Take 38 - Writer and showrunner Joseph Mallozzi, Stargate SG-1, Dark Matter

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for sure, dozens of unproduced scripts littering the floor.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

For every success, there is means sometimes even years of painful failure. This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default.

SPEAKER_02 0:31

That's the normal thing you would have to be able to persevere. Like everything in our business here, it hands in the out and it all bounces off you.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

That process takes me because that doesn't happen overnight. I was being told by my manager it's yours to lose, and I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking, like, well, that's it for me. I blew my one big shot. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. As ever, I am your non-entertainment co-host, Englishman Dan Rutstein. Welcome, Noah. How are you?

SPEAKER_02 1:14

Good. I I you're an Englishman. I'm finally learning that. That's a really good piece of trivia for all of our people out there. Uh I am not an Englishman. But today I am very excited to introduce the noted TV writer, producer, and showrunner, Joseph Malazzi, on top of writing over hundreds of on top of writing over 120 hours of television across no less than 25 TV shows. He also co-wrote over 75 episodes of Stargate SG1, Stargate Atlanta, and Stargate Univorce first before eventually becoming the executive producer of all three. He was also the co-creator and showrunner of Dark Matter. More recently, he developed and was the showrunner of Utopia Falls on Hulu. Welcome, Jeff.

SPEAKER_03 1:58

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

So uh I don't normally describe myself as English, but when we have a Canadian-based guest and an Englishman, it's just important. So the guest, the the listeners will hear two out of three of us using our grammar correctly uh and being polite. So let's start. So obviously, this is a rejection, failure, and adversity podcast, but you've had over 120 hours of television made. So even though you've been in the industry for a long time, that doesn't leave a lot of room for long, fallow periods of rejection and unemployment. So tell us about the gaps.

SPEAKER_03 2:40

Well, um, you know, at the beginning of my career, there were very few gaps, and I was very proud of the fact. In fact, my when we were on Stargate, it's funny, I started my career in animation, went straight into uh live action teen sitcoms, and then into one-hour dramas, and then was very lucky to land on Stargate fairly early. And uh, we were told it was going to be a two-year gig. When SQ unwrapped its fifth season, we would be done. And of course, that two-year gig ended up turning into like a 12-season, 17-year ride. Um that finally ended. We actually did a show after that that will remain nameless. That was one of the worst experiences of my life. Uh, and then I was in development for a while, and and kind of I learned the the frustrations of being in development, which, which I mean, it's it's it's you know, it's it's like uh you're both sinking uh in in the darkness and you're treading water, and you don't know how long you've been treading water, you don't know how far you are from shore, but you just got to keep treading water. And um, you know, I I tend to sort of juggle as many projects as possible. And I just was very fortunate um to land my original series, Dark Matter, uh, on uh Netflix and sci-fi, and and that was great. And then there were a couple of years where once again I was riding the development merry-go-round, and and I ended up on a show called Utopia Falls, which was not my creation, and which to be to be quite frank, I I didn't think was right for me. But uh through a series of kind of bizarre uh circumstances, I ended up showrunning and it was a lot of fun. I actually used my old dark matter crew. Uh, and then uh since I delivered the final episode of uh Utopia Falls, which was December of 2019, I've been in uh an extended development uh period. And I mean, in this business, you're only as good as your last show. And my last show was back in 2019. And and you know, because of the pandemic, I ended up maybe taking on a little more work than I usually do in development. And so um I've been very busy, which has been great. Uh, however, it would be nice to get back into production, I would say.

SPEAKER_01 5:01

Obviously, there's a lot of people who've spent a couple of years uh in development, either in one go or obviously spread out. Because you sort of hit the jackpot in terms of longevity quite early. Are you uh a you quite impatient around this process because you just want to get back to another 17 years of show?

SPEAKER_03 5:23

Uh well, it's very kind of you to say that basically, uh uh uh calling me fairly young. Uh I think actually I I got started in the in the business probably in my early 30s, which uh I guess I wouldn't consider young for industry standards, but uh I think I'm generally an impatient uh individual. So uh yes, which is why I tend to take on more work than than uh I really should. Uh but again, I said, like as I said, in in this business, you never know what's going to land. And more often than not, it's the project you least expect to go that ends up getting that green light. So you want to have your basis covered.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

I I have a question. I was looking at your um your IMDB, and you mentioned this a second ago as well, that you shifted from uh children's programming and young adult programming to the Stargate universe. And I know a lot of people have problems doing that. It you made it sound fairly easy and routine, but I know a ton of writers who've gotten siloed and stuck to some degree in animation and show and they want to they want to come out into live action. And for some, and sometimes people from live action want to go over to animation. There's been a it's very hard to cross over between the two. How did you do that?

