Take 5 - Writer and showrunner Sheryl J.Anderson, Sweet Magnolias, Charmed.

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for shore, dozens of unproduced scripts littering the floor.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_03 0:20

For every success, there is months, sometimes even years, all failure. This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

That's the normal to be able to first reveal. Unlike everything in our business, your hands account.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

That process that does that one. I was being told by my manager it's yours to lose. And I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking like, well, that's it for me. I lose my one-bit shot. What I've realized that that will be never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_03 1:03

Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection of failure and adversity in the entertainment industry. Despite how terrible everything is at the moment, I'm still doing incredibly well. Noah, my co-host, I imagine, is doing as badly as ever. Hello, Noah.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Hey Dan, how are you doing? We're here to talk to introduce our new guest uh for the week, someone I'm very excited about, Cheryl Anderson, a noted TV and film writer. She wrote, she's been on T so many uh different TV shows. Going all the way back to uh Charmed, she wrote a lot of TV movies, and she's also created the TV show Ties That Bind, and more recently, the hit TV show TV series on Netflix, Sweet Magnolias. Welcome, Cheryl.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

Thank you so much. It's wonderful to be here.

SPEAKER_03 1:52

So Noah's just read out some of your credits, and they are go back a long way, and there's some very impressive ones in there. So tell us what made you decide that you wanted to be on a podcast about rejection and failure.

SPEAKER_02 2:08

Because I think we tend to gloss over the amount of rejection and quote unquote failure that is a daily ingredient in being a television or film writer. I think that we like the glossy press release version of our careers, uh, which leaves out all the dead projects, the missed pitches, the long stretches without work. And I actually think that's harmful because if you only show people the peaks, then when they get into the business and fall into one of the valleys, they're shocked and they're not prepared. And I think the best thing we can do as a community is come together and explain that the valleys are just as normal as the peaks.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

You use the word uh quote unquote failure. And I want to kind of kind of like drill down on that word a little bit. What does it mean to you uh in the context of what we're talking about?

SPEAKER_02 3:15

I um it's not a word I'm fond of, because it's not an experience I'm fond of, obviously. But I am a big believer in that any experience is only a failure if you fail to learn something from it. And I think that, and this is just my psychology, um, but I think look framing things as failure isn't helpful. Framing things as learning opportunities and whether or not you learned from a particular event or show or relationship. Um, it's more helpful because you aren't looking at it as lost time, you're looking at it as a difficult educational process. Uh I I have been in some famously toxic rooms, and it would be really easy to uh dwell on the negatives of those situations. And I spent my time, but I actually learned an incredible amount from those bad experiences. Uh, even though it was somewhat on the level of, you know, when you're 12 and your parents correct you and you're like, when I have kids, I'm never gonna do that. Uh, I had plenty of those. When I'm a showrunner, I'm never gonna do that. And it's made me a better showrunner.

SPEAKER_03 5:00

So it would be remiss of me as a podcast host for a guest to say famously toxic rooms and then not give a follow-up question, which is Cheryl, tell us about some of these famously toxic rooms, please.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

I um I prefer to change the names to protect the guilty. Um I I've just been in a lot of dysfunctional rooms over the years. And uh, as you graciously pointed out, I have um a wide range of credits, which is a very diplomatic way of pointing out I've been doing this a really long time. And when I started, uh the dynamics were very, very different. I started in Half Hour, where it was very common for there only to be one woman in the room, and uh no nobody, uh I shouldn't say nobody. There was a lack of awareness of how abusive interactions could be, all in the name of a good joke. Um when uh when I moved to our first hour showrunner I met with said, Why do you want to leave half hour? And I said, I want to hang out with a better class of people. And he said, Fair. And it turned out he was a former half hour writer too. But I just I think that again, the important thing is to understand that um let me put it this way. When Noah invited me and said failure, the first thing I thought of was my failures have been moments where I did not push back hard enough, stand up for myself enough, or protect my fellow writers sufficiently. Those moments I will take as failures. And I wish I had done better in those moments.

