Take 28 - Writer and showrunner Michael Fuller, Quarry, The Mosquito Coast

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for sure, dozens of unproduced scripts literature.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default to be able to be able to do. Like everything in a business, you're gonna be able to do it.

SPEAKER_05 0:43

I was being told by my manager that it's yours to lose. And I probably lost it. And I remember thinking like, well, that's it for me. I do my one big shot. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. I am Dan Rutstein in a bad mood today because of the wildfires, meaning they've shut the kids' school again after a whole year of it being shut. Noah, how are you?

SPEAKER_02 1:17

You being in a bad mood is a change from normal, or is that that's an adjustment? I'm excited. Uh today we have on the podcast TV writer Michael Fuller. Michael worked as a writer on many of my favorite TV shows, including Rectify, Damnation, and Lock and Key. He also co-created Quarry for Cinemax, and you can currently find him working on the Mosquito Coast, which is a show I'm actually really loving right now. Fun fact Michael is also an actor. He was on Chappelle's show as the underrated character Man in Restaurant. Welcome, Michael.

SPEAKER_03 1:48

Thank you. Thank you. Yes, that that was me, Man in Restaurant on Chappelle's show. I was also uh zombie Chloe Kardashian on uh on the on The Soup when I was a writer's assistant on that show. So it's an illustrious acting uh resume for me, really. And I think you know, it's like it's really it takes a lot to pivot to writing from such uh terrific roles. So are you are you only a writer because you failed so miserably at acting? I mean, in a lot of ways, yes. Uh no, I so I went to I went to school for and studied uh acting and writing. And in college, those are really fun majors to you know be enrolled in, to be in a theater program. And you just go and you know, like I have friends who are uh majoring in economics and coming home with like stacks of books and giant calculators that I didn't even know they made. And and then like there I am, like, you know, doing a meditation exercise and like writing down what I think a character feels. And so it was like it was a fun major, but that I was also passionate about. But I always, I always and I always wanted to pursue both acting and writing, but I always knew that writing was much more um what I was drawn to and what I was, you know, had the fire in my belly for, so to speak. And that, you know, I'm very glad that I studied acting and I gave it, I gave it a bit of a shot when I first moved out here 17 years ago now. Uh, but it was I remember very vividly being at like a 1-800 Dennis commercial um early on, like the first couple of months I was out here, and I was like, this dialogue sucks. This is terrible. And I was like, you know what? Like, this is not like because the people who are gonna get the 1-800 Dennis commercial are the ones who are like, whatever this bullshit is, I'm gonna say it and I'm gonna sell it, and that's gonna be the thing. And for me, I just couldn't bring myself to do it in that way. And also, like, I don't know that I was that good at it, but I enjoyed it, you know, and and I'm glad I did it because it did help me uh tremendously when it came to to writing. Um, I think I think I I actually it's one of the things I encourage writers to do, is I say read acting books, take an acting course, because at least then you know what uh the actors you're writing for are working with.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

I'm this isn't really what we normally talk about, but I'm fascinated by actors in commercials. So we we on my other podcast, I had an actress on, and she's been in lots of TV shows, but I've seen her in loads of commercials, including like she was once in a Super Bowl commercial for NyQuil, and I remember texting her saying, I just saw you in the Super Bowl. And then I had her on the podcast, and I sort of wanted to ask her about it. And I got the sense that even though she's done many more uh adverts and she has done TV stuff, she sort of didn't want me to ask lots of questions about, you know, how was it you know lying in a bed for a NyQuil advert? What's the writing equivalent of being in 1-800 dentist adverts?

SPEAKER_03 4:32

Uh that's a that's a great question. I think the writing equivalent of that would be um writing. I I would say it's when a producer comes to you and says, I have an idea for a web series, but there's no idea and there's no money. And can you just do something for me and make it good, and then I'm gonna take it and run with it? So it's like it's where there's like it's a web series, but it's nothing. Not the web series aren't anything. I'm saying, like, there's actually nothing there, there's no money for it. They just they have an idea that could be that like something is basic. I think that's the that would be the equivalent.

SPEAKER_02 5:08

I think, no, what do you what would you oh I think for sure we're gonna get into some conversations about spinning our wheels on things. I think you're right. That I think um certain uh pitches that were you may get paid a little bit of money for something for like a sizzle reel or a teaser reel, but often we get paid nothing. Um, but we're about I want I want one one little question. We're gonna get into the meat of this podcast in a second, into the really juicy failure stuff. Uh and this might be a huge failure in your career, I don't know, but I saw on your IMDBP IMDB page, and I need to ask about it. You are credited as the typist on the Naked Brothers band. What is that? And why would you ever leave a job like that?

SPEAKER_03 5:50

So, so that was actually uh a terrific job and came along at a time when I was I desperately needed a job period. I was working at gyms uh when I first moved out here and in between um, you know, some personal assistant gigs and and things of that nature, and some of those jobs like we're talking about, where a producer's like, I don't know, here's three lines I read in something. Can you turn this into a pitch? And it's like this isn't a thing, but I'm gonna do it. And it's the Nyquel uh advert equivalent. And so Naked, the Naked Brothers Band was a show uh created by Polly Draper, who's an actress uh was an actress on 30-something, and she uh wrote it for her two sons who uh were incredibly and are incredibly musically talented and great actors. And if you go look at the um who they are, who they ended up grew up to be, it's um the kid from Hereditary, the who like they ended up being uh legitimate actors who did things. They were great actors then too. And basically the show was about their little, it was it was like a Nickelodeon show about their little kids' band and like them going on tour and having adventures and that kind of thing. And Polly uh is it was a knew exactly how to write for her children. It wasn't like a traditional writer's room situation. She just basically did everything herself, but she needed someone who was versed in software and versed in structure, versed in those kind of things to work with her on, you know, just taking what her ideas were and scripts that were already written and just kind of cleaning them up. And it was, I mean, so it was a good friend of mine's wife was a producer on the show in New York, but they were she was writing it back here in LA. And so I just went and I just went to their house uh up in the hills, their awesome house, and the two little dudes running around like learning nirvana songs on the piano and stuff, and uh shooting basketball at them and stuff in between writing. And we would just, you know, like she and I would come up with story ideas, but mostly take what she already you know had in mind and kind of massage it and shape. But yeah, that's the kind of gig. And it that was actually one that was really fun because it was a the you know, the kids were there and they were cool, but it was that's the kind of gig that you know when you're trying to break through, it's like that comes along and it's like great, it's money, it's actually doing the thing, and uh it's good people, which made it even better because she was terrific to work with.

SPEAKER_02 8:08

And and yeah, it's amazing they called you uh typist and not and not a like a writer's assistant or something else. But okay, let's let's get into let's get into the meat. Yeah, um, this is my this is my question. You you you created a show called Quarry that people love. They love. I mean, anytime you kind of talking into our in a circle of friends and writers about different shows, your quarry will often come up as one that people just adored. You you created it, it looks like fairly early in your writing career. I mean, you had been on a few things, but like you somehow you got this show off the ground. It lasted one season, if I'm not not correct. So at some point it got canceled, incorrect. Do you view like where do how do you view Corey now in your in your spectrum of things? Is it a it was it a like because it's so iconic now, huge success, failure didn't last longer. Where was your head out when it was canceled? That kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03 8:59

Well, so now, and you know what? It's actually uh a recent guest of yours, Glenn Rosara, who put it into great perspective for me personally when I was uh talking to you about it on the heels of when it was canceled. And and uh just going back to I'll start, I'll start chronologically and go back to the cancellation of it and then and then you know go kind of go up to where I am now with it. Uh, it it was heartbreaking. Um, you know, it was it was brutal because it was, you know, Graham Gordy, who was my uh co-creator and and co-writer on it, uh, it was uh it was something that we had poured pretty much every bit of ourselves into for at that point five years. And that was to get, you know, to get one season on air. And it was kind of like, you know, all at the time we and we were so close to getting uh a second season. We essentially had uh a blinking green light, we had a second season writers' room, all the scripts were written. Um and and then there was a regime change uh at HBO, and they, you know, as as what happens, the new boss came in and had different priorities, and and Cinemax programming specifically wasn't as much of a priority, and we kind of got uh lost in the shuffle there. But it was, it was it was heartbreaking because it was uh you know something that I I mean, and there's so much uh of that beyond just the work that you put into it and the the uh you know the cliche of blood, sweat, and tears. But there's a lot of very personal things for me in that show. Uh I was never a hitman who killed people for money, and thankfully I was uh very I'm very grateful that I was never in the Vietnam War. But a lot of the personal dynamics, a lot of those things are very uh very emotionally uh important elements of my life. So there's a lot of my own. So I'm very connected to it and it's very personal in that way. Um and so yeah, it was, it was uh it was it was a death, man. It was, it was really like, you know, I mourned that thing for you know a good long while. But then it was, and and I remember, and Glenn was someone who crystallized it for me and talking to him about it uh afterwards. But it's a it's a you know, looking back on it, I'm so incredibly proud of it. I'm so incredibly proud of the work we did. I'm I'm so glad that we got to spend the five years, even though it resulted in one season and a second season of written scripts, in that world and in that space, and that I got to experience, you know, so many incredibly talented people coming together to um, you know, make that show that we worked, Graham and I worked so incredibly hard on, and then to see other people take that and inform it with their own brilliance and creativity and and and elevate it beyond anything we could have imagined. And so I look back on it and it's bittersweet, you know. There, I I still uh and looking around, I still feel like we could have, we, you know, we we know there was a lot more meat on the bone narratively, but um, you know, the fact that I also think the fact that, as you say, like it has been um even even with it, you know, just getting the one season, there seems to be a a lot of uh goodwill towards it and a lot of love for it. And I think that that's something that that means as much as any you know second season may have. You know, like we we obviously all just we all want to keep working and keep telling the story. And it's like you get one, you get in the door on one, let's stay here for as long as the story demands and as long as we feel like we can. And um, so so yeah, at the time it was brutal and it was as big a it was as big a heartbreak as I have ever felt uh in this industry. But then looking back on it, it's it's only because it was such a huge uh success that I felt that way, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

So given you've listened to this podcast before, you know that I'm now gonna ask you some more detailed questions about that heartbreak. So when you find out it's cancelled, what are the sort of percentage splits between they've screwed me over? You know, if these execs don't know what they're doing, I can't believe I'm a victim of the system, versus if I if I had made the show just a little bit better, it would have been harder for them to cancel. Like, what's that? And sorry, to be clear, I'm not saying your show wasn't very good, but I know other have had this sort of thing. So, like, how much of it are you angry at them, and how much of it are you second guessing yourself?

SPEAKER_03 13:24

How much, yeah, how much of it is shaking your fist at the TV gods, uh real or or perceived, and how much of it is is self-punitive in terms of what did I, what more could I have done and what what did I do wrong? I, you know, as far as the execs themselves, it wasn't even like it was as pure a business uh decision because they were great, they were very complimentary of the show. We had tremendous support there before that happened, and even you know, the I think