SPEAKER_03 6:35

Yeah, I mean, I understand that, and maybe I do writers a disservice because one of the uh recommendations I always make to new and upcoming writers is to try to get their foot in the door in animation. I mean, write that pilot, write that spec, uh, but look to animation because they tend to be more welcoming of new writers, and it allows you to hone your craft while getting paid. Uh so I mean, I I remember I um my first uh sale was to um an animated series called The Busy World of Richard Scary, an episode called Patrick Pig Learns to Talk, which I'm sure you guys are familiar with, uh has all of the Hallmark uh uh elements in a Joseph Mulazzi script, the twists, the turns, uh the character drama. Uh and and uh you know it that came about because I was interested in in obviously, you know, as a live action writer, the brass ring is features, and I wanted to be a feature writer. And I thought, well, I'll, you know, I'll I'll try to get my foot in the door in one of the uh productions company as as a uh script reader who does coverage. And I ended up sending my resume out to like over a hundred different production companies. And uh I think eight responded, and seven said thanks, but no thanks. But one responded and said, Hey, we we're not really looking for a script reader, but if you're interested, you're interested in writing for animation, this is what we do. We send you the Bible, you send us some pitches. If we like your idea, we'll hire you to write the script. And so that's how I entered the business. And I remember I made something like $3,000 on my first year, and I was like, holy shit, I have made it $3,000. It would be great if I could double that next year. And then I did, and I was like, wow, $6,000. I mean, uh, you know, I wonder if I can double that next year. And then I did, and and you know, that was kind of always a a uh a goal for me. Um, and so I mean I started in animation and then I kind of worked my way up within the world of animation. Uh I um started simply as a writer, and then I story edited uh certain series. I I was a story editor for for um the CBS Saturday morning lineup. Um I ended up being hired by an animation studio to develop shows and for in-house development. Uh and um and then, you know, I heard that there was a Fox show. It was a YA series called Student Bodies that they were looking for for writers. And my writing um our future writing partner and I uh submitted some writing samples, and then we landed on that YA show, and and we were on the YA show, but at the same time, I was continuing my animation, um, my story editing in animation. And ultimately we landed on Stargate. Like amid all, like I mean, I I, you know, I from half hour um teen sitcoms, we ended in up in one hour action drama. Again, it helps to have an agent. Um, I know sort of a lot of people are like, uh, you know, so the, you know, I my agent never gets me work. And that's true for the most part. But very early in my career, my agent did find me work, did actually, at the very least, introduce me to the people who were looking to hire writers. And um, and so I I did, I don't even remember this kind of the one-hour shows we ended up on, something like Lost World and and uh Largo Winch. And uh and I I continued my animation work at the same time because by that point in my career, uh, my animation work paid a lot more than my my live action work. And then my agent, who happened to represent Robert Cooper, who was one of the exec producers on Stargate, told me they're looking for writers, they haven't had much luck, uh, but they want to read you. And so they read us, we were allowed to pitch, and we ended up receiving the offer to join SG1 for the show's fourth season. And I remember at the time, I actually had to take a pay cut to join Stargate because uh the animation world was you know just you know, was very kind to me at that point in my career. But I figured really, if there's a time to sort of jump ship, that was it for a show like Stargate. And so we ended up on Stargate, and you know, it was again. I mean, I well when I look back on my on my career, just kind of the the industry in general, I think, you know, it's it's 30 talent, 30 connections, and 30 luck. And um, you know, some people have more than uh, you know, uh than uh than others and in in in in certain degrees. So I guess I was very lucky.

SPEAKER_02 11:22

I I do want to comment on your on your point about starting an animation. Again, it's very difficult to just say let's start here or start. It's very difficult to start anywhere, as a lot of people know, but um starting animation is such unusual and yet sort of poignant advice. I know so many animation writers who are so talented on the page at at the clarity in which they write their scene descriptions because they know the animators need to animate it and there's they don't have an actor interpreting it the way you know live action does, and the clarity and specificity for animation, these writers are extremely, extremely talented. And you would think it would cross over more into the live, that they'd be jumping to hire some of these people, and maybe they are now as our worlds are blending closer and closer. But you made a comment in there, a throwaway comment, kind of in this last comp uh uh comment about um feature writing and that it all had always been a goal of yours, and the grass was greener. And I noticed in your very dense IMDb, there wasn't a lot of feature writing. Is that something that you know? Is that something you feel like you've missed out on, or was it a hard bar to cross over? I know I was super excited when I sold my first feature for the same reason. It's just something you want to do in your career.

