Take 34 - Special Episode - Screenwriter Noah Evslin - with guest co-host Paul Bae

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for sure, dozens of unproduced scripts literature.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

That's the thing we have to be able to force your beautiful. Like everything in our business, here can't get out.

SPEAKER_04 0:43

I was being told by my manager it's yours to lose. And I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking like, well, that's it for me. I blew my one big shot. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. This is the most special of special episodes because my usual co-host is switching from the co-host seat to the being interviewed seat. So I know a lot of people don't enjoy Noah's questions anyway, so this is perfect because he's now just going to be answering questions. But obviously, I need another co-host because I need somebody to be a little bit mean to. And so I'm beyond delighted to have a man joining me as a co-host who is the creator of the world's most successful scripted podcast, and a man who also has two real projects in development in Hollywood at the moment as a real writer, one of them with Amazon. Welcome to the podcast, co-host for today, Paul Bay.

SPEAKER_03 1:59

Thank you for having me. Uh it's a pleasure to be here. I'm glad you picked uh uh you thought you thought, let's have someone I could be mean to who won't take things personally. Uh and you picked the Korean guy. So uh that's that's wonderful. Uh I would like to introduce our very special guest uh who's never sat in the guest chair on this very special podcast. Uh he is a producer on Scandal, Grey's Anatomy, uh Private Practice, The Catch, and How to Get Away with Murder, uh, before segueing to a full-time writer on such shows as Colony, Hawaii 5 0, and more recently, NCIS Hawaii. He's a lovely guy on Twitter, uh, even with the mustache. He's also has a feature in development at Warner Brothers. So please welcome to the guest chair, Noah Evslin.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

I gotta say, this is a bit weird to be sitting on the other side of the seat, so to speak. But thank you, Paul. Uh, thank you for the great introduction. And I do want to add before we jump into it that Paul's podcasts are named In the Loop and Black Tapes, go check them out. Get that right? The the big loop. The big loop. I always get the thing. The big loop and black tapes, go check them out.

SPEAKER_03 2:59

It's not it's not a real screaming into the Hollywood Abyss question until Noah uh uh screws up the intro for one of the guests. So this is good. And I sound like Dan doing that. Picking on you already. We can't have two Danes.

SPEAKER_02 3:11

An extraordinary level of failure by Noah. So even when he's not introducing things, he gets things wrong. Um interesting though, his introduction was perfect, not least because he wrote it and made sure Paul said all the nice things about it. So I guess so. Look, this is interesting. Because obviously, Noah and I have sat together talking to real luminaries of Hollywood about what they've been through. And Noah joins in with Colour telling his stories of things that happened to him. But obviously, he's quite frankly had enough rejection and failure to be a guest on his own. So I think what place will start is. So now everyone knows about the time uh you pitched and somebody fell asleep because you've told that story at least three times now in different podcasts. But beyond that one, what's your next best rejection anecdote?

SPEAKER_01 4:01

I was uh hired to write a TV show set in Spain with uh A-list director. They proceeded to fly me to Madrid and Abiza for three weeks, I think, to break a story with producers and the director's person and this whole team. We traveled all around to get background information. Um, meanwhile, my wife was nine months pregnant with our young, what's going to be our youngest son, what was going to be our youngest son, what is our youngest son now. And uh so I went on the trip by myself and we came up with this amazing story. I thought everyone approved everything all along the way very enthusiastically. I went off to came back to Los Angeles, started to write the outline. The night before, and this was a very gridded thrill, gritty thriller, which it was supposed to be. The night before I turned it in, the A-list director called me and said that he was thinking about our project. And is there any way that it could be supernatural on some level? And this is about as far away from a supernatural project as you know you could write. And but this is the director. The idea had kind of started with him. And so I'm like, you know, the outline is due tomorrow. Do you want to give me more time? He's like, no, no, just think of something, a tie-in. Like, let's just let's start small. I I love the story you guys are telling, just a little bit of supernatural. Okay, I write my outline, I I I turn it in, my baby's born, or I think somewhere in this, the baby's born, like, or maybe the baby was born a week before, and I had to write the outline, you know, while not sleeping, turn it in. Crickets, just nothing from none of the producers. And and and people who, you know, when you're in the business, when you don't hear anything, almost always it's bad news. Like when there's just silence from the other side, but not always, sometimes sometimes they're just super busy. Anyways, long story short, two weeks go by, finally they call me, they schedule a call with the producers, and they let me go. And they're like, the story wasn't what we wanted it to be. And I'm like, but we all signed, I broke it with all of your producers and you. Like, where in this did I go wrong? And they're like, Yeah, we're just actually going uh in a different direction. And it and then they basically hung up on me and we couldn't get any clarity on what just happened. I'm like, was the outline terrible? Was it that bad that I just got let go? Like, like this. Turns out it took me years to find out that their writer that they had originally wanted had become available and wasn't available. I spent maybe three years just thinking I had whiffed so badly that they spent thousands to send me to Spain and they just hated what I ended up doing. But it turned out, you know, a shinier writer wasn't available, it became available, and they just unceremoniously booted me off the project. That was the one that probably hurt the most.

