Take 78 - Writer and Director Peter Kosminsky, White Oleander, The Undeclared War

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for sure, dozens of unproduced scripts literathing the floor.

SPEAKER_00 0:14

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

For every success, there is most, sometimes even years, failure. This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

That's the normal thing we have to be able to persevere. Like everything in our business, your hands can count. It all bounces off you.

SPEAKER_03 0:40

That bounce is taking because that doesn't happen overnight. I was being told by my manager it's yours to lose. And I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking like, well, that's it for me. I blew my one big shot. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Screaming into the Hollywood Abyss is brought to you by Scriptation. The Emmy Emmy.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

It sounds awful when you say it. Let somebody with a more charming accent do this bit. Screaming into the Hollywood Abyss is brought to you by Scriptation, the Emmy Award-winning app for anyone that reads scripts. Makes notes, organise them into layers, and save hours of time by automatically transferring those notes into new script revisions. Sither listeners can get a free month of Scriptation by going to scriptation.com backslash Sither. Now that's how you do it, Noah. Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss and I don't know about you, but I certainly enjoyed last week's episode with Amy. Unfortunately, it's fantastic. When I say I don't know about you, I'm talking you, the audience, but I should probably ask Noah. His opinion has some validity. What did you think, Noah?

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Oh, I must A, I'm assuming by the response that the majority of our listeners did enjoy that uh interview. And I I I had a great time talking to Amy. I've been wanting to talk to her for ages. She's somebody I've I've known about since the beginning of my career. She's somebody that I followed. If you want a career to emulate, it's definitely uh Amy Berg is the person to do so. And anybody that I spoke to about the podcast, many people know her. She's a very well-known person uh in this industry. We're both pleased that we had her on and just could only say about how nice and great she is. So I so it's and definitely was an Amy Berg love fest uh coming from our our you know, the our audience, and and you know, a little bit from you, a little little, I don't know, starstruck's not the right word, but but thrilled to have someone like her on our show.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Absolutely. So for this week's episode, this is a this is part of a new series we're doing called um, I think we're just finalizing the title. It's some version of Much Better Without Noah, which is something that a lot of our audience have been clamoring for, which is for me to do some solo interviews. Um this week we have a fantastic guest and a fantastic interview. Not one terrible question in there, because uh Noah was unavailable.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

Well, I think I was in the middle of my move or something. We we and by the way, since I am the Hollywood part of this podcast and you are the abyss part of this podcast, we might need to change the title for justice this week to screaming into the abyss with Dan Rudstein or Screaming maybe from the abyss. What do you think? Well, we're still workshopping the new title.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

We are no, you I mean, this is the the problem, you know, when you uh when your co-host is uh I think he describes himself as nowadays very important. Uh sometimes these things happen. And uh I think he had a production meeting that overran, and at the end of the day, this is this is a this is a hobby podcast, and uh Noah's got a day job. I mean he's moved all the way to Hawaii to be in part of the team for NCISY, so it'd be a shame to say, I'm really sorry I can't come to this very important production meeting for your multi-million dollar show on one of the biggest networks in America because I'm doing a podcast. Uh not and obviously that would be the wrong thing to say anyway, but when everyone knows that the co-host is actually the more capable interviewer, rightly his showrunners would say, Don't worry, Dan's got this. So that's what we ended up going with. So it is me, it is another British person, it is Peter Kosminsky, who uh done some fantastic work, including The Undeclared War, which you'll hear is one of my parents' favourite shows and now one of my favourite interviews. So thank you, Noah, for not being there, giving me space to do this the right way, and please enjoy this episode. Thank you so much. Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, and I am always delighted when we have British guests on the show. Um, so I'd like to introduce today's guest. Now, normally Noah does the intros, but Noah is stuck in a production meeting and can't join us, so the quality of discussion will be British level, not British level diluted with an American. So I'm delighted to have on the show Peter Kosminsky, a British writer, director, and producer who has led on such projects as White Oleander, Warriors, Wolf Hall, The State, and my parents' favourite show, The Undeclared War. Welcome to the show, Peter. Thanks, Dan. So um I was back in England recently, and my uh I was staying at my mother and father's house, and they said, Oh, have you heard about this show? It's called the it's called something like the undeclared war, and you'll love it because you used to work for the government, and it's all this cyber warfare GCHQ stuff and so on. And um so as one always should, however old you are, you should listen to your parents. So I watched it, and indeed it is excellent. And and when I told them that you were coming on the show, they were delighted. So uh so you're pleasing my parents.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