SPEAKER_03 12:34

Yeah, yeah. I mean, like very early on in the career, or any young writer, like I said, features are the brass ring, but as as so you spend more time in the industry, you realize that uh uh features are really more of a director's game, whereas the power and the money uh as and the creative freedom for a writer is in television. And and that's sort of what what you know I realize. And I mean, I have friends who who have uh sold features, work, like some some very big features, and um more often than not, their experience is not being uh, shall I say, overwhelmingly positive. Uh, you know, they they they you know they they're invited on set because I think um you know guild requirements uh uh but um you know they're not very welcome. Um they're um you know, they don't they don't feel respected. I mean, I guess this this is I mean just sort of the experience of the handful of writers, uh feature writers I know. Whereas again in television, I think there's more work, there's more opportunity, and um there's the opportunity to make a lot more money, which is always nice.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

So when you got the gig on Stargate, when you were in it, did you realize uh what you had in the sense of were you sitting there thinking, oh, there's at least 17 years of uh more to run in this, you know, like then.

SPEAKER_03 14:10

No, absolutely something. No, absolutely not. I mean, when we joined for the show's fourth season, we were told we'll do one more season and we would end it with a fifth season. And so the fifth season came along, we wrapped up the storylines, and then the show uh left showtime for sci-fi. And so we were told we're getting a sixth season. That was a huge surprise. And so we said, okay, this is gonna be the final season, so we're gonna give it our all. And we wrapped up the show, and then it turns out the ratings were great, and sci-fi wanted to pick it up for a seventh season. So we were like, wow, this is you know unimaginable. So, you know, we wrote a terrific series, finale. Um, and then we were picked up for an eighth season, and then so on and so on, and then we got the spin-off. And and I have to say, every year, specifically on SG1, those years through seasons four through nine were always just a complete surprise. Uh, until season 10. And when we got the season 10 pickup, and at that point we were producing Struggate Atlantis at the time. It's just bonkers when I think back that we used to uh produce 40 hours of television uh a year back then. And um, in my mind, at that point I thought, well, you know, just we were such a well-oiled machine, and the sci-fi Friday lineup is doing so well for sci-fi, uh, they'd be crazy to cancel us. So that was a one season, uh, you know, season 10, I finally assumed we would be back for an 11th season. And that was the season we were canceled. Uh, although we were almost saved by Apple, who uh at the time um were exploring the possibility of getting into television, and they thought that saving SG1 uh would be a wonderful you know way of doing that. But unfortunately, because of a clause in our you know, the MGM contract with Sci-Fi, um, we weren't allowed to take it anywhere. Or essentially sci-fi exercised that option, preventing us from uh saving the show.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

So yeah, I guess it's we've had a couple of guests on who have been on uh long-running shows and then got off them because they were worried that it was becoming I think one put it, it was not too easy, but it was it wasn't a a challenge as a writer anymore. So we had somebody walk talk about when they left Law and Order, and somebody who I'm trying to think what the other show was, they but they left it for it was a it was a procedural. And I guess for you, was there a time where you thought, even though money's great long running, where you thought I need to escape because I want to try something different?

