Take 8 - Actress Ann Cusack, The Boys, Sully, A League of Their Own

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for shore, dozens of unproduced scripts littering the floor.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

For every success, there is months, sometimes even years, of painful failure. This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

That's the norm. You have to be able to persevere. That process takes us.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

That doesn't happen overnight. I was being told by my manager it's yours to lose, and I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking, like, well, that's it for me. I blew my one big shot. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. I am your host, Dan Ratstein, and I'd like to ask my good co-host friend Noah to introduce our guest.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

This is a person that honestly needs no introduction. Uh, she's the actress Anne Cusack. And if I look at her IMDB page, it literally has 83 credits uh as an actor. So I could spend the entire hour just reading them off, but I will give a list of a couple or a few. List she started her career basically with the little known movie A League of Their Own. She was in the TV show Allie McBeal, the little known TV show, as well as Star Trek Enterprise, had a had a role in Frasier. She's had uh recurring roles in a lot of Chandeland shows. She was in the TV show Masters of Sex, uh Grim, the recent movie Sully. Most recently you can see her in the TV, the Amazon hit show The Boys. Welcome, Ann.

SPEAKER_03 2:03

Hi, it's so nice to be here.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Is that your scream into the Hollywood Abyss? It is. That's very good. That's a good your first guess. People have said I feel like I'm screaming, but you've actually been the first to scream.

SPEAKER_04 2:20

So we're not started off with a nice scream. So look as you're just falling, sinking into that dark rabbit hole of an abyss.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

So I I'm gonna start with a personal story that leads to a question. So I think you know, I've I've known you for six-ish years since we first moved here. And I remember as someone who's not in the industry and not from this world, you were part of my first sort of oh my god, I live in Hollywood moment, which was I think two days after we met, uh, which was actually a football game. There I watched a I watched a film, and in the film, two things happened. One, they started talking about locations that I'd heard of. There was an argument about whether it's quicker to drive up um Coldwater Canyon or one of the other canyons.

SPEAKER_03 3:15

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

And and then the second thing that happened is that you were in the show. You were a TV news editor, I think it was, in the show. And this was the one with Jake Gillenhall.

SPEAKER_04 3:25

Oh, or the movie The Night Crawler.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Yeah, the movie The Night Crawler. And sorry, um, and for me that was my moment. Like I've made it in Hollywood because I recognize what they're talking about in terms of locations, and I know someone in a in a movie. Um, so you know, for me, it's it's it's been fun to sort of see you in things all the way through. So you you've been in obviously, you know, Noah let read out some of them. You've been in so many different shows. So obviously, this podcast is not about all of the shows that you're in, it's got to be about the gaps in between. So, even for somebody outwardly who has been in so many things, and it looks like you must be sort of rolling on from one job to the next, can you tell us about the moments in between and why actually, even with a career like yours, it's been harder than people probably think.

SPEAKER_04 4:14

Um that's very nice that you think that I I have a really nice career. Um and I I've been very fortunate in terms of the jobs that I've gotten and a lot of the directors I've worked with. Um, I'm very grateful. Um you know, mostly it's um it's a there's a lot of space in between um each job. And it's that's mostly, I mean, when you first when you first start, just to sort of launch into the top topics of this, and I was thinking about it before you we, you know, start, you know, letting me know what this was going to be about, is that when you first really kind of start out, quote unquote rejection, adversity, and failure, um, everybody starts with a specific meaning, and usually um you take it really personally, and you can't not take it personally. You're um because you put yourself on the line in as a role as an actor, when you go in and you do a scene about having been um somebody dying that you love, or you have to audition for a scene where um you've been sexually assaulted, or you're discovering that you know someone you thought you know has betrayed you, you're you know, you have to use your own feelings, you have to use your own yourself. So you're wide open and there's a kind of raw, and it is personal. So, and particularly if you want the role, if you want the job, um, there's even more of an investment, and you can spend hours and hours and hours pulling yourself, you know, depending on how good you're able to memorize, how many scenes you have to do, what it whatever it is, you spend an enormous amount of time working on what it is, you know, you kind of put your heart and soul into it. It's like you're doing a job interview every single time. And it's um so initially when you start out, it's you do take it personally, one, because you put yourself on the line, but two, because you really want the job. Um, and then what happens is as you have most people have not everybody, but most people have more quote unquote uh rejections or failures uh than they do jobs. Unless you get to a point where you can make people money, and once you can like get projects greenlit, then it's another dance. But for the you know, the most the middle class or the lower middle class in the industry, you're um you know, you're mostly um rejected or failure. So what happens is you redefine those words and you re um you have to re-emotionally frame what those words are, what that experience is, and uh learn how to emotionally detach from the process on a certain level, so that you know, by the time you've had, you know, 20, 30 years you're uh of doing it, you've learned to different coping techniques, different ways of being able to handle it and put it in a perspective and us uh a reality so that you're not you know devastated all the time.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

