Take 89 - Writer and showrunner Simran Baidwan, Manifest, Clean Slate

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for sure, dozens of unproduced scripts literature floor.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

There is sometimes even all fine.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

It's never one point five. There will be other five.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Let somebody with a more charming accent do this bit. Screaming into the Hollywood Abit is brought to you by Scriptation, the Emmy Award-winning app for anyone that reads scripts. Makes notes, organise them into layers, and save hours of time by automatically transferring those notes into new script revisions. Stiffer listeners can get a free month of Scriptation by going to Scriptation.com backslash Stiffer. Now that's how you do it, Noah. Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. I am as ever your non-entertainment co-host, Dan Rotstein.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

And I am your industry co-host, Noah Epslin. On today's Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, I'm excited to introduce TV writer, producer, and showrunner Simren Baywan. Simrin has worked on such shows as Royal Pain, Chicago Med, Conviction, Bull, The Good Doctor, Ordinary Joe, and Manifest. She's currently the EP and co-showrunner of Clean Slate, premiering on Amazon's 3v, hopefully next fall. Welcome, Simrin.

SPEAKER_03 2:11

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

So very excited to have you on. I feel like you seem like a nice person, so I feel like I'm going to be more gentle with the opening question. I mean, I could be wrong. We'll find out as we go through. So you obviously have worked in lots of different rooms at lots of different times. Can you start with the most you don't have to name the room necessarily, but the most positive sort of room environment that you've been in and why it was a positive room environment and a positive experience? And then we'll we'll work downwards from there.

SPEAKER_03 2:56

Certainly. They are the last two shows that I worked on before working on Clean Slate, which I am right now, which were Manifest and Ordinary Joe. And, you know, I really believe that it starts from the top down. And with Manifest, Jeff Rake, who is the creator, executive producer of that, really is just when you look up Mensch in the dictionary, there's a photograph of Jeff. He is truly as wonderful as they come. And he really assembled an incredible group of writers. And it's not that we didn't have, you know, disagreements or discourse or debate, but you know, it was just a really, really positive environment. And he really empowered everyone from, you know, the top down. There was no like hierarchical kind of presence. It was just like, if you have a great idea, pitch it. We want to hear it. If you're an assistant or, you know, the script coordinator, tell us what you have to say. And the same thing could be said for Ordinary Joe, which was run by Russell Friend and Garrett Lerner, who um back in the day I used to be their assistant on house. And then this is the first time I got to work with them as a writer, which was a real treat. And they're just incredible human beings. I knew them to be such when I was their assistant, and we've kept in touch for all these years. They have been really, really great friends, advisors, mentors. And um, yeah, Ordinary Joe was an exceptional room. I still have, you know, our group chats, even though manifest the series has ended and Ordinary Joe got canceled. We still have our writers from group chats and we send happy birthday wishes and love and congratulatory notes about somebody's show getting picked up or somebody having a baby, or you know, they we've really we really bonded in a significant way. And I think by again from the top down, it was all about respect and love and creating an environment of trust that we just forged really incredible, you know, uh relationships.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Thank you. Uh and look, I think it is important in a on a podcast where we always talk about all the bad things. Um there are obviously there are plenty of shows that are run very well with excellent showrunners treating their staff with dignity and respect and creating inclusive environments. And I feel like we don't talk about them enough. But that is enough talking about that. So can you give us the opposite? Um, so uh you may not want to name the room at this point, but where have you well has there been a room that you've worked in where it was not that? Um, and talk us through what that looked like and how that made you feel and what you learned from it.

SPEAKER_03 5:33

You know, I've I've experienced different things in different rooms. I never felt um that I worked in a room where I was personally attacked or you know, uh, or that there was some things that I felt like I couldn't say. But there are definitely, you know, environments where you're like, oh, you've got to, you know, it's sometimes I might always give this advice. Sorry, I'm just backtracking to any person who wants to become a writer. It was like, your greatest asset is listening. Just listen, you know, before you want to talk, before anything, you know, just really reading the room, reading people. And there's been a lot of environments where, you know, you have people who are like, you can't go anywhere, you can't do anything, you have to check in with me before you go wherever, or they would leave to go have dinner with their families, but everybody else had to still stay in the writer's room, or you know, just really insane kind of behavior, it felt like to me. Um and so that does create an environment where then people are fearful and they are afraid to maybe speak up or do things and you know say things. And I think because of that, then the creativity and you know suffers and the show suffers because then you don't have that element of trust. You don't have that element of respect where people are being treated like children or you know, less than. And so yeah, I've I've definitely been in those rooms and seen experience that and you know, not the best.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

I'm gonna follow up with the fact that you said you've been in those rooms and you experienced it and not the best, but I want to start a little gently, like Dan, and then we'll go, we'll go, we'll put the quote on and go a little harder. But the uh the you mentioned that your most recent rooms were your best rooms, and I'm finding that I I and this is maybe just a theory based on my own experience that rooms are have been changing for the better because there's no real excuse to be bad anymore. Like, like the ever we kind of hit you know, the writer's room, there you the cone of silence, you couldn't talk about it really, and there was no social media, so people weren't communicating as much about the bad rooms. Do you think things are changing in rooms for the better, or is it just luck of the draw that you've got these two good rooms and there's still tons of toxic rooms out there and we have a ways to go?