SPEAKER_03 6:58

So our listeners can't see us, obviously, on the Zoom, but but my jaw is on my desk right now, listening to that. And as someone new to the industry who's just breaking in and someone who's experienced a lot of personal life failures, but not industry failures of that level. So this is educational for me. Um, how did you do you remember how you dealt with that? Like, are we talking like a week to shake it off or a month? Like, how did you how did you overcome that to have the courage to sit sit down and build yourself up to write the next thing, like to move on from that?

SPEAKER_01 7:27

You know, I remember the moment after sort of just shaking, like just sitting there shaking, going, what just happened? I was so not prepared, even though I kind of mentally the alarm bells were ringing when I didn't hear anything, not prepared for that call. And it it gets even worse because we had we had sold it to a major studio. That studio didn't cut the deal fast enough. So I brought in a studio I had worked with in the past. My people who fired me, who also were on the same page. I mean the director had a lot of clout. So and and and it, I guess later on I found out I created all of this like implosion in these offices because I had traveled to Spain with people I had become friends with who fought this tooth and nail, and nobody could tell me the truth of what happened. But it took me a long time. I I don't think I fully recovered until I finally heard years later what the real story was. It just was like I just thought I wasn't good enough.

SPEAKER_02 8:21

A question though that you often ask guests is you say something along the lines of, you know, you've got an amazing resume, you've done these amazing credits, and yet you then struggle to get work. How does that feel? I guess I want to ask you that because we've known each other for I think it's three or four years now, and uh, you know, within like a couple of minutes of meeting you, you started telling me, you know, what an amazing writer you were and all these fantastic projects. But you know, you you told me about because obviously you used to work in the Shonda Rhimes stable as a writer, but also as a producer. So you worked on shows that I've heard of, and we've discussed in this podcast. I don't watch as much TV as maybe other people, but you know, everyone's heard of Grey's Anatomy, which must be one of the most successful and long-running TV shows here. Private practice, how to get with murder, you've been part of that stable. You know, you even got invited to a Star Wars premiere because you did some work around that. Like you're you're sort of legit, and yet since I've known you, you've barely worked. Um so how does how do you go from doing all those Shonda shows and being attached to somebody so successful to long periods of being out of work? And how do you deal with that and walking around saying, I used to be, you know, a Shonda guy and now I'm not working?

SPEAKER_03 9:39

Or to rephrase that question, how do you go from Shonda land to doing a podcast with Dan?

