Take 18 - Writer Jose Molina, Law and Order SVU, Without a Trace, Agent Carter

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career's been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for sure, dozens of unproduced script littering.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Running into major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

I am Dan Rutstein, and I'm very excited to be here today. And I'm very excited to hear from Noah, who recently has been having a little bit of success and therefore probably doesn't deserve to be the co-host of this podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

And I'm really sinking the theme in the last few weeks. I'm sure I will be back to my normal level of failure in the next couple of weeks. Veteran TV writer and executive producer uh Jose Molina. He's staffed on 19 TV shows, ranging from uh Star Trek, Deep Space Nine to Dark Angel, Firefly, Law and Order SVU, Without a Trace, Clone Wars, The Vampire Diary, Sleepy Hollow, Agent Carter, and that's just a few that I named. Most recently, he's been on Weird City and Blood and Treasure. He's the guy that people go to when execs are staffing any genre show, and also at this point, most network shows. Jose is also one half of the very popular Children of Tendu podcast. And probably most importantly of all, he is my longtime WGA mentor. Welcome, Jose.

SPEAKER_03 2:06

Thank you. It's nice to be here, guys. Um one sort of point of order bit of clarification. I wasn't on staff on DS9. I was an intern. Um uh that was my first gig uh off the plane. I was 21 years old, literally 21 years old, a couple of months out of college, um, and I was a gigantic Star Trek fan. And they uh and I was lucky enough that my internship plunked me down there, and that's where I met, you know, people like Robert Wolfe, who is still a good friend of mine, uh, 20 years later. Um, and you know, people like like Rene Chevari, who was on Next Gen and who became a mentor, who, you know, hired me on Dark Angel and then Castle and uh uh Terra Nova. Uh but no, I was not lucky enough to be a staff writer, um, but I was lucky enough to be an intern and to be assigned a polish um at the tail end of my internship.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

So Noah giving an inaccuracy in the intro is entirely in keeping with the theme of this podcast. He failed.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

Already failed.

SPEAKER_02 3:19

So first question Noah has talked since I've known Noah, Noah has talked about the fact that he's got a mentor, and the mentor is you and how successful you are. As Noah's mentor, the fact that, notwithstanding maybe the last three weeks, Noah has felt very, very well qualified to host a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity. Have you, as a mentor, failed? Oh my fucking god, yes.

SPEAKER_03 3:48

I can swear, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:50

You can swear.

SPEAKER_03 3:52

Um, I fail on the daily. Um, and look, even you guys uh say I I'm a very successful guy, and I'm a guy that the networks call when they have a genre show. I don't feel like that's the case at all. And it's not just modesty, it's you know, the the nature of this industry is is built uh on the industry is built on insecurity and frailty, and uh those are my middle names. Um and you know, and I had the receipts to to show it too, you know. I've been fired from a handful of shows. Um sometimes it was my fault, sometimes it was not my fault. Um but um no, a hundred percent. And I I sort of live my life going like, uh, why didn't I get that show? Why didn't I get in the door at that show? I couldn't get a meeting on that show. Why do people hate me? Why is my writing so shitty? Why are my agents terrible? That's my life.

SPEAKER_02 4:54

How are you guys? So I thought I obviously I find it fascinating as a non-entertainment person how somebody with as many credits as you has got some so many failures in between as well, and also that you're always happy to talk about them. Let's talk about the firings. Yeah. Because, you know, for normal people, so not people in your world, people tend not to get fired from jobs. Like it's a hard thing to do to get fired. You have to steal something or be grossly, grossly incompetent. In your world, you seem to be able to get fired often through no fault of your own. Actually, maybe more often through no fault of your own. Talk me through some of your, if you have any, more memorable being fired moments.

