Take 27 - Show creator Melissa London Hilfers, Monarch

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for sure, dozens of unproduced scripts littering the boy.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

For every success, there is sometimes even years. This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

Like everything in our business, you're gonna have to account.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

I was being told by my manager yours to lose. And I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking like, well, that's it for me. I blew my one big shot. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss of podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. I am non-entertainment co-host Dan Rutstein, and we have on the other bit of the Zoom Noah. Hey Noah.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

Hey Dan, how are you doing today? Uh I am thrilled. I'm super excited to have screenwriter, TV writer, uh, and screen feature writer Melissa London Hilfers on our podcast today. Melissa burst into the scene in 2018 with a splashy spec stale of an original screenplay called Undone. She was then hired to remake Jagged Edge before pivoting to TV and selling Monarch, a show set in the world of country music, to Fox, which I'm very excited about is going to air this fall. Welcome, Melissa.

SPEAKER_03 1:47

Winter. January 30th, 2022. That's winter, right? That's not fall.

unknown 1:55

No.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

Oh, sorry.

SPEAKER_03 1:57

But thank you, and I'm so happy to be here.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

I I regularly screw up the intro in one way or the other. Your show, Monarch, is going to air this winter.

SPEAKER_03 2:06

Yes, I want everyone to put it on their calendars.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

So I wonder it would be really easy to re-edit these and just have Noah come across that he knows what he's doing. But on a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity, Noah making mistakes seems entirely appropriate. So as long as people know when it's coming out, that's the most important thing. Right. Well, look, obviously, welcome to the podcast. I'm particularly pleased to have somebody with London in their name as a British person. So let's get into this. In a previous life, you were an attorney. So did you fail at being a lawyer or did you just choose to pivot into the world of writing?

SPEAKER_03 2:42

That is a great question. And it is very formative to what I've dealt with since I pivoted to writing. I did not fail as a lawyer. I was very successful as a lawyer. And the thing about being a lawyer, unlike being a professional writer for television and film, is that if you are talented and you work really hard, you will be successful. You can go, you can get really great grades in college and you go to the best law school. And you can get really great grades in law school and you get hired by the best law firm in America. And you're you work harder than anybody else and you get assigned to the best partner in all the best cases. And all of those things happened for me. And then by because I'm a complete fool, I changed my mind and decided I wanted to write for television and film.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

That is absolutely fascinating because we've had other people come on who've done other things before. So we had somebody who was a journalist who talked about he learnt about he was prepared for failure in TV and writing, because in journalism you're often stuck with the same things. So actually, being in a grown-up industry with a real meritocracy and normal HR systems and normal hierarchies, this world, which I find so fascinating because I'm not from it, and I was in government, which is the same sort of thing. So does that mean you are more surprised when things go in wrong directions because you expect people to grow up, or because you're from a grown-up profession, you're you maybe deal with it better because you understand how things should work.

SPEAKER_03 4:22

I think it kind of cuts both ways. And it and there's another layer to it, which is you know, I became a lawyer because I have this really intense sense of justice and fairness. Um, and I always want to speak out for people who aren't represented and and and all that. So, like, take someone who who believes in fairness and it has been in this meritocratic situation and has been very successful, and throw them into Hollywood. Um, and it's I think I was woefully unprepared emotionally for the amount of failure and the relentlessness of the failure that I would face. Because um, when I first got into it, I so here here's the the backstory, which I imagine you would have asked at some point because I listen to all the I listen to the podcast all the time, and everybody gets into their origin story. Um I had three kids. I had um a little baby and was on maternity leave because another great thing about law firms is they give you paid maternity leave. That's awesome. Um, although the guild has been working on leave, and we did get some advances in the last negotiation, so that's good. Um, but I was on maternity leave and I had an idea for a movie. And I thought, okay, I've got whatever it was, 10 weeks or six weeks, I'll just get the song, you know, what's final draft? I'll get that and I'll write the movie. Um, and I did it with like truly a baby in my lap um and a couple other kids running around. And um it was so fun. And I sat there like with a grin on my face the whole time just doing it and thinking this is just like a fun thing I'm gonna do, and then go back to the law firm. And um at the end of it, I thought, like, I think this might, as probably everyone does, whether or not it's good. Oh, I think this might actually be good. And by the way, I love doing it. Um, so I had a friend who had worked as an assistant in the industry, and I had her read it, and she's a good enough friend that I felt like she would tell me, you know, like if this is a hobby or if this is like really something that I should be doing. And she said, No, I think you should, if you really want to do this, I think you could do it. Um, and so I never went back to the law firm. Um, and that project, which became a failure, um did eventually sell, but it's it was a feature film and it sold to USA Network as a movie for television because Target, the store, wanted to invest in doing movies for TV on set, like a Saturday night date night in. This God, it might have been like before there was Netflix. It was like 12, 10 years ago or something like that. Um, I guess it was Netflix 10 years ago, right, guys? Sure. But it wasn't like it is now where you have 10 different services and stuff. So anyway, um, Target got hacked and they fired their CEO and they decided they were not after I did all the development and like Jessica Beal was attached, and it was super exciting. Um, so I got super, super excited, and then like this random fluke thing happened and it was just dead.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