SPEAKER_03 7:36

I still, I mean, I think they're getting better. I think they're getting better very incrementally. I think some people hopefully are changing because they're being called to task on it. Uh, the people who I talked about, like Jeff Ray before I started working with the Bond Manifest, his track record has always been exceptional. And same with being with Russell Friend and Garrett Lerner. And that's something that I started learning, you know, I think later on in my career. Before it used to be like, you got a job, be grateful, eternally grateful. You have been employed, say please, thank you, and just take it. And as I've, you know, gone on in my career and I feel like I have the ability to make choices, I do recon on the showrunners. You know, let me talk to other people who have worked for you or who work for you, the same way I would do with writers, you know, that I'm hiring. And because I want to know what kind of things you know, it's everybody has can have a great interview and put a smile on their face, but you know, the people who have been in the trenches with you 10, 12 hours a day when shit's hitting the fan and when, you know, a script gets, you know, tossed back from studio or network or have trouble in any capacity, that's where you're really seeing people's true colors. And I was fortunate that I had been in those trenches with Russ and Garrett and I knew them to be, you know, exceptional people. And then same thing, I did my research on Jeff, and you know, he was even better than I had experienced and expected.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

Do you never now back to the harder question, which I appreciate that answer because I was kind of in line with what I was thinking too. But the um the harder question about sort of this this podcast lives or die, and in the specificity of people sharing anecdotes about things. We don't obviously, you don't have to name names, we don't expect that. But were you ever a time where you were treated like a child, where you had a really awful day because someone spoke down to you? Or, and in that case, you know, if if so, uh how did you process it? How did you deal with it? And how did you move on?

SPEAKER_03 9:15

You know, yes, I have had someone speak to me as if I was a child that my loud, my mouth, my mouth, my voice was too loud. I am I'm a loud speaker, but you know, they just called me out, like, oh, you're really loud, you need to settle down. And I was like, I don't find myself that to be, or like, you know, just some kinds of things that are sometimes about uh appearance. So it has nothing to do with what the job or task at hand is. Or, you know, I have once had someone say, Oh, you look like you're losing weight. That's great, keep it up, you know, and you're like a show owner. And I was like, oh, great, that's that's delightful. That's you know, so there's things like that that I have experienced personally. Um, I also think that this was not my first career. I didn't start out, you know, as a writer, which wasn't the first job I had coming out of college. I used to be a former criminal prosecutor, and uh, you know, I was like, oh, I've I've dealt with a lot. I've dealt with a lot of um fat shit attorneys and their clients and judges and bailiffs and cops. And I was like, ah, so for me, Hollywood is not as scary as what the real world contends with.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

So I I'm as somebody who's on their fourth career, um, I always find it fascinating when we get into this stuff. We've had trying to think now, we've had at least two or three lawyers who've become show runners. Um, we've had people from restaurant owners, like I find it really interesting. Um so, and the point you made obviously about the fact that you would have dealt with lots of crazy people in that previous career. I think that perspective that gives you, when you're in a room and people are not behaving well, but everyone's taking it all very seriously because they only know Hollywood, which is a very weirdly put-together place where um some of the normal rules of business engagement don't really take place. Did you find that experience helpful because you can fall back and think, well, either you know I've seen this before in a different version, or just just know that there's more to life than than the sort of Hollywood and these rooms and your broader perspective, so it was easier for you to deal with?

SPEAKER_03 11:34

I think it's a combination of them, you know. I really think it comes with yes, previous, you know, past work experience. I think it comes with age, I think it comes with experience within our particular industry. And just because you've seen it and you know how to deal with it doesn't mean that it's acceptable, you know, and so that's something that I, as again, I feel like I kept my mouth shut a lot in when I was working in environments or rooms when I was coming up, when I was a you know, staff writer or story editor, even like a co-producer or something. But as I, you know, became further senior in this industry, I felt like I would, I would I was less um I was less afraid to speak up and defend either, you know, people who I thought were being victimized, or I would, you know, if there was someone who was bringing some kind of negativity or toxicity into a room by having a conversation with them. I think again, there's a way to say it and to do it that isn't feel hopefully not, you know, attacking or just super hypercritical, but that it does need to be called out. And, you know, it doesn't, I'm not into public shaming, you know. I would I really prefer to have private conversations with people, especially if I think that they're acting in an inappropriate manner. But I also will, you know, it doesn't mean that I will let it continue within a room, especially one that I'm running.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

So now you're a co-show runner, you are the boss. How do you set the tone for rooms in terms of both, I guess at the beginning, you know, what does the sort of welcome to this room, this is how we're gonna treat you, sort of assuming you do a version of that, how does that chat go? And then also as time goes on, because we were talking about this on last week's episode with Jeffrey Lieber about how they're now starting to do sort of performance reviews halfway through a season, which apparently is new, even though it feels like it shouldn't be. Um, so yeah, talk us through that sort of welcome to my room bit, and then also how you maintain whatever standards you set through the process.