SPEAKER_03 7:04

So look, I'm I'm conscious as you know, two white male podcast hosts, but you know, that it can be seen as not, you know, maybe how we ask these questions is maybe sort of part of the issue. But that issue around sort of discrimination, so on when you were in rooms where maybe you were the only female in the room and there was bad, or maybe there's only two of you and there was bad behavior going on. Did you uh did you try and speak up and then were silenced, or was it even hard to even say anything?

SPEAKER_02 7:38

Yes. Um, I mean it was it was an educational process for me, it was a growth process for me to uh learn to speak up, um and to let let my skin get thicker and realize that that was um part of the process too. I am by nature a okay people pleaser. Uh I I like to make I'm a peacemaker. I like everybody to get along. And it took me a long time to understand that I was fully within my rights to say I'm done, this behavior is wrong, and that that was also a way to be a peacemaker, not to ease off the fighting, but just to stop it.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

This is this is super interesting to me that um you know, all of this stuff, and you're not the first guest to come on here and talk about these toxic rooms, uh, and it's a become an interesting thing where people are becoming more willing on uh on podcast and also over Twitter to say that you know everything in Hollywood isn't isn't sort of perfect and that we have all these issues that we're that we need to start looking at way more seriously. Was there a time when you sort of said enough and I'm going to start speaking where I felt like I was silent for too long? And I'm not, I'm not, this isn't saying blaming you anyway. I'm just talking about how you said you mentioned that you didn't speak for a while, you were a people pleaser, but it feels like there was a moment that that change occurred where you were willing to say, I think I need to speak up, either for myself or for the people I'm working for and with.

SPEAKER_02 9:34

Um, and it was in a moment where um I saw people around me being hurt more than I was hurt. I mean, earlier in my career, I was like, oh, I guess this is how it is. And as I went along and was fortunate enough to work with good people, I was like, oh, it can be like this. So then as you learn to identify the dynamics in a room, and it also comes with experience because experience gives you confidence, and a lot of it was just my personal growth to be able to go, oh, you know what? It's not always my fault. Uh other people can do things and they're not great, and it's not my fault. So I think it was just a maturation as a human being and as a writer to be able to get to the point and say, This is wrong. And I'm not saying people went, Oh, you're absolutely right. I got a lot of shut up and sit down. But again, your skin gets tougher, your backbone gets a little more steely, and you can keep saying, I'm sorry, this is wrong, and finally somebody's gonna go, all right, what's wrong about it? And sometimes you just have to move on.

SPEAKER_03 11:09

So now you're a show runner. Yes, sir. When you're when your room kicks off, do you set expectations in the room around what sort of behaviors you want to see and not see? Or do you just assume everyone's a grown-up and then stamp things out quickly if you ever have any problems?

SPEAKER_02 11:30

Uh no, I'm uh I'm a mom. So I like expectations to be clear and rules to be clear. But uh both in the room and on set, my first statement is always that I want everyone to feel um heard, safe, and respected. And if you ever feel differently, I don't care who you are and what you're doing, come see me. And if I can't fix it myself, I will help you get it fixed.

SPEAKER_03 12:08

Um Noah, are you about to say that you've been in many rooms where nobody says that before you start?

SPEAKER_00 12:14

You read my you absolutely read my mind. No, I was just thinking how nice this sounds, you know, and and that we normally you, you know, a lot of times you get thrown into a room and you're working with people, and I've been in good rooms and I've been in bad rooms, and they don't have this speech, they don't set expectations this way. And at some point in the middle of the year, you get like a lecture from the HR department on different things, right? Or they'll come in with a sexual harassment thing, or they say our door is always open. But really, you know, you're always so focused on story and feeding the machine that sometimes people get steamrolled. And it's not about your emotions, it's about, you know, this the commerce of it all and keeping things moving. And you need to be tough. And I can only imagine what it was like early on. A lot of it is like boot camp and and drill sergeants, and there's this hierarchy and this this sort of this militarization of a writer's room where you don't always feel so free, um, like Cheryl Saint, to just, you know, no matter who you are, to come open that knock on that door and say, I'm having this issue. But I bet it solves so many problems before they can turn into huge, you know, uh flames on set or in the writer's room.