SPEAKER_03 5:34

Well, I mean, the the reason why, um, and by the way, in if you're being technical about it, you don't usually get fired, you just don't get your option renewed. Um, which is not like we hate you, you're grossly incompetent. It's quote unquote, you weren't a good fit. And because you know, the writing game is so subjective, um, you know, someone that um that can hit a home run for uh James Cameron um might strike out for uh Andrew Marlowe on Castle. Um and you know, whether I agree that I struck out or not is irrelevant. Uh the relevant part is that he didn't think I was getting his show. Um, and he um and he decided not to bring me back. Um, but it's in our industry, in the you know, as writers, television writers, it's almost a badge of honor to get fired. Like the first time I got fired was Castle. Um, and um, which was I got fired, but I didn't really want to stay. I wasn't having a good time on the show. I wasn't really seeing um eye to eye with Andrew uh creatively. And the fact that it's a badge of honor, like when I got fired off of Castle, uh, I talked to I was probably Javi that I talked to, my uh tendu partner. Um, and he was he wasn't like, oh man, I'm so sorry. It's like, congratulations, welcome to the club. Um and uh and it's very, very rare that somebody looks at your resume and goes, Well, you were fired off of this show, so there must be something wrong with you. Because it's so normal, it's just like, oh, things didn't work out. That's okay. Um, so it's very rare that you're in an interview for another gig and somebody asks you, um, hey, what happened here, unless they want some gossip or unless they have some dirt that they want to share. It's almost irrelevant when you get fired from the show.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

It's crazy that um we had some a few other guests on who talked about the nature of firing. And one of our guests said that the only manager had come on and said that the only button that producers have on their desk uh and execs have is a big red button that says fire the writer. That's the first thing they're gonna do when something's going wrong. And we're the only ones that, you know, in most other departments, I can't even think of any other department period where there's that much turnover in staff, where it's totally okay to replace the writer and yet you're not going to easily replace the director. You're definitely not going to replace the producer, you're not going to replace, you know, the the the set deck people or even craft services, right? Uh, but you're going to replace us. Um, does it get, you know, does it get easier as you're going through and your your options aren't picked up, or you know, or is it is or is it equally hard every time?

SPEAKER_03 8:41

It depends. You know, uh in my specific case, um, I've been doing it, I've been doing the job for so long that jobs aren't as sort of end all be all as they were once upon a time. Like I uh when I take a job, there are times that I'm like incredibly invested in the show and and I'm in love with the show and I'm in love with the people that I'm working with. And there's times where it's a gig, you know, and and it's there's not a whole lot more to it than I bring um a set of skills that uh that a show or an a showrunner needs, um, and the show brings to me uh stability and a paycheck and and and a creative outlet, but it there's the older I get, the sometimes the less of an emotional investment um that there is in a show. And therefore, if it doesn't work out, if the show uh gets canceled, if I get let go, um, it stings uh a little less. Now there are there are still jobs um where um the failure or the rejection uh still hurts because you do invest emotionally. Like uh we were talking briefly about uh John Rogers um before we started recording. Um I didn't get fired from John's show. I John and I get get along great, but we did a show uh together that we wrote an entire season of TV. And then after we had everything written, the network decided they didn't want it. And that hurt because we loved what we had done, and the experience of making uh those 10 scripts was fantastic. So that that still stung. Um but you know, uh I would say the first handful uh or the first yeah, two or three times that uh that I was fired from a show, it the the emotional gamut ran from I hate these motherfuckers, I want them to get run over by a car, to I fucked up, I'm the worst, I'm terrible, I deserve it. Um I'll uh uh you know why why am I so terrible? Um and then you know it it kind of it kind of varies um from experience to experience, whether whether your heartbreaks or you know what your emotional response is to something, whether it's sadness or anger or complete uh indifference.

SPEAKER_02 11:29

So obviously you've you've had jobs, you've lost jobs, you've had jobs, you've lost jobs, you know, rinse and repeat many times.

SPEAKER_03 11:36

Right.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

When you're in between, do you always, even though you've so often got a new job, is there a part of you that thinks I'm not gonna get another one? And I'm done.

