to that, and I think it's very important for artists to hear, is that a lot of time the past is for a bullshit reason, right? They have come up with, well, we have something similar, but it's not so similar that you can't go out with your own project, but it has one element uh that's similar that that means they they just didn't love it enough, right? And I think it's important to remember that uh, you know, as a writer, that you know, sometimes they just didn't love it enough to want it. They just didn't love it enough to buy it. And it there may not be a real specific reason as to why they didn't want that project. But, you know, you can only take these things so personally because, you know, especially in the terms of selling pitches to networks, all of them they can only buy so much, you know, like they can't buy everything that comes in the door. They should have bought your project, they didn't, it's their loss. We'll go find the right home for it and persevere. But um, you know, sometimes these excuses that we get as reps are it's it's so phony and superficial that they just didn't love it enough, you know, and they're cooking up some reason to make an excuse so that we can band-aid it, right? Um, and that's by the way, executives will tell you it's hard on their end sometimes because they actually do feel an obligation most of the time to give us a reason for the pass, you know. And I just picture them sitting around tables going, like, how do we pass on this one? What, what, what excuse can we pluck from the air? Because they don't like to hurt people's feelings either. Because a lot of these writers and producers and artists that are bringing them a certain project will come back in, you know, a year later or two months later or whenever with a different project. And so they don't want to hurt people's feelings because it's such a small ecosystem of creatives and buyers and that patron and artist relationship is constant, particularly in television, where you know you're probably encountering the same writers and showrunners year after year.

SPEAKER_00 9:43

Well, there's there's so many things that you just said that I want to talk about because it matters to me as a client, but you know, often, and I think it might matter to the people that listen to our podcast, the rejections do matter. The language of the rejection matters because you do learn from it as painful as it is. And I also wish sometimes you would get a pass that said, instead of saying we have something else in development like this, where they say we liked it, but we didn't love it, because that's fair enough and they should love it. You want to be with a partner who's your producing partner, director partner, whoever you're going out to, who loves it. Otherwise, sort of what's the point? And it's really rare that something's gonna fit everybody's sort of sensitivities and sweet spots to love it. So it's not really a huge insult. Now, that's not very helpful as a note, but it's it's on. Sometimes helpful as a note is like the main character wasn't active enough. And these projects are never fully dead. And you can go back to it and go, well, maybe they were right, maybe there's ways I can make this better for the next round of submissions if we ever get there. But then going back to something else you said before that, that I really it's more of a question for you, Zadok. I I actually haven't really thought about this, uh, about the level of rejection that you get every day on our behalf, because you have, you know, X amount of clients, which is many, many times more than just me, obviously. And you um and I think, you know, for people out there who don't fully understand how the manager writer relationship works, there's a lot of work we both do on every project. So it's not like you know, agents maybe come in later, but the manager is in early and they're giving notes and they're spending time. And at some point, the project, yes, the writer has initiated it, but the manager is deeply involved in it before they're going to send it out. So it's probably painful all around to some degree that this thing didn't move forward. And so, you know, I can't, I can only guess how many, but let's just say we get a few rejections a week when a project's going out, right? Or whatever, you probably get 10 to 20 a day. And does that does that take its toll on you, or does it all sort of, you know, kind of come out in the wash when you get a really big yes at the end of the day and 22 no's, knowing that that one yes is going to be so exciting for that client that it's all just you know ratios and math, or is it more personal than that?