So here's a question. So we've had people talk about like a show they really wanted to be on and not getting on, and obviously how you handle that. But there's an angle to this that you sort of talked about, which I hadn't, I guess, thought of, which is in the audition process itself, if the role is a particularly emotional one or or visceral and you have to sort of put yourself out there more, do those rejections hurt more, even regardless of what you know how big the show might be, but just because you've sort of exposed yourself, you've been vulnerable as part of the interview, and they've decided that you know your version of crying because you've just been sexually assaulted isn't the version that they're looking for? And is that a worse rejection?

SPEAKER_04 8:29

Well, it depends, it depends, you know, it depends where you are in your career, and it depends on whether you've got um those mechanisms in order to keep it in a perspective. You know, uh, first of all, it's your job to do that. So you have to learn how to be emotionally fluid in terms of being able to go move in and out of that, those kind of darker, intense sort of feelings. So, one, you have to sort of learn how to emotionally kind of handle that stuff, and that takes time, and it's not always necessarily easy. The other is that you have to take into account that there are so many reasons why you don't get a job that have absolutely nothing to do with you. It has nothing to do with you, it has nothing to do with your talent, it has nothing to do with whether you have the right representation or you don't have the right representation, um, whether you know the person or you don't. There's so many reasons why you don't. And so you that also is a way to emotionally detach yourself from taking it personally and being able to know that there's a larger context that's going on in terms of the industry. So, I mean, that's an another way in which you emotionally uh detach yourself from taking it very personally, and that it doesn't really have anything to do with you. You know, that being said, it's still, if you really want the role, you have to, it is hard and you it is does bum you out, and it may, you know, depending on how much you really wanted it and how much you really invested in it or came down to the wire on it, you know, that that'll affect how long it takes you to kind of move on and emotionally get through it and go, okay, next, you know.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

I don't know if this makes it any better or any worse, but I've definitely been on the other side of the table looking at the audition tapes that are coming in, you know, mostly through the internet now. And we when the time they come to the writers or producers, it they've basically narrowed it down to the top five. And of the top five, there's almost always two clearly sort of people that are are sort of that you're picking between. And you're like, this person nailed this part of the role, this person nailed that part of the role. And something it sometimes it comes down to something really arbitrary, like the person has a smaller nose or like in connection, or a larger nose, or that was a closer physical physical thing to the description on the page that you guys were all thinking about and has nothing to do with the performance, or the person's slightly bigger, or slightly smaller, or slightly, and it's completely out of the hands of the person who is doing the audition. There's only been a few times where I feel like somebody has come in who is totally against hype and was so perfect for the role that it just took away all of the other competition who were who the role was written for. Sometimes you'll get a casting agent and be like, uh, the casting agent will be like, these I know you're looking for this per these types of people or this type of person, but this one person I feel is so perfect for your thing. And that one person will come in, you'll rewrite the role. But that's so rare to the process. Sometimes it is so arbitrary. And I feel for my actor friends who, you know, you got that close and you would have done it, you you could have done a great job, and it wasn't, you know, it wasn't in your control that way, and it wasn't your fault that way. But you know, speaking of sort of near misses in this career where you've had you've been on so many huge movies and TV shows. Uh is there one or or a handful that you missed that you wish that you that you had gotten that kind of like stays in your mind?

SPEAKER_03 12:07

Um I I I I mean uh I'm trying to think of a uh I mean there's a there's a lot.

SPEAKER_04 12:15

Um but what what happens is when um you know in order not to to dwell too much on it, um you I'd kind of like um process it and then let it go, you know. Because there's there's there's so many where you, you know, um that you'd love to do where it goes, oh god, I just I feel like I could bring something to that or it would line up really well and um you know somebody somebody gets it because you know uh they've worked with the uh with the director before. I mean I've been on both sides of it where I've been cast because I knew the director, um, and I was able to handle certain kinds of situations and they knew I could with other actors, and then I've been on the other side where I was absolutely right for it, but because you know this person was a little bit more higher profile and they knew the director or the producer, they got cast, you know. So I've been like on both sides of it, which is which is really which is really interesting, you know.

SPEAKER_00 13:29

So just in terms of how you process it and maybe how that's changed from your you know the beginning of your career to where you are now, you know, when you when you get told no on a on something you really wanted, you know, do you just sort of do you cry? Do you scream into the abyss? Do you throw things? Do you drink? Do you go for a walk? Like how what's your how do I process the rejection?