SPEAKER_01 9:45

Is it that was my big fall from Grace? Uh there's a few questions in that, and let me start with the first one, which was switching. I was a producer for Shonda. I was, I was one, her, there was her partner, Betsy, and then myself. And I can't go into a lot of details on that because there's all kinds of NDAs, but you know, it was an amazing job. But I came to Hollywood to be become a writer, and and I was a writer, and I had sold maybe three or four pilots while working there. And it was only when I got a staff job offer where I couldn't actually work there as a producer, sell my pilots. It was a great gig to do both. I had to make a choice. And I had I had said to my wife, you know, we had long talks about this because it was much scarier to be a writer than a producer on four to five shows and getting paid a producer fee on every, you know, we were doing well. And but we didn't come to Hollywood to climb that ladder, right? I was climbing the wrong ladder and I was climbing it. I mean, I was going up and I could have spent my whole life as a non-writing producer. In fact, I was, we were doing, I was in charge of digital, social. So there was writing, directing, producing. I was just about to start directing episodic television uh when I got the staff offer and I had moved to Hollywood to be a writer. So I we we we gave that up. I went over to Colony. Uh Colony ended. I I met I met you, Dan, I think after Colony ended, but before I started to work on Hawaii 5.0. So I had sold, uh, I had sold at that second, right before I met you, I think, and we've known each other for a number of years, uh, a series to Amazon. So in that period of time, I was working on a series I sold, a limited series I sold to Amazon. That was my paycheck coming off of the colony. Uh, and I had sold one other pilot and the Spain thing that we were talking about. So even though I wasn't on a show, I had work. I had work to do, things I was getting paid for. And I think, you know, once I went through those assignments, let's say four months of work, there was probably four months of no work, no paid work when you knew me. Uh, and that's development time. I mean, we have to write new specs. We gotta create pitches. I think I created a number of pitches that didn't sell or whatever happened, even though I was coming off a handful of sales. Then I went on Hawaii 5.0, and then Hawaii 5.0 series ended. And then there was really the last year uh that we knew each other when we started this podcast heading into the pandemic. There was uh I had sold a feature right off of uh leaving Hawaii 5.0. So that was kind of paying our bills, and that's great. That's nothing to you know to sneeze at. I got really lucky. But you turn all those things in and you have no idea what's coming next. So I had six months in the pandemic when we moved back to Hawaii, where we were just starting this podcast where I've all, like McDonald said, I have these credits, but you honestly don't know if you're ever gonna work again, which is the thing that is so scary in Hollywood. You just don't know, you know, am I gonna sell a pitch? Am I I was writing a feature, I really liked it. I wrote a few things I loved, and we were getting no traction. There was just the weirdest time come mid-pandemic when people weren't buying and people didn't want to hear pitches and like you weren't sure if it was you or if it was the business or staffing just could came to a complete stop. And I got I gotta say, like, like I'd love to say like it was my amazing writing abilities and all of that, but the job I got right now, NCIS Hawaii, you know, I was a very specific person for a very specific job because I I'm from Hawaii and one of the few writers from Hawaii that have these credits. And I got lucky. You know, you just luck plays a role. And if I, you know, who knows where I'd be, and hopefully I have a couple projects that would have that would have sold, but maybe not. And that and that's really scary.

SPEAKER_03 13:27

Uh Noah, what I when I again, when when when I was breaking in, you're one of the first professional working writers to privately reach out to me on DM and Twitter to help me out with a question I sort of voiced on Twitter. And it was very, very specific. It was a lovely thing to do. I'm gonna go anti-dan on this one, but it was a very lovely thing for you to do. And I was very encouraged by it. You sort of said you're one of the few that helped set the tone. Oh, this is what the industry is. Now, does that come from a sense of I've succeeded, so I'm gonna share, or does that come from a sense of more, um, I failed so much, I know what it's like to be out there. Like, where does that come from? Because you reach you you basically jumped into my DMs just to help me unsolicited, and it was so helpful because I wouldn't have I wouldn't have asked anybody directly.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

You know, I think because I've been, I now feel like I've been in the industry a long time. I've been here, I've been in there for 13 years. And I I I've worked both as a producer on the development side, on the producing side, and as a writer on the other side. So I don't know if my opinions are valuable, to be honest. Like I've learned that everybody's nobody knows anything, right? We all give this advice, and there's the issue why there's so many debates on Twitter is the advice to one person might be the wrong advice to somebody else because the industry is constantly moving around. But there are some practical things, and I noticed that you know, you there was something about the way you posted and the and your honesty that was, I'll be honest, was attractive to me in a in a in a friendship kind of way. And I said, I like the way this person presents himself, and this is a question I can answer. And I think, you know, something we don't talk about either is I spent years as a teacher. You know, I taught at I taught history at the college level, and I've taught secondary and I've taught in middle school. So I think sometimes you also click into that mode where it's like as a teacher, I knew the answer to something that I could help someone real easily. And I, and you know, people still ask me questions and I'll try to answer them. And I think the podcast also was to sort of uh scratch that itch of like there are there are things we can tell people, but I don't feel like I'm an expert, so to speak, maybe you know, mildly. And that's why we bring on people like the people we do who are experts, who I can ask questions and sort of you know, sort of figure out my way to this business as well.

SPEAKER_02 15:40

I mean, yeah, I think obviously you are a bit of a rejection expert. And I and actually I'm not being mean now. Um I mean, obviously you've been through it a bit, but I think because of the way you operate on social media, plus obviously now doing this podcast, you've got insights into other people's failure and rejection in a in a slightly different way. I mean, look, I've never worked in in Hollywood. You know, I've got the looks and so on, but I've just never managed to break into Hollywood. But I feel like I know I know disproportionately more than I should because I've had the privilege of sharing both what we record on podcasts, but also the conversations we have around them with people about the ridiculous rejections and failures that happen in this industry. Talking of which, actually, Paul uh hasn't yet qualified for this podcast as a guest, but he qualified because he likes whiskey for my other podcast. And we've talked a bit about rejection and failure on that one. And a couple of things happened to you, Paul, which are fascinating. I mean, one's just sort of straight up funny. So I want you to tell it, which is the um when you interviewed for uh the interview um in your best Korean and ended up being caught out because you cheated a little bit. But the more important story is your stand-up comedy gig, which ended with people refusing to sit next to you. So if you don't mind telling those couple of stories just for a sense of of what rejection looks like as an actor, but then also on the sort of comedy side.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