SPEAKER_02 13:25

I think people do their best work when they're happy. And I mean, I know that sounds simplistic, but I think it's a genuine truth. Uh, I know my I I always try to come from a place of joy, whether we're having a great day or having a terrible day, because sitting and wallowing in the pity of why can't we find this act break isn't helpful. It's like, come on, we're great, we've done good things, we're gonna continue to do things, this one thing isn't going to stop us. Uh, and but again, this is a philosophy that I've cobbled together between here's what I love about the great rooms I've been in, or about the exceptional people that I met in bad rooms. And here are the things from bad rooms that I want to avoid at all cost. And it stuns me that we are in the communication business, and bad communication is a common practice. You need to be able to speak your mind and you need to be able to share. And particularly when you're doing a show like when we're doing Sweet Magnolius, which is all about relationships and interpersonal dynamics and the burdens we carry and how we can encourage each other to lay down those burdens. If people don't feel safe sharing, I'm not gonna hear those great stories where you go, Oh, if we change your aunt's name, can we use that? So I just want people to feel free and and comfortable. And not that there aren't days where people get upset or angry or feel stuck or or whatever, but we're all there to help each other. No one is alone. That that was our motto in Serenity, and that's my motto in the writer's room.

SPEAKER_03 15:41

So here's a question. So I I had Noah on my I have another podcast called United States of Dramerica, and I had Noah on there, and I remember asking him at the beginning of the pandemic if somebody tried to pitch the script of COVID, would anyone would believe it would happen? To which he said, no, it's too unbelievable. If you were to write a story about a writer's room amalgamating maybe all of the different experiences, including these unnamed toxic famous ones, and make a show about it. Are the things that went on so unbelievable that people would watch this and go, this is nonsense, do you think?

SPEAKER_02 16:22

Um I don't think they're unbelievable. Um I think they're that the the bad stuff I think is heartbreaking. Um and we've made progress on that front since I started writing during the Renaissance. Um and I I think that progress has accelerated. Um and I don't think the good things are unbelievable either. I think they just might be less common than they should be. Um, I mean, I I know a lot of people who start off in a rough room and then get in a good room and are like, oh, this is how it's supposed to be. It's like learning to drive with the emergency brake on, and somebody's like, you know what, you can turn that off, and you go, oh, look at how smoothly we go now. Um it's everybody's always learning every day. I learned things between season one and season two of sweet magnolias, uh, you know, different ways to do things. Um I don't ever want to stop learning because I don't want to ever stop becoming a better writer.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

I think I think one of the problems and just in Hollywood in general is the way our system works doesn't always cater to the to the people who are most suited to be the managers managing these huge productions, right? You have creative folk. Sometimes you come from they come from the feature world or novels or somewhere else. They have a great idea, it becomes a TV series, and suddenly they're managing 300 people with no experience at not only managing people, but managing people and at this high level of stress and output, where it's just a never-ending series of questions and fires that need to be put out. And people you kind of begin to show your true colors. And I think that you know, in a way, you know, those that have been in it longer can start to see kind of where the difficulty lays and how to kind of navigate around some of those things because they've been in it for a while. And you kind of joke about being in it from the Renaissance, but that must be really helpful when you're running a room because you've seen so much.

SPEAKER_02 18:45

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And and here's one of the things that I've learned is the world doesn't end if you ask for help. I think an awful lot of people in positions of power feel that asking for help is a sign of weakness and ooh, we can't look weak. Um I like TV because it's collaborative. If I wanted to do everything by myself, I'd go back to writing novels. I like collaborating. I am willing to not have the answer as long as somebody on my team has the answer. And if I don't have the answer, it's my job to listen to everybody on my team and say, well, who does have the answer? Well, I like yours, but oh my gosh, yours is even closer.