SPEAKER_03 13:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:54

Drugs. I'm kidding. I just start doing lines. I take massive amounts of arbituates and drink. No, I'm um I'm kidding. Um now uh now the way I I I process it is um is very different than when I was in my in my twenties. So um and I I used to not um a lot of times it was really hard, and a lot of times I, you know, it took uh a while to um, you know, I either talk to someone or I try to busy myself with something else or try to distract myself. Um sometimes you try to fight, you know, um, and find out why and if there's anything else you can do or if you can, you know, re um re-record yourself or re-audition or that kind of thing. So there's a lot of I think a lot a lot of times for me is uh the way I I handle things best if I know what the truth is or what the reality is. So if it's because you know I didn't line up for the role and um I didn't have the right sensibilities, or uh, I mean at this point I feel like um, you know, I I can give a good audition, but again, it's like what you were saying, there's gonna be certain qualities, there's gonna be certain, you know, the way you look or how you handle it or an energy thing that can play into why or why you don't get the role. And you know, it it it helps it helps me to know why I did or didn't get the role or why they gave it to somebody else for me to just kind of know, okay, was it something that I needed to do? And if so, then I can make the adjustments. But if it's because you know I'm not um an Asian woman, there's absolutely nothing I can do. You know, and I've been in a job, I was in a uh audition years ago. I was down for a pilot and um it was done, you know, we had gone in to test and that kind of stuff. And then the, you know, after the went in, I was considered the top one for the role. And it was an ensemble show, and I would have been a series regular again. And um uh in the process of doing this testing, you know, one of the studio, you know, one of the executives, network executives, go, well, what if that role was an Asian woman? I you know, okay, uh, there's nothing I can do about that. You know, I just I'm not an Asian woman. So, you know, it would have been nice if you had decided like before that you maybe wanted to have an Asian woman, so I didn't have to go through this whole process.

SPEAKER_00 16:45

So going back, a question about, and you said finding out what why you didn't get something, because we've we've talked about this on the podcast a lot with with the writers and so on, and sometimes the reason why they don't tell you, or they're so odd and abstract that it wouldn't make sense anyway. Do you do you go back and say, you know, why not every time, or just on one are you really cared?

SPEAKER_04 17:10

No, no, I I usually, you know, which I think drives my manager a little bit crazy, or my you know, my my fellow uh, you know, my agents. Um, the reason that um I get want feedback and get it is not so much um there's a weird dance for actors when you're auditioning. Um and I don't know if you want me to get into this sort of topic. Um just you know, just tell me. Um, and it's something that uh I learned to do as a way of handling um the process, which is when you go into audition, for most actors, and and this is where I was for most of the time, you know, for at least when I first started getting into the industry, was um who has the power? Who has the power in the room? And and the idea is that for actors, most actors, it's there's a judgment when you go in and you do that thing, and are they gonna like me? And if they like me, then they'll give me the job. And um so it's all about giving the power over to whoever the producers are or who can cast you. And as I said, so many of the reasons why you do or don't get a job really have nothing to do with you. So, in order for you to be able to continually, you know, put yourself in a place where um you're judged or potentially could be rejected or fail, quote unquote, um what what I ended up doing was going there's all and it's it's there's a kind of um uh I studied with David Manim Mammoth many, many, many years ago when I was in my early twenties, and he had us read a lot of different philosophers, and one of them was the Stoics. And one of the things about the Stoics is the the idea was um don't waste your time on things that you cannot control. And so the things that you can control are your own feelings, your thoughts, uh what you do, your behavior. You you can't control anybody's um else's behavior, how they're gonna think about you, what they do, what they don't do. Um most of that is out of your control. So what happened for me then with the the audition process became the feedback was a way of me being able to learn how to read a room and how to know whether what I had tended to do with the part, the role, how I the emotional um uh components, elements, colors, whatever you want to say, um, that I wanted to bring to the role or to bring to the scene, um that was my way of finding out if I did what I had intended to do. And so that I would go, all right, if you cast me in this role, these are the things that I'm gonna bring to the table. You want that or don't you want that? If you don't want that, obviously you're not gonna you're not gonna cast me or hire me. But that way I could also begin to read whether I was gonna get the role or not. Or know that I was in the um, I was in the maybe the top five that you were you were saying. Um, or that I would get to that sort of next level. And then, as you said, it then it becomes about the fine-tuning. Well, she's got this quality, she doesn't have this, we don't like the color of her hair. Okay, she just blew it out of the water, and even though she's not right, we got a caster in it. Do you know what I mean? That's that's not usually the norm, but there are people that can do that and have done that, so it became a way for me to take the power back so that I didn't feel like I was being judged and criticized all the time, but that I was learning my craft and being able to get an objectivity about myself and what I was doing or not doing and what I was bringing to the table. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 21:20