As always, before Paul jumps in, I want to qualify Dan's meanness. I've been trying to get Paul on as a guest for months. And he says that he doesn't, he hasn't earned a spot yet. He has a certain career things he wants to jump through. He has the number one scripted podcast in the world. Like, if that can't get onto our podcast, then we we have no we have no qualifications to get on. But please go on, Paul.

SPEAKER_03 17:34

Thanks, Noah. Uh the I I felt like I didn't qualify yet and I didn't want to jinx future success by talking about Hollywood failures when I hadn't got the Hollywood success to bounce it out. Uh, if it was a podcast show about podcasts, sure. But uh oh yeah, Dan, to your point about the quick story about the interview. Um, I had retired from acting and then I was focusing on comedy and teaching and whatever would pay the bills, and then and then um I heard from my agent Seth Rogan wanted Korean people for his movie, The Interview. So I I don't know Korean. So my dad translated the English script into Korean, I memorized it, I walked in, I had it perfect. I walked in, and then I halfway through I could see how much the people in there were enjoying it, and I got carried away and I forgot the lines. So I started, I just started reciting Korean menu items. Like, you know, like in a really bad, bad uh uh um uh uh Korean accent. And then um after I got off, my agent calls me. I heard you I heard you rocked it. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I let me know if they say anything else. And then he calls me two days later. He goes, Yeah, you got the part, but not that one. You're you're the other guy with as much screen time but fewer words. What did you do? And I had to tell him, yeah, yeah, I guess I gave it to a translator, figured out my bullshit. But um, yeah, that was a fun experience. But um the the Hollywood failure is uh when I was a comedian in 2004, I was I was killing it. I was doing really well. Then I got invited down to LA by a bunch of people. Um uh there was a very hip comedy uh scene in LA, an indie comedy scene. And and Scott Ackerman, David Cross, Odin Kirk, they ran this uh this weekly indie bar called uh Comedy Death Ray at M Bar in Hollywood. And they invited me down to to do a set as as a as the one guest spot that week. And I was on with Chris Hardwick, Gred Proops, Patton Oswald, a whole bunch of people in 2004. And at the same time, um uh the Tonight Show invited me to do an audition because they were interested in having me up that week. So I go down and my set sucked so bad that you know one of those things where on a train, a public train, people put their purse or their bag or their like dudes put their knapsack down so you won't sit next to them. It felt like that whole thing. Uh and when I tried to find a seat, no one wanted to sit next to the guy who screwed who stunk it up that bad. Um, I knew there was a big manager, I won't say his name. He was supposed to be there. I knew he was there and he wouldn't return my texts or my calls the next day. Um, I got uninvited by the tonight show. Uh, I had a general with NBC, I guess they heard about it, and they just sort of like, oh yeah, and it went nowhere, of course. I wasn't ready. And I came back up to Canada and I just forgot it. I'm like, okay, Hollywood's dead to me. It's not happening. So in tw in 2018 uh or 2017, when I went back down uh with black tapes in hand, and NBC bought it in the room that day, it was a nice little uh uh uh closing of that circle for me.

SPEAKER_02 20:25

And what's fascinating is you know, obviously, particularly because you've now had success, it's easy to laugh about it. But the fact that you it says a lot about the way the world works. That they invite you down, you know, literally from another country, you you fly in because they think you're something, and then you end up not being quite the thing they thought. And rather than sort of very politely saying you're not quite the thing we thought, they just basically start shunning you in the same way that you know Noah got shifted off his project because somebody found somebody shinier for him. It just it all feels uh very mean, but uh you you persisted, and it's it's worked for you, Paul, in the sense that you've got now, you know, a couple of shows uh sold, but you could very easily have given up, presumably.