SPEAKER_03 11:51

Um there that part gets smaller and smaller. Um the question is less, am I gonna get another job? And it's more, am I gonna get um I gonna it has my career stopped having any forward motion? Am I gonna get to where I want to be, which is to to run another show, to create a show of my own, to, you know, to make my career be what I want it to be. Because as you say, a lot of my career, you know, once you hit coEP, becomes ladder, risk, repeat. And and that loses its charm pretty quickly. You're doing the same job, you're kind of stuck in in the same position for the same amount of time. And that's what gets uh scarier to me. It's not is it's not, am I gonna get some random job that I may or may not like that may or may not pay the bills for any amount of time? It's am I stuck in a place that I'm not gonna be able to get out of? And is my hope of um my end game, my career endgame, gone? Yeah, uh am I barking up the wrong tree and my um and the the thing that I've been fighting for my entire career is is now finally out of my grasp because I'm too old or I'm not uh relevant enough, I'm not a hot commodity uh that people want to sign to overall deals or uh or even you know bring in to supervise writers or or run shows or give IP to develop or that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

So in normal careers of which your industry is the opposite, you know, people want to get promoted, they want to move up the ladder. But I feel like in your world, because it's obviously creative, it's a bit different. If you have a choice between going up a level on a show you like less and believe less in creatively, or going sideways at the same level to a better show in terms of how it fits you, what you want to do, or how successful you think it would be, in the middle portion of your career, what was more important, the progression or an interesting show? And is that still the same now?

SPEAKER_03 14:21

In it's it's not the same now. It's it's a it's a really good question because I have often said uh half jokingly, but it really is only half jokingly, that I should have stayed on SVU for forever. Um and I I literally still have dreams where I'm back on SVU because I was on that show, that was my third gig, and I was uh I rose to producer on that show. Um, so that was my uh my mid-level years. Um and I wasn't happy uh creatively. The people were very, very nice, um, and they were very kind and they were very supportive. Um, I had no no beef with the work environment. I didn't really enjoy um the subject matter. Um, I was a fan of the mothership law and order because I really dug the sort of polemic uh issue of the week that you dealt in the courtroom stuff. But SVU being what it is, you didn't really have a whole lot of courtroom. So it was more cop stuff, and I didn't really like that. And um uh and of course, you know, you're dealing with with rape and uh child abuse and and a lot of deeply unpleasant things um that um that was just not my bag. I literally could have made millions and millions and millions of dollars if I had stayed on that show. Uh some of my friends who stayed did make all that money. Uh I was 33, 34 by the time I left. And I remember Lost was on at the time. Um, and Battlestar Galactica, I think, was starting at around the time. And I would just I was just thinking to myself, there is great genre TV happening out there, and I'm missing it because I'm on this stupid procedural. So I left after three years, completely on my own. I didn't get fired. I was just like, I don't want to be here anymore. Um, I want to pursue, you know, what what is in my sort of creative heart. And at that point, I was totally full of piss and vinegar, and I was still gonna take over Hollywood and nobody was gonna stop me. Um, and I didn't really understand um or I didn't believe that uh some of the uh cautionary tales applied to me. Um and I was like, I I'll I'll make the money, I'll I'll have the career that I want. I'm gonna I'm gonna write my own rules. And then I left that show and I couldn't get on any of the shows that I really wanted to get because at that point, after three years on SVU, the industry suddenly considered me not a genre guy, but a procedural guy. So all the offers that I had, like not even the offers, all the interest that I had when I left SVU was on other procedural shows. And I wound up going on uh without a trace, um, which was another show that creatively wasn't a great fit. It had one thing that SVU didn't, which was it shot here in LA, so I could start educating myself a little bit more about what set uh was like and how to deal with actors and how to deal with production, which I didn't have on SVU because we shot in New York. Um if you asked me now, um I would tell my younger self to stay on SVU for probably one more contract to bank some of that money. Um but you know, it's hard to sort of play sliding doors with with your career because everything that happens in your career sort of builds one brick on top of another. And the friendships and the relationships that you make are all based on where you where you ended up making a right turn and a left turn. And I really I wouldn't trade a lot of those relationships and those experiences for for money. If you ask me right now, at my current age, do you want to go on SVU? Um I don't know that I would. Um because as much as I'm looking at you know retirement 10-ish years away, and and I want to make sure that I have enough in the bank to retire, I know I wouldn't be happy. Um so would I rather stress about money um and uh or sort of live a day-to-day, creatively more satisfied experience? It's hard. Uh, you know, uh in a perfect world, you you sort of meet in the middle and you get a job that's that that pays you a decent amount uh and uh sets you up for the future a little bit while still being able to um to um to be you know to to do a job that you enjoy.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