SPEAKER_03 19:38

Let me change the pace a bit here. Um Cheryl, what's the funniest rejection that you've ever had in your career? Assuming any were funny.

SPEAKER_02 19:51

I was gonna say, wow, funny rejection. Here, here's the the funniest one um that almost was a rejection, but I think it's a fear we all harbor as writers. Uh, I went to a general at a studio, and the executive welcomed me really effusively. And of course, this was um in my half hour days, and he invited me in, and he was like, I'm so excited to meet you because I gotta tell you, you wrote the best Seinfeld spec I have ever read. And I said, I am so glad to be here. And I've never written a Seinfeld spec. So thank you very much, but you called the wrong person, and I literally stood up to leave. And he was like, wait, wait, wait. And he went to his desk. He was like, Oh my gosh, it's a Larry Sanders. I was like, Okay, then I'll stay. Because that one I wrote. Um, but funny rejection, huh? I genuinely, I genuinely can't think again, this is not exactly what you're looking for, but back in the Renaissance, um, my agent would quite often be told, uh, she's terrific, but we have our girl. And I have to admit that when I was staffing Sweet Magnolia Season One, I was very adamant that I was looking for women, and this one rep would not stop sending me men. And I finally called him and I said, Look, I really appreciate it, but I have my guy. And it only meant something to me, but you know, full circles are beautiful and rare, so I'll take that. One.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

I think you know, I wanna how hard it was for a woman to be in the half hour world, you know, at that time where it was this men's club of you know, and and Adele spoke about it a little bit as well. She wasn't in half hour, but she was sort of early in you know the drama world where it was this a men in many cases a Harvard's men club where they they did have their one woman and Adele would be it sometimes. And it sounds like you were and then the and then the world of half hour comedy where it's this like joke, joke, joke, but not only that, they were worried about having women. This was what they used to say, because they would say things that were sexual and inappropriate, and they didn't want like sensitive ears in the rooms to suddenly be, I can't handle that, which then led to just a lot of probably abuse, which is what you're saying where you kind of were quiet about. Like you had to sort of like many women that I've spoken to that that actually were in those rooms had to sort of outmen the men sometimes. They had to say that we I'm grosser than you, or I'm because I can handle this, and in many ways, none of that would be tolerated sort of anymore today. Thank the Lord. I just noticed today, by the way, uh, the email from the guild that said, no sex toys in a room anymore. Did you see? Did you read the fine print? I think that's what it said. I need to go back. But I said, I think they said they were saying like creating a environment, and there's one of the things that were no longer allowed if you were doing it, was to bring your sex toy to work. So that's that's the world's definitely changing. But we, if we're still at this point, we probably haven't come far enough.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

I was gonna say the fact that they have to say no specifically to that, um you know, the mind, the mind should boggle and yet it does not. Um, I haven't read that email yet. That'll be the first thing I do when our conversation is over.

SPEAKER_03 23:47

When I first asked you why you came on the podcast, you said you talked about the peaks and the troughs and how that people don't recognize outside the industry or people coming into the industry don't recognize that you there's so much of this that goes on. When you started, had anybody warned you, not just about maybe the misogyny and so on, but had anyone warned you that even if you're successful, there'll be a lot of failure and rejection and disappointment and long gaps between jobs and so on, or or not?