That's great. I like, I think we'll add this to the list of strange ways people have lost projects. So a company being hacked and somebody being fired is new, I think, for us, along with a whole load of other crazy reasons. So I guess if you were to meet up with some of your ex-law firm friends, you know, at a fancy restaurant, probably paid for by them on expenses because you know that's what lawyers do. And they sit around and they're talking about their cases, and then they say, you know, how's it going with you? And you're like, well, you know, here's some ridiculous things, like that story, for example, and God knows how many other stories you've got around that. Do they do they believe you that your world is so ridiculous?

SPEAKER_03 7:58

Um they do believe it. I think until just recently. I mean, I've been working and a paid screenwriter for a decade. Um, so by my measures, successful in the sense that I was making a living at it, but every single project died, every single one or went dormant or whatever. Um, I sold four spec features and every single one of them, um, although there's an asterisk because one of them it seems like is might get made now, which is great. Um, but I think what they thought was that I was just full of I can curse on this podcast. I've definitely heard people curse on this podcast. Yeah, I that I was full of shit. Uh I listen with my kids in the car, so I uh whatever people's kids can hear the word shit and know that I'm a wild lady. Um but uh but uh I think that they thought I was just like this sad person who like used to be a successful lawyer and now like wrote things and claimed to have all these stories and you know, things fall that were always mysteriously falling through. Um I will say like a story that has a famous actor in it would go a long way. So like I, you know, as you do, I a bunch of famous actors have worked on my stuff at various points, all the projects that that ultimately died. Um, and you know, one story about like Halle Berry or Octavia Spencer or whatever, and then they like, then you've got them. Um, but there's a lot of, you know, what have you what have you, what have I seen? And there's still not I there's nothing you've seen, nothing. There will be January 30th, 2022. But until then, um 12 years of really, really working very, very hard and nothing. So not like I was a lawyer and I like saved people from death row, or you know, clients won billions of dollars because of me, or you know, I did the merger of Amazon and MGM or whatever, like nothing to show for it, other than you know, making a living and feeling fulfilled in some ways creatively.

SPEAKER_02 9:57

Uh first off, I just want to say that I have very mixed feelings about you selling your first spec screenplay that you wrote while you had a baby in your lap. On one level, I I on a professional jealousy level, I I hate that you are able to do that because it takes such a level of talent. But on an inspirational level, to those you know who tune into this thing, you can sell your first screenplay. You gotta you gotta be kick-ass, you gotta be do an amazing job. But it is possible for your dreams to start coming true based on the very first time you put words to paper to do this. However, you have to have a lot of history behind you, probably to get there. Is that fair to say?

SPEAKER_03 10:34

To be fair, I rewrote that thing a million times. So what the version that just like came out of me did not sell in that incarnation. And actually, it didn't even get me reps. So I wrote that one, and um and that friend of mine called someone she knew who was a rep, and he said, a manager, and he said, You've got something you should keep writing, but if this isn't the one, do write another one. Um, so I set it aside and I wrote another one. That one was bad, nothing ever happened with that one. I'm just remembering memory. There's like, you know, tons of carcasses of dead crappy scripts, you know, littering my back corners of my mind, but that one wasn't good. And then I wrote a third one um that was really fun and is the one that I think actually might that now has director attached and just got financing. Um, this was probably 2012. Yeah, 2012. Um, and he said, I'll this is great, I'll represent you. Uh he's still my manager now. Um, but then that first one kept coming back to me. Like I kept thinking, like, I have unfinished business with that one. Um, and so whenever I had downtime, I would rewrite it and think about it and noodle on it. And um, and it that it did, it did eventually sell.

SPEAKER_02 11:53

So this, you know, I'm thinking about, you know, the normal backup plan system in Hollywood, where you go into Hollywood and you you decide you're gonna do this thing, and you're constantly getting pressure from your parents. Like, are you sure you want to do this thing? Why don't you become a lawyer instead? Why don't you do anything instead? Now you've already been a lawyer. So you your backup plan was already your your primary plan to start with. You left that behind. I'm trying to get into your psyche with your parents because we all deal with this, or your family, or your loved ones going, you left this lucrative thing behind. And yes, you had a couple quick sales, but I'm sure there were fallow periods. What happens in the minds of those who love you who are going, Melissa, are you crazy?

unknown 12:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:43

Or are they fully supportive?