It it does make sense. So obviously, your partner is also in the business, doesn't it? Yeah, and my family is in the business, and your well, okay, yeah, because obviously, you know, when we in in other worlds, you know, you there's people who talk about their life. So you know, my wife's an accountant, and when she's finished filling in her spreadsheets and she tries to tell me about it, I've got no idea what she's talking about. And I tell her what I've been doing in my world, and she, you know, it makes no sense to her either. In your world, if you get apart or don't get apart, and explain that what you've explained to us about the process, obviously, your your siblings, your partner, they've all been through a version. Of that themselves. So is that does that help or does it or does it make it worse in a way because you know they might be getting the success on the same day that you've had a rejection and vice versa.

SPEAKER_04 22:14

Um it it helps in the fact that there's certain stuff I don't have to explain. You know? And um that there's an understanding of what the dynamic is and that there's also um because it's such a we're in a weird industry. It's just there's no other industry that that behaves like we do. It just, it just doesn't, you know. So there's hard, you know, is there any other industry where you, you know, you go off to a job and you have to kiss somebody that you don't, you know, that you have no feelings for whatsoever, or you may not even like, you know, or you have to fight, or you have to like, there's no other industry that does that, you know, as far as telling stories of the human condition. It's just sort of crazy. So um it's such an odd, it's such an odd, odd world that on one hand it's really helpful not to have to explain it. Um, you know, in that way, but it you still have to process it yourself. You know, everybody sort of processes it differently. Some people need to talk about it a lot and bitch and moan, and you know, you do that, you know, you download and have somebody so disappointed. I really want it, you know, you can't, it it is personal, you know, that's the bottom line. It is it is about your feelings and it's it's learning how to handle them and learning the different ways in which to handle your feelings, you know.

SPEAKER_00 23:49

And and being part of a broader family where you've got siblings who are obviously working as well. How how does the sort of sibling rivalry work? Is it in terms of sort of mutual support or sort of fun competitiveness within?

SPEAKER_04 24:05

Um I don't have it with them, and the reason I don't have it with them is because very, very early on, um uh John and Joan had uh had a you know, John carried his first film when he was 17. Joni got nominated for an Oscar when she was in her 20s, and she's been nominated twice. So, you know, you I had to deal with those issues really early on. And the reality is um I love them and they're so talented and they're so they're so good. Um and what they've had to uh endure in an industry that's not very kind very often, you know, they're um they're they're they're amazing that way. The other part, the other fact is I would never get cast in any of the roles that they have. So it's stupid to compare myself in that way. Because we just um I wouldn't go up for the same roles that Joan would go up for. I wouldn't go up for the same ones that John would. So, you know, if I want to make myself feel bad, I can I can I can try to go, you know, I can compare myself. But very early on, I had to get into reality about that, or I was, you know, I wasn't gonna you I wasn't gonna survive. It's like, okay, hold on, wait a second. What's what's what's the truth here about that situation? And they've only ever been supportive of me as far as as uh you know growing up, and and I've tried to be that for them. So I'm very, I'm very, very fortunate because that's not always the case, that um I like and love them. Um and I find that they they don't have any option. They they have no choice but to be actors and to do what they do, and they they deserve every success they've had, you know. It comes with the price, but but they do. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

You guys must be, I mean, I don't know, top ten most talent, if top five most talented families in Hollywood, all of you. I know you gave a lot of credit to your brothers, but you've been and sister, but you've been in so many amazing things and have had so many amazing roles.

SPEAKER_04 26:22

So well, that's very kind. That's very, very, very kind.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

I um top three, top one, you're the top. Uh I I have a I have a process question because something you're saying is is interesting to me. I had I was having this conversation with people on Twitter about just output. And as a writer, I wrote a lot in 2020, just like like put my nose down and was just putting out pages, and someone asked like about that process, and I said, it seems healthy, and maybe I mean it seems like I I was doing it to avoid the pandemic or just to, you know, but I was really doing it to sort of minimize my anxiety that I write because it's the only thing I can control in the business, is what I put on the page. And when my anxiety starts to spike, the only thing I can do that's healthy outside of what you were talking about jokingly, the drugs and the alcohol is to actually put out pages. And if I get rejected, I find that I'm actually the most productive right after because I like a fire, is like I have to feed my family, I have to make some money, I have to sell something, I gotta write something new, I'm gonna write something. But as an actor, you don't have it's not as tangible where I can write myself out of the out of the slump I'm in. You can't, you can only sort of you can you can act your way out, but you're not always in control of the auditions you're getting. So what do you do on a real process of the way?