SPEAKER_03 21:14

I I didn't really persist, I sort of just went back and just went to my day job of teaching and just kept writing in my spare time because I loved writing. That's the thing that gave me joy. Uh teaching too. So I just made sure my life was balanced that way. I ended up marrying a woman who who was brilliant and and and believed in my writing. And so when we got to a point where the black tapes had some success and we moved houses, uh, my wife and I had opened up a small business together and she actually brought it to me. She said, You listen, we you you don't have to teach, you know, we actually make enough that you could just devote full time to your podcast. Maybe something will come from that. And you could quit teaching. And that made a huge difference. And then that's when sort of everything sort of took off. Uh, because you know, you when you when you don't have a day job, uh especially something. Like teaching, where it takes up you know 10 hours a day, um, and it and the kids aren't exhausting my brain every day. Um, I could devote to the script. So that really that really opened it up for me. Um, that was sort of the difference. I don't I it's not like I persisted. I had a lot of help uh along the way. Um, I think that really helps.

SPEAKER_02 22:17

It's interesting because one of the things we talk about a lot on the podcast is people how close they got to giving up and going back to something else and having safety nets. I guess you had a safety net in the sense that you could you could take the risk of not having a day job and pursuing it. I guess for you now, and I'm not sure I've ever asked you this, um, but you know, theoretically, you know, you well, not theoretically, you were a teacher in the past. Um, I know you were a DJ as well. How did you were there any times when things weren't going well and your English friends were being mean to you that you thought maybe I should give up and try something else or go back to Hawaii?

SPEAKER_01 22:55

Before I answer that, I do want to say something about Paul's story, Paul. That um your post about that, you you tell the story as a humorous story about the the the you know about failing you know in this huge crowd and this huge opportunity. But then you wrote that really heartfelt post about what it, the the emotional and psychological toll it took on you and and how you overcame it. And and I think you know, it's posts like that that inspire me to keep doing this podcast and also to be as open as I am, because I feel like if it just helps one person out there get through a dark period of like, you know, you're going through something hard, then then it's then it's totally worthwhile, right? Um, as for your second question, Dan, the moment I give in to uh you know a second career is the moment that you're beginning the process of leaving Hollywood in my head. It's the moment like you're like beginning to entertain that there is anything else out there. Now that's the idealistic answer. The practical answer is no, we've never fully thought about moving back to Hawaii, although there's a lot of pressure to do so. And you know, there's a world in which we did, if I could write from there, which at this moment I probably could, um, but our home is in LA right now. No, the what I have begun to do is diversify a little bit, which is, you know, I've started to, I have a children's book coming out this year. I'm working on a book of Greek of Hawaiian mythology with my wife. I'm, you know, never going to fully uh focus on Hollywood having to pay all the bills because there are times in which you just don't get uh any money. Uh, I'm also working on a few uh sort of screenwriter tools that we'll keep under wraps for now. But I've seen little holes and opportunities that only, you know, because I've been in the industry as long as I have at this point, that might be sort of profitable and super helpful if we begin to sort of plug these holes. So those are kind of things that I'm working on. But right, you know, right now I'm on a show, and that takes 150% of all my of my time.

SPEAKER_03 24:52

Um, that's that's amazing to hear that, uh, especially how you link it to the podcast, which is linked to my next question. Um, you guys have both passed the 30 episode mark of your series, of this series. Uh, you've got over 30 shows. You started this December 2020, uh, and you've steadily grown, and this has become an inspiration for a lot of people. So I sort of want to turn the tables on actually both of you, you included, Dan. Um I want to ask both of you uh what is your uh what is your assessment of this show so far? And by that what I mean like personally, what does it what does it do for you um to you know to interview these guests who talk about their failures and you're doing it not for money? Uh noah, I see you doing, I could see, I could understand where you want to do it for other writers, but Dan, you're not a writer in Hollywood. So why do you want to do this? Like what keeps you going except for an excuse to uh connect with Noah and make fun of him?