SPEAKER_03 12:45

Yeah. Um, well, there are a couple different layers. The parents, my husband has always been phenomenally supportive, and that is amazing. And I know you guys thank your wives, and I will thank my husband right now because he's been incredible, continues to be incredible. Um, even though he's a total realist and at the very beginning, sort of said, you know, this probably won't work out. Um, not because I don't think we're talented, but like it does, you know, it's just statistically, it's probably not gonna work out, but like I'm here for you. Um, which of course then I was like, fuck yeah, well, you know, like then I knew I had to do it. Um, but my parents were a whole different story. Um, yes, they they were thrilled that I had gone to college and law school and was a lawyer at this big firm. Um, and had kids, you know, like I was sort of like doing it all from what parents would want. Um, and they didn't really say it, but I'm sure they were horrified. Um, I will tell you that my mom said, What big sale was that? I had the one that you mentioned in 2018, the big like splashy spec sale. Um, my mom that was undone, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so my mom that happened and it was like in deadline. Like my picture was in deadline, and she took me to lunch and she took my hands and she goes, Thank God this happened before you turned 40. So it's like she said it all, like there it all is. Um, and then of course, that series of failures we'll talk about. Um, you know, that was very exciting and got a lot of attention. And you haven't seen that movie. Um so she was disappointed again when that fell apart and the next one sold. Um, yeah, I mean, I think I was a big I think it was a big disappointment. But they know that I I mean I told them I love it. You know, like how do you say to your kid who says, like, I'm actually doing the thing that I really truly love, like, don't do that thing. So they didn't say it, but I do think they were thinking it for sure.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

On January the 30th.

SPEAKER_03 14:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

When your show premieres. What's that gonna be like in the sense of I guess this is I often fall into the trap of um suggesting people might be meaner than they actually are. But is that the day you're like I'm really what an amazing day, or is this the one where you like send messages to people and go, Well, I told you I was better than you thought I was? What like how will that play out?

SPEAKER_03 15:13

It's such a good question. So that's gonna be a very happy day. Um, don't worry, I won't disappoint you though, I am mean. Um, that's gonna be a very happy day. And I said we had some friends over for dinner for the first time this past weekend, first time we've entertained in like a year and a half, and really good friends who've been so supportive throughout all of it. And uh, she's an my friend is an actor, so she knows what the business is like and how brutal it is and how hard I've worked, and she's just genuinely proud, just as a as a friend. And um, I said, You guys will come over for the premiere, right? And she goes, Melissa, I think they're gonna have something for you. Like, I apparently it's like a thing. She, you know, um, so it will be a happy day. It will be a happy day, and honestly, most days since we got the pickup, which was like two weeks ago or something, have been happy days. They're hectic and crazy, and there's plenty of stuff that's frustrating. But um, I am oh, and this I don't want to foreshadow my advice at the end of the podcast, but um, but I it's very important to me that I enjoy this because it's been hard, really, really hard and um demoralizing and emotional. And um one one story I really wanted to remember to tell you because it totally encapsulates for me sort of what the podcast is about, and because I can speak today from a hap from a happy place, um, so I won't depress people out there. Um so Undone was a spec, an original spec that I wrote and I sold to a team that I really liked and really enjoyed working with and continue to um have a great relationship with the studio and develop with them. Um, but there came a time when they attached a director to that project, an Oscar-winning fancy fancy director, um, who, you know, and Noah, this may ring true to you. I got a call that was like, he wants to bring in his own guy to do a polish. Okay. And my team was like, that's fine, that's normal. Um, so I didn't hear anything. And then of course they like, can we send it to us in final draft? It's like, no, I cannot. I will send you only PDFs. You have to type it from one letter to get my, you know, pride from my cold dead hands. But um, so I get this call a couple months later. I the the they were in touch with me and they told me who the guys was hiring and what they were doing, and but in very vague terms, and everybody kept using the word polish. So this writer reaches out to me and he said, Hey, I'm the writer who got hired. And I've done this because I have also rewritten other people, and it's you know, you feel shitty on some level about it. But it's not like I went in and was like, hey, you should re you should get that script rewritten and I'm the woman to do it. It's like it was an assignment. This the script was going to get rewritten, and I, you know, um, but anyway, I always reach out to the writer and tell them how much I love their work, and that's the reason I wanted to do it, and all that. Um, so this guy says, like, you want to meet for coffee, uh, you know, I'm rewriting you. And I went to meet him for coffee, and he I don't want to shit talk another writer. So I have very little to say about that coffee. But he couldn't bring himself to say anything nice about the script. And I said, How's it going? And he said, Well, you know, it's a page one. So I didn't cry, but I finished my coffee very quickly, and that night, a very close friend of mine, a dear, dear friend whose husband is a um writer, but a like a really successful writer who's sort of been through all of it. So my point is she really gets the emotional ups and downs. We were in the back of an Uber going to something together. I was in LA. So the other thing is I live in New York, so when I go to LA for work, I'm like footloose and fancy free, no kids, because they're in New York. So I get to like actually go see friends and stuff. So um, this is in the before times, of course. Um, so we were in the back of an Uber, and I remember her saying to the guy, um, just keep driving around. I I might cry now. I I said, I said to her, Heidi. Um he said it's a page of one. Look, you can see you guys can see, they can see me for people listening. I don't know if you know we're on a Zoom and they can we can see each other. They're both wearing hats and gray t-shirts. Um, I'm demystifying your podcast for people. Um, but I'm I'm tearing up. You can see it. And this was years ago, and I've obviously had a lot of stuff since. Um, it broke my heart. And I was crying and crying, and she totally got it. And she just hugged me and had the guy drive around. I think she must have been paying for the Uber because I would have made him pull over and let us out. But um, but it was heartbreaking. And manager said, um, if they're really doing the page one, it's not gonna work out. They like this script, they're gonna hire you back. And it happened. The director ended up leaving the project, um, and they brought me back to do more passes. And it still didn't end up happening, but not because of yeah, it was um, sorry, that was so rambling. No, that's the more you asked me. But it was, but I want to tell the story because it was it was the nadir of my um, it was the depths of despair of my feeling broken by the process because it was a script that I had put everything into and I loved, and there was a bidding war, and it got my picture in the paper, and it actually made my mother proud of me. Um, and this other writer like looked me in the face and was like, it's a page one. And I just felt like everyone lied to me, you know, sucked.