SPEAKER_04 27:41

I have no control over that really.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

Yeah, to better, not to better yourself, but to like push your craft forward at a time where you're in a in a in some sort of slump.

SPEAKER_04 27:51

Well, there's two things that's come to mind in terms of what you're addressing, um, as far as what I'm you know, what I'm hearing. First of all, if you're a creative person, if you're a writer, an actor, a singer, a dancer, a painter, if you are not living out of that the creative process, at least on a consistently um consistent place, whether it's every day, whether it's you know, five times a week or something, you're gonna go buggy, you're gonna go batty, because that's you're you're designed to be and have to be in the creative process, those those true artists that of all of us. So um, and I I've found that most creative, most people who are either actors or writers or anybody who's in the creative field that is, you know, that's particularly their calling, creativity doesn't just um it doesn't come out express itself in one format. So it it bleeds into all areas of your life. So what happens is is that um most actors I know will find another creative outlet. Now, some have to be engaged in the in the in the in that process. So they'll do whatever they have to to be working on materials or scenes or do webinars or do Zoom classes or whatever it is to keep themselves engaged in that way. But a lot of times they'll find other creative outlets, whether it's whether it's cooking, whether it's painting, whether it's music, whether it's um dance, whatever it is, whether it's the the home arts where you make things, you know, uh quilting or or um knitting or or sewing or whatever it is, as long as you're creatively engaged with yourself on some level and there's an expression and you're engaged in that creative process, you can find your way through that. So I have a feeling a lot of people during this past year have found other ways in which to um engage with themselves creatively. Um and coming up with uh one of the things is the whole landscape has completely has completely opened up. So as far as like podcasts, for instance, here or web shows, or putting stuff on Facebook or YouTube or whatever it is, people are becoming a lot more creative because they have to about getting content, quote unquote, out there. So they'll they'll they'll find you you you find ways to to engage with yourself where you you really do go nuts. You go buggy. Does that answer what you're saying?

SPEAKER_01 30:38

That's not great. No, that's and and I've I find that the actors in general, I'm I'm always surprised, but then I'm surprised that I'm surprised at how multi-talented most of you are. Like you're not because you're using your voice and you're using your bodies as a tool, as an instrument when you're acting on stage. But often you you can sing and play music, you know, behind you. You the podcast people can't see this, but there's a guitar, and like like how multifaceted most of the actors who are at the top are who can do so many different things that it feels like that's probably how you guys are pushing yourselves. Writers, most of us can can write, we can barely do anything else in life, and that's why we write. We actually are the most single-focused individuals that I know, but that the actors are so and so yeah, it does sound like it sounds like there's just this been this desire to put out, you know, to to do new kinds of output. Have you been doing that yourself? Like a like uh besides being on this podcast, have you been kind of new outlets of of exploration and and for you to express your art?

SPEAKER_04 31:38

Yes, yes. Um I have I have a um I have a band of um initially it's a blues band, but during this whole past year I've kind of been reworking it, and I've um I've never um written songs before because I never felt like well, everybody has pretty much said it in a much better and more interesting way than me. So, you know, and I I come from Chicago, which has got a lot of the blues, the classic blues stuff. So um I uh I started with some of my guys and my band, some of the other players, um, learning what the process is of writing songs. So, which I didn't, you know, I didn't really know much about. And I'm not I don't really play a particular instrument very well. I mean, I know basic chords and some basic theory, but I mostly learn by ear. So um, in terms of the songs that we've sung and put together, so I've had a band for about over 10 years, and we're I'm kind of reworking it that I, you know, I would do, I would set up gigs whenever I was um not working on a show or a film or something like that. And so this whole past year has been kind of um you know, kind of cracked that all open. And so I've been learning, and that's been fascinating and really fun.

SPEAKER_01 33:05

Oh, sounds amazing.

SPEAKER_04 33:07

Yeah, it's fun. And there's the other thing that's so nice about it is the fact that there's no pressure about it for me. Like I'm not um uh would it be, you know, if I can break even with the band, I'm good, you know. Um, will I ever be really making a living the way I do as an actor? I I I I don't I don't think so. And um I don't feel like I because my um um that this is another actually another component I think that a lot of times it's hard for actors just to shift off of that for a minute when dealing with quote unquote rejection or failure is how much your self-worth is tied into the job and is tied into um being quote unquote successful, whatever that word means to the person, you know, that if you if um who you are is defined on whether you're working or you get a job or you're doing well in auditions, you're gonna be in a lot of pain. And it's gonna be really it's gonna be really hard and it's gonna be very, very difficult to um find your way through, you know, every time you don't get a job or you don't get rejected, or if you get in a job and then they fire you for whatever reason, you know.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

So that's an aspect that I've found fascinating since moving to LA. So I've known Noah for four years or whatever it is, and he's only worked for about a third of that. And and again, you know, not through any thought of his own, obviously, because that's the industry. Um, and lots of other people I know in the business are always sort of between jobs.