SPEAKER_03 12:04

Yeah, I I think it's a good question. I I think it just comes with a level of experience, right? Like, you know, just from doing it year after year after year, you know, you you uh, you know, you develop a thicker skin about it and you're more mature about it. And I think just like just like writers, you know, early in my career as a representative, I took these things much more personally. I got very frustrated. And and actually that is the I think the time of most rejection, right, is when the writer is really green and people only want to buy things from people who have credits and you try to get staffed, but you haven't staffed before. And there's this constant chicken-the-gg problem of how am I supposed to become what I want to be if nobody will give me the chance. And when you're a young representative, you have a lot of writers in that station, and you're also new to the job, and try to prove yourself and build your client list and build your career by building your clients' careers. So I look back on those early years, that was probably the hardest time because you are just getting a lot of no's, and it feels incredibly frustrating. You know, as my client list has matured, of course, clients are more in demand, they're working more regularly, you know, the wins come a little bit easier because people are, you know, experienced and now have established reputations. So I gotta say it has gotten easier. But the amount of rejection is still greater than the yeses, right? The no's are still more, they always will be. That's the nature of the industry we've chosen. Um, but I think I've gotten better about not taking it too personally. And I think you also get a better barometer of, hey, this project I really do think is gonna sell. And this one I love, but the marketplace isn't gonna get it. And it probably won't. And so it's less surprising to me when that thing doesn't sell, you know. Um, and we're in a very challenging marketplace right now that is super picky from you know, two years of backlog from COVID. And uh so now is a particularly challenging time taking out projects because it the buyers don't aren't that hungry, basically. And so they're passing on big projects and auspices and packages that you would think, oh, that definitely would have should have sold and would have in a different time. But there's just not a lot of hunger on this on the side of the networks and the streamers at the moment, which is frustrating to all of us, particularly the representatives who just want to be able to sell our clients' ideas and their passion projects. That that's been frustrating right now. But you know, everything changes in the business and everything goes in ebbs and flows, and we just kind of have to write out that period we're in right now from a from a development perspective.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

So we've talked about the fact that you know it's not uh you taking it personally because it's not your uh work. And also we've talked about the collaborative element. So I guess it is a question. So when you're working with a client on a project early on and you give notes, have there been any occasion where you say, I know, I'm gonna pick a very linear example so I can ask this question properly. You say to them, now this is great, but it needs to be funnier. And then you get the pass which says this was too funny. Like, have you actually directly contributed to something that's been the reason something's failed and therefore is sort of a bit more your fault than usual? Have you had a rejection like that?