SPEAKER_02 20:36

I I do want to say, uh, and I might get some flack for this. I think there's a flaw in our system that we have for rewrites, in which there's a financial incentive for people to completely rewrite you more than 50%, not just fix it and make it good for screen. There's an actual humongous financial incentive for them to be the credited writer, which means they have to take you off the page, which is heartbreaking. It's a writer doing it to another writer. I wish, and I'm not an expert on this, I didn't want to go into the weeds on this, but that there's a would be a better system for that, that you wouldn't go into your situation as a, you know, in to have someone tell you your face, I'm completely rewriting you, both mostly because they then get credit, which then leads to back end and residual.

SPEAKER_03 21:21

In fairness to that guy, whose name can never be discovered because it was never, he didn't last long enough to, you know, even I think hand in a draft. I don't think he ever handed the draft. I do think in that case the director just wanted. So I ended up at some point when I was brought back, they were like, meet with the guy in London. Oh, look, we said London again. Um, and so I went to his like super fancy club in London, and he, you know, basically said he just he likes legal thrillers and he like here was a legal thriller, and he thought this could be his version of a legal thriller. Like, so I don't even think there was anything about it that he wanted to do. Um, he just wanted to do a legal, like a movie, and there was like words on a page. So he so, in fairness to the writer, I mean the guy was a total douche when we met, so I don't give him too much credit, but I don't know that that incentive was at play there. I think he was being told by the director some like crazy new movie that he wanted to do. Um and in fairness, I think the studio was like, no, we kind of like the movie that we bought. That's not gonna work. Um, but I I totally agree with you that there's not just a financial incentive, but a career incentive to change the to get a credit, to get your name on the movie. Because if this was an original spec, if it's an original, you're right, it has to be over 50% rewritten. If it's based on underlying material, it's 30, 30 or 33%, a third of the movie has to be rewritten in order for them to get a credit. So it is, and I I mean, I just I think I once tweeted like the hottest spots in hell are are reserved for those who, when rewriting someone, intentionally changes the names. Because that's a trick, is like they change the names of the characters because then it's not even the characters from the other person. It's like, you know, it used to be John Smith and now it's Bill, whatever. And the studio doesn't care. Like they don't care what the character's name is. Um, so yeah, that's that's shady, and I I really it burns me up.

SPEAKER_02 23:12

I I I'm not trying to to make you cry, but I want to go back to I cry easily.

SPEAKER_03 23:17

You'll you'll see.