SPEAKER_04 34:54

And yeah, but he's like he's you know, he's the one percent.

unknown 34:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:59

The jobs that he's had, they're I mean, you're really successful. You are, you know, given our industry, and you you know that to have to have worked with the people that you work with and the the shows that you were connected to and have and the stuff. I mean, that's not small stuff, man. You're the cream of the crop as far as that goes. People aspire to that to have had the experiences that you had working with the people you did.

SPEAKER_01 35:29

I I think that this is why this is so super important to have this conversation, because I my wife sometimes asked me, Why are you so open on social media about your failures? You know, you should present more successes. And I'm like, I feel like people need to know what the process is that you know, you've had 83 amazing credits, but there's been down periods. I've I've worked on such great.

SPEAKER_04 35:52

Oh, mostly it's down people, unless you're like Tom Hanks, yeah, you know, or you're you're an A-lister, most people have down time.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

Well, yeah, I mean, so everybody does. And so there's an illusion, right? That's what I'm trying to get at is this illusion of success is that, and you were you were actually just commenting on it that we are set to a certain degree, maybe not our own sense of self-worth, but your your self-worth in this town is sometimes tied up with the image of success.

SPEAKER_04 36:21

Optics are huge. Optics are huge. You know, even like the title of your podcast, Rejection, Failure, and Adversity, you know, if some actors could go, oh, well, I don't know that I want to do that because it's gonna seem like I'm I'm rejected a lot. And in terms of the optics of um how that could seem, they, you know, because it's particularly now more than ever, it's all about how how um how one's seen in the industry. I mean, we uh had a uh a president who was who is a reality star, you know, and he had uh you know, it compounds me. So every and if have you ever seen have you seen that documentary Social Dilemma?

SPEAKER_01 37:11

No, my my sister's been dying for me to watch it. I know I know what's it about, I haven't seen it yet, but I keep on meeting to you.

SPEAKER_04 37:17

Watch it though, because it's it really speaks to what's happening with like social media and how everybody's truth is altered, yeah, yeah, and how you come across and how you're a pre. That's why I mean people can buy literally buy followers. If you buy, you can buy for like $500 um a hundred thousand followers. I mean, it's it's just it the the optics of things are so huge. I don't know that they ever haven't not been um you know, in the history of you know, gossip and how things are perceived have always impacted people, you know. Um but now it's just you know, we have our own sort of um crazy world with certain with social media. And I mean, actors even have in their contracts now where they have to they have to be engaging on Twitter or social media when their shows are airing so they can interact with people. I mean, it's there's there's this huge thing about it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

I was I was there when that started. I was working on Scandal when Carrie Washington, when you know, such super talented actress and super smart human being, said, What if we use social media to just interact with our our fans and a but in a very authentic way, not disingenuous to try to get numbers, but just we can. We're on social media, most of us, and we can speak to our fans in a way that we've never been able to before in the audience members. So what if during the nights that our show airs, we all become available for questions on Twitter. We do like a live tweeting thing. And Shonda's like, who was an early adapter to social media, adopter to social media, was like, that sounds great, or they kind of came up with the idea together and then they drafted me and said, What do you think about all of this? And I had like six followers, I had no idea how to use any of this stuff. I'm like, this sounds great, let's give it a try. And it was this huge thing that changed the landscape of not only the show, but all shows that came next had to now do this thing, and now it's built into con and it's it's now it's its own beast. And Shonda was was very protective of her actors when she when people did not want to do it. This the studios would start to really want to get people to always do this all the time. And she's like, the moment one of my cast members is doing it because they're being forced to do it, you're gonna smell it from afar, and the whole the whole house of cards is gonna fall down, it's gonna feel disingenuous. She knew the importance of authenticity from the get-go in in in social media, but yeah, now it's this it's it's it's inescapable and it's inseparable.

SPEAKER_04 40:02

Yeah, and it's it's about it's about money, you know, for like Instagram and Twitter and all that stuff. The clicks is that's where the money is. So they shift and adjust so that you'll keep coming back again and again, and it's an addictive dynamic now. But as far as one's connection as far as to you know, handling the rejection, you learn more from perceived mistakes or failures than you do with success.