SPEAKER_02 25:49

Yeah, well, I mean, that's a huge motivation for me. But of course, I think it's a good question. Well, I think it's it's an interesting one for me. I mean, I have been, I've got a couple of other podcasts, and I I like podcasting. And when Noah came up with the idea for this, part of particularly because at the time he was, and I know we argue about what not working looks like, but he was not working in my eyes. I think he was probably, you know, he's pitching things, but with my eyes, he did not have a job. Um, and I did think, because I have used other podcasts as a business development tool. I used it when I ran a technology company. I used it a bit for my football team. And there's a part of me that genuinely altruistically, I thought, no, it doesn't have a podcast, but he knows the industry. If we do this, it might actually help him with his networking within the industry. Now, he wasn't doing it for that reason, but I sort of thought it might help him. But to be honest, I think for me, the whole rejection theme is uh is much deeper than Hollywood. Now, obviously, our guests are all Hollywood, and I think a lot of our listeners are from the writing world, but I know I've got friends of mine who are not in this world who listen for the general themes about rejection, failure, how you deal with these things. And, you know, I the I guess the most professional rejection I've ever had, because I not like you guys, where you sort of get fired regularly and get turned down for jobs regularly, I'm not from that world. But you know, I lost my I got made redundant last year for the first time, and I struggled a bit with my sort of my identity around losing my job stroke career. So for me, even though by the time we started this, I was already starting down my new path, you know, working for a sports team. Thinking about rejection and failure and understanding how different people deal with it was a subject I was really interested in. So, you know, obviously I sort of like the Hollywood backdrop to this, but I I like the human stories of how people deal with this stuff. Um and the most interesting parts of this are the the real story, not the context. So the Jeffrey Lieber episode where he wrote Lost, but he didn't write Lost, and how he dealt with being attached to a success that wasn't really his. You know, obviously the fact is lost is fascinating because it's a show I've watched, but it's it's a human thing that can happen in many other ways, and how you're part of that. So I think I I've enjoyed exploring that part of it and meeting some fascinating people as part of it. But I do think we're helping people in in some way in the industry, but also maybe beyond. And so I think for me, that's a big part of this is you know, telling human stories of overcoming failure is a real motivation to do this. And you know, a chance to sort of gently mock people, both guests and co-hosts along the way, is just an added bonus.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

I think, I think, you know, that's a I'm gonna compliment Dan, so that's a great answer, which is something that I rarely will say, uh at least publicly. Uh, you know, Dan and I get a thrill from this podcast. You know, and and when we in a thrill like a very visceral, like we we record it once, you know, once a week or however often we're we're we're you know getting guests uh speaking to them, and we talk and we tell these stories. And I think afterwards Dan and I will normally like decompress for five minutes or so and we'll talk. And just like we're always so fascinated by the stories that we hear on the podcast. And we obviously we like that it's finding an audience, but it really and it's about that. I'm not gonna lie, we we're we're we're not doing it in a vacuum so nobody listens, but it doesn't really matter to us, I think, if we have a hundred listeners or five thousand listeners. It's that we're affecting, we get DMs, we get tweeted out, we're getting that we're affecting one person, three people. Like, like that feels good, that they that they got something from the podcast, and that we, I got something from the podcast with these fascinating people who have come on and have told these stories. And we've had some like, you know, unfortunately, some of the most uh memorable stuff on our podcast is often before or after we record, because some of the stories we can't quite get into and we can't quite tell. And we've also been there for like big moments in people's careers. Like we got uh Melissa London Hilfers on write us, her show was being greenlit. And I can't remember if we brought it up in the episode, but she was like riding on a cloud on that episode where this was the the her dreams had just come true. So a podcast about failure, but this is someone who is succeeding at the highest level and is beginning this great journey. And then on the flip side, we've had a few people on. I'm not gonna name them by name to embarrass them, but who I know came onto our podcast second after news of huge, of huge quote unquote failures, big projects that didn't move forward. And they're like emotionally processing that they're not gonna have this job or the thing they worked on for years while they're trying to tell these stories of you know other failures and other rejections. And it's and we get, you know, unfortunately, we we never, you know, we're not a podcast and go hours, but by the second half of each of our episodes, I'm finding, and and and you know, Dan and I are learning how to do this as we go along, but like we're getting to the heart of people's, you know, emotions and and the things they're really feeling when they're writing. And and we're not all about sadness and despair, but like this is a hard business and like it takes a toll on people. And I'm interested about that dark night of the soul. But what I'm really interested in is how did they come back? That right, this isn't about staying in those depths, it's about overcoming. And we are a unique breed of human being, writers and actors and directors and creative people. We can pat ourselves on the back and when we allow allow ourselves to be punched in the face, and we get up for more. And that's that not that many people can do that, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:00

And I think it's interesting that the podcast in itself is a bit of an allegory around the writing industry. So some people, Paul, have 53 million downloads for their podcast, and you know, that is extraordinary. Other people, us, have got downloads in the tens of thousands. Now, as you know, if you look at the podcast statistics, we're in the sort of top three or four percent of podcasts, because most don't make it to 30 episodes and are listened to by 14 people, half of which are friends and relatives. You know, we're a legitimate podcast, but we're not, we're not making money, but we're not in the once you go into the top 1%, that's when you get into the hundreds of thousands, or in your case, literally millions. But we keep going because we believe in what we're doing, we think it's helping. We think we've got, in our own way, a story to tell. I mean, it's other people's story that we're telling, but we're persevering. So we're like low to mid-level writers who've got one credit, but we're going to keep writing because we think we might get on a show one day. Um, and in some ways, just by keeping going without becoming multimillionaires as a result of this, it sort of works better. If we became too successful, I'm not sure it would work as well. If we started having loads of sponsors on here, I think it would actually detract from the story a little bit and be much less authentic. Because that's not, that's not what this. Not that I'm knocking you for you know having sponsors. Someone's got to pay for your expensive whiskey collection. But it's, I think it's a it's a it's a different approach for what we're trying to do.