Fascinate fascinating answer. So this is not a strictly rejection or failure question, but I think it counts as an adversity question and therefore is permitted on this podcast. All right. So I know people uh in the police service in in the UK who've worked in units that deal with some of the crimes that was covered in um SVU. Yeah. And obviously, burnout for police officers is a is a thing in those units. I know there's a whole load of stuff about the people who monitor on social media for this sort of stuff, you know, the psychological counseling they need. From a mental health point of view for a writer, when the subject matter is as it was, you know, you're going in there to the room and you're discussing the various horrible ways a five-year-old could be taken from their parents and the things that could happen to them. Does that take a toll on you as a writer?

SPEAKER_03 20:30

A thousand percent. Um, and on SVU, and I think on every Law and Order, there was no room. So you're basically uh by yourself reading uh these horrible things. Uh, on SVU, every uh four to five months, I think, we would get this gigantic fucking booklet of uh stories printed out from the internet. And it was basically the the proverbial rip from the headlines stories that fit into the milieu of a special victim, so whether it's the elderly or a child or a sexual abuse victim. So you had Christ five to eight hundred pages worth of stories, real-world stories, of horrendous, awful, nightmarish things that happen to real people, and you would go through this book looking for your next episode idea. Um, and then you know, you would land on whatever that idea was, and then you would sit in your room by yourself trying to figure out how what are the worst things that pe people can do to one another, and what is the most, if not perverse, the most interesting dramatically uh thing that that one person can do to another.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

So maybe this is a really naive question, but did they offer counseling to the writer?

SPEAKER_03 21:56

No, they did not. Um and um and I don't know that. Any of us would have taken it because the the culture was very much like uh you know we are we are putting these stories out there as you know uh almost uh not quite educational tools, but we're sort of beating the drum of the victim to to help bolster the victim, to um to say you're not alone and to say there is help and to say, you know, stand up against your uh victimizer. So for us to feel like we were in some way, and maybe this is my own bullshit uh psychology, I I feel like I wouldn't have taken that uh help on simply because um I was the the reporter, you know, I wasn't the victim, I was the the the person that was that was telling the victim story, and that was my responsibility. But but yeah, it was crazy. Um and uh and you know spending so much time by yourself in the headspace of these either horrible criminals or completely traumatized victims, uh it sucked, man. It was three years of um uh of being in a really dark headspace. And like I remember there was an episode that I did where um I'll try to keep this brief, where there was a child molester. Uh, and the truth about child molesters um per the research is that if they're not stopped, your average uh child molester will molest 117 children over the course of his career. Um, and so we I had one of these guys who was a serial molester who was finally in jail, and our cops needed him to help solve a crime. It was a little bit of a Hannibal Lecter thing where they go to him because he may have a clue, and he demands that um they reunite him with his souvenirs, and his souvenirs are the baseball caps of all the eight-year-olds that he molested because he he prayed at a little league uh around a little league field. And so he molested fucking eight-year-olds uh who were in the league. And so they're reuniting him with these mementos, and I'm already kind of like, yeah, I'm nailing this. This is fucked up, this is twisted. And then I came up with the idea of the way he remembers which kid it is that belongs to a specific cat, is by sniffing it. And I was so fucking proud of myself for that beat. And then I sort of step aside of uh outside of myself, and I was like, I need to get out of here. When when this is how uh like uh how I'm doing my job is uh is to have a pedophile sniffing the scent off of a dead kid's baseball hat. Fuck that. I gotta go. And so I did.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