SPEAKER_03 13:35

Yeah, I did, I did do a very, I actually went through and put together a mini kind of, I don't know, like you would do a pitch document, like you would do any kind of thing. I wrote something up, you know, not that I read from it verbatim, but just bullet points about things that I wanted to make sure that we, you know, really set the tone from beginning about, you know, um inclusivity and respect. And, you know, again, making sure that yes, things are a tone of silence, but that doesn't mean that we are going to trash each other. Uh, really making sure that if there are things that people disagree with, that there is a thoughtful way to present critique, that there is also um a thoughtful way to, you know, when you're shooting down an idea or an idea doesn't bumps you, you know, in that very much of a um improv kind of way. It's the yes and, or okay, I'm not sure why this isn't, you know, tracking for me, but what about this? Or what about why or you know, X? And I think just really having that kind of attitude of trying to be a problem solver, not just noting what the problems may be, but what are the pitches to potentially um, you know, help. And just, you know, again, it's it's about listening. Listening to me is the key. And even as a showrunner, I mean, I work on a show right now that I run, Clean Slate, which is about an African-American family, an older African-American gentleman who is from the South, who is widowed, and um their child, you know, ran away when they were 17 years old. And, you know, when the message comes back that's saying, Hey, dad, I want to come home, he's really grateful to be reunited with his son. But when the doorbell rings, the person standing in front of him is a proud trans woman. And so there's a lot of aspects of this, you know, which seems like there is heavy stuff, but we're putting it in a half hour single camera project. And we have George Wilde playing the dad and LeBron Cox playing the daughter. And it's, you know, I am not a black person, nor am I a black male, nor am I a trans woman. You know, there are many things of this that I do not have personal experience with, but because I am a showrunner, I make sure that my room is inclusive of, you know, people, BIPOC, LGBTQ, trans people, both as writers in our support staff everywhere. And my job is to listen. My job is to really listen and to help understand the so that I can tell, help tell, I should say, the most authentic story possible.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

So I'm gonna ask quite a specific question, I guess, in terms of how it works. So we've just been through a version of this. So I work for a professional soccer team, which of course is not Hollywood, um, and we're planning our promotional schedule for the year, and we're gonna be doing uh for Women's Empowerment Month in March, we're doing a we're gonna do a special game, but we're having a whole debate about what to call it. And uh, you know, we've got obviously we've got plenty of females in our team now, which we didn't a few years ago. But we have this sort of, you know, the men are like, let's call it um you know girl power night, and then we have this whole discussion, some of the girls say why they don't like it, and some of the women say this and that, and so we get sort of very specific. And I was I wasn't sure sort of are you allowed to turn around to the women and say, Well, you tell us what you think because this matters to you, you know, you'll be able to judge this better. So when you're you know, if there's them that you're writing, do you have to how do you how do you get that balance in the inclusivity, you know, of saying, of turning to one of your colleagues and saying, I think you're best placed to work out what phrase we should use or what word we should use here. How do you how do you sort of get that bit right internally to the right people in the room, but how do you actually work out who to call on when? So you're making sure that you are treading that fine line. Because I imagine there are plenty of times in that room where the wrong phrase, you know, if the wrong person comes up the wrong phrase, it will not work at all.

SPEAKER_03 17:22

Yeah, and you know, it's about leading with grace, first and foremost. And, you know, I think we all accept that sometimes we say the wrong things, maybe not intentionally, but but because they might not know the right terminology or phraseology, myself included. And so we really empower people to speak up. I don't really want to ever call somebody out and say, hey, Dan, what do you think? You know, because they may not want to speak in that moment. That I think also can be very um off-putting. So we always empower them to say, hey, listen, if there are things that you object to or things that you think are incorrect, or you things that, you know, rub you the wrong way, feel free to speak out in the room. Feel free to speak out to us privately, send us an email, send me a text, you know, we can go for a walk or a coffee. But, you know, our room really has, but again, because we have curated it and such and created the environment where like everybody, feel free to say what you, you know, believe or don't believe. And I'm also like, if I'm pitching an idea, I'm also gonna say, you know, I is this a stereotype or is this a trope? And I'll say it out loud, you know, is this something, this is what I've read or this is what I've seen, or is that is that truthful? Is it not? Does it feel like we're leaning into something that um is, you know, is not authentic? And, you know, we've been very fortunate that, you know, Laverne Cox is a co-creator of the show. She reads everything, she gives us feedback on everything, but then also we have an internal group of people. In addition to just when we're pitching stories, before any document goes out to producers, studio, or network, we sit around the table with our assistants, with everybody, and say, let's do a sensitivity read. I want everybody to read the document, and then we will sit around the table and we will go beat by beat, page by page, and everybody let us know if there, you know, if there's something that is bumping them in any capacity. You know, and so I think that that's been really something that we have been very conscientious of. And we know that, you know, no trans BIPOC story is a monolith, but we also want to make sure that we are, you know, hopefully telling something that is impactful without being insulting or you know, traumatizing.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

Yeah. Amazing answer. No, it's your turn.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Is it ever uh tricky? I mean, staying on the subject for a second, I have a different question afterwards, but just staying on the subject, is it ever tricky as the leader, co co-leader of this show where you're dealing with, you know, very sensitive subjects, sort of played, I guess, you know, in a 30-minute playing field, which can be somewhat comedic, where you have to keep the whole story in your head. What the the you have to do things that service the long arc of your story, and someone's authentic lived story doesn't fit. And you need to kill babies, other people's babies that are really important to them. That's part of their experience. How do you deal with that as a leader and and try to make them feel good about the situation where maybe something's not making it in?