SPEAKER_02 40:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:33

And there's such judgment, and there's also uh not understanding the process is is is a is a linear kind of thing, and it's the be-all and end all is not in this moment, and that's it's it's hard.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

I I feel like it's gone on a curve. So I think there was a time where everything was perceived success. And I think for some people they still think that's a thing, but I think the two things that have made me realize that that things have moved on a little bit. A, my own story. So I got I got laid off this year as part of a COVID thing, and it's the first time I've ever lost a job. Now, obviously, for you guys, you know, you you lose more jobs than you get, but you know, working in government and working in what was a successful industry, I'd never lost a job until I got laid off. And I wrote a thing on LinkedIn, which is I know a platform that isn't moving up in your world, but obviously it is in in sort of more linear business. And I I said to someone, I'm gonna write a thing saying, you know, here's five things I've learned about being laid off. And everyone's like, no, no, don't do that. You know, people want to know that you're in a good job and you're not gonna get hired for a new job if you admit that you've lost your job. You know, I wrote this thing and I had the most extraordinary outpouring of support from people. Um, and then even actually with this podcast, the same thing. We've been approached by, you know, when this started, this whole concept started, Noah wrote a joking, like, you know, I want to scream into the Hollywood Abyss, and loads of people said that's a good idea for a podcast. And then people said, Hey, can we come on and talk about it? And they've been very open about it. So I think, and maybe it's mostly sensible writers, and maybe the actors, you know, yourself potentially uh excluded from this haven't caught up, but actually admitting that there's lots of rejection in between.

SPEAKER_04 42:10

I think people have I mean that's the thing about this industry. If you're gonna be in any of the arts, if you're gonna be in this industry, you have to know that part of the framework, part of the territory, part of the emotional landscape of this industry is learning how to deal with rejection and redefining that word, even losing it from your vocabulary, so that it's it's not something that um that it's constantly, you know, like your your um uh what you were just describing is how if you didn't get uh your writing wasn't accepted or whatever, it just fueled you to continue to press on. Part of part of um there's a tenacity that you have to develop in this industry, and you have to get really sort of tough, and you have to change it where it's like you rewire your self-emotion, like, okay, I didn't get that one, all right. I'm gonna keep going. I gotta do this, all right. I'm gonna try this one. What about this? And there's almost a kind of numbers game on a certain level that if you at a certain point you're you um will get the job if you keep putting yourself out there and out there and out there at a certain point. And if you don't, then at a at a certain point go, okay, I'm calling it in. You know, I'm I I don't want to do it. There's a lot of actors at a certain point that go, this just feels bad. I don't want to do it anymore. Life is too short. So you you leave or you pause or you go, you know, I'm not gonna pursue it anymore. If somebody calls me to come in, then maybe I will. But but a lot of people, it's it's keeping it in a larger, and I think that's part of the maturing process emotionally is knowing that your job and your work is an aspect of Your life. It's not your entire life. And that who you are is not defined by one particular thing. So that it's it's um you keep it in a balance, you keep that perspective, which also helps you to be able to keep showing up and keep um you know putting yourself out there with with auditions, you know.

SPEAKER_01 44:22

I I I I mean I think to to that to that, you know, to what you're talking about and to what Dan was talking about too, about the illusion of when it looks like you're working and when you're not, we're always artists, right? I'm always a writer, whether I'm getting paid or not. My day job is to write six hours a day. Sometimes I'm getting paid a lot of money to do that, and sometimes I'm getting paid nothing to do that. And it doesn't change the nature of what I'm doing on a daily basis every single day. I think for the actor too, we are you you're not defined by your credits, you're defined by who you are and what you're doing. And every day you're you're in the game, you're in the game, so to speak. Um, but I do I do we have one uh final wrap-up question that we ask everybody, and we've been touching upon it all along. But what is the one piece of advice that you would give uh somebody who's just entering the business?