SPEAKER_02 23:18

I want to uh I I want to take us back to the moment where you had the person in the car and you had that person who you were able to cry to and and get emotional to, and just maybe not talk about the specific specifics there because you talked about it, but the importance of having uh a support system in this town, somebody that you can rely on and lean on. And I've noticed, you know, you and I know each other um off of this, but I've noticed that you are extremely supportive on social media of up-and-coming writers, of you have decided to some degree, consciously or unconsciously, I am going to be the person who supports other people. Was that intentional? Was that a reflection of the people that have been there for you in these hard times?

SPEAKER_03 24:02

Yes, thank you, first of all, for um for noticing that. Um, but yes, it's a conscious decision and it is both a reflection of people who have and people who haven't. Um, I didn't come up with, at least I wasn't on Twitter. Maybe this was all going on. I didn't really have a roadmap. Um, and I live in New York, I don't live in LA where like all your friends are writers and stuff. Um and my husband is incredible and super supportive, but doesn't know how this path is supposed to go, and also is a lawyer, so is steeped in that meritocratic, you know. If you do it right, I don't understand why you're not successful. You work really hard and the script seem good to me, you know. Like, um, so yes, I do feel like I just want to help people. Like, honestly, if it were like I just want to hug everyone and be like, it is really, really hard. Um, and sometimes I want to say, like, it might not be for you, which is it is not for everyone. Like, I am really, really, in spite of the easily crying, I'm pretty tough. Um, and I can take a lot. And um, I see like you see this, no, like the right, you're both on Twitter, the writers on Twitter, um, you know, like, oh, today I got a pass on whatever, and they're like all worked up. And I'm like, dude, like that's like barely a Tuesday, you know, like you gotta toughen up. Um, but at the same time, I also think it's important for people to see that, you know, I was over 30 when I started and I was coming from a different career, and I didn't really have an in to the business. Um, you know, I I I obviously now have friends in the business because I've been around. Um, but um, but I want people to see that it can be done if you if you work really, really hard and you tell the stories that you need to tell and don't just try to like be a flash of the pan. So that's I mean, I think that I guess that answers the question. I I do really care about it and I do want people to feel not alone in doing it. It's lonely, especially screenwriting, because you're doing movies, you're kind of by yourself, and then there's like the studio and um producers, and they're your team, but they're also sort of adversary. Like it's a very complicated, not like when you're a lawyer, when it's like there's one side and there's another and it's very clear. Um, this is you know, very mixed motives on everybody's part, even though everybody wants the project to work out well. Um, TV is a little bit different because it's more collaborative in the, you know, in an obvious way.

SPEAKER_00 26:39

So I'm gonna ask a question about motivation because we've often asked guests, you know, what would you do if you weren't a writer? And they come back with various hilarious answers about they've got no skill set beyond the one that they've got, so they're just gonna keep doing it.

SPEAKER_03 26:56

Hop star. I can't think of that, that's a problem.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

You were obviously successful in another career. Um you're doing this. What what is the thing that makes what what gives you your sense of happiness? Is it knowing that you've managed to succeed in something else? Is it you know we've used this word quite a lot, but is it like writing your soul? Is it choosing to do a non-linear career and succeeding? Like what is it that gets you out of bed in the morning and makes you feel happy when you go to bed at night?

SPEAKER_03 27:37

That is such a great question. Um I do really love the actual writing. Like I do still, even now, sitting at the computer, come up with a clever line and have a smile or a twist or something, and like I fucking smile all day long because it's so fun. Um but I wish validation didn't matter at all. I wish it didn't, because I wrote a movie that was writing my soul. I know you guys talk about that, and I and I have one project. I mean, I love I love all of them, but this was a um a historical project about someone who was really wronged in her life, and I rightly or wrongly like took on like someone needs to speak for her because no one ever did while she was alive, like all this stupid, um, overblown stuff in my own head. But um, I really thought I got the script right, and I really was proud of what I did. Um, and I remember reading it and going, like sometimes you read something and that you wrote and you can't believe you wrote it. Like you don't know how that came out of you. And I remember reading that script. Um, it's called Unfit. I remember reading it and being so proud of myself that I did that, and and not even believing that I did it. Like I still sometimes read that script and don't believe I did it. Um, however, so I was really happy, but that lasts like a day or two, you know? And then you're like, no one's ever gonna know that I did this. No one's ever, and why do I care? It shouldn't matter. And it's so funny because um with the announcement and the um pickup of my show a couple weeks ago, everybody, oh, that reminds me of that mean side of me I was gonna tell you about. You asked me, and I only told you nice stuff. I'll tell you the mean thing, don't let me forget. Um, about like, you know, on the day that it comes out, am I gonna like be mean to people and stuff? Um but so um people were calling and congratulating and and being really nice and being great. And my sister, who has been with me every step of the way, um, called and said, I'm so proud of you. And because it's my sister, you can really say what you're thinking. And I was like, don't be proud of me now. Be proud of me when I did it. Like, be proud of me that I wrote it. Not that someone is, you know, making it, which is totally ridiculous. She was just being nice to me, but it's my sister, and you're allowed to be, you know, an asshole to your sister because they have to love you. Um, but um, but I I really go back and forth about that. I want to only care that I did it, um, but I don't. I really, really care that both that people know I did it. This is horrible to admit, that but that people know that I did it and that people will see it.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