SPEAKER_03 20:08

Yeah, and that has happened. You know, it's happened to me personally as a writer on other shows, and it's also happened on this show that we're working on because we are telling the story of this fictionalized person. And that's something that we, you know, even Laverne talks about also like this is the fictionalized person, even though I'm infusing, you know, some of my personal anecdotes. So it's uh yes, you have to do it, it's very sensitive thing. And I think that, you know, you handle it hopefully with a little bit of grace and you handle it as, you know, with kindness and say, I understand where you're coming from. But again, reiterating that, you know, not every, you know, experience, especially for specifically for the show, Black Trans experience, is a monolith. And so as I understand what you're saying for this, and those are great ideas, they may be for episodes or seasons down the road. Right now, this is what the arc of the story that we're trying to tell for this very specific family and this specific person. And, you know, I think at the end of the day, everybody is respectful that, you know, the showrunners are the final arbiters of what goes out. Um, but again, I I really hope and I really do think that with the the group of people that we've curated, that we are not sending out something that is in any way or capacity intentionally trying to traumatize. Yes, we're telling a half hour, you know, comedy, but we're also doing it under the banner of Norman Lear, who is, you know, one of our producers. And so coming to the understanding of what he did with All in the Family and Jefferson's and good times, where you are going to step in it. You know, you want people to step in it and then be called out and, you know, move forward. So it's a delicate balance, it really is. But you know, so far we've had an exceptional group of writers and voices of people who range from, you know, so many different um writing backgrounds and personal life experience backgrounds that it's just been a real joy.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

I think we can push a lot deeper. Deeper in the 30-minute space than a lot of people fully expect or understand how this comedic genre can really go deep into human drama in a way sometimes that the 60-minute drama space has more difficulty. That's just a comment on my question. I'm gonna pivot a little bit because you've been working at the highest levels for a while now on a lot of different shows at the top, you know, the top of our ranks. Uh what has been your most painful rejection, either on a pitch or on a show you didn't get, or just something that really stung?

SPEAKER_03 22:31

Um it's interesting you you say that. I mean, like, yeah, there've been there have been pitches that I've had that have been pulled out, or if something's written and then somebody calls it out, it's like, oh, that's trite. Oh, the word trite makes me like cringe. It makes it really is when someone says something I've written or something I've pitched is trite. You just feel like you gotta crawl back into a cave. Um, but it's happened and it's been done. And what I mean, I don't, I would hope it's not done maliciously. I think it's just, you know, a manner and so however people might think of things. But um, yeah, you just I think you you have to you have to pick up and move on. That's our job. Our job is really to, you know, come up with stories. And, you know, yes, I can pitch like 10 stories and maybe none of them are great, but there might be a kernel that helps to lead somebody else to do something else. And I think it's that ability to say, okay, exhale, you know, go for a walk, you know, go um, you know, yell or scream about it in in your uh the privacy of your car. But you know, that's our job is to carry on, is to really just think of new ideas. And I don't say that lightly because I do know that people put a lot of thought and effort and care and put their heart into stories and put their, you know, into pitches. But I also think of, you know, again, having worked in the legal field before, and then I came here, was like, guys, we get paid to play make-believe. Like somebody is paying us to play make-believe. That's our job, is to come up with stories. So I really, even now, I I drive onto the Sony lot every day, and there is a little bit of adrenaline. I still feel after all these years that I am Charlie, who won a golden ticket, and I am driving on to Willy Wonka's factory. I really feel that way, and I hope that it doesn't go away. And when it does, then maybe it's time for me to hang it up.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

Brilliant. So I was actually going to transition across to talking about the switch of professions and you've started it already for me. Um, and obviously, you you know, you're successful at the moment. Sorry, I don't mean at the moment as then you won't be. I think you have reached levels of success, which is great, but I'm much more interested in the when it wasn't all going so well. So let's go back to the the career transition. So why did you want to step away from the legal world? And then in at the beginning when you know you were lower ranked and paid less and had less responsibility and so on. Were there times where you questioned that decision? Were there times that you nearly gave up? And did sort of the dream of Hollywood not feel like the dream of Hollywood?