SPEAKER_03 16:52

There was never, I mean, creatively, it was always a challenge because uh especially in the case of SG1 and even Atlantis, um it was a more less serialized and more episodic. And so each episode had a beginning, middle, and end. And in terms of um storytelling, you could you could do anything you wanted. You could do a hard sci-fi story, you could do like a horror story, you could do something that delved into fantasy, you could do something uh that was more mythologically based, you could do kind of the uh uh offbeat, uh humorous episodes. I mean, those were all always a lot of fun. I mean, over like 300 hours of uh of uh Stargate franchise, our uh Time Loop episode ended up being the fan favorite, which still kind of surprises me. Um, but from a creative standpoint, it it was you know, I uh it was a great experience. So, I mean, I I never felt uh that we weren't being challenged in that respect. Uh, in terms of the uh the mood, the atmosphere, it was an incredibly supportive atmosphere. It was, it was, it was very positive. Brad and Robert, who were the the co-showrunners, were really good about inviting us in and you know, kind of showing us the robes. We we sat out on editing very early. We we sat in on all the concept meetings to the point where you know, by the end of our run, uh, you know, the writer's room was made up of essentially, we're all the kind of de facto showrunners. We're all running our own episodes from start to finish. Um, so you know, and I mean, of course, there are there are times when, you know, after a certain number of years, you you start thinking about, oh, you know, uh, you know, maybe I should think about um, you know, pursuing another show or you begin to feel kind of uh uh underappreciated. And I remember one of one of the writers who was there with us for a couple of years, um, he basically just kind of he he's he kind of been kind of a uh an old hand and had been in the business for a while. And he just kind of shook his head, is like, you ride this train until it hits the station. You do not want to get off. Uh, trust me. And you know, I took those words to heart. And so we ran, you know, we we we took that train and rode it to the end of the station. I'm glad we did. I mean, it was a great experience. And uh, you know, like I said, it was uh, I'm not sure if it's atypical of the business, but we ended up landing on a show I will not uh name, where it's the exact opposite, um ill-prepared, people kind of throwing each other under the bus, um, lying, which totally took us by surprise. Uh, and frankly, I have to admit, I went in kind of naive because of my experience on Stargate that was so positive, where really everyone was, you know, very supportive. And and I mean a lot of it had to do with Brad and Robert because I joined in season four. But at that point, they had kind of worked out all the uh all the bugs. Uh, and so you know, it was a production that was uh, I would say a very unpleasant experience for me. And um they kind of ate us alive. Uh, but I learned a lot from it so that when I set up Dark Matter, I uh made sure that it kind of you know followed the Stargate mold and that it was a positive work environment. Uh, we were always prepared, and um, we kind of didn't take shit from anyone.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

So I was gonna ask you a question about writing on a show for that long and and the fans, but because this is a rejection and failure podcast, and you've just talked about a difficult show. I'm not gonna obviously ask you the name of the show, but I'd like to talk a bit more about that experience though. So, and and more importantly, actually, the transition from being in a bad place and then using that for when you're in charge in your next room. So, you know, you said it was ill-prepared. Tell us a bit more about what was, you know, what how quickly you realized it, you know, wasn't a great work environment and the sorts of things that went on there and what you learned from that.

SPEAKER_03 20:56

Yeah, I mean, it started off wonderful. They, you know, there was there were these huge press releases that talked about how much money the show had, and and uh um, and then we started kind of reading the scripts, and and it's you know, even though we were purportedly had so much money, uh, the scripts that that had been written, it was it was part of a co-production, and and apparently showed being developed 14 months prior to our landing on the show. Uh, and uh the scripts were unproducible. And the European broadcasters had signed off on it and said these scripts are great, and these are the scripts we're shooting. And uh suddenly it was my job to tell them, actually, no, you don't have enough money to to to you know uh produce these episodes. Uh and they kind of pushed back and were kind of angry. So basically, right from the beginning, uh, you know, that that kind of soured our relationship. Uh what came as kind of a bigger surprise was that um the money that that they were publicly saying we had, that I assumed we had uh was a lie. It was actually far, far less. And um it was really tough because we were actually dealing with four broadcasters, uh, two of whom wanted two completely different shows, like totally different shows. One wanted kind of a kind of a fun kind of family uh romp, while the other one wanted a dark uh action-driven uh series. And uh and they would never get on the same page. And we just kind of found ourselves trying to uh, you know, in my in in my case, trying to do the very Canadian thing and find sort of a compromise solution. Uh and again, like I'll say, they ate us a lot. They um, you know, we uh uh um we were you know, you know, staying up nights late, you know, doing rewrites after rewrites after rewrites. Um uh I remember sort of the the um uh our transport team quit uh before we even started production. The um electrical group, uh, the grips quit, uh I think a couple of weeks into production. Um it was just a kind of a really nightmare scenario. And I remember my writing partner was just going crazy and and he was having a miserable time. But I I'd reached the point kind of a no return, if you will. So we're you were like, you know, this is this is terrible. And I told him, like, you look basically um it's a terrible situation we're in, but we gotta kind of, you know, we'll we'll we'll we'll push through. Um the worst thing that can happen isn't that we're forced off the show. The worst thing that can happen is that we have they keep us on for the duration of our contractual obligation, um, which did not did not happen. But we ended up being forced off the show and and uh because we uh it reached a point sort of where it just uh you know it we kind of had to put our foot down and uh uh just from a production standpoint, things were were not making sense. So we were forced off the show, and they brought in another showrunner uh who, from what I understand, uh lasted, I think, a month and a half, and then said he was going on vacation, and the production office ended up finding out that he and he had actually bought a one-way ticket and he wasn't coming back. So they lost a second showrunner, and then a third showrunner came on. He lasted a couple of months and got through, I think, most of the series, and then he got fed up and left. And then I think a fourth showrunner finished uh the uh the series. Um, so I mean, it's uh I mean I think that's as bad as as it gets, but I'm not sure. I mean, I uh I'm sure people have had worse experiences.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