Well, thank you. Send send them my regards.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

So, Peter, obviously the obvious place to start with somebody who's had a distinguished career like yourself is how did studying chemistry at university set you up for a career working in entertainment?

SPEAKER_02 6:20

Well, how long have you got uh I had a very unhappy um romance in my first year at university in England, and I and the romance came to an end at the end of the first year. So I arrived back at university in the second year, and I needed, yeah, studying chemistry, which is a subject I was rapidly losing interest in. Sorry, chemistry. And I had to find a new group of friends because all the friends I'd made at college were all built around that relationship that I'd had in the first year. So I thought, what can I do? What can I do? So I thought, what had I done? I well, I did a little bit of lighting in student plays when I was a uh in school, you know, in high school. And so I sort of blagged my way into the student theater at Oxford and uh bigged up the non-existence experience that I'd had and got involved in lighting in in sort of undergraduate uh plays, essentially. Being Oxford, it was all pretty classical stuff, as you can imagine. And um, I don't know, one thing led to another. You know, I got I became a sort of theater producer uh in the student world, and that led to me uh bizarrely as a chemist applying to the BBC for one of their graduate trainee schemes. I was fired several times on the grounds of being completely incompetent, which I was. Um, but somehow I sort of survived um and here I am.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

Extraordinary. So you didn't grow because obviously some people grow up thinking all I want to do in life is you know work in the business, but for you it was a distraction that ended up being an incredible successful career.

SPEAKER_02 8:16

Well, I mean how much how much honesty do you want? You know, the the honest truth is I I just didn't it never occurred to me that I could be a film director. You know, I like so many people of my generation, you know, I used to go to the cinema regularly off, you know, most weekends. I looked up at the big screen, you know, it was a magical world. And I was a little science student, you know, at some sort of small school uh uh in the English countryside. I mean, it just seemed like I it wouldn't even have been worth me thinking, oh, I'd like to do that, because it was so inconceivable. And yet one kind of mishap, one misstep, one sacking, and trust me, I was sacked quite a few times, um led to you know another slightly weird job. And eventually I did bizarrely end up directing film crews and then eventually directing actors. Uh and I stumbled. Um, you can only call it that, because there was no calculation, there was no sort of grand plan. It was an anti-plan, really. I stumbled into doing something that I turned out, you know, to have a kind of affinity for. So I've been incredibly lucky. I'm lucky enough to do what I genuinely believe is the best job in the world. And for some bizarre reason that I still can't understand, I have not yet, though I expect it every day. I have not yet been found out.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

Extraordinary. So could we I think we have to talk about you being fired. Um, you've mentioned it twice now, so I feel like you just want me to ask you about the details. So can you give us a couple of examples of your early firings?

SPEAKER_02 10:08

There are so many. Um two examples. Okay. Uh so I was, yes, I was accepted by the BBC on one of their extremely prestigious graduate training schemes. You know, thousands apply, very few are chosen. Uh, and I did two years of different uh internships in different parts of the BBC, radio, television, um external broadcasting, you know, kind of BBC's equivalent of a voice of America, that kind of thing. It was a kind of glory route, you know, it's it was a bit like um start, you know, the boss's son starting in the post room, working their way up to you know, to to CEO or something. Everyone knew these trainees were on a sort of express elevator to the top floor. So I I completed it and I went to so I wanted to work in the drama department, you know, because that was my thing, it always has been. So I got a job, not surprisingly, in the drama department, and uh I was fired with within three months on the grounds of being complete crap. Can I say complete crap on your show?

SPEAKER_01 11:18

You certainly can.

SPEAKER_02 11:19

Um I I was um so after you know, having had this glory route after three months, I was out on my ear. Um and uh, you know, if we're getting into it, you know, it was it was unfair, or the reason I was kicked out, but but you know, it didn't really matter. I I was out. So I I looked around for a job. I was offered a job selling um satellites by British aerospace. I was offered a job by a sort of what eventually became ITV, you know, British commercial television's um breakfast TV program. But in the end, there's somebody from the BBC who I'd met on this sort of tour round said, hey, we just spent an enormous amount of money training you. You can't just piss off and go and work for the opposition. Uh so I was I was dragged back in uh to work as the most junior researcher on on the program, which you may just I think you're too young to remember, it was the BBC One early evening current affairs program called Nationwide. Um and I was a researcher on that. Um, and I lasted as a researcher precisely one day. Um yeah, if funny now, not very pleasant at the time. No, I bet. Um and the reason was that I suggested, you know, our job was to suggest items for for broadcast on the evening, you know, it's early evening mainstream channel. And my proposal, I was proud of it. But now I have to explain for our American uh viewers that a little bit of context. We have a thing called value-added tax in the UK. It's like a purchase tax, tax you pay on stuff you buy. But in the very early days back then, it was only really supposed to be charged on luxuries. But they were charging it on, I hope I can say this on your show, they were charging it on women's tampons. Um and um I thought that was weird. I didn't think that was a luxury, at least not for 50% of the population. So I said, why don't we make an item on our early evening current affairs show about why it's not legitimate to charge VAT on tampons? And um the shit hit the fan. You know, the it's like the reaction was, you know, and some guy said, you know, one of the editors said, My mother lives in Skumfall, doesn't want to sit and listen to an item about bloody tampons while she's having her tea. You know, so so that was me out. You know, and they said, Well, you know, this guy comes from drama, he's obviously sort of artsy fartsy guy. So we'll make him a director. So they gave me these, you know, little little sort of on-the-day films that you shoot in the morning, edit in the afternoon, and transmit in the evening. And that's essentially through through my second firing in the space of about a month, I uh I got to become a albeit the most junior director working for the BBC. I I started on the road to being a director. I have other firings if you'd like.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

No, no, I think that that should keep us going for now. Uh but it's worth saying, I think you're a man ahead of your time because the the VAT on tampons story, it feels like it was about five years ago, became a huge issue. Um and was talked about on every network and every television. So actually, if they'd listened to your idea, then they would have it would have probably been good for their viewers. Or maybe you were just too far ahead. But um no, that that that's extraordinary. I think I guess the fact that you uh you were fired twice, but then were given this chance to to direct, which probably is the right place for you in the world of entertainment. Um were you discouraged enough to think, you know what? I think I might walk away and maybe use my chemistry degree and go and work for one of the big pharmaceutical companies? Or or did you think, you know, actually I'm gonna I've got through two firings and I'm still here, I'm gonna keep going.

SPEAKER_02 15:29

Well, I had walked away. You know, I had got the offer of another well, two other jobs actually. Um and I was I was brought back. Um actually what happened was kind of weird. My then wife bumped into a guy I'd worked for at the BBC while I was on these internships, and he asked how I was, and he was like the the controller of BBC too. He was a very senior person back in. We're talking about the 1980s here, and my wife um said, Well, you know, he's just been fired, and and he, you know, he was the one that insisted I came back. And you know, the truth is it's not it doesn't make an amusing line, but the truth is I had joined the BBC because I really believed in the BBC, I believed in public service broadcasting, and I was absolutely heartbroken that that it had all got having started in such a sort of stellar way that that it had all gone so horribly wrong. So although I was embarrassed and humiliated and and frankly frightened to go back in there, you know, having failed so so palpably. I I suppose maybe it says something about my character. I don't know. I didn't I didn't in the end, I didn't say, hey, you know what? I've got these other jobs, bye-bye. I I did go back in and try and tough it out. So I suppose that maybe that does say something in the end.

SPEAKER_01 17:03

No, indeed. Now, obviously, in terms of the material that you've worked on over the years, you haven't necessarily always picked the lightest of subject matters. Um and you know, I know the amount of research that would have had to go into obviously particularly the undeclared war, but also obviously something like the state. Does the sort of chemistry background, is that why you're comfortable doing deep research? Obviously, the one day as a researcher probably wasn't the when you learned to do research so well. But you know, what gives you that because not everyone's got the the patience or the ability to really get into a subject in the way that you have had to do? What where do you think that came from?

SPEAKER_02 17:46

I think you're right, and I you know, I think I was lucky enough, but and it really was more by luck than judgment to stumble into the right place for me. I mean, what does my job require? Somebody doing what I do and have been doing in one form or another for about 40 years now. What does it require? It requires a technical understanding of cameras and lights and sound and lenses, filters, and well, my father was his passion was photography, and I learned a lot, you know, in the dark room with him. And um I think my technical background definitely helped in terms of understanding the technology first of film, which is what I worked on originally, and then you know, more more obviously more rigid, more recently digital. Um but I also needed uh a creative side, you know, to direct actors, to to just conceive of of of and to write, you know, because I I write the things that I direct these days. Well, my my maternal grandmother was a was a a well-known opera singer, you know, that uh uh elsewhere on that family line was was was quite a well-known middle European um composer. So I have artist I have an artistic side coming from the my mother's side of the family in that in that respect. And yeah, I think you know, when you've been spending time in the laboratories and and and sort of researching things like quantum physics, you know, you you learn how to research. And although I I've probably not been doing much quantum physics research in the last 40 years, um, though funnily enough, there was has been an element of that uh in the cyber world, but that's another matter. Uh just the techniques that I learned in how to sort of navigate your way through a dense amount of research material has stood me in good stead.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

Yeah. Now, English people traditionally aren't very good at answering questions like this, but what what is it that you think that you're particularly good at? So um that makes you has made you as successful as it is. What what skill have you got that others haven't that have allowed you to have this sort of career, do you think?

SPEAKER_02 20:17

You're right, that's not an easy thing for an English person to answer, or maybe anyone to answer, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

I think Americans are fine with it.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

Yeah. Well listen, I will I will um I'll qualify my answer with a slightly more sort of disparaging element and then try to answer your question. But the one thing I'm clearly not is is a super gifted or or uh um unusually brilliant visual director. You know, I'm okay, I can put a story together visually. Uh, I know how to do it pretty well now, having been doing it for so long. But you know, when I look at um the work of you know Denny Villeneuve, for example, you know, I think is the sort of greatest director working at the moment, you know, it's it's a complete, it's not even like a different league, it's a different planet, you know. Um but what I think I am really good at, actually, if I'm honest, and inspired to answer by your question, is is directing actors. Maybe it's the chemistry, but you know, what I was Phil, I was trained to do was observe. I've always thought of myself as a kind of trained observer. And what you really need to do, you have to have a certain empathy to you know to direct actors, but you also have to watch really carefully and really watch the eyes, you know, and see see right into the soul, which is where that performance ignites, you know. Um and what is a good actor's director? Well, it it's not rocket science. Actually. No, what do actors want? They want somebody who creates an atmosphere in which they where where they feel valued and where that where they can work without sort of feeling like they're the sort of last-minute bolt-on to an essentially create technically creative process. So, in other words, where they feel it's about them. They want somebody who gets the script right so that they can deliver some lines that you know that aren't going to sound like lumps of coal rolling around in their mouths. And they want somebody who can add value. One of the toughest lessons I've had to learn over the years is if you haven't got anything useful to say as a director when directing an actor, shut the up. You know, you sort of start off thinking, oh my god, I'm the director, I've got to say something. You don't have to say something, not if you don't have if you've cast the right people, and I spend a lot of time auditioning a lot. If you cast the right people, if you've got the script right, and if you have nothing constructive to say, say nothing except be encouraging, you know. Um, and if you do have something to say, and this is where you get right down to it, really, is the the question is, is it useful for the actor? In other words, does it add value? Does it make them better objectively and in their opinion? Or do you just obfuscate? You know, do you do you do you do you sort of puff smoke into their eyes, really? And one of the things that I try to do when I'm auditioning is give actors notes and see how they respond. Because, yeah, they want to get the part, but I want to make sure I'm auditioning as well. I want to make sure that I'm the right director for them. In other words, when I give them notes, do they get better, stay about the same, or get worse? And there is only one of those three options where I should cast that actor. If my notes are sort of not really helping or hindering, then they should find another director to work with who can help. If I'm making things worse, in other words, I give some notes and the performance tail uh nosedives, do not cast that actor, because I'll I'll just make it work. But if if my notes make things a bit better, then that's a dynamic, that's a relationship, a director-actor relationship that we can work with on the set.

SPEAKER_01 24:53

That's fat that's fascinating. Uh, am I allowed to ask, given the quality of actors you've worked with, both British and American, am I allowed to ask do you find it easier working with actors from one nationality or another in terms of given the point it's about your relationship with them? Do you you know do you do better with British actors because we all have this understanding? Or actually, given you've helped American actors and actresses be nominated for awards, I imagine you can do it with everybody.

SPEAKER_02 25:26

No, that there there is a serious point there, which is obviously why you're asking it, because your questions are not stupid. Um one of the reasons why I I don't live and work in America. Well, I have worked in America and it was a very happy experience, but why I didn't sort of, you know, sell up and move to Los Angeles is about culture. It's about intrinsically understanding the culture that you're trying to interpret. I was born in Britain, although, you know, I don't have in terms of my background, I don't have a drop of of British blood in me, not a drop. But I was I was actually born in London, spent my whole life really, bar, you know, the odd year here and there in Britain. I un for for all its faults, and they are on display at the moment. Um I understand, I think, as well as most uh British culture, British mores, the British people. I'm no expert, but but you know, you know what it's like. You know, when when you return to Britain, Dan, it just there's just a sort of click that you get it because you grew up there. You know, I don't get that in America. Now, you know, I'm a massive consumer of American movies and TV shows. So I see a lot of product interpreting American culture. I probably understand it reasonably well, as much as a foreigner can, but I don't have that innate understanding. And that will always be a slight obstacle for me in terms of directing Americans. I've done it, I've directed some extraordinary, you know. The work I did with Michelle Pfeiffer, you know, would would feel like one of the highlights of my career, and and and Robin Wright and Renee Zellweger equally. Um was an amazing experience. Um, but perhaps I get the best of both worlds because uh the actor that I probably most closely associated with these days is Samark Rylance. He he was born in Britain, grew up for most most of his childhood and early adult life in America, and and has more recently returned to Britain. So maybe, I don't know, maybe that's my crossover relationship.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Yeah, fascinating. So uh one thing that I mean, I'm not in the industry, so I don't necessarily understand the differences in the same way, but if if my co-host Noah was here today, he would say to you something along the lines of the different skill sets required for writing and directing are I mean, obviously there's there are people who have done both, obviously, very successfully, but they are they are different skill sets, and obviously when you're doing a TV series and there's multiple episodes and so on, how do you how do you get that balance? Particularly because as you said, you came from sort of the technical directing side, but obviously what you've written has been extraordinary. So how do you marry those two different uh skills? Good question.

SPEAKER_02 28:47

Good question. The thing is, you have to be a bit of a chameleon in my job anyway. So I am being you know, you can c you can call it a number of things, but let's say a journalist. I'm interviewing people, I'm researching things, I'm reading stuff, reading sources, preparing interviews, carrying out interviews, writing them up. It it's it's what what you're doing now, it's journalism. In a minute, I'll put that role to a side and I'll be a writer. And in that time, I will just be a writer, and I'll be reading research, and the fact that I gathered it is helpful, but it wouldn't be prevent me doing that job if someone else had gathered it. And I am being a writer. I'm sitting here at this computer I'm talking using to talk to you now, and I'm writing the show. And then at a certain point, I will stop being a writer and I will become a director. And the frustrating part there is I can't talk to the writer and bounce ideas off the writer as I used to before, you know, when I worked with other writers, which is an exciting process. And then after that, I'll after I finished shooting and editing, I sort of go back almost to where I was as a journalist researching it when I start publicizing the show. Because for a while, the fact that the story is based very, very heavily in intense research conducted over several years, in the case of this show and actually most previous shows I've done. But when I get on the set, it's irrelevant. I'm just the director, it's a script, and we direct the script. You know, all those are like sort of like I like I came in and was given a script to direct. But then somehow I have to drag myself back to that state of mind where I was assembling all the material so I remember all the complexities of it, so that I can talk about it in interviews like this. Well, not so much like this, because this is more about you know, life, death, and the universe. But um most of the interviews I do where I'm I'm just talking about the show, how it came into existence, and you know, what it's supposed to be about, what it's trying to say, what it's trying to achieve. So um I'm very conscious in my role, and not just because I'm a writer and director, even just if I was a director, that I would have to wear different hats at different times, and sometimes kind of almost several hats simultaneously. So it's a complicated job, and that's why I love it, and that's why I've done it for 40 years, because it's endlessly challenging. You sort of have to reinvent the wheel every time you do it. Um, you never get that feeling of being stuck in a rub ever.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

Fantastic. If I can briefly pause to say your answers to my questions are some of the most fascinating, in-depth, and analytical answers I've ever had. So I'm very much enjoying this, if I if I may say.

SPEAKER_02 32:03

Um kind of thank you.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

I'm enjoying it too. Good. We'll keep going a bit longer then. So um, given obviously earlier in your career, you weren't doing both of the jobs. Uh, and then you you did mention that you know you miss perhaps that chance to bounce ideas off with the writer. But given now that you have done the last few as writer and director, are you now sort of trapped and you have to keep doing that? Because because, as you say, that's the challenge for you. And if you were only doing one or the other, you might not get the same not necessarily about control, but the same sense of fulfilment from it.

SPEAKER_02 32:42

Not really, you know. I did Wolf Hall recently, um uh relatively recently, and in fact, we're we're working on the um on this on the next season of that now, which was written by Peter Strong, who's one of our best uh best uh best adapters we have in Britain, uh, adapter of of novels. Um and I loved it. But the truth is, it if I'm being brutally honest, it does come back to what I said earlier that I am not a great, I think I'm adequate, but I'm not a great directing stylist. So I'm not for all the fact that I'm probably quite good at directing actors, I'm not somebody that you would naturally think, well, here's this great script, let's give it to this guy, because he's such a sort of an extraordinary visual director. Where people tend to want to work with me is where I come up with an idea. Uh, and I have um I've had almighty blunders and uh made almighty howlers in my career, but I've also occasionally somehow, I don't know how it happens, sort of read the runes and and seen what's coming uh in a sort of way. So now, you know, after all these years and all these films, there's a certain trust here in Britain, uh, and to some extent overseas, that people will say, well, he's done it before. That idea sounds interesting. Let's give him some seed money, let's let him go and start the process and see where it leads. And then it leads to more research and more research, and then a fee to write, and then eventually the show gets made. So I think that's what people look to me for. It's the complete package, you know, the idea, uh, an economical and effective but thorough and um um believable research process that they can advertise and stand behind. Um, and then an adequate directing module gets tacked on, you know.

SPEAKER_01 34:53

Yeah. Um so you I think you'll expect this now, Peter, given you've literally just said there've been some blunders. I have to obviously then say, Peter, tell me about some of these blunders, or at least one in particular.

SPEAKER_02 35:09

Well, I'll tell you about the most spectacular one. So um I did documentaries for British television for about 10 years and had a certain amount of success at it. And then one of those documentaries transformed into a drama for commercial television in Britain, which was called Shoot to Kill. And if you look at it now, it was a seriously clunkily directed drama. But the subject matter was very timely and politically quite important, and the show did extremely well. As a result of which I was asked by Paramount Pictures to direct an adaptation of Emily Bronte's novel Wuthering Heights, and it was a complete disaster. I was out of my depth. There was some oddities that went on, you know, within the production process, which we needn't talk about, but but suffice it to say that those oddities would have been fine in the hands of a more capable and certainly a more experienced director. I had directed precisely one drama and not a particularly well-made one of that. We're talking about um around about 1990, 1991 here. So I was suddenly thrown into a Hollywood movie being shot in Britain with some extremely well-known actors, um, and I was out of my depth. And the the final result bears uh eloquent testimony to that. So if you you know, and frankly, at the end of it, I uh I basically wanted to quit. I wanted to give up television altogether. That was my low point, that was my nadia. But I had a contract, I had already signed a contract to make another TV show for commercial television, which had had to be put on hold while I went to do Wuthering Heights um at Shepperton. And um so I either had to pay that money back and renegue on an undertaking, or I had to somehow summon my courage and get back on the horse. So I got back on the horse. In fact, I was shooting as Wuthering Heights had its West End at London West End premiere. So I didn't even get to go to the premiere. Um, it was just the very fact of having to do it that forced me to continue and slowly, slowly, slowly. We don't have time to talk through all the steps now, but it was slow. I clawed my way back and rebuilt my confidence, but it was touch and go, really.

unknown 37:57

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 37:58

Extraordinary. Well, thank you for your candor with that answer. Um, it genuinely upsets me to know that we've reached the end of this podcast and we've only got time for one more question. Um, although, as with all your answers, I'm fascinated as what you'll say here. If you could give a single piece of advice to somebody wanting to enter the industry, and I would say, probably as a director or a writer or both, what would that single piece of advice be?

SPEAKER_02 38:27

Okay, I'm gonna give an analogy to help very quickly answer that question. Imagine a guy, and I'm gonna say it's a guy who wants to be a photographer, okay? And money's not a particular problem. So he goes out and he gets all the kit. You know, he gets the latest Super Duper SLR camera, he gets the all the lenses, he gets the lights, he gets the reflectors, you know, he gets the filters, he gets the software so that he can edit the stuff to within an inch of its life. He's got all the kit. Okay, now he's gonna take some photographs, and he realizes he has no idea what photograph to take. And that's my advice. You know, filmmaking, whether it's in television or it's in the cinema or it's on YouTube or it's on Facebook or it's wherever you like, is an incredibly powerful medium. You will be reaching thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people, maybe even millions of people potentially, with what you do. It's power and its reach and its potential influence are enormous. You had better be absolutely sure that you've got something to say with that medium. Do not imagine that you're gonna be a director and get the chair with your name on it and you know have all the kit and all the lenses type of thing. It's it's a medium of communication and a powerful one at that, and it needs to be handled responsibly. So if you're gonna do it, make sure you've got something to say. And if you haven't yet got something to say, get yourself out into the world, knock about the world a bit. It's a bumpy old place out there. And come back when you've got something to say.

SPEAKER_01 40:28

Brilliant. Magnificent answer. Peter Kosminsky, a researcher for a day, but an incredibly talented writer and producer for the next 40 years. Thank you very much indeed for your time. Pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 40:50

Well, that's a wrap on this episode of Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss. As always, it's this episode was brought to you by Scriptation, the screen writing and annotation software that at the very least has made my life easier and will make your life easier as well. Uh, we'd like to thank our wives who put up with us recording these episodes in our offices and basements and closets and bathrooms and anywhere we can get a little space to record an interview. And of course, we want to thank James Launch who provided us with the great intro and outro music.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

Uh, if you want to find us on social media, you can find Noah at NEVslin on Twitter, tweeting a variety of writer-based nonsense and uh some terrible puns and occasionally begging for sponsorship. Uh, if you want more refined tweets, mostly about football and whiskey, you can find me at Dan Rutstein. If you're interested in buying a copy of Scriptation, if you go to www.scriptation.com backslash sither, S-I-T-H-A, you will receive a special discount. Thank you very much for listening. As always, we appreciate you. Uh please give us any feedback, mostly positive stuff about me, and we will see you next week.

SPEAKER_00 42:09

And if you do say a negative thing about Dan, there is a chance I might buy you a free copy of Scriptation. Boxing.