SPEAKER_03 15:31

Oh, that's a really good question. Um, I think and this goes hand in hand with what Noah was saying. When you are a manager, you are involved creatively and you are, you know, we give notes at the idea stage and outline stage and are really, you know, hands-on with our clients. And as Noah says knows we're not afraid to do multiple drafts on the same project and keep improving things. I think it's important to talk about uh at least my personal style and approach to note giving. Uh, you know, I really keep in mind that I'm trying to help my client create the best version of that project possible, whether it's a script or a screenplay or pitch pages or, you know, whatever that is. It's about making it as strong and compelling and as well written as possible so that when it goes to the marketplace, people are going to want it. I can't get into a position of trying to make Noah Evslin's project the Zadok Angel version of that project. I have to make it the very best of what Noah Evslin wants it to be. And then I also think I can sell in the in the marketplace, right? So you're you're trying to really help your client achieve that. And so my personal style is not um, you know, not one of some dictator who knows everything and prescribes perfect notes that the client has to take every single note I give. I think that's silly. I also keep in mind that this business is highly subjective. You know, I can only bring to the table my own personal life experiences and point of view to material, and as do we all, right? And so nobody knows everything. And it's actually one of the reasons that Echo Lake, we're very aggressive about signing clients and teams. You know, Noah, I think, is about four managers on his team and has seen that firsthand. But it's important to us not only to have a team of people around a client so that you've got multiple people advocating for that person and finding opportunity for that person in the in the industry, but also that when we're giving feedback on material, you've got two or three professionals in the business reading something and giving you feedback. And so it's not just my experiences and my subjective opinion about your material. If three of us are having a similar issue on a project, you as the writer need to know that so that we can head it off at the past before it gets out to the world. Um, and out of the safety of that uh representative writer relationship. And so that's a lot of what I think about. I also know you, as the writer, have lived and breathed with this for hours and hours and days and days and thought about every permutation of story in a way that I possibly couldn't, having read that script that morning and thinking about my notes for half an hour. You know, like that's that's I there's no way one can get beat with that. You, the writer at the end of the day, are the boss and know all of the story paths and options that are available and are trying to make the best choices possible. So when we give notes and feedback, you're getting a chance to hear feedback from someone who hasn't been living with it, who is going to have a more, you know, I think objective view on it because they're not coming at the script with all of that knowledge and history and research right. And you get a sense of how an audience might receive that. And hopefully that's helpful in improving the project along the way. But you know, when I give notes, I know that the writer will decide which notes are helpful and which ones are not. And you have to implement the best of it and and ignore notes that aren't helpful for whatever reason. And ideally, together, we've improved the script for the project, you know, and that's that's how I think about it uh when I approach material uh that my clients bring to me. Um to your real question, it it is a very subjective business, right? So the way that I might direct a piece may not end up being the right choice at the end of the day when it goes to the marketplace. And there's always a little bit of a risk of that. Um I'm trying to like I when you when you mentioned like have you noted something in the way that was wrong, I I I honestly didn't have, I don't have an example like bursting in my brain of like, oh yeah, I remember I really screwed that up. But I think part of the reason for that is I don't try to make it my project as if I'm the writer by proxy, right? Like I'm trying to make it the best version of what the writer wants to be and is capable of making it, right? And so it doesn't when you're producing a project, um, you know, I think it's the investments even a little step further. And and that's um where I felt that that jeopardy a little bit more acutely. But um, but I think because at the end of the day, I I think we're putting out there the writer's best favorite version of their story, that it's it's not, it's not my you know, my doing my fingerprints on it that that totally took us in the wrong direction. I try I try not to do that um in what I do. But you know, everything's subjective and and it's hard to it's hard to predict what the buyer is gonna buy, what the buyer's gonna buy, and how you can only trust your guts and your instinct and your knowledge of the business so much. And we are an ever-evolving and changing business, particularly in the last two years. And so I think uh my colleague Dave Brown says this, you know, we don't have a crystal ball. You know, we we have we have phones and emails and you know, hard work, but we don't have a crystal ball. And and nobody does in the business, you know, and I think that's you know, it's it's frustrating to all of us. We are an advisory role, so we have a responsibility to be in touch with the marketplace, be in touch with executives and producers and know what people are looking for and wanting and watching current TV shows and movies and having a real sense of what's out there, because you as the artist can't, right? Like that's not your job day to day. That's my job. So I bring that information, that experience, those relationships to the table. But um, you know, you can only predict so much what's going to happen or what the appetite will be, you know, a year or even a few months from now, given how much the world is changing rapidly.

SPEAKER_00 21:59

This isn't a question. But I'd like to you know add some color from my perspective as a client when I receive notes from you guys, and and how it works from our perspective is it really does feel like a number of suggestions coming from a team. And if a number of people on that team have the same suggestion, then you take it very seriously that you missed, especially because there are four on my team, that you missed something, and it's always very gentle. It's like this is this is a suggestion, this is a change you can make, this is about making the project better, always about the project. And that, you know, as you get different notes from different people, you got to take those notes seriously in different ways. When a showrunner gives me notes today, I have no choice but to take those notes. They're the boss, it's their project. It's not, I don't have a decision to make. It's how do I execute that note as as best as I can. When you guys give me notes, you're you're my bellstone, right? You're the ones that are seeing the bigger picture. And if I don't get that, then I'm in the wrong relationship. I don't need to accept every note you give, but if I don't understand where your note is coming from, then we're really sort of missing the point. So it's it's about sort of finding the balance between the notes and the different people who give them.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

So we've asked a bit about gatekeeper type rejection. Obviously, presumably there is direct rejection in the sense that you will have been fired, presumably, by your clients at some point. But also, and I don't quite know how this works, but you might have told a client you are firing them or you no longer want to work for them. So let's explore obviously it's two sides of the coin, but tell me a little bit about that side of things and how it's approached, and maybe some obviously no not names, but some examples of where that's happened and why that's happened.