SPEAKER_03 25:11

Certainly. You know, so going back to your first question about like what made me leave, I uh, like I said, I was a criminal prosecutor. And before that, I really thought about like, should I go work at a big firm? Should I do but the idea of doing contracts and mergers and acquisitions and things like that, so with like the seventh circle of hell to me. So I went into the prosecutor's office. Criminal law sounded exciting and it was interesting. It was something that I really enjoyed when I was in law school, when I did internships. So I went to go do that. And it's it's not like TV, believe it or not. You know, there is a lot of bureaucracy and a lot of red tape, and it's hard. It's very difficult. It can be very draining. And I'd been doing it for about four years, and I just thought, is this what I'm gonna do for the rest of my life? You know, and I had studied in undergrad, I was a double major in polypsci with emphasis in pre-law and then communications with emphasis in film and TV. And so I would watch, you know, we would watch, or one class was just the required text was the screenplay for pulp fiction, you know. So I would watch movies and we would dissect them, we would talk about them. And so I really let learned film and film theory and like, you know, all that kind of stuff. But I wasn't, I didn't take a screenwriting class. I didn't take, you know, how to make a film class. I really thought that people said, like, uh, when you graduate, are you gonna go to film school? I thought film school was people for people like George Lucas and Steven Spielberg. I was like, and honestly, white men. I was like, I didn't even know women who did it, much less, you know, women of color who did it. And I was like, oh, well, I like law too. So I guess I'll go to law school. You know, this is part of the Indian immigrant uh child in me of like, well, I I guess I'll go to one of those, you know, traditional, safe, secure uh kind of professions. And I, law school was great. I I love being a student and I went to go be a lawyer, but I think deep down I just felt like this can't be it. This can't be this for the rest of my life, being, you know, working for the government, working as a criminal prosecutor. I wasn't sure. And so I really confided in a couple of friends, and including my husband at the time, um, who's still my husband, not at the time, but um, and just said, you know, I think I might want to go do something different. And I had a really good friend who is still a dear friend. He was a junior executive at CBS at the time. He had worked his way up from being a PA on friends and all the stuff we'd known him since college. He's like, you should come work in TV. You should come work here. And I was like, and do what? Well, do what exactly? I'm not, you know, equipped to do anything. He's like, just come, you'll figure it out, you'll figure it out. He slid my resume to someone who was looking for an assistant. Um, they were a showrunner of a show called Judging Amy back in the day. And I took a sick day and I flew down and I met them, and you know, a couple of weeks later they hired me. And so I took an 85% pay cut to become somebody's assistant and answer phones and fetch grilled cheese, and it was glorious. It was so exciting and so fun to be in this world, you know. Yes, did I have the privilege of having some savings and you know, and using some credit cards to make that adjustment? Certainly. But it was really eye-opening. It really felt where I was, I felt just really stimulated and fulfilled and excited by something after, you know, a really long time. And very quickly being in that office, I learned how the sausage was made. And I was like, well, clearly writing the stories is the best part. This is the most fun, you know, creating the narrative. And so I did what any self-taught person did is, and I started reading scripts and I started watching TV and pausing my TiVo back then. And, you know, oh, this happened in this. I didn't know that I was doing scene breakdown and act breaks and all that stuff, but that's what I was doing. And I was like, oh, that's how they wrote that script. And then I realized, oh, I wrote all the time. You know, I wrote short stories, I wrote basically trials, I performed for people. I had to get 12 people to agree that my narrative was the right narrative, and you know, in order to win a case. And so I realized I do have a skill set that I have been honing for a number of years that could be advantageous here in Hollywood.

SPEAKER_01 29:27

What was going on with your uh parents? Just a quick follow-up with this move. You talk about your in traditional, not meant as traditional, but your Indian background, you're you're no longer a lawyer and you're you're you're serving grilled cheese. By the way, I did the same thing. I went uh took a huge pay cut, probably 85% as well, and became an assistant and did the whole thing, and I was thrilled. My parents maybe not so much for a little while. But what's going on with with your family while uh you were you know making this adjustment and and including your husband, who is still your husband.

SPEAKER_03 29:58

Yes. Um, you know, my husband was super supportive. You know, we lived in San Francisco at the time and he said, Listen, we don't have kids, we don't have a dog, we don't have a mortgage, like go now. He's like, but I'm not gonna move down yet because we we found it, it was really hard for us to find this apartment in San Francisco. So I'm gonna give up this, you know, this premium um property until you tell me that you really love it. And within like a month of me being down there, he was like, You love it. He's like, I'm coming. And so he looked for a job and he came down very quickly thereafter. But for my parents, yeah, my parents are immigrants from India, you know, they've worked really hard to provide for myself and my siblings to be able to, you know, go to university and like, you know, pursue our dreams and do different things. And I think that at that point they thought, okay, this might be a temporary break. She has her savings. She's not asking us for money. Excellent. But that if shit did hit the fan, or, you know, when I came to my senses, she still has her bar card. She can go back and be a lawyer. That's not going to be a problem. So I think that there was a little bit, if they, if there was outward trepidation, I mean, sorry, if there was trepidation, they did not express it outwardly. I did not feel it that way. I was also, you know, financially independent. I didn't feel like I wasn't living under their roof. I wasn't under them, you know, needing them for money. So I felt like I can go make this decision on my own and figure it out. And I really did. I mean, I still have my bar card. I pay inactive duties, but I I do. I just but I still have it, you know, and it's been, geez, you know, I moved here almost 20 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

Were there times where you nearly gave up where you couldn't transition from one job to the other, or it actually wasn't really working out for you, and you thought maybe this was a a bad idea, or was it all as smooth sailing as you're gonna get in this industry?