You can see how gallows humor becomes a thing in these police forces when they're forced to deal with this on a daily basis, and they don't have they have a culture where support, these support systems really aren't in place as well as they should be. Um, and I've actually been thinking about, you know, I've been listening to this conversation and a couple of a thing you said way earlier sort of really sticking with me, which is your very beginning opening comments of that you're not getting the meetings that you want to get necessarily, that you submit to shows and they're silent. And this is, by the way, very common for the rest of us. You you submit to a show, you have like someone just DM'd me, said to me, said to me, How do you choose the shows that you want to staff on? And I I laughed because like that's not how it works. I mean, in a way, you are choosing the shows you want to staff on, but then it never's it's never reciprocal in a way that the show that you want to staff on necessarily wants you to staff on that show. And we're all bugging our managers all the time or agents, being like, there's an announcement or something, get me on that show or put me up for that show. And I it so rarely happens that the show that you're pointing at that you end up getting. And it's just this, you know, you're sustaining a career in Hollywood is, you know, endlessly tricky, endlessly exhausting. And you talked a little bit about, you know, you know, being demoralized or, you know, being on these shows, which is really taking a toll on you. What I want to talk about is the macro of the business taking a toll on you. Now that you've been in it for so long, and you of all people, Jose, know how hard it is. Like I think we're trying to get across in this podcast that it's it's an amazing job, it's an amazing career. It's follow your dreams, of course, but it's very, very difficult every aspect of it. Do you suggest, you know, in regards to support system, like like I know a lot of writers see a therapist. I know a lot of writers have extra have extra support out there because it is not, as Dan puts it, a normal job, a job.

SPEAKER_03 27:05

Yeah, no, look, I've been in therapy uh since Firefly. The uh the cancellation of Firefly and some of the sort of inner workings of that show, which you know, uh I think have been talked about in the last couple of weeks, um made me go see a therapist for the first time. And I've been sort of on and off with that same therapist for almost 20 years now. Um, and it's invaluable. Like um it I don't know what kind of sh emotional uh psychological state I would be in if I didn't have uh some someone to to sort of unload on and and to get uh and to get guidance from. You know, uh something that that Javi and I talk about a fair amount is how unrelatable the problems of uh professional writers are. You know, we're complaining about, well, I didn't get a meeting on Lost. Um, so I ended up going on uh without a trace. Like, oh, so you mean you didn't go, you didn't get on the Emmy Award-winning show, but you did end up uh making $400,000 that year. Oh, I'm so sad for you. It's it you kind of feel like a fraud for having the feelings that you have, for for feeling like you have a right to complain um simply because um because people would kill for the position to be in the position that you're in. Um and so you know, having a therapist and having a peer group, honestly, uh a group of friends that you can talk to about this shit um is is beyond uh priceless. Um I I in a vacuum, I don't know how I would be able to function.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

And I mean, at this point, I know that I have my challenges, I know that my peer group has their challenges, and I know that kind of we're all you know, everyone's we all interact and we're all friends, but you know, the people that I've been in the business longer have a sort of slightly different circle of friends that represent the people that they came up with, and that, but that some of the challenges seem to be universal for all of us, which is, you know, that our ego is on the line all the time, and that when we are rejected, they're really rejecting not only, you know, they're rejecting our work, but at a really core primal level where they're saying this isn't good enough in a very sort of superficial way of like this needs to get better, and there's codes and all of that, and you just sort of, you know, learn how to deal with it and get better at dealing with this type of notes and however the business works. But what do you think for you is the hardest thing? I mean, you know, yes, sometimes you get paid a lot of money, but like what is the thing that like makes the business the hardest in in your mind?