SPEAKER_03 23:42

Yeah, uh great question. But you know, I've never fired anyone and I've never been fired. So I just I don't know, guys. I just can't help you out on this one. It's that's tough. Um, kidding, of course, it it happens to to everybody. I think I think one thing uh I will I will say about this subject is that the representative client relationship can become incredibly passive aggressive. And it comes that stems from a lack of communication. And where relationships go sideways, it's often because of a lack of communication. And, you know, then that can be on our side, that can be on the creative side, you know, it it varies from situation to situation, but it's um yeah, it's one of the real uh you know, ugly realities of my chosen profession is that in theory, at any moment a client may fire you. And um that's uh you know, that's sort of a fear on the back of our brains that we just kind of have to live with and keep moving forward. And and you know, writers know darn well that that that you know a representative could call them out of the blue and let them go. And it's you know, nobody has contracts and it it can feel very random. So I think that um I you know, I don't like that that's the way the business is. I'm a really loyal guy. A lot of my clients are people like Noah, who've been with me a decade. You know, I really stand behind my people and stay with them for the for the long term and and believe in that. But um, sometimes you also have to accept that a relationship may have run its course or or its usefulness or whatnot. And uh, you know, there's that phrase, you know, people come into your life for a reason, for a season or for a lifetime. And, you know, I go into my relationships wanting them to be lifetime relationships, but you know, realistically that's not uh, you know, the case. And there have been times where it's like, oh, I was the right representative for that person during that time of their career, but maybe I wasn't, you know, later or before, you know, what whatever it is. You you have to accept that on some level people make the choices they make and that that was um for the best. But I I think I think back to the communication thing, and I really putting this out to, I'm sure a lot of writers listen to your podcast. Don't be afraid to have a conversation with your representative if you are having issues or you're feeling a disconnect, um, because they may be feeling it too and not knowing how to address it. And it's particularly hard during the valleys in one's career where a person's not working and they're frustrated. And, you know, we get frustrated on our end because we want to deliver and score for the client. And for whatever reason, things are clicking in the industry for that person at that time. And then, you know, people can stop talking during those periods because you know, you were use the writer, don't want to be the annoying person calling who's out of work, and we don't want to be the person calling that doesn't have any good news or something to offer you, right? So it's important to, even during those valley periods, to keep the lines of communication open and keep talking and keep working through it and finding the next thing and the next opportunity to build your career. Um, but I think a lot of misunderstanding happens when people aren't talking and communicating. And one thing I remind writers is that when when I entered the business 18 years ago, it was still a phone business. Like a lot of the communication happened by phone. And if you, you know, if if if somebody called you, you called them back that day. And that was the ethic of the business. And of course, that's all changed. Everyone emails and texts sometimes far more than they pick up the phone and call anybody. And and COVID and the pandemic accelerated that infinitely, where so everything feels like it's happening over email. But uh and writers like email because you're wordsmiths and you like writing things and you like choosing your words and and expressing yourself through words. So I totally get that. But I find that writers forget that we have phones and phone sheets and we are returning calls. And when I call a client and talk on the phone with them, I feel the relationship renewed every time. I like talking to my clients on the phone. And that has gotten a little lost in our modern era, but it's it's really helpful and I think it's really beneficial to both you, the artist and the representative, because you feel that connection again that you don't feel over email, you know, or or text. It just can't replace that. I like in-person meals with my clients too, but I haven't been able to do that in almost two years. You know, that that has been a huge frustration for me because I really enjoy the human connection and the socialization part of our business. And you know, that's been stolen from us in a lot of ways. And uh, but it's important. I think you'll, if you are having issues with your representative, pick up the phone, call them, talk them out, ask them about their lives, get into a conversation and talk about okay, how do we break through this log jam? And they'll feel reconnected and recommitted to you as the client too, coming off of that call. It's a it's a it it's a tool in your toolbox that a lot of creatives forget that they have.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