SPEAKER_02 24:22

Not really, uh, because I had a couple of friends who had come out here before I did, but they weren't all that far along to be able to give me that much warning. Um and I unfortunately um never had a mentor. So I didn't have somebody who pulled me aside and was like, listen, it won't always be like this, or when it is like this, here are some suggestions. So um, you know, I I have my scars and I have my battle stories. Um, and it's one of the reasons that I mentor now is because I deeply, deeply wish I'd had somebody who I could lean on or at least just call and shriek to. Um and it is it's kind of one of those things where I don't think people understand slash believe us when we say this is hard because everybody wants to hear about the good stuff, which is fair. I mean, every profession is tough. Listen, I'm a military brat, so my worst day is nothing compared to what tens of thousands, if not millions, of uh people go through every day. Um, but I I think there's this starry-eyed expectation that you know at some point it's all going to unfold and be wonderful. And it that's just not how it is. There are moments that are exquisite, there are moments that I can think back on and I still get goosebumps years later because it was just the beauty of half a dozen people coming together in a single moment to solve a huge problem, and you're like, yes, look at us. Um, but really, nobody nobody wants to talk about the months you go without working, the years you go without working, the pilots that you are sure are gonna change your life that never go anywhere, or the ones that at least sell and then wander off their way to dusty death. Uh, you know, though those aren't interesting stories for the most part. Um and so I think even when we share those, people are like, yeah, but it'll be different for me.

SPEAKER_03 27:13

Do you think your this sort of military background is part of your coping mechanism? So when you were getting rejected from things, did you think it could be so much worse because you had that you know knowledge of what's happening in the military, or did you still take particularly your first big rejections just as badly as anybody?

SPEAKER_02 27:34

I used to call them law school episodes because I would sit on the kitchen floor at three o'clock in the morning and weep and wonder if it was too late to go to law school. Um so um the the the military upbringing um has more to do it, it does give me an amazing perspective. Um, you know, when people are like, oh, we're working so hard. I'm like, no, you're not. Um but what what I think about most, my father was a career naval officer, and my father told me two things that I think about almost daily as a television writer. And one of them was never work for a man who doesn't want to go home at night, and the other one was never ask your crew to do a job you're not willing to do yourself. Yeah um so uh there there are, but you know, my my dad was also just an amazing man, and um it's the the faith upbringing that my parents gave me that's equally, if not more, well, I'm not gonna say not more, it is even more valuable to me than my father's attitude toward command.

SPEAKER_03 29:04

Did you ever how close did you get to applying to law school in those moments?

SPEAKER_02 29:13

Um not very but it but it was just you know it was part of the emotional purge. Um because I I gotta tell you, there have been times where I've looked at the bank account and said, I'm being an irresponsible parent. I have to do something different, but I'm not trained to do anything else. So I guess I better take a deep breath and try again. Another thing that my parents taught me was the question was always when I would be frustrated or have failed or been rejected? Did you try your best? And if the answer was I think so, then my father would say, then no man can fault you. But I've internalized that as an adult to I ask myself, when something isn't working, am I doing my best? Probably not. I've probably got another 2%, 10%, whatever. Um, so I just buckle down and try again, whether it's another draft or a completely new script or a different attitude when I go back to the room the next day, um, or a different approach when I circle back around to the network and say, so that thing you wanted us to do that's really not working, can we please talk about that again? Um yeah, it's just take and take a deep breath and try again.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

I think you had referenced that this isn't the military and that people are going through such harder times. And yes, there's so many different jobs where not only the military, but just in life, where people have these really hard jobs that you can't imagine doing and really hard lives. But there's something that makes I think our job unique, uniquely painful, is that we spend months to a year putting our heart on the page for it to be met with sometimes indifference, anger if you didn't execute at a level somebody wanted you to execute to. Uh, it could fall flat, you have to move on, nobody cares. You know, so there's these things where your not only is it your time, but your ego and your sense of self is wrapped up in some of these projects that you're working on. And you have to then, you know, so when you're sitting on the floor debating, you know, should I go to law school? It's also like, am I for me, am I mentally strong enough to always take some of these things and move on? And the answer is you get much better at it. Have you developed sort of coping mechanisms to when when one of your babies just isn't, you know, you have put done your best and you have, you know, you know you put yourself out there and it didn't go your way? Is are there things you do now, later in your career, to help you sort of just move beyond that?