So normally in the podcast, the way it works, I ask questions from a position of no knowledge, and Noah gives lots of colour about like being a writer because he is one. But I'm gonna add some colour here because I I'm not trying to compare myself with you because I'm not a successful writer in any means, but I'm somebody from another career who wrote something. So I did the whole, you know, I wrote a screenplay when I left the diplomatic service about life in the diplomatic service. Um and when I finished writing it, because I'd never written one before, I was incredibly proud of myself. And obviously, I tried to ship it around a bit, it didn't go anywhere because it wasn't actually very good. Um, and then I got another job, and then that was it. But I found it the other day and reread it and very good, which is not unexpected. But there was a couple of bits in it which are, I think, are brilliant and very funny. And I can't remember writing them, and therefore I'm particularly proud of myself. And it's quite exciting. Uh maybe the writers don't get this bit, but when you did something else, like you were good at a real job, no offense, but you know, you were good at a real job in a real career, and then you just like try this and you actually you're really good at it. I think you get a different sense of achievement than if you were actually always a writer.

SPEAKER_03 31:27

Maybe, maybe. Um I you know it is something that's hard to be good at, you know, and it's you know what I think it is, Dan, is it's so um it's so personal. Like the other careers that you and I had, and and being a lawyer and and your job as well, maybe it was personal, like I represented clients and I cared what happened to them. But writing is is bearing yourself, you know, and so you're you're putting yourself out there and you're you know, people think anybody could do it, people think anybody can tell a story, but it's not true. It's really, really hard. And so if you can do it in a way that you feel like, wow, I really got across that thing that was in me, I really got it out and and articulated it well. Um, it's a different kind of pride than like, oh, I did my job today, you know.

SPEAKER_00 32:22

Obviously, assuming you were a above average lawyer, in New York, there are, I don't know, how many hundreds of above average lawyers, and and plenty of below average ones, but you know, there was lots of people doing what you did successfully, however successful you were, there are a lot. But writing, there's not many, and the tail is a lot longer and the pyramid is a lot wider. So I guess the question is, are you a better writer than you are lawyer?

SPEAKER_03 32:48

Ooh, um, okay, so so writer, do you mean like putting words on a page and actually writing a script? Or like the whole career, which involves all this other like business crazy stuff? Because I have issues of at every level that I need to work on. Um, management I'm working on, you know, um poker face on notes calls kind of things I'm working on. Um but writing, I think I, I mean, I think I was a good lawyer, but I wasn't, I never got that far. I didn't I didn't ever get a chance to put into being a lawyer what I have put into being a writer. I have there's that like that 10,000 hours thing from the Malcolm Gladwell book. Um, I definitely think I've put in the 10,000 hours sitting and writing pages. Um I never, as a lawyer, you're doing, you know, you're making your bones, like you're reviewing documents, you're doing all these other things. Um, you're not like in a courtroom for 10,000 hours. So I never got to get that good at it. It's it's really fun. I mean, there's things about it I miss, but um I don't know how to answer that. Um wait, I'll tell you the mean thing, just because I don't want to forget. And and I feel like I'm coming off like so Pollyanna, and people who know me will listen and go, oh yeah, she's not that nice. Um the day it came out, oh, should I say this? The day, the day the announcement came out about Monarch, um, I posted on social media, and I gotta say, like everybody you know, including like those girls who were mean to you and made fun of your clothes, will tell you how great it is and act like they were your best friend. That felt good.

SPEAKER_00 34:26

Oh, interesting. So that felt good.

SPEAKER_03 34:28

Yeah. And I of course liked their little post, you know, like, oh, amazing, Melissa. It's like, oh yeah, remember when you like used to like push me off the school bus and say that my, you know, Sergio Valente jeans were tacky. I have a fucking show on Fox.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

But you didn't you didn't actually go back and say, oh, okay. So now I liked it.

SPEAKER_03 34:46

I hit a like or I did a smiley face or a heart because I'm, you know, I'm only I'm only mean in front of all of your listeners, not in front of the people that I actually know.