I don't think anyone should ever be surprised on either side if they're getting let go, right? It's there should be a there should be that one conversation that from either side saying maybe you you need to turn in more samples or or change up your you know, what at your game a little bit from the rep side and from the writer side, I you know, I might need a little bit more attention. And if that call never happens and then someone drops something, it's like there was a missed opportunity there. This is you know from my perspective, but I do have a you know uh a question for you. Uh first off, I just want to say that, and I and I and I emailed you this, I should have called you. I was super proud to discover a few months ago that you got bumped up to co-president of Echo Lake. You know, it was we've been together for so many years. So to watch your journey, you know, and and and was was sort of really exciting. But I know with that comes a new a huge level of new responsibility, right? You not only have the clients to worry about, you have a company to worry about as well. And you mentioned something in the very beginning of the podcast that other writers have mentioned, huge writers have come on, telling us, you know, it's a podcast about failure, rejection, and adversity. And that this last year they took out massive projects, massive IPs. Nobody bought them. That these are the best creators with the top-level IP, and the companies are passing for for whatever reason, you know. Maybe you talk about how they have too much product or or whatever, you know, COVID sort of changed the game. So, what is keeping you up right now as a rep and and a president and a company leader about our industry today?

SPEAKER_03 30:46

Yeah, I it's a great question. I mean, I look, the the bad marketplace is is problematic, you know, because I'm an optimistic person. I think you have to be to get through the business. And so you always think, well, they might buy it, but you also don't want to rush people's passion projects out to market just to get a bunch of rejection, you know, that that you kind of can see coming. And so there is, I think, yet another round of pulling projects back, not taking it to market, which only means there'll be another glut of projects, you know, six months or nine months from now, whenever people feel safe again to open the floodgates. And so we're gonna be in this for a while, you know, it it it's uh two or three years of people not having a fair shot or feeling like they have a fair shot at getting their projects sold for development. But there are multiple reasons for that. It's not just COVID and budgets being overrun and spending being pulled back, particularly during the pandemic, it accelerated that trend that was going to happen anyway, of streamers replacing broadcast networks and basic cable networks. And that just accelerated infinitely during uh the pandemic. And it means that every company in media has new boss, and all the executives who are doing development don't know what their bosses want, don't know their boss's taste. The sand is shifting beneath their feet. And so it's an incredibly risk-averse time for buying projects because it's not necessarily about the quality of the creative or the passion of the executive for that project or that writer. They're scared for their job and they don't know what their boss wants from them. It can be as simple as that. And I think there's a lot of that going on that people don't quite appreciate. You know, there's ABC and ABC doesn't have a standalone network president. Craig Erwick runs ABC and Hulu, right? Like, think about that. That's mind-blowing that you know, one of our oldest television networks doesn't have a dedicated president to itself. And that's because Hulu is probably way more important than ABC. It's a it's a streamer, it's the future, and that's how they're all heading in that direction. And that bigger picture, we just have to keep in mind when we're thinking about projects and the creative. And, you know, we're so in the granular of ideas, but we're dealing with an industry going through massive, massive change. So that's um, yeah, that's something I'm not you know thrilled about about the time we're in. It may mean more emphasis on staffing for clients or developing screenplays, or hey, have you ever thought about writing a book? I mean, part of being a manager is being open-minded about your clients and your clients' interest and his or her potential and promoting that. So you you do have to maybe be a little more creative in this environment, maybe be a little more strategic, but think about it, think openly, get creative, you know, find a path, find a way. And that's um, that's how I try to approach it. But you know, we we're in a challenging time right now. But I got to say, there's there's one thing that early in my career, when I was a baby agent, Paradigm would pay for a table at the uh Hollywood Radio and Television Societies. They used to do these monthly, they may still do them, I don't know, maybe virtually, but they used to do these uh kind of like industry symposiums every other month. And it was basically a rubber chicken luncheon, and lots of uh usually reps and executives would show up and go to these things. And they would have guest speakers and panels with all the network presidents, that kind of thing. And one year, Michael Eisner, I think this is right after he had uh ended his time at Disney, he gave kind of a keynote address um to the group, and he started out with a speech in which he said, you know, we're going through an incredible time of enormous change in technology, is accelerating that change, but we will persevere and you know figure out you know the next generation of entertainment. And then he stopped and he said, That's a speech I gave in 1982 at the advent of the VCR. And that I have always kept in mind because we are always going through change in this business. We always think it's insurmountable, we always think the sky is falling and we're gonna go over the cliff and everything will dry up and disappear overnight. I mean, there's that I think everyone in Hollywood has that healthy fear underlying their day-to-day. But the truth is we've always adapted, we've always changed, we've always found a way. And I keep that in mind because as daunting as the challenges may feel right now, they're gonna change, they're gonna mutate into something else. You know, we'll find a way. And I I I think that that really helps me keep an open mind and keep uh optimism about where we're heading and where we're going.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