SPEAKER_03 30:14

Well, I mean, um it's funny because you you just talked about like you people reject you. Um and there's and you said and they reject you in a superficial way. I think that can be one of the more frustrating. I don't think it's the hardest thing, but it's one of the most most frustrating things that you know there's a cattle call for a job, um, and you know you're getting the least most minimal amount of time someone can give you to to give you a yay or an A. Where you feel like you know, if you were given the proper chance, you could nail that gig. You just didn't give me the chance, you asshole. How dare you? Give me the the open the door for me so I can get in. Um so that's that's one of those things that that is constantly sort of gnawing at your uh at your patience and at your um at your ability to to put up with with the nonsense of how the industry works. For me, um, and I'd love to hear you know your reaction to this, for me, the hardest part of the whole thing is the insecurity. And I'm not talking about the insecurity of, you know, am I talented or am I not? It's the literally not knowing um where your next paycheck is coming from, um, and where the paycheck after that is coming from. And you know, when the there's there's so many obstacles to success. Like, first thing is you want to get that job, right? Let's say you're going out for a job on a new show. Um, so first challenge is for you to get the job, right? That's hard. Second challenge, you got the job. Yeah, good for you. Challenge number two is you have to excel at the job. You have to not get fired from that job. You have to to prove that you're that you're earning your keep and that they should bring you back. Challenge number three, which is completely out of your hands, is is that show going to stay on the air? Chances are it's not. I mean, NCIS has a pretty good chance, but the vast majority of first year shows get canceled. So you put so much of yourself and time and energy and effort into this job, getting it and being good at it. And then ultimately doesn't matter. You're out of a job again, and you're in the same cycle again, six months or a year later. Um, and so much of it is completely out of your hands. So to me, it's that that's that's the hardest thing to deal with psychologically. Like you just there is nothing that you can predict. Uh, and so you're constantly facing that uncertainty and you're not knowing um what your life is gonna look like. Like, you know, how many times have I wanted to take a vacation uh or to you know make plans to go to a friend's wedding or or whatever or graduation and or or or fuck it. Just like I want to go see a baseball game with a friend in I want to go visit a friend uh in Boston and go see a baseball game, but you can't make those plans because you have no idea what the next where you'll be in three months, six months, eight months. And that to me is the hardest part.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

Yeah, for sure. Uh you had mentioned how do I feel about the insecurity part and not knowing where the next paycheck is. And I know that it's reaching a fever pitch for me when I start start waking up in the middle of the night, when it's like 2:30 in the morning and I'm waking up thinking about the gig, the job, the gig, the kids, the family, the thing. And you really do, you know, I don't have a therapist at this second, and you do need to have friends. Uh, Dan and I pretend to be arch enemies, but you know, he is someone that I might talk to about like some of your insecurities because you need to be able to, you have Javi, right? Where it's like you need to have someone you can have a conversation with when something when things aren't going well and you you're hoping for a change.

SPEAKER_02 34:46

So to clarify, I actually still think we are arch enemies, but yeah, you might you might talk to Dan Noah, but he's not listening.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

That's true. That's true.

SPEAKER_02 34:56

And if I knew you were using me as a therapist, I'd be charging. So, Jose, you mentioned something earlier on around when I was asking you about sort of the different types of shows that you would be on and what you would prefer. And you were talking about your you said you sort of, am I going to be able by the end of my career to achieve the legacy I want? So I I can't not ask the question, what does success look like for you? And what is the legacy that you want to achieve as a writer?

SPEAKER_03 35:26

I mean, look, in my 20s and early 30s, I was not gonna put up with anything less than being um, you know, a Shonda Rhimes, Ryan Murphy, Greg Brillante giant uh entity uh with uh many shows and Emmys and all of that, you know, the the the big giant uh chair. Um now I would still love for that to happen. Um that is less the immediate goal right now. The immediate goal right now is to get a show that I created on the air and keep it on the air. Um, and you know, being able to hire a group of writers to help me uh bring that vision to fruition. Um the the end game in a perfect world, yeah, is to be able to have enough um is to have the studios and the networks give me enough um leeway and enough respect that they that they allow me to do like what uh what Shonda or Greg or uh Ryan uh can do, which is to bring somebody else's vision to fruition and be able to back uh another writer and produce a show for another writer um under my, you know, whatever you want to call it, tutelage supervision. Um, but you know, I I think where once upon a time I had these grandiose visions of like being the fucking naval of Hollywood and uh everybody uh knowing who I was and and and you know having respect and and influence. That was sort of my young man's ego and naivete. Um and now sort of looking at um at uh at what's really important to me, it's it's less, it's far less the empire, and it's much more the uh sort of day-to-day uh wanting to tell a story that I think has value and is important um and uh and can resonate with people.