SPEAKER_02 34:56

Go ahead. I I I think there's this misconception, and that we're trying this this podcast is doing a good job clearing that up, that it's all that this is a glamorous business, that it's really easy for those at the top, that everyone's having um, you know, the huge parties, lots of celebrities, the writing is easy, everything's gravy. And I think as we begin to tell these stories and collect them really, which is what this podcast is becoming, a collection of stories that people are realizing that it's that it's that it's harder uh for everyone, including them, us, the whole world. But you know, I've been thinking lately about the nature of the guests we've had on and and the stories that they've been telling. And I've been realizing that some of the problems that, you know, even in this world where where things are changing really fast and and the sands are shifting for everyone, that the rejection, adversity, and failure stories that the men tell are different. They're just it's just a different world than the rejection, failure, and adversity stories that that women face, that people who are diverse face, that there's all this different levels of adversity. And that that that that that while it might be really hard for some people, it's extraordinarily hard for others. Do you do you think it's getting better? What what's what's kind of like do you do you worry about this ever, this, this, this, the nature of this business? Do you think that we're gonna get to a place where it's maybe easier that people aren't going through such trying times? And some of these things, by the way, we can't talk about on this podcast. They're they're too personal and they're too emotional, but but they're out there and they're real.

SPEAKER_03 36:33

Yeah, it's a great question. And and Noah's being very um respectful, but I mean, there are I have actual horror stories that I told them I can't tell on this podcast, but they haven't. Um I do think it's getting better in the sense that there's an awareness of how different it is for different groups to find their way in the room. Um, however, I also feel like there's a look, I mean, I think that when the decision makers at the top are a complete mix of everybody, things will be different. Um, but I think there's still a very predominant group that are the deciders. And, you know, those people are still gonna, when I push back on something, think I'm difficult because I'm a woman and I sound like a harpy when I say no to a note. Whereas if you know one of you guys said it, they might feel differently. Um, I'm sure they pick on you for something else, don't get me wrong. I don't think it's easy for anybody. Um, but there are certain things that um, you know, you get on a Zoom with 10 people and you're doing a thing, and someone stops the Zoom to go, wait a minute, everybody, look at Melissa's lips. Melissa's wearing lip gloss today. Melissa never wears lip gloss, like that happened to me. And it was with very senior people. Um and I felt like shit because that person has just, I won't say consciously or unconsciously because that person knew what he was doing, but has just completely demeaned everything I'm saying down to like some stupid physical attribute. Um, and how do you recover from that when you're trying to pitch something? You know what I mean? Like that's just hard to, it's like it's gross. And now, some people it just rolls off them. Um I try to be someone that lets things roll off, and you'd think, like, I'm a grown-up, I have three kids, I used to be a lawyer, um, but it's still it's it's hurtful. And I and I will also say at law firms, that doesn't happen, or at least it didn't where I was at the level that I was at, but people they because they're smarter than that. They know that you can't do that. Um and I think there's still um a lot of that that goes on, even with the increased awareness since you know the Me Too movement. Um, I will say just in terms of diversity, you know, I'm now gonna be for the second time staffing um a room and hiring people. And when someone like me is the show creator, I will be very conscious to make sure that like every voice is represented as best I can. And all my friends feel that. So I just did this awesome um WGA showrunner training program. Um, it's a fantastic program. And I wish I had a picture of the class because it's like the most beautifully diverse group of mostly women. Um, you know, and and we have become such a support system for each other. And whenever these things come up for people, and they always do, we we are there for each other. And on the last day of the class, everybody kind of went, I hate this kind of stuff. I hate when they make you like go around the room in front of a lot of people and like say some, you know, brilliant thought at the end. But I just said, like, look at this. This is the future of television, and it's fucking beautiful, you know. Like, if that's true, um there's hope that things are gonna get better for everybody, I think.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

You said something interesting about that when you were a lawyer, the sort of thing that happened with the lip gloss wouldn't have happened because they're smarter than know better. And it's no, it's interesting because you know, when I was in government, uh people were very well behaved. And when I moved into the private sector, like a few times in meetings at various companies I've worked at, I've had to say you're not allowed to say that anymore. Um, and you know, that's the British polite way of saying you're not allowed to say that. Yeah, and I because you've come from that background, obviously, part of the reason lawyers don't say, even if they secretly think it, and maybe say it when you're not in the room, they know they can't say it because somebody will sue them. Like it's pretty obvious in that in that world, particularly. But because you've come from a world where A, everyone's afraid of suing each other, but also, you know, there's proper HR, there is proper systems, proper processes, proper hierarchies, and you've been part of that world. When you're in this world where most of those things don't exist, and even if the show running training, well, the fact they'll have it now is a big step forward, I think, from where things used to be, but it's probably still not there's probably still things in there which managers and leaders should be told that you would be told if you're in a law firm. Does that make you are you sort of more acutely aware of what's going on around it and feel the need to step in on behalf of lots of people, particularly now you're more senior, or do you deliberately hold yourself back because you don't want to sound like the person who said, Well, when I was in my law firm, we're not allowed to do those sorts of things? So which way do you fall?