SPEAKER_02 32:25

I I I think I have a three-pronged answer to that. Um, the first pronged being one of my first bosses in entertainment, um, I was blessed to uh work in development for Grant Tinker's company, GTG Entertainment. And my boss, Rob Kaplan, had a phrase that he referred to the black box variables. He would say to be successful in this business means dealing with a lot of variables that you have no control over. So you just have to scoop those up, stick them in a black box, and control the things you can control. Um the second one is that I have learned to stop thinking, ooh, this is the meeting, this is the pitch, this is the show that's going to change everything. It's a progression. It's not um, you know, leapfrog. Um it just takes a lot of pressure off, you know, the the the times where I would stress myself out, you know, just this side of hives before a pitch, because I was like, if I don't get this pitch, then what? Well, then what? I'll come up with another one. Or something else will happen, or you know, a show will come along. I just have to, I have to keep working every day and getting closer and getting better and getting smarter. Um, so this one thing is not the be all end all. And the third thing is that um I am a person of faith. I'm a Lutheran. Um, and it is very much part of my daily process to ask if I am where I should be using the gifts God has given me for his glory and for their best purpose. So when I hit a stumbling point, I have to think, is this because this is part of the process, or is it because I'm going in the wrong direction and I need to step back and put my ego way, way off to the side and just concentrate on the art of it all? Or, you know, what I need to put my ego out of the equation and open myself up to uh to other possibilities. Um my father asked me, um, at what my parents are both gone. Um, but my father asked me when I was going through a particularly difficult time, and you know, he he saw some serious things in the course of his career, and he said to me, I'm not sure how you do what you do, because uh he came from a very orderly universe, and ours is nothing but well-managed chaos a lot of the time, and um he said, Do you think you should still be there? And I told him that it was you know the way my mom and dad raised me. I said, if God wants me to do something else, he needs to speak up because I've been asking him and he hasn't said go yet.

SPEAKER_00 36:19

So I I you you made some you made an offhand comment where the this is the thing that's gonna change everything. And here we are talking about uh on a podcast about rejection and failure, but I want to talk about success for for one second, uh, which we rarely do. In my book, Sweet Magnolias, if you haven't watched it, is one of the best TV shows of 2020. It probably came out a little earlier, but it was one of the best shows that I watched. So I it brought me so much joy in a time where there was so much, there was such a lack of that in the world. And it was a story about a town and and and a family and multiple connected friends, and and you brought so much sort of love and joy to the page, and drama, of course, because it's a drama, but there was just so much to it. Okay, so you you succeeded in the point where you have the show, it's not only on Netflix, but it comes up as you know the top 10 choices for people to watch. I think it was number one or number two in its own algorithm at one point, all the way at the top. That I mean on the streaming platform that at this point everybody's dying to get a show on, right? So it's the top of the top. Has everything changed for you?

SPEAKER_02 37:33

Um no, because I know that's that's a beautiful shining moment that uh I enjoy along with every writer, every cast member, every crew member, every producer and executive associated on the show. I mean, we can all embrace that and be proud of it. And and I have to say, I mean, first of all, thank you very much for the the kind words about the show. But um it was a real blessing to be able to offer people that level of comfort and hope in the the midst of this horrible year. I mean, we we launched in May. Um and but that that timing wasn't mine. Um I mean I'm delighted that we're doing season two. Uh, and I'm very, very excited about uh what else might be in the future. But really what the success of sweet magnolias has done for me is um made me eager to work that much harder and dig that much deeper uh as I move forward. Um so I'm here's what's here's what's changed for me. Um I have been reminded how fortunate I am to know so many talented people. My writers' rooms for both seasons, the the cast, the crew. Uh what what good it does my soul to work with other people who are excited about what they're doing and genuine about it. I mean, I I think there was this perfect storm of kindred spirits every step of the way in Sweet Magnolias. And I genuinely think when people are having a good time doing a show, viewers can tell that.