When when you were in it, were you just sitting there thinking this is terrible? Were you sitting there thinking, well, I'm gonna learn, you know, I'm gonna sort of consciously look around and make draw conclusions and learn things that I'm gonna do completely differently in my next room, or is it just No, at the time I wasn't really cognizant of it being a powerful learning experience.

SPEAKER_03 25:08

I uh as I said, it was very frustrating, especially at the beginning, but then after a while it became almost humorous. Um, so while while my writing partner was, you know, I'm not saying necessarily having a nervous breakdown, but he wasn't really not having a good time. Uh, I just kind of found it funny. But but I mean, you find kind of that silver lining or the flashes of uh uh of hope within kind of that dark morass. And and that was the people. Like, I mean, the crew I thought was great. Um uh one of the other writers, uh a European writer who came in, who who basically, when we we came on board, he'd been with the project for 14 months, and he was instantly suspicious of us, uh, as we were of him. And um, you know, we became such good friends, and uh, you know, I still you know talk to him to this day and will love to find something to uh collaborate with him on. So I mean, you know, you know, as always, uh I you know, I think it's kind of the relationships you make while making television that uh that that you know really is that kind of silver lining, no regardless of what the uh you know how the production turns out.

SPEAKER_02 26:19

I want to circle back to something you said a while back ago. It's just a comment on how you commented on how feature writers and TV writers, there's such a disparity in power. And I think a lot of people don't fully get that if they're in our industry, that we a lot of us do move into this field to be feature writers because you saw you grew up with the Academy Awards or you saw a movie and you loved it and you want to write a movie, and then you get into the industry and you know you don't get invited to set or you get rewritten over and over and over again, and you realize on the TV side, while there's staffs and there's rewriting going on, that the level of power is so much different. Um, and I guess the level of heartache can also be different because you're in it longer and kind of leading back into the present. You talk a lot about your your writing partner. Does he or she help you process emotionally um some of these harder times? And are you guys still together today?

SPEAKER_03 27:14

Uh no, actually, we uh went our separate ways after I would I would say really Stargate. Um, I mean, we we were by by the second half of Stargate, we were writing Partners Ready only on credit only, simply because I tended to write more of the original episodes and he tended to do more of the uncredited rewrites of other writers, uh, unpaid, uh uncredited. So, you know, out of fairness, we ended up sharing a lot of the on most of the on-screen credits. Uh, and then we landed on, you know, uh Dark Matter ended up going and he didn't want to move to the East Coast. Uh he had family, so I ended up showrunning myself and and and and running the show. And so we haven't really worked together since. And I mean, you know, of course, I mean, not just him, but the other writers as well. There's always, you know, there's a camaraderie, uh, kind of almost like, you know, you're heading off to war when you start a production, and and you know, you can always kind of lean on them and you know, go out for drinks and and uh, like I said, commiserate. So, I mean, you know, certainly having uh other people in the weeds with you was always helpful just from a kind of a psychological standpoint.

SPEAKER_02 28:24

Do you think the rules need to change in regards to writing partnerships? Because I know a lot of people who have writing partners who had writing partners and no longer have writing partners, because if the business is hard for one person to succeed, it's even harder sometimes for two when they have to split everything up.

SPEAKER_03 28:41

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I mean, that that's an interesting question. I've always wondered whether having hiring a writing team was a plus rather than a negative in that you have two voices in the room as opposed to one. Um, I mean, I I guess it would depend on their quote, how much they're getting paid. Um, you know, I I I don't I generally don't think a writing partnership would be uh more expensive than hiring a single writer uh in terms of quotes. So I mean I think that would be a bonus for the production.