SPEAKER_03 33:36

Can I can I ask you guys, um, especially you know, it's as you're experiencing all the success like right now, is that how you think about it? Like this, this is like when people talk about you, when I was reading out your credits, um, it's it's it do you get that endorphin hit? Like uh and you and do while you get that hit, do you realize do you feel that anxiety about, yeah, how long is this gonna last? Because uh, like you know, a lot of us writers are crew, we we work off of hyperbole from other people. Like, for example, when you introduced me and said I've got the biggest audio fiction in the world, I let that slide because it though knowing that there's others bigger than ours, right? Like we're alive and welcome to Nightville, but it felt great hearing it. And but it lasts about 30 seconds, and I'm like, yeah, when's my next one? Um, do you do you feel that all the time? Like just like at your back?

SPEAKER_01 34:24

You know, I've I've had some major life events recently that that we're not gonna go into here, but it's it's really helped me put my life in perspective and and find a lot of joy in the things that I'm doing. And uh it's grounded me in this moment of like, I'm on a show I love. You know, I'm really enjoying this this process. Now, will I be on the show next year? Will there be a show next year? There's no way to know. And I was so focused for most of my career on what comes next, on getting a green light, sell, you know, I was like, I'm gonna be happy when I sell a feature. I sold a feature. I'm like, am I happy? I'm gonna be happy when I staff. I staff. Am I happy? You know, like like am I any happier? Like you said, you we we so quickly go back to the equilibrium of just anxiety, hard work, looking for the next thing. And I told myself, you know, there has been a number of sort of metamorphoses for me and catalysts for me this year, but you know, COVID and going back to Hawaii and finding my own roots and my family's roots and my wife's family's roots and really trying to enjoy moments more with my family, with my kids, with my wife, with my job, and just a, you know, I don't swear as you know as often as Dan does, but this is fucking awesome, right? I mean, like this is the dream, and there's gonna be crappy days. They're not gonna like something I write, my pitch won't land, the studio, blah, blah, blah, the production, but whatever. Like, this is great. Like, like, like we get to do the thing that we dreamed about doing, you know, before we came here. And it it could all go away, but I'm no longer going to focus on that fear because living in the moment is better. Now it's it's it's not always easy to do, and there's bad days and good days, but it really has been helpful as I segue, maybe hopefully into like a second part of my career where maybe it's it's a little easier, who knows? It could be harder to enjoy it and just be happy with with what I what with with the things I have.

SPEAKER_03 36:23

And does it get easier? I'm asking for you know, for our listeners and for myself, like does it get easier when you hit those hurdles that you know I'm about I'm about to hit a failure. This is this project is not gonna go. Does it get easier or does it hurt the same every time?

SPEAKER_01 36:37

I think the pain is the same, sometimes more because the stakes are higher, meaning like if you know, the the the thing, you know, if I sold a pilot in the beginning of my career, I'll make X amount. If I and I had no expectation that thing was ever gonna get made. If I sell a pilot now, maybe there's some hope that it will get made, and and and you know, and you and so the pain and you put more into it and you get more, and the pain is more. But for sure, there's moments where you feel like, you know, like as you go deeper into your career, where you you can't really skate on your credits ever, but they help, right? They this this is you know, as you go from room to room to room, you're not the first person just sort of trying to break down that door over and over and over again. However, it's always hard, right? There's no, you know, you might have an easy few months, you might have an easy few years where you go from, you know, a show begets another show, begets another show, and then you're shocked to find out the phone stopped ringing, and you have no idea why. So that those are the things you've always got to keep going and doing.