SPEAKER_03 41:37

Yeah, I think not relating to where I am in the industry or whatever, I think just because of who I am and that I'm the kind of person who like cares about justice and wanted to speak out for people, I'm always gonna be that person who, you know, will jump in and start um telling people how they should not be acting, um, which is not always a good thing when you're trying to come up in the business. Sometimes you really need to kind of keep your mouth shut. Not if something really awful is happening, of course, then you should always speak up. But um, but no, so I don't know that it's because I was a lawyer, but I think it's because of the person that I was that made me become a lawyer that makes me want to do that. Um yeah, I think I think that's my answer.

SPEAKER_02 42:23

Well, well, this is this takes us to the part of the podcast, which which, as someone who's listened to the podcast, you have a good idea of what's coming, but I'm gonna say it anyways. What advice would you give to an aspiring screenwriter, TV writer, or both who are come who is coming into this business?

SPEAKER_03 42:41

I emailed myself. I have three things. One of them is it's is something that you say. So it's the last one is sort of a throwaway because like it's something that Noah says. But um, okay, so my first thing is this is advice that I wish someone had told me. Um, it is don't write the thing that you think people want to buy. Write the thing that you need to write. Um, and I know, and and that also goes for like if you're up for a job, don't give them the take you think they want. Give them the take that you want because what they are wanting to invest in is your voice and your contribution. They can always find somebody else to do the thing that they want to do. Um, so that's my first thing. Um my second one, oh, this will make sense if given everything that I've said. Don't expect fairness, justice, or meritocracy in this business. Um, you are not gonna get it. And when you can and you're in a position to try to dole it out, but it will be the exception, not the rule. Um, it's just not a fair, it's just not a fair business. There, if fairness is what you're into more than anything else, like go be a lawyer, do something else. Um, and then my last one, which Noah, I think you just tweeted something like this, um, is as you're going through this process, celebrate every time you win. Um, I know you say that, but it's so it's worth saying a million times because um it's so it's it's a painful, painful business to be in. It sounds like I'm being so dramatic, but you guys know and your listeners know it's really hard when your work is rejected, when your work is um beloved and then rejected, or torn apart, or taken out of your hands. And this is like this personal thing that you put maybe years of your life into and and you know, bore your soul, and and then somebody else that you have no control is gonna like go in there and tear it apart. Um, it is just so, so hard. So, like every little tiny thing, if it's like you entered a contest and you placed in it, if you you know get asked to be on a podcast, um, you know, any any little thing, someone tweet retweets your tweet because they thought you wrote something cleverly, like please let that let that get you going for like a day. Um, and and realize that it matters because those little wins are very hard to come by.

SPEAKER_00 45:11

Very good. That was good. Um yeah, it was well worth writing down. And thank you for all three of those. Look, Melissa London Hilfers, successful lawyer, lady whose show is coming out on January the 30th, not to be confused with the fool. Uh, and when it comes out, she's too nice to say, I told you I could do it, to the people who doubted that she would be able to. Thank you very much for being part of our podcast.

SPEAKER_03 45:34

Thank you. I really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_02 45:36

I will be tweeting, I told you Melissa could do it on your when you're when your episode, when your series comes out. I'm very proud of you, very proud of all that you've done, and thank you for coming.

SPEAKER_03 45:46

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 45:48

All right, that does it for us today. I want to thank you for tuning in to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss. If you have any questions or comments, you can reach out to me on Twitter. I am at and Ebslin.

SPEAKER_00 46:00

Wait, are we are we not bothering to talk about the other Twitter account, given we have this great social engagement and people never bother to actually include me, whose idea it was to do this podcast in the first place.

SPEAKER_02 46:11

Do you have a Twitter account?

SPEAKER_00 46:13

I do have a Twitter account. It's at Dan Rutste. And not only now do I have another Twitter account, I also have two other podcasts. And I've some of our listeners have been saying, Dan, please tell us about your other podcasts. So our other podcasts are What about United States of Dramerica, where I share a glass of whiskey and have a fascinating conversation. And America the beautiful game, where I talk about soccer in America and what it can learn from Europe.

SPEAKER_02 46:42

For our repeat listeners, uh, you can probably stop listening when Dan starts talking about his second and third podcast. Uh, that brings us to the end of another great episode. We, as always, want to thank our wives for putting up with our nonsense.