SPEAKER_02 29:15

Yeah, I mean, I think that's the thing is they do get two writers for the normally for the cost of one. And then I'm just seeing lately with shorter orders and network TV being a thing of the past or long runs like Stargate being a thing of the past for the most part, that these these writer writing teams have, even if they love each other, financially it doesn't make sense anymore. And they begin to talk about that.

SPEAKER_03 29:38

Yeah, it doesn't make sense. I I agree with that from a financial standpoint, but also from a career standpoint, after a while, um, you know, I I remember during Stargate, I would want to sort of go out and and and do something apart from him. And my agent would say, well, well, you gotta write your own pilot now, you gotta write your own uh feature or whatever, because all of your your produce credits are co-writes. Uh, and even though, like I said, I I I'd been writing most of the original uh uh uh episodes, I was sharing the credit. So um, you know, I I I I think in some respects having a uh a writing partner does hinder.

SPEAKER_02 30:20

As we as we uh head into our final question, I have one previous question because you have a lot of experience over a lot of episodes on a lot of shows. You know, what is your very worst Hollywood experience?

SPEAKER_03 30:38

Uh well I can't say Hollywood, I could say television industry experience since I do most of my work in in Canada, although I mean I have, you know, uh been to LA. Um but the worst Hollywood experience was that that production where it was uh just unlike anything I ever expected, where uh people were actively throwing each other under the bus. Um, you know, just just because Stargate was so supportive in that this other show was not, and I began to wonder whether, you know, at first I thought this this this production must is so atypical of of uh of uh shows. And then sort of as time went on, I realized actually, no, Stargate was the atypical production. And you know, there's a lot of uh, frankly, maddening shit that goes on in this industry. And, you know, it's it's obviously, I mean, it's it's tougher for for up-and-coming writers because they will always have to sort of deal with the shit in order, you know, to sort of get at a point in their career when they can create that uh wonderfully stable, positive uh production environment.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

Very good. So look, unfortunately it is time to wrap, which means asking the final question on this podcast, which is if you could give a single piece of advice to somebody entering the industry, what would it be? Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 32:16

Yeah, I guess be fearless. I mean it it it it you know it's kind of an odd thing to say, but I mean I think you have to ask. You have to ask, you have to um reach out to people, you have to not be afraid to um you know approach those approach those studios. You you have to be uh uh you you you can't you know second guess yourself when it comes to sort of uh giving your agent marching orders. If if if something happens that you don't like, you let the people know, whether it's your agent, whether it's your line producer, where whether it's your broadcast executive, uh simply because I find that if you do that early and often, uh they will respect you for it. And if you don't, uh they will walk all over you.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

Yeah. That's a that's a great piece. I think you know this is the 38th time we've asked someone this question, but that's a great, simple, brave piece of advice that probably needs taking in this industry. So, Joseph Malozzi, thank you very much for being part of our podcast. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02 33:26

Thank you, Joe. I don't think a lot of people realize just how brave they are when they're coming into this field and how brave they can need to continue to be, but they are. We're some of the bravest people there are the writers, the actors, the directors. So much abuse, so much bravery. Thank you for pointing that out.

SPEAKER_03 33:41

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 33:46

Thank you for listening to another one of our fantastic episodes. Yet again, I think you'll find that I ask better questions than Noah. Noah, have you got anything to say?

SPEAKER_02 33:56

Um, as always, uh, since you've done most of the talking, I'm just gonna sit here quietly again.

SPEAKER_01 34:02

Surely there's some people to thank.

SPEAKER_02 34:04

Oh, right, right, right, right. Uh, I would love to thank James Launch for doing all of our outro music. Um, as always, I think we owe a big thank you to both of our wives who support us through this endeavor that started in our basement and seems to be ever growing. And if you want to reach out to either Dan or I, I am at at Nebslin on Twitter. I'm not sure Dan has a Twitter account. Dan, do you have a Twitter account?

SPEAKER_01 34:29

I mean, I I do, but no one cares. All they care about is being on Noah's podcast. So well done, Noah, for conceiving, producing, editing, writing, and asking the best questions of the two of us because you've done all this work and well done you.

SPEAKER_02 34:43

I do think it's worth pointing out after 33 or so episodes that I do both voices. There actually is no damn resting.