SPEAKER_04 45:09

Don't take it personally. Don't take it personally. I mean, it's um um, you know, keep keep learning your craft. I mean, keep every uh every experience is a way of learning you how learning how to get better at what you do. Um and to continue to sort of fine-tune it and and find uh be in reality, which means, you know, if you're if you're not talented, um uh well actually there's if you're not talented, you're not gonna get the job, so you're gonna leave the industry anyway anyway. But there's there's there's there's a couple things I would say. Um as I said, one is not to take it personally. Two, this business is based on relationships. So um be a decent human being, you know. You say please and thank you, have manners. If someone helps you, you say thank you. If they give you a role, you send them a gift. You get a series regular, get them a car. You know what I mean? It's just kind of like in the sense that however they help you, you know, make sure that you let them know in the appropriate manner, the appreciative. We we can't, it's like help and be helped, because we can't you can't you can't navigate through this industry by yourself. So, you know, help other people and allow yourself to be helped in that kind of way. And and um find the ways to keep yourself grounded and make sure that you've got uh you know people around you that you know love you, period. Doesn't matter what you do, they'll say no to you, that you can be yourself with, you know, that kind of stuff. You you keep that emotional of that real emotional support around you. And develop, you know, if you there's a lot of people, writers are traditionally, I think there are um real introverts. And there's a lot of actors that are absolutely that way. They're not they're not um extroverts by any means, and um it's learning those skills, those social skills, because there's the there's the the job when you get it, where you can engage with yourself creatively, and then there's getting the job because it's show business and there's a real business component to it. So your talent and your artistry, it doesn't matter. Um, that's a given. So it's about developing those, um learning learning the business and how you navigate with that, you know, from that sort of standpoint. And a lot of it has to do with how your your skills at being able to interact and deal with people.

SPEAKER_01 48:01

We've gotten a lot of answers to this question, and this is actually probably one of my favorite answers of just be a good person because people forget that part, and that's becoming more and more important as I go into deeper and deeper into this business that it is about who you are as you we're everyone's talented, it's not the talent level anymore. You have to be a good person, and I think we need to emphasize that. I really appreciate you you you letting me.

SPEAKER_04 48:22

Well, I mean, I had you know, I did a um uh a film years ago with Harold Ramis, and um it was called Multiplicity. It was with uh Michael Keaton and um uh Andy McDowell, and you know, we're standing in Video Village, which is, you know, for those of people that don't know, basically what it is is the it's a it's a whole series of monitors where the director and producers and people watch the take, you know, when you're you're filming it. And so I was kind of hanging out out there with him, and he was saying, you know, um, I I don't know how we got on it, but he was talking about um, you know, you spend when you do a film, when you do a feature film, or if you're doing a series, you know, which is an endurance game too, in that sense, he was saying that, you know, you have to see these same people for over a year. You have to see their faces on the screen, you have to interact with them, you have to work, you know, with them. So there were no assholes on his set. He wouldn't, he wouldn't, he won't tolerate that because it's a colossal waste of time. Clint Eastwood is the same way when I did Sully. He'd been working with the same people for over eight films, at least eight films. Everybody was confident, competent, they were polite, they knew what they were doing, they knew how to, they were, they knew their jobs, they knew how to interact with people, there was kindness, people were, and he wouldn't tolerate. You're an asshole, you were fired. So you can have the screaming sets where people are just in a state of craziness, but mostly, and I've had a couple jobs where I I was hired because of how I conducted myself on the set, and because I knew how to interact with people in a certain way. So it's I would opt more for those kinds of ways of moving through the world. Um, but it does, it does make a difference how you conduct yourself.

SPEAKER_00 50:27

You know, I can I've never worked with you on a set, but I can safely say in real life, you know, I've been for dinner at your house, and you are a very nice person. You have excellent manners. You're oh well, thank you. That's very joyful. I feel like I'm a work in progress. My wife and I talk about it quite a lot, actually. That we've met lots of people here, obviously. And you know, we obviously we haven't seen you guys since the beginning of the pandemic, but yeah, um, she always comments to me that you're the one of the nicest people she's met in Los Angeles.

SPEAKER_04 50:56

Um, that's so lovely. Well, your wife is so gracious and beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 51:01

So it's like you're you're nice, you're nice on set and nice in real life. I can tell the listeners that. So um you have to have to figure out when to pick your battles, you know.

SPEAKER_04 51:11

That would be the other thing.

SPEAKER_00 51:13

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_04 51:15

It's been oh, it's lovely good talking with you.

SPEAKER_01 51:21

All right, that's a wrap on this episode. If you want to leave us any feedback, go to hollywoodabys.com.

SPEAKER_00 51:27

And if you'd like to subscribe, we won't stop you. And if you want to leave a review, we certainly won't stop you. In fact, we'll be incredibly grateful.

SPEAKER_01 51:34

And we have a couple of thank yous before we go completely. We want to thank Games Launch for the intro and outro music. We want to thank both our wives who allowed us to hide in our respective basements while we record all of these interviews.

SPEAKER_00 51:48

If you want to find us on Twitter and join in the conversation, I'm at Dan Rutstein, and Noah is at M Ebslin. Please come and find us, please say hello, and if you really want to, please give Noah a job.

SPEAKER_01 51:59

Yes, I am looking for a job of any sort. I can polish shoes, I can write copy, I can even be in a writer's room. So if that's the case, feel free to reach out.

SPEAKER_00 52:10

But you definitely can't podcast.

SPEAKER_01 52:12

I definitely this is not the thing that I do well.