SPEAKER_03 31:43

Yeah, I'm the poster child for imposter syndrome. You know, I really feel like I still feel it sometimes. They're gonna figure it out, they're gonna take away the keys, you know, they're gonna revoke my membership. Um, yeah, there, I mean, it's hard. We're we're this is a world of freelance. You're working job to job, gig to gig. And so, you know, after I did Royal Pains, I was there for five seasons. I was really fortunate. But, you know, as the seasons were coming, they were being, they got picked up for a final like two seasons, but they were going to shoot it all back to back. And, you know, there was all of these compromises, and part of that is budgetary constraint. And when it comes to budgetary constraint, you know, you have to tighten everything when it comes to every department, including the writers. And so, you know, myself and another writer were let go, and that the showrunners were lovely. They were like, We feel so bad, but you know, this is what it is. And just, and I was like, we get it, I get it. But when you lose that job, you're like, oh shit, am I ever gonna work again? Like, what's gonna happen? And I remember going on meetings and you are doing the song and dance, and you think things go well, and then somebody says, Oh, nah, they weren't interested, or they went with the people that they already do know. Um, and I remember that first season after that, when I went, you know, for staffing season, I had something like nine showrunner meetings, and all my friends were like, that's insane. Nobody has that many showrunner meetings. And all I could think about were the people that didn't give me the meetings. Not the meetings that I got, not the positive feedback that I got, but why didn't X want to read my script? Why did Y say, ah, this isn't for us? You know, and that's it's hard. It's that it's hard to take that kind of rejection. And yes, I did get a job after that. I went, you know, um, from there to work with Chicago Med. And, you know, there's but again, like Chicago Med was an interesting thing where I was there, I was working with this showrunner, and we just started the show, and then the showrunner got fired, you know, very a few gosh weeks, many a couple of months in, and then a new team was brought on. And then there was a lot of reshuffling because obviously they're trying to, you know, create their own environment. And um, I got let go from that. Like, you know, my back end contract wasn't picked up because there was these new people and they wanted to bring in their own people. And again, you're feeling like, oh shit, you know, am I ever gonna work again? And it's hard, it's really hard. And you um I curled up on a couch and you know, had a little pity party and you know, uh drank some tequila. And then I was like, well, you know, I have some time now. So there's this idea that I've been thinking about writing that is totally batshit and kind of like off the wall. And let me go write it. And that that's really what I did. I used that time to just write my own material, not and not for sale. I really wrote it as another calling card, as a different piece of material to get something else. And I wrote something that I'm still insanely proud of, and it is something that since then has gotten me every other job, you know, since that, since then. So there was the upside of that. I had time and I could have just wallowed in it and you know, and it did. I didn't staff, you know, obviously for till the next cycle. Back then, networks were very much in that, you know, fall staffing cycle. But I just from December to May, I just worked on that piece and I continued, you know, reaching out to people to say, hey, will you read this? Tell me what works, tell me doesn't what doesn't. That's another another thing. I mean, it's a lot, it's very hard to be self-motivated, you know, sometimes, but also then surrounding yourself with people who are willing to give you the time and really give you, you know, uh notes, you know, not just like, oh, this is great, and then you know, put a little smiley face on it and send it back to you. I have, I'm very fortunate that I have a couple of writer friends who we've been friends for again, you know, 15 plus years, and they give me the hard truth about what's working, what's not working. And I may agree to disagree, but it's really refreshing to have those people in your life that can tell you, you know, give you really honest feedback.

SPEAKER_00 35:40

Amazing. That's a great story of resilience. Now, at the end of the podcast, we're gonna ask, you know, for a piece of advice, which we always do for everybody. So I don't want to ask that question, or if but where does that resilience come from? Because I imagine a lot of people, well, we know that a lot of people can't get that next job and do give up and go back somewhere else. What is it in you that is it because you can you still had your your bar card? Is it because you had savings? Like what allowed you, what what m what gave you the sort of inner strength to just keep going and making this second career work?