So actually, so actually I'm gonna ask a this is probably a quite not a controversial but complicated question, potentially. So cancel culture, the Me Too movement, and so on. Um and diversity, a lot of things have changed. Obviously, a lot of things have changed in the industry for many years, but this particular change that's been going on, you know, as a manager, you're sitting in an interesting part of the business around it. Now, you know, I obviously I don't know who all of your clients are. Um, I hope none of them have been cancelled or got close to cancelled, but how do you how do you deal with all of that? And also, you know, do you have to do due diligence on potential new clients in a way that maybe you never used to have to do?

SPEAKER_03 36:44

Yeah, I think uh great question. It's uh it's that's part of the changing time we're in right now, uh, a real reckoning with Hollywood's long-term sexism and you know, racism, and how we are finally giving uh women and and you know creators of color voice and power, and it's not uh done so in a tokenism kind of fashion. I mean, it's this is one of the many seismic changes we're going through right now. And it's you know it's great. I mean, I think I think it is wonderful that we're in a world where we can make TV shows and movies that would not be allowed, that would never have gotten through the system even five years ago, because people are being forced to expand and open their minds of what the TV show or a movie or a writing staff can be and look like and the stories they can tell and express. So it's you know, that the kinds of stories we can tell just expanded exponentially. And that's really, really exciting. Um, you know, I think for for me, I hope that this push towards, you know, the to inclusivity is a great thing for good people in the business, good human beings, you know, that the cancel culture is canceling the toxic personalities and the people who are always abusive and mistreating people. And Hollywood, Hollywood really uh put up with those types. If if you were talented or successful, you got to indulge in a lot of bad behavior that the business tolerated, and the whole business sort of subscribed to that. And it's uh it's a terrible thing. And luckily we're having a real reckoning with that, where we won't put up with that behavior anymore. And I am hopeful for good guys like the three of us on this podcast, that's a good thing, you know. That's a good thing that maybe, maybe the good guy can win in this environment. Um, maybe the good guy can be, and woman can be exalted in this climate, and that we are not going to exalt toxic people uh in this culture anymore. And so I I really try to look at it as a good thing for the vast majority of us who do, you know, pay our dues and play by the rules and work really hard and treat people well. Everyone should be doing those things in our business. And so I'm excited about how that changes the culture and the values and the dynamics going forward. And there's certainly values that you know we subscribe to at Echolake from the top down and really embrace. And we've always been known as a good guy company and a good culture and nice people. But before this sort of moment in Hollywood, that was viewed as a little bit of a weakness, too, right? They're nice, you know, but it's the it's the assholes and the screamers and yellers that you want to be with because somehow they're gonna like yell and scream someone into giving you a deal. You know, that's doesn't wasn't ever really real. But it it was a business that favored two representatives and executives and producers and people who were toxic personalities because we were all exulting them, thinking that that was what you needed to be and do in order to get results and achieve success. So if we stop valuing that, then we can value people who do the work and and you know think intelligently and treat people well and and all be successful and not have to sell our souls to be successful in the business. You know, that's that's a terrible cost. And none of us should have to do that. And we should be able to be true to ourselves and be successful. And, you know, I'm I'm lucky that on some levels I've experienced that myself. And I I haven't, my mother, I grew up on a dairy farm in upstate New York, and my mom is so proud that somehow I'm succeeding in Hollywood and I've been able to maintain my values and who I am. And I I'm very proud of that. And that's part of my DNA and makeup. But I do wonder, hey, if I come into the business 20, 30 years ago, would I have been able to achieve a similar level of success or more? You know, maybe not, because I didn't fit into a toxic personality mold that uh the business had traditionally exalted. So uh that's one thing I think about to address your question.