SPEAKER_02 37:56

Yeah. So it's interesting. Obviously, you've told a story about how you've changed your view on what a career looks like from your youth to your relative veteran status now, if you don't mind me phrasing it like that. So, which is the perfect time to ask the last question, which is if you could give a single piece of advice to a young writer thinking about entering this industry, what would you tell them?

SPEAKER_03 38:18

You know what? You asked that of Robert, and I told myself I needed to come up with an answer, and I didn't. So I don't have a great answer for um, you know, I will echo what what Robert said, uh what Robert Wolfe said, which is um, you know, you really have to want it. Um, this is not, especially in 2021, the industry isn't what it was even 10 years ago, 12 years ago, uh, in terms of what you can get out of it. So if you're not willing to deal with the slings and arrows of this industry, and you have the ability to do something else, um, that maybe is a little bit more stable and predict predictable and conductive to a to to a life that has the things that you want on a personal level, that that allows uh a job that allows you to get married and have kids and have uh holidays and and vacations and and spend time with your family. If you can do that, do that. Um because this this industry asks and takes a lot out of you. Um and um, you know, I don't think that there is anything else that I if I had told myself at age 21, this is what it's gonna look like, there really isn't anything else that I can think of, even with all that hindsight, that I would want to take on more than this. Because I look my job is still I get to show up in a room or I will once the pandemic is over. I get to show up in a room with a bunch of other smart people and go, what's the coolest thing I can think of? That's my job, is to go, well, isn't this cool? And that's a pretty fucking great job. Um they they uh I forget who it was that I first heard say this, but it's true that you you're almost writing for free. You're getting paid to put up with the bullshit. Um and um and it's a lot of bullshit. Uh so that's as close as I get to to to being able to give some piece of advice is listen to Robert's episode and do what he said.

SPEAKER_01 40:59

That's really funny. I I have some mentees as well. I'm doing that start with eight, and I basically just mimicked what or what Seth said, what you said, and what Robert said about you really need to want it. And you can see their eyes glazing over a little bit. They don't fully understand what you're saying yet, right? But I really now I can say, well, Jose said it, so you should listen to the podcast and listen to Jose say these same things because it really needs to be burned into your soul. I mean, this job needs to be, and if it is burned into your soul and this is what you want to do, then nothing is gonna stop you and you're gonna achieve everything that you want to achieve.

SPEAKER_03 41:32

Yeah, I mean, but look, the the thing is the the saying exists that youth is wasted on the young for a reason. You you can't really tell someone who is 21 and just out of college, um, you you can't give them the wisdom of your experience because they're they're not gonna listen. Uh, I, you know, like I said, I I was on D Space Line as an intern when I was 21, and Michael Piller, who literally changed the course of my life, and I will be forever grateful to the late great Michael Pillar, had me read uh Adventures in the Screen Trade, the William Goldman book. And I read it, and I remember thinking, uh what that's a great book. None of this applies to me. Um, because I'm special and I'm gonna be different. Um, and so I can give you the best advice in the world. You're not gonna take it. You're gonna, you gotta grow uh as you are gonna grow, you gotta take your own lumps, and they have to teach you what you have to learn. Um, you know, I guess here's a piece of advice. Listen to your elders. When when someone tells you something, believe them.

SPEAKER_01 42:50

Um well, uh on on that note, Jose, we want to thank you for sharing your time and your wisdom with us uh today. And and we're just super appreciative you took the time to come on. Of course, man, it's been fun.

SPEAKER_02 43:02

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 43:04

Yeah, take care. All right, that does it for us today. I want to thank you for tuning in to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss. If you have any questions or comments, you can reach out to me on Twitter. I am at NEBslin.

SPEAKER_02 43:22

Are we not offering the Twitter account? We have this great social engagement that people never pop up, actually include me, who's ideal to do this polygons in the first place. I do have a Twitter account. Oh yes, United States of America. Well we're sharing love so we can have a fascinating conversation. And America the beautiful game.

SPEAKER_01 44:04

From our repeat listeners, uh you can probably stop listening when Dan starts talking about his second and third podcast. Um, and that brings us to the end of another great episode. We, as always, want to thank everyone for putting up with our nonsense.