SPEAKER_03 36:30

It was I think it was really like to prove a lot of people wrong. There's part of that, you know, there's part of, hey, you know, if I know I can do this job and I know I can do it well. I know I have stories to tell that have not been seen, you know, on TV yet or or in film. And there was all there's that there's a fire, I think, in in writers, you know, that just that wanting to that you have a story to tell and you're gonna tell it somehow, somehow, whether it's on a Substack or whether it's on a blog or whether it's you know on a television show. And I think that that that that yearning to get that out to do that, I think there is that fear of like also I'm driven by the fact that I gotta keep the lights on and you know pay my insurance and you know feed my family. But there's yeah, I think there has to be something internally within you because yes, I could very well do that by going back to be an attorney or getting a job that is not in the industry. But if I, if there was a way for me to finagle another, you know, something else, let me let me just do it. And, you know, the other thing that was like I had worked on and my resume shows, I've worked on a ton of medical shows, medical procedural shows. I have not a lick of medical training. Um, although, you know, now I I love trying to diagnose people when I just see them, you know, as if I'm Dr. House or something. Um, maybe that comes from when I was an assistant on house, you're just always looking at all the symptoms. But um it really was what I did was I made sure that, yes, my CV, my resume said one thing. These were the shows that I was employed on, that where I was getting paychecks from. But my spec pilots were very different. They were serialized, they were dark, they were, you know, super, they had really oddball characters. They had things that for me that were just super interesting. So they didn't reflect, you know, the medical procedural, they weren't procedurals at all, but they were just things that I was interested in. And I think that that ability to show your personality and your, you know, writing, your creativity, whatever, you know, coupled with obviously like I have, you know, my resume made for a really good combination going forward. It had let me meet on a bunch of different shows that weren't traditionally, you know, what my resume would have said I should go meet for, which is really how I got Manifest. You know, Manifest was um after I left the Good Doctor, um, which, you know, was a great experience. I worked there for a couple of years, but I was like, I can't be the medical girl anymore. I've been doing this for almost 10 years. And um, David Shore was very gracious and let me out of my contract because I asked to go. Um, much to again, people are like, you're leaving the number one show on the planet. What are you what are you doing? Um, but I wanted to go see what else I could do. And you know, I was in a position in my career where I thought, like, let me try to go see that. And I met on a few shows and Jeff Rake met me for manifest. I'm like, wait, you're like sci-fi and kind of this drama, and I have no idea, like, if this is something I can do. And I took that job precisely for that reason because I wanted to challenge myself. You're not the sci-fi girl, you're not this kind of genre person, but he thinks that there's something in your storytelling that, you know, would make you an asset to their team. So go, go try it. Go. You, this is exactly what you wanted. You didn't want to go do, you know, Bakersfield PD, you know, or something. Like you wanted to go do something that was unique and different. So that's what I did. And I had the best time. It was so great. I learned so much. I got to experience so much, and I really, you know, it was uh it was nothing but an incredible experience.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

I'm gonna I'm gonna scratch off Bakersfield PD from my list of pitches for this event. Uh uh, you you're actually talking about something that we got into last week. And so I want to stay here for one more second, which is the idea that your CV, Jeffrey Lieber was talking about this as well, who, you know, did Lost and then he did a few networky stuff. And he's like, people think you're a reflection of your credits, and you're really not. And that's a big, and even within our industry, the showrunners who read you, the writers who should know better, the studio who hires writers, it's like you've been on six, in your case, medical shows. They think you can only do medical shows when in fact your own writing is wildly different, and you somehow accidentally got on the first one, which led to the second one, then the third, the fourth, the fifth. And that's not exactly who you are as a writer. So moving to you today present, you're on a 30-minute dromedy, very different. Are you excited that you're getting to explore a whole new avenue of your person of your writing personality?

SPEAKER_03 41:05

Oh, 100%. Like in you hit the nail on the head as far as like, I think it's very, it's kind of human nature, right? It's we see something, we read something, we you know, meet someone. You want to put them in a box. And as much as, you know, we know that that's right or wrong, it's wrong, but you know, that the people are multi-layered and multi-textured and multi-dimensional, it's the way that we have been taught to process, you know, society and people, like very quickly, you know, it's and I think that that happens very quickly with your resume, right? Oh, she's medical procedural. Great, put her over there. You know, I would never be considered probably at that time for something like Lost, just to bring that up, which I loved. And I would have probably, you know, given my left arm to go right in. But I they would never in a million years consider somebody like me, you know, um, you know, and so I think that that um the ability to be able to, like I said, do manifest. And then when this opportunity with clean slate came up, it was because Dan Ewan, who co-created the show with uh with George and Laverne, he and I had met each other a million years ago when we were both assistants and just kept in touch through friends and we would see each other at parties, we had kids at the same time, and you know, just being really supportive of each other's careers. And he came to me and said, Hey, they want to make my show. And I've never produced like TV before. I've written movies and I've worked on in a room like a million years ago, but I need someone who I know, who I know will really advocate and defend the material and who knows how to produce television. And I just said, Dan, they're never gonna hire me. I'm I don't, I'm not a one, I'm not a half hour person. And he said, Who cares? And so I really am so thankful to Dan Ewan for saying that because then I said, All right, well, who cares? Sure. And so I took meeting after meeting and I met with, you know, with the fine folks at Act Three, which is Norman Lear's production company. And I met with Laverne Cox and her team. And at every turn, people kept saying yes. And Sony said yes. And then Freevie said yes, and they're like, okay, we're making your deal. And it was just like, I'm gonna work in half hour. This is amazing. And with Norman freaking Lear, you know, I was like, this is mind-blowing. So it's been, it's been a great education and it's been a great experience. And, you know, again, it's knowing what you know and knowing what you don't know. I am not the funniest person in the room. I'm not even the fifth funniest person in the room, but I know story, I know heart, I do know humor, and I know, you know, how to execute that. And so I lean on these incredible voices that we have who have, you know, a multitude of not just writing and comedy, but are stand-up and comedic actors and have done, you know, all sorts of improv. And, you know, and they just, it's again, it's lifting the material. That's what that's what I love about TV, that collaborative process is really like, you know, taking everything from everyone and making it better, doing punch up. We did that at Manifest. We would Page turns there. It's not, you know, it was a you know genre kind of drama and it had a lot of sci-fi. But we really were, you know, taking everybody's thoughts and into consideration and taking pitches. It was like, oh yeah, that's a way better life. Great, thank you. You know, and moving forward, I don't I don't have any kind of um ego about like, oh, well, my word is the written word and this is all it is, because no, you know, let the let the cream rise to the top.