SPEAKER_00 41:16

I I and I totally agree that, you know, when I I kind of came from Hollywood on the outside and had this reputation of being this sort of horrific place on some levels. And I got here and I found out that most of you are really smart, hardworking, good people. And of course, I've had my share of toxic encounters, but by and large, the people here really are trying to have the best culture possible. And I think the seismic shift is somewhat coming from without, but it's also coming from within. We're making our own change and assist this with the attempt to kind of make our industry better and more inclusive, which is which is a really good thing. This all brings us, unfortunately, to our final question, which we ask um everybody in relationship to the field that they're in. So if you have any piece of advice to an up-and-coming manager who wants to come into your field, uh uh, what would it be?

SPEAKER_03 42:07

Uh work hard, work really hard. You know, I think that um, you know, one of the hallmarks of my life was that uh again, I grew up on a dairy farm. And so I have kind of this crazy farmer work ethic. And that was the that's like the only thing that from my childhood that translated to Hollywood. Otherwise, I was this gay, creative kid watching TV and caring about who won at the Emmys, and nobody else in my town cared at all. And so I uh I was this creative kid who, you know, uh really was not born in the right place, but I did learn uh, you know, a really strong work ethic from my parents. And that uh that I think people need in Halloween for everyone. I mean, this doesn't just apply to managers, but writers, actors, directors, you have to have that motor of ambition and work ethic inside you that keeps putting one foot in front of the other and keeps working and doesn't, you know, just fall apart when there's a no or a rejection. You really do have to have that self-belief and keep moving forward. And you know, I think writers know that acutely because you guys do experience so much, you know, rejection and have to accept that everyone's read on a piece of material is entirely subjective and what one person thinks, another will think something differently. And there's a lot of frustrations with that. But um, you know, just keep putting that effort forward. And I do think eventually hard work and intelligence and kindness will pay off. Um, at the beginning, it's hard to see uh because it feels like it's just the sharks getting ahead. But I think long term, you know, you'll come out on top. So um, yeah, young manager work hard, have great taste, and do right by your clients.

SPEAKER_01 43:53

Very good. Look, Zadok, a man who's had an incredible career, not you know, obviously representing Noah with standing. Um, thank you very much indeed for being part of our podcast.

SPEAKER_03 44:04

Thank you, guys. I really appreciate it. It's my first podcast, so I this is an honor. Thanks so much. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 44:10

Thank you, Zado.

SPEAKER_03 44:12

Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_01 44:15

Thank you for listening to another one of our fantastic episodes. Yet again, I think you'll find that I ask better questions than Noah. Noah, have you got anything to say?

SPEAKER_00 44:25

Um, as always, uh, since you've done most of the talking, I'm just gonna sit here quietly again.

SPEAKER_01 44:30

Surely there's some people to thank.

SPEAKER_00 44:32

Oh, right, right, right, right. Uh, I would love to thank James Launch for doing all of our outro music. Um, as always, I think we owe a big thank you to both of our wives who support us through this endeavor that started in our basement and seems to be ever growing. And if you want to reach out to either Dan or I, I am at at N Ebslin on Twitter. I'm not sure Dan has a Twitter account. Dan, do you have a Twitter account?

SPEAKER_01 44:57

I mean, I I do, but no one cares. All they care about is being on Noah's podcast. So well done, Noah, for conceiving, producing, editing, writing, and asking the best questions of the two of us because you've done all this work and well done you.

SPEAKER_00 45:11

I do think it's worth pointing out after 33 or so episodes that I do both voices. There actually is no damn resting. Wanka!