SPEAKER_03 39:55

Much as I try and avoid talking about success on this podcast, that's such a heartwarming and lovely answer. In as you say, in a year where people needed, you know, actually, frankly, people needed to work in a nice place and people needed to watch a nice thing. So that is um that is a great story. And um so thank you for sharing that. And Noah doesn't often say he likes things to our guests, that feels too easy.

SPEAKER_02 40:20

Um, I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_03 40:23

Um so look, our last question. And I'm looking forward to this answer because you you think about these things obviously a lot, is if you were giving advice to somebody thinking about entering the industry, what single piece of advice would you give them?

SPEAKER_02 40:40

Patience is a virtue. I think a lot of I mean, I I'll just speak to the writing process. I think a lot of newer writers get in their own way by being impatient. Uh, they've written what they believe is a brilliant script, and it's the first draft, and they think that's gonna open every door that needs to be opened, and they're gonna be able to access all the connections that they want to. And you know, there are those marvelous success stories slash myths. I mean, I I've often told people when you read it's her first script, it's her first script that's sold. I bet there are some others on the hard drive somewhere. Um but I think that people get impatient and they rush to get their work out in public um and it's not ready. Um I have people that I've worked with who won't take the time to rewrite and it holds them back as writers. Um, some of them never get started as writers because they won't rewrite. So patience both in understanding that taking a couple of years to get started is nothing. Um, but also patience with the process, understanding your first draft isn't going to be perfect, that there are going to be days where you write 10 pages and the next day you will delete nine. Patience with the fact that it is going to take finally getting up and walking the dog for that missing piece of the story to come to you. And it's okay. I mean, there's an actual like mind-body thing that happens. All my best ideas come to me in the shower to the point where I contend I should take my hot water bill as a business expense. But um, we need to be patient with ourselves as creative people. And um, I don't think it hurts to be patient with other people in the community because we all have bad days. But if you're fortunate enough to be having a good day, the grace you can offer somebody who's having a bad day is a priceless gift.

unknown 43:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:20

Brilliant. Cheryl, thank you so much for this. Extraordinary levels of insight and honesty and great advice. I can safely say if I actually wanted to work in your world, which I don't, I would want to be in your writing room.

SPEAKER_02 43:36

Well, I appreciate that more than I can say. And you're always welcome to come visit once we're like back in a real room.

SPEAKER_03 43:44

Yeah, and I'll bring snacks, but no sex toys, I promise.

SPEAKER_02 43:48

Perfect. Perfect.

SPEAKER_00 43:51

Thank you so much, Cheryl. This has been such a pleasure to chat with you for a little while. And you gave us, you know, so much to put out into the world. So we're we're super appreciative.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

I appreciate that. Noah, it's always great to talk to you. So uh thank thanks for the invitation, both of you, and uh stay safe and stay well.

SPEAKER_00 44:10

All right, that's a wrap on this episode. If you want to leave us any feedback, go to hollywoodabyss.com.

SPEAKER_03 44:16

And if you'd like to subscribe, we won't stop you. And if you want to leave a review, we certainly won't stop you. In fact, we'll be incredibly grateful.

SPEAKER_00 44:23

And we have a couple of thank yous before we go completely. We want to thank James Launch for the intro and outro music. We want to thank both our wives who allowed us to hide in our respective basements while we record all of these interviews.

SPEAKER_03 44:36

If you want to find us on Twitter and join in the conversation, I'm at Dan Rutstein, and Noah is at N Ebslin. Please come and find us, please say hello, and if you really want to, please give Noah a job.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

Yes, I am looking for a job of any sort. I can polish shoes, I can write copy, I can even be in a writer's room. So if that's the case, feel free to reach out.

SPEAKER_03 44:58

But you definitely can't podcast.

SPEAKER_00 45:00

I definitely this is not the thing that I do well.