SPEAKER_01 44:29

You make a great point about, I mean, there's the this industry has so many roadblocks, they're just outside roadblock all the time. But uh, one of the roadblocks that we're not thinking about is the roadblocks we place in front of ourselves. And you had placed a roadblock in front of yourself and then removed that roadblock and found that in fact there was no roadblock on that road after all, and that the only block might have been you, which is really interesting to think about when people are too scared to approach certain things and they don't feel like they they can do it. And I was talking to someone about imposter syndrome recently, someone was up for a really big job, and I'm like, on one hand, it's all imposter syndrome. On the other hand, we really are all imposters. On the other hand, we really are all really talented. So, like, there's a mixture of everything going on. And if you don't think you can go for it, then you shouldn't have the job. But if you do think you should go for it, then you should have the job because you are as talented as other other people, and you know, they're they're happy to have you. But unfortunately, uh, we are you know hitting this time on this podcast where we have to ask our last question, which longtime listeners will know, including you, because you said you've listened, which is if you can give one piece of advice to somebody uh joining this industry, in this case as a screenwriter, TV writer, what would it be?

SPEAKER_03 45:42

I mean, it sounds so simple, but you gotta write. You know, it I find it so disheartening when people are like, I want to write, I want to do this. I'm like, great. And if you offer, you know, if someone does offer, never extend yourself to say, will you? But like read something, just like it's just not ready yet. I'm not done yet. Or you know, I haven't gotten to it yet. That's like if you want to be a writer, you have to you have to write. And and I want you, you know, and take the time to really uh put that scope, you know, put your material under the microscope. And if you can find people who will give you honest feedback, take it, you know, people who will really want to have your best interest, and they do. And I I've found that like from all sorts of people, like they really want you to succeed, people want you to succeed. And um, but yeah, it's really disheartening when you meet people who are trying to start out and they want to be a writer, but they haven't written anything yet. But yeah, other than that, I think like, you know, I think that like anything, you know, we are telling stories that are reflections of ourselves, reflections of our communities, reflections of the world. And that's where I I said it multiple times probably throughout our conversation is about listening. It really is about listening. You know, there is so much to be garnered, not just when it comes to creativity, but also in personal lives and relationships. And um, I think I've become, you know, I I still have growth to do, but I think I've become a better listener since I got married, since I became a parent, since, you know, I've gotten in this job and now definitely as a show runner. And I hope I take those tools to, you know, create a better path and like, you know, be able to, you know, do it better the next time around, you know, learn from it and grow from it.

SPEAKER_00 47:26

Very good. It seems like such simple advice, but but um, but very true. So uh Simmer and Boydwan, thank you very much for being a part of the podcast. No trite answers anywhere. Um it was great to have you on. Really, really insightful, and you know, we went deep, and you were there giving the right sort of answers about all of the weird worlds that you work in and how you navigate it. So thank you for your insights. And thank you for watching. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 47:57

No, I really appreciate your time and your interest in Little Old Me. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 48:02

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 48:04

Take care.

SPEAKER_01 48:05

Well, that's a wrap on this episode of Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss. As always, this episode was brought to you by Scriptation, the screen writing and annotation software that at the very least has made my life easier and will make your life easier as well. Uh, we'd like to thank our wives who put up with us recording these episodes in our offices and basements and closets and bathrooms and anywhere we can get a little space to record an interview. And of course, we want to thank James Law who provided us with a great intro and outdrop meeting.

SPEAKER_00 48:38

Uh if you want to find us on social media, you can find Noah at NFLin on Twitter, tweeting a variety of writer-based nonsense and some terrible puns and occasionally begging for sponsorship. Uh if you want more refined tweets, mostly about football and whiskey, you can find me at Dan Rutstein. If you're interested in buying a copy of Scriptation, if you go to www.scriptation.com backslash stiffer, S-I-T-H-A, you'll receive a special discount. Thank you very much for listening. As always, we appreciate you. Uh please give us any feedback, mostly positive stuff about me, and we will see you next week.

SPEAKER_01 49:24

And if you do say a negative thing about Dan, there is a chance I might buy you a free copy of Scriptation.