Take 74 - Studio President Toby Gorman, Universal Television Alternative Studio

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for sure, dozens of unproduced scripts littering the floor.

SPEAKER_00 0:14

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_03 0:20

For every success, there is sometimes even being it's failure.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

That's the thing you would have to be able to persevere. Like everything in our business here depends on the out bounces off you.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

That concept stays here because that doesn't happen overnight. I was being told by my manager it's yours to lose. And I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking like, well, that's it for me. I blew my one big shot. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_03 1:00

Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Obitto podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. I am, as ever, your polite British non-entertainment co-host, Dan Rutstein.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

And this week, anyways, I am your industry co-host, Noah Epsilon. Today I'm excited to have on Toby Gorman, the president of Universal Television Alternative Studio. Before he was a studio president, Toby was the producer and or executive producer of such unscripted shows as Celebrity Love Island, American Idol, Hollywood Game Night, Celebrity Family Feud, Death by Magic, Mental Samurai, Celebrity Brain Games, and more. More recently, under his purview at Universal, he was he shepherded the Emmy Award-winning show World of Dance, as well as Making It and the Titan Games. Welcome, Toby.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

Thank you both. What a lovely introduction. I'm going to try and be a polite Englishman.

SPEAKER_03 1:58

I always feel bad for Noah we've got two British people on here because it's, you know, we're obviously working at a different intellectual level and level of civility than he's used to, but that's okay. So we'll start. So I guess I think we're gonna when we've got people who are upstairs, as we like to call it, um uh who have been uh downstairs, um I think uh it's always an interesting place to start. So um sitting where you do now when you are dealing with uh shattering the dreams of somebody on the other side of the table, uh which you have to do because that is uh the business part of show business. Um are you a uh sympathetic shatterer of dreams because you had yours shattered by either sympathetic or unsympathetic people earlier in your career?

SPEAKER_02 2:57

I would like to think so, but but you may need to ask some others for the truth. Um I certainly have experienced those moments. Uh I've been on the receiving end, and it's it's it's helped shape me into the executive I am today and how to deliver the bad news. And I think uh honest, uh open and thoughtful feedback is the key. It's not just a no, but I I think people deserve an explanation as to why it may be a no at this time or for whatever the reason may be. Um, and and I didn't always receive that, you know. Sometimes it was just silence when we pitched something. And that's the worst one for me is please have please take the time and have the respect to just let us know. And that's still too common. So swift, honest feedback that'll help the project either pivot, grow, or or sometimes for them to understand why just it's unlikely for it to move forward anywhere. So uh the short answer is is yeah. I always put myself in their shoes because I've been in those shoes.

SPEAKER_03 4:08

So I can remember when I first had to fire people, I was given varying pieces of advice. And obviously, this isn't quite the same. Firing people and killing projects is they're they're similar, but they're not obviously quite the same. Um and you know, the sort of be sort of quick, be honest, don't go around the houses first, and then sort of let it breathe rather than just you keep talking to fill the silence seem to work broadly well. I mean, when that's happening, if if it's being done face to face, are you because obviously British people are great normally at sort of talking about the weather and football and all that stuff. Are you pretty good at just getting to it? Or do you talk about the weather before you tell them that their project's going nowhere?

SPEAKER_02 4:53

Um, I I think I get to it. Uh uh I'm better than I've ever been, right? It's been an evolving journey. Um, but yeah, I I try and be direct, but it's all in the delivery, right? No matter what news you're sharing, it's about how you're choosing to do it and the words you're selecting. And um, so uh I think beating around the bush ultimately is no fun for anyone, and it is a classic British thing that I've tried to shake. But I've been here for 13 years now. My wife is American, I have American children, so I I'm quite Americanized. Although I sound fairly British, I think I I've I'm these days I'm quite American. So I do try and cut to the chase, especially now in this role uh at the studio, which I've only been in for three years. We are moving so fast and we are growing so fast that we just don't have time uh to beat around the bush.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

I want to circle back to sort of the beginning of your career in a second, because I'm really interested in kind of how you got going. But I want to talk about ambition for a second, because you made an interesting jump from, as Dan said, downstairs, so to speak. I mean, you were producer and then executive producer of a lot of big shows. And then you crossed over to the side that you're on now, which was, you know, you know, approved green lighting projects, killing projects, et cetera, on the studio side. But when did you realize, like on the on the scripted side, we all dream of being showrunner one day? And then we're showrunner, and that's kind of about as high as we're gonna get. We maybe can create another show later on in our lives or two more shows, that's the dream. But we've reached the top of our career trajectory. You reached the top of your career trajectory, being the executive producer of a number of shows, and then you're like, no, this mountain is actually a bit higher. When did you decide that you can make that shift? And how did you even set your mindset that this was a journey that you could take?

SPEAKER_02 6:48

That is a great question, Noah. And and I I was show running very young, and that was a dream of mine. That was certainly what my goal was to run shows. And I got there in the UK at the age of 27, which which was much quicker than I anticipated. And then I did it for some time in the UK and then came out here and did it for some time. And then it just sort of dawned on me one day. Uh, I was showrunning Hollywood Game Night, um, which is now life's come full circle because it's part of the studio right now oversea. But I was the showrunner on that show, and it was the kind of the kind of show I was really looking for, so much fun to make. Jane Lynch is an absolute dream to work with. The team was incredible, we were winning awards, it was everything was just perfect. And then I realized, oh, I I could be doing this on some sort of infinity loop for the next five or ten years. And that wasn't of interest to me. Once I had done a couple of cycles, some some seasons of that show, I kind of realized, oh, I've learned everything there is to learn on this show. I've done I've done this, this is accomplished, and I'm quite goal-oriented as a as an individual, and I and I had this moment in time where I realized I need to reset my goals. This goal I've had of showrunning that I've been pursuing for so long, I sort of done it. And I've been associated in many different roles with many big shows. And and I and I kind of realized in my very early 30s, I I need to look at a bigger picture. And I wouldn't I didn't know what that meant. Um uh, but I was developing in between producing shows, I would partner with colleagues um and do some ad hoc development. And um I thought that might be an interesting thing that opens me up to a new side of the business. I hadn't done much development, I had just done the execution side of production. And then um an opportunity arose at Fremantle, where I had spent many years in the UK and the US, uh, to oversee their development in non-scripted here in America. And I wasn't sure about that at first because I didn't want to be in full-time development because of the absolute rejection, which uh we you know you know a lot about, right? You talk a lot about this. I knew how much rejection would come in a full-time role there, in that type type of full-time role. And so I uh at first was hesitant, but the CEO there at the time, his name's Tom Beers. Um, he really helped tailor that role to my sensibilities. He said, look, if you sell a show, you can get to make it right, you don't just hand it off to another team. So exercise those development muscles, but then when the time comes, you can you can produce and not show run, right? Because that that's full time, but stay across it in a in a sort of leadership role, um, and an executive role. And so that's why I took that job. And that was a that was the moment everything changed for me. And I became an executive, although I didn't feel it at the time, I was still a producer. I was developing and helped produce shows. But of course, I was then cutting my teeth and is uh in an executive capacity, and that then put me on this new trajectory that brings me, I think, around eight, nine years later, um, where I am today.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Thank you for that great answer. I do want to add that I think you're the first person with a British accent to ever say great question, Noah. So I'm gonna take that to my, you know, I'm gonna bank that for the day. I want to, I want to go now, I want to go backwards because I understand, and a lot of our listeners understand, what it means to aspire to be a writer, a director, an actor, that you're pre all of these things before you are these things, right? You have to learn your craft and no one's gonna hire you. I want to talk about being a pre-unscripted producer. You said so you said you started really early. What before you started, you know, as you were setting your ambition, going, I want to be this thing, what did you tell your family you wanted to be exactly? Because we're sort of in the early days of some of these shows, and and how did you get there? And then we'll ask some harder questions about the rejections and failures you met along the way.

SPEAKER_02 11:18

So um, my dad was a director. Uh, he's retired now, but he used to direct a lot of big game shows in the UK. Dan, you'll know many of them. Um uh and so I grew up around the industry, and I have two older brothers who have uh gone into the industry too. One of them is a producer, one of them is a director. I'm the youngest of three boys, and I saw them all, I saw my brothers gravitating to what my dad was doing, and I didn't want to do it. I wanted a rebel. I was 15 years old. I said, No way am I going into television. I had the ambition to be an airline pilot. And my parents had bought me a couple of flying lessons for my birthday. And I'd taken a couple of lessons, and I was I was like, yes, this is it for me. I'm gonna fly planes, it's it's so much fun. And then um in the UK, when you're 15, part of the school curriculum is that you go on a two-week work placement. You have to figure out this placement yourself. It's called work experience. And uh all my friends at school were arranging for to work in a bank or an insurance broker or a shop or whatever. And I had left it late. I was being a bit lazy. And uh, in the end, I was like, oh God, I've got nowhere to go. Dad, can I come to work with you? So I reluctantly went to work with my father, who was directing a show called Blind Date, which over here is the dating game. Um, and I was on set and I wasn't really enjoying it, right? I was just kind of there going through the motions. But in the studio next door, David Letterman was in London for a week doing the late show. Um, and I snuck in there and I hung out with David, his crew, and met an incredible cast of guests. David DuCoffney, Elton John, Piers Brosnan was coming in, and I got swept off my feet by uh uh um the star power and and I experienced something truly different to what my dad had been doing. And so I realized at 15, oh, this is fun, and I want to do this. And if I fly planes, I'll never get to make television and have this sort of fun. But if I make television, I can still fly planes. So I told myself, pursue TV and fly planes for fun. And so I did exactly that. It was a decision I took at 15. So I went straight into broadcasting college. Um, and after two years, I came out with a real technical understanding of how to make shows. I had learned how to do audio, uh, I had learned camera work, editing, lighting, I had directed a mini soap. I just sampled everything. And um at 20, I came out and took a PA position at ITV Productions, where I was head of stationary. And um, I would get all the pens and pencils for the different shows. And it was only about six months into that gig, they realized that I was trained and I could operate a camera, and then I was thrust into uh DV operating, camera operating for reality shows, and that changed my trajectory. Um uh actually just really put rockets on it very quickly. And it was because I went to college and I had this basic understanding of every role, which most people that start in the UK in these junior positions don't study broadcasting. It's because I had this, I made this decision at 15 to chase it that I started as a 20-year-old, 21-year-old with a real advantage. So the conversations I had at home were very straightforward because I was going into the family business. Um, and despite my reluctancy initially, uh, you know, it's been something now I've done for 20 years and and and have just never stopped loving. And I did learn to fly a plane when I was 27. I kept my I kept that promise.

SPEAKER_03 15:09

Fantastic. I love because this goes to the heart of the show. I love the fact that your failure to be organized enough to do your work experience properly is is the sort of initial failure that set you up for what's obviously turned out to be an incredibly successful career, which is which is good. So um I like we like talking about where things are going wrong early in people's careers. So having moved into this world, were there any times where either things were weren't working out and you were becoming disillusioned, or something specific went terribly wrong and you questioned whether maybe this was still the right career for you?

SPEAKER_02 15:51

Yeah, I I was lucky that when I first started, I was on a couple of really big shows in the UK. And so, in a very junior capacity, I experienced what a what a massive success can feel like. And I remember standing on the on the platform at a train station going to work, and everybody on the opposite side that are going the other way, waiting for their train, would have their newspapers out, and on the front page, it would have the show that had aired last night. And being a part of something in the Zeitgeist was just so rewarding. So as I worked my way up the ladder, that's what I what I really wanted to have. And and I wanted a showrunner show like that. And one of the earlier shows that I I first show ran was a music competition show uh for Simon Cowell. Um uh he was executive producing, and it was called Grease is the Word. And the goal of that show was to find the Danny and Sandy for the West End, you know, for Broadway in the UK. And and and I remember thinking, this is it, like this is the big show that you've been pursuing. It's similar to the shows where you've seen success and music, and and it just it just wasn't. It just didn't do the numbers. It was fine, it was not um an embarrassment, it was not a failure, it just didn't resonate with audiences as much as everyone at ITV and in and in the group had anticipated. So I really I experienced uh the I've experienced the highs and lows across my 20 years, and the highs are very high and the lows are very low. And I came out of that as a showrunner, as the first big music entertainment show I had showrun, wondering, oh, like, am I gonna book another show? Right? What does that lead to? Um, and you know, you get in you get in your own head about it, and um, I don't think I ever questioned leaving, um, but I did worry, like, well, does this is this a ding on my career? Like, am I gonna get another showrunner, John? Of course, I did. It was um, I I I got one very quickly, and it was the British version of Family Feud, Celebrity Family Fortunes, it's called there. And that was the show that then brought me out here because Family Feud was brought back here on NBC with the celebrity edition. And so, yeah, yes, I I I sampled uh a bit of failure there. Uh, and now in this role and with the hindsight, it wasn't true failure, it just wasn't a raging success. But the reason I'm in this is for those big successes. I uh the very first show I was put on as a DV operator was called Pop Stars. And in the UK, that was massive, and it became Pop Idol, and Pop Idol became American Idol. That's where it all came from. So I got to be a part of something so huge, and that's that's that the taste of that has never left, and it's something I've always um been yearning for ever since. And I've had moments of it uh throughout the career, but it's the truth is it's few and far between.

SPEAKER_03 18:46

So what I want to explore, it's not strictly rejection failure and adversity, or it might it might drip into adversity depending on any anecdotes you might tell. Uh, we've talked about it once before on the podcast, in more on scripted about the difference between writing for British shows and writing for American shows. But on your side of things, and I I know Nigel Lithgow very well, I know Simon Fuller a bit. So I yeah, I've talked to them about the differences between Britain and America in terms of because obviously, as you say, some of these shows that pop stars and so on, they came over here and did extraordinary things with British concepts. Because obviously, as we've talked about before British people are just excellent at everything, and British concepts are one off. But um in the in the unscripted world, how did you find the differences between you know the British market and the British shows and the American market and the American shows? And just some observations on that cultural difference, and also if anything went wrong because of cultural misunderstandings you made.

SPEAKER_02 19:55

Um I for me, the key I've been asked this question before, and I always think the key difference between the UK and the US is pacing. Um many, many shows have worked both sides sides of the pond, but when you look at them, uh there is a key difference, and it's just the rhythm and the pace and the speed in which the show moves along. Out here uh on network, when you start a let's say a game show like Family Feud or um or perhaps Hollywood Game Night, let's say, um, you've got to get to that first game quickly. You cannot wait too long just talking and chatting and meeting guests. And in the UK, we spend ages just chatting, hi, like not really much happening, right? And then you start playing the game. Uh, the content is all the same, it's just it's just edited much faster here. And that's something that took an a real uh piece of it was an adjustment period for me coming out and just the pace in which we moved. But what I've noticed just very recently, I was back in the UK um with my colleagues from Universal Studios group. We were visiting um uh our offices in London, and I had the British television on, there was a game show on. I actually stopped in my tracks and couldn't believe how what I was watching, which was nothing, nothing was happening. People were just sitting there talking nonsense, the show hadn't really begun. And I'd forgotten, I'd forgotten how, and I talk about that there is a difference in pacing, but I'd forgotten how severe it is. Like it's it's really noticeable how we just take our time in the UK, and I think that isn't just the UK, it's Europe too. We have a uh our most recent success in the studio is a show called That's My Jam, which is a Jimmy Fallon musical game show on NBC. And it's sold uh to multiple countries around the world now. We're announcing more uh in the next week or so, but it just aired in France and it did really well in France, which we're very happy about, but nothing happened. For five minutes, there's just people just talking and laughing and getting admittedly, it's in French, which might make it feel a bit longer because I can't speak a word of French. But there's just five minutes, and that just would not happen um uh uh here.

SPEAKER_00 22:17

Well, speaking of sort of things taking their time on stage, I'm actually kind of interested in process here, and so to kind of bring it back to rejection, failure, and adversity, but staying in the same category, some of the stuff that you do is recorded and you can fix things if it went wrong in one of the game shows or whatever, but not everything. Uh uh American Idol pop stars, these are things that you're in many cases, you're performing in front of a live audience and you're doing live television. Can is there has there ever been a situation that you've been, you know, executive level, producer level, whatever, where things were going wrong and you had to like, you know, knowing that the audience was was taking things in or the game or the show was suddenly, you know, pivoting left when everyone knew that that wasn't the way it was supposed to go, you know, what was what's the worst case scenario or the worst thing you've ever dealt with as someone dealing with live television?

SPEAKER_02 23:10

Yeah, so live television is a thrill. It's definitely upside of the business I really enjoy. Um and something that springs to mind just because it was such a scary moment, and I was quite central to it, was right before going live on American Idol, um, I was standing on the side of the stage, um, downstage, and uh a huge piece of the set fell off. Uh I think it was the giant spinning logo. It was a uh and it fell and it just missed me and it would have taken me out. I would have been in the ER. Um, and and so there was a huge cleanup operation. Obviously, a lot of uh a lot of people very worried uh in that moment. Thankfully, nobody was injured. Um, and the show was on air moments later, and and no one's the wiser, really, other than a wide shot missing a bit of a logo. Um uh so that was a hairy moment. Um, getting the judges on on set on time was also a stress on that show. If you look back over the years, there are times where the show began and the judges aren't in their seats, and uh that was always a hairy moment for everyone involved. Um, but I've never had a show fall off air. I certainly do much more recorded television than live television. Uh that some people are the other way, right, and spend their whole careers in live and may have better tales for you. Um, but thankfully, no, we've always made it to air, and um, it's just a whole other stress live television. The very first time I was involved in it, I used to work uh uh for the Disney Channel in the UK, and we were doing um uh a live show, and I remember afterwards I went to the bathroom and I vomited. I was physically sick from the stress from it. Um, but strangely, uh it pulls you back in. There's something about the orchestra of live TV, even when it makes you puke. I enjoyed it. And um whenever we get to do it, uh it's always a privilege because it's it's now not as often, right? It's much more efficient to do taped shows. So I love it. Um, and and I think uh it's good for our audiences too. It brings people to the to the TV en masse, you know, it feels like an event. So it is a key part of our business. But uh that's that's those are the moments that I think that stand out for me. Nothing too bad.

SPEAKER_00 25:34

Thank you for that. I I realized as you were talking and telling an anecdote earlier that you're in the perfect position to help sort of answer this raging debate that's going on in Twitter. It's been going on for a long time, uh, it's about nepotism. And people are always saying, well, you know, because you said your father was in the business, and he and and and they're saying, you know, there's all these writers that come in because their uncle is the writer or their dad is the writer or their dad knows the studio exec. So as a studio tech whose father was also in the business, my response is there is nepotism, but it's not the way you necessarily think it is. There's people who are raised in the trade, and these are trades, these are directors' sons, writers' sons who were literally weaned with the sound of the trade in their head, giving them a five, eight, 10-year advantage to other people. So, my question to you is what do you think about nepotism? And have you ever been called by like a Spielberg and said, you need to hire my son? And would that ever lead to like a huge amount of success for that person who is just trying to cash in on their sort of parents' last name?

SPEAKER_02 26:39

Um, oh, that's another, it's another good one though. And I'm going to give you two, right? I'm sorry, but that is another good question. And the reason you hit on something that for me has been a uh a crutch, right? I I up until only a few years ago, I may not have openly shared the story I just did about uh um my father and my family. Lots of people know the story, but not on something like this. And the reason was I was always fearful of being judged, right? I was worried that people thought, oh, nepotism. But you you summarized it beautifully. I I my advantage was not anything other than growing up around it at the dinner table. I would sit and have dinner with my family, and my father would talk about this show, that show, or this shop. The TV was always on when we were eating, which I know is bad, but it helped me. And um, and so I I learned so much went in subconsciously, but no one helped me, no one gave me a leg up in the industry or gave me a job, or uh if anything, it opened a door. My very first job as that stationary guy, if I'm honest, was probably because my my father uh had been a director and lots of people knew him. Never ever did anything after that happen because of uh because of my family being in the business. And I think you get exposed very quickly if you're not good, right? I wouldn't, I don't think I'd be in this in this position now had I not had the advantage of listening to my family talk about the industry while I was growing up. So uh nepotism has negative connotations, obviously, because it feels like you're just getting you're getting given something because of your family connections. I wasn't given a thing, I was just subconsciously taught uh a trade, as you as you say. And I haven't experienced um personally a call from any A-listers saying please hire my son, my daughter, my nephew. That is not something I've experienced. But um, there are so many junior positions available on our shows, and I I I'm I'm always open to anyone that wants to put someone in a junior position if you're willing to work your way up, like great. And I and I was, by the way, coming out of college, I had lots of my peers, they felt like we're directors now, we're producers now. And I think many of them didn't get ahead in the industry. I came out and realized I got to start on the bottom. I was making teas, I was plugging phones in offices and ordering pens and pencils, but I only did it for six months because of my training and because of my upbringing.

SPEAKER_03 29:08

So I think um nothing says more about how charming and polite British people are than today's guest twice telling Noah he's asked a good question. Um, it's it's just British people killing time, um, as Toby says we often do before we get down to the good stuff. Um, so Toby, you are today president of Universal Television Alternative Studio. What are the things that you're now worrying about in your day job? You know, you're not worrying about sets falling down, and you're not worrying about have they run out of pencils on the show. You've been through all of that stage of your career. So, what are you worrying about? And what are the big challenges you're facing in your current role?

SPEAKER_02 29:57

So, predominantly now my role is problem solving. Um, fire, I I joke, it's like firefighting. It's just constantly just putting out fires. Um and the the the best the best way to describe it is we're constantly hiring very talented people. We're putting teams together, showrunners are putting teams together. My job is to clear the runway so that they can do their job. And sometimes they'll come to me with a talent problem, a scheduling problem, a budgetary problem, or my team, obviously. And and then I'll roll up the sleeves and we'll pile in. Um, so it's it's mostly clearing the runway so others can do what they're hired to do. Um and and most of the time I find that's that's what my day is about. Um and it it may be HR problems, I mean it could just be, you know, it's it's anything. And just when you think, oh, I've got a quiet, oh, today's gonna be a quiet day, the phone rings and all hell breaks loose. And um uh and and that can be draining, you know. That's that that sometimes that that can you can just feel like it's endless. Uh uh, but I also coming from the producer side, coming, I consider myself a creative. Um, I love I love getting involved in the creativity of a show, especially a new show, and um trying to help it be the best version of it, of what it can be. Uh, and so certainly never want to micromanage, never want to get in the way, but occasionally shows hit these little creative roadblocks or whatever it may be. And I do love being there uh and and helping a show birth, helping a show uh get going. So I uh certainly do less of that these days because that we have others, I have others on the team and we hire showrunners that do that predominantly. But that is a part of my job, and that's important to me because of my path to where I am today.

SPEAKER_03 31:56

So actually, on the point about you being a creative, so we we've we've talked before to upstairs people about giving notes on the scripted side and how they give notes given the notes they will have received before. But obviously, it it's maybe not notes in the same way you would on a script, but in terms of being a creative and giving the sort of the unscripted equivalent of notes, as it were, again, because you were on the other side of it, and I imagine at some point some exec said, Yeah, this is a great idea, but why don't we do the complete opposite? Um when you are making creative suggestions, which maybe do change maybe some of the kernel of somebody else's idea. How again, how are you how are you at giving notes and being understanding of the creative person opposite you at the table?

SPEAKER_02 32:52

I I love a healthy debate about the the the good of a show, right? And and um I I think it's always an evolving conversation. I never I try to I try to never give a feta complet on anything. It's it's my two cents, my recommendation, and then I'll try and justify it. Perhaps we've learned something, I've learned something in the past the hard way, and I'm applying that logic here. Um and I'll and I'll also try and remind myself to back down when it a it's not important, or b because I might be wrong. Like how how um how strongly do I feel about this uh this topic? And I'll always try and keep in mind like does it move the needle? Right? So if I'm I feel in my bones that something else, something should change, does it truly matter, or is it just gonna cause a lot of fuss, disgruntle the team? And so just try and keep myself in check. And I think it really helps, as you said, Dan, that I've been that that guy. I was that person receiving the notes. And sometimes those notes were shit. And you know, and you disagreed. You're like, God, that's a terrible suggestion, but I I am working for you and I kind of have to do it. So I never want to put anyone in in that position. And so I think healthy debate, uh, and and I always come at it that it's my two cents. It's it's never this needs to happen.

SPEAKER_00 34:18

Fascinating. On the same on the same lines, there was this another debate going on that I'm kind of curious about that your take on it. Uh, about that as uh the studios got bought out by bigger corporations and they're big corporate-owned entities, and they have been for a long time, that the that the that the uh the mindset of the executives of proven projects has become very sort of dollar and sense. Now, granted, this that we always this is a business, this is show business. We're trying to make money, but what I'm what I'm asking you about here is your gut. Like, how much is your gut at play? And not just it will this show make money or will this show be successful, but when you're looking at a slate of ideas that are you have yet to take on, and your execs have given all their opinions, they've given you their notes, they've given you their thoughts, and now it's crunch time. You have to decide. Sort of what is that process and what are you like when you the end of the day, the buck stops with you? So, what are you kind of looking at to try to make your decision? And are you relying on gut? Are you relying on data, a combination of everything?

SPEAKER_02 35:21

Yeah, uh definitely your gut. And my gut has served me pretty well so far, but more than anything, it's your team. Um, I have we have a fantastic group at the alternative studio who predominantly all come from production themselves. They've all learned how to make shows before being on this side of the fence. And I listen to them. Um without them, um without a strong team in place, you don't stand a chance. Now we are not the show buyers, right? We are selling, we are helping create or collaborating with other great production companies and going in together. So it's a team sport, some uh one of my old bosses used to say to me, and it very much is that. So I I I would like to think I don't sit there and say yes or no. It really I don't feel I don't feel like it I do, and I hope my team would agree. Of course, there are times where people need a decision, but usually there's a healthy debate about okay, do we want to proceed with this project? Um, the head of development at the studio, Monica Rodman, is across everything we're developing, and she and I are always debating about projects that we should be spending time on or moving forward with, and that's something we do together with our team.

SPEAKER_03 36:43

Very good. So look, um, it always pains me to when I we're having such a great interview, um, when we get timed out, but reality of podcasts are they have to end at some point. So we have to move on to the final question, which we ask every guest, which is if you could give a single piece of advice to somebody wanting to enter the industry, in this case, I think it's you can actually choose between whether it's the sort of upstairs, um, or if it's at the you know, producer, showrunner level or non-scripted, but what single piece of advice would you give to someone looking to enter the industry?

SPEAKER_02 37:23

I always like to say it's about uh making great relationships. Um and in non-scripted, uh when I started um I would be on a show for three months, that show would end, everybody disperses, and new show, you move on to new shows. And that you get that next gig, especially early on in your career, by making a good impression, by making good relationships, because there's often lots of junior people available for lots of jobs, and it's you know, it's it's competitive. So it's about making good relationships, so that as everyone moves on in different directions, you continue to get those phone calls and um and work comes your way. And I think that applies to everything, certainly even as an executive. It's being courteous, it's it's treating people with kindness. I've always fundamentally been a people putting people first kind of uh kind of person. Um I I like to to see people happy on sets and in the office, and that's served me well um uh uh over my 20 years. So I think it's about forming uh good relationships. By the way, they need to be real relationships. I'm not suggesting you game you game it. I just think it's about being an authentic version of yourself uh and ensuring you played nicely uh in what can be a very complex uh and difficult and demanding um industry.

SPEAKER_03 38:50

Very good. Toby Gorman, terrible at planning work experience, but very good at being polite to podcast hosts. Thank you very much for being part of our podcast.

SPEAKER_02 39:01

Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_03 39:04

Thank you. Do you before we sort of thank our wives and stuff, do you think anyone actually listens this far, or do they stop when the music comes back in?

SPEAKER_00 39:28

I think they normally stop after you mention your second and third podcast, I guess. I haven't mentioned them yet, though, have I? Uh if you do want to reach out with us to us for criticisms, complaints, or praise, uh, you can either reach out to us through the website or I am at nebslin on Twitter. And Dan, you have an account?

SPEAKER_03 39:47

Not that anyone really cares about. So if you've got complaints about the show, go to NEbslin and feel free to air those. If you have praise or you want to pay us in some way for something, come to at Dan Rutstein. And have a great day.