SPEAKER_02 37:36

So we're we've not got an enormous amount of time left. I've got one question for Paul, and then we'll have to wrap with a question for Noah. So I guess obviously you've been you're breaking into Hollywood in a remarkable way. And I know you're too humble to sort of say you deserve to be on our podcast, and you you're you're a genuinely humble person, but I know talking to Noah and other people, we've talked about you a few, you've been name-checked on a podcast a couple of times, and definitely off-camera we talk about you a bit. And everyone's very impressed about how you've made this transition and the things you're doing are very impressive. I guess a question to you is do you realize what you've achieved? So the fact that you've got shows coming with some incredible collaborators, like, do you see that as success yet? Or are you comparing yourself to John Rogers and other people saying, well, I'm not there yet?

SPEAKER_03 38:32

Uh both both. I do compare myself uh uh aspirationally uh to to Noah and then everyone like of John to Steve Knight, I to everyone who's been on your show, I'm like, I I can't wait to get there. But the goal has always been to make a for me make a living from writing, because writing brings me joy, and just to have and the overall picture is to live a life filled with joy. That's been the goal for decades. And knowing that writing is a part of that, and if I can make a living from the thing that brings me joy, that was the goal. And now that I've hit it, because I've gotten very lucky that I I I'm I'm I'm entering at a later age because I'm a late bloomer, I was pretty not too bright, even just 10 years ago. And so because I I I'm approaching things in a lot in a smarter way than I would have in my late 30s, um I've been able to uh jump on opportunities uh in a in a smart way. And it it's it's from people like you guys share providing opportunities to share this stuff, and I I I I I I take on that wisdom. Um so yeah, I I I I do see what's happening to me, and I'm very, I feel very, very fortunate. Uh, but but it's it's now the goal is to get something produced. And so I got a new goal, but it's it's more like one of those goals like I hope. Like I know how how much of a lottery it is. Uh so just that's all I can do.

SPEAKER_02 39:51

Yeah. So look, sign for the last question. Noah knows what it is because he asks it most of the time. So, Noah, what single piece of advice would you give to somebody wanting to enter this industry?

SPEAKER_01 40:03

You know, I just really what Paul just said really kind of stuck with me because it's a theme of what I have been saying for the last few minutes, but also the way I've really adjusted my approach to Hollywood. And it is finding the joy, finding the joy in what you do. Because whether you're aspiring or you've made it, a lot of what we do is is is is we're in the grind, right? We're writing, we're we're we're typing, we're facing a blank page day in and day out, and it's it's hard. And some people don't like it. And I'm not knocking people who don't like it because there's some people who love having written, and there's some people who love writing, but you have to find the joy in what you're doing, aspiring pro otherwise, or you really have to begin to ask yourself, why are you doing it? Because it used to be a lottery. We talk about a lottery, it's a lottery in the chances that you think might get made. There's a lottery, but there really used to be another lottery, which is you sell a spec, you're gonna make a million dollars or whatever. Those days are gone. So, really, what it is is do you have joy in telling these kinds of stories? And I see a lot of people on Twitter and otherwise saying, Well, I'm gonna give up, I'm gonna stop doing this, I'm I'm, you know, it's too hard. And then they have another idea and they write another script. And those are the people that I really think are on the right track because you have to have this thing inside you, this compulsion to keep going. Otherwise, I swear to God, do anything else because it's it's the ups and downs. I mean, it's a great life, but it's so hard to maintain. And if you're not finding the joy, you really should be, you know, in another field.

SPEAKER_02 41:39

Yeah, very good. So look, now Ev Slin, thank you for being a guest, Paul Bay. Thank you very much for being co-host. Listeners, if you want Paul to just be the co-host going forward, I'm very comfortable switching. So please just send us some tweets to that effect and we'll move forward. But thank you both for being part of the podcast. Thanks, fellas. Thanks. Thank you for listening to another one of our fantastic episodes. Yet again, I think you'll find that I ask better questions than Noah. Noah, have you got anything to say?

SPEAKER_01 42:17

Um, as always, uh, since you've done most of the talking, I'm just gonna sit here quietly again.

SPEAKER_02 42:22

Surely there's some people to thank.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

Oh, right, right, right, right. Uh, I would love to thank James Launch for doing all of our outro music. Um, as always, I think we owe a big thank you to both of our wives who support us through this endeavor that started in our basement and seems to be ever growing. And if you want to reach out to either Dan or I, I am at at at and Evslin on Twitter. I'm not sure Dan has a Twitter account. Dan, do you have a Twitter account?

SPEAKER_02 42:49

I mean, I I do, but no one cares. All they care about is being on Noah's podcast. So well done, Noah, for conceiving, producing, editing, writing, and asking the best questions of the two of us because you've done all this work and well done you.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

I do think it's worth pointing out after 33 or so episodes that I do both voices. There actually is no damn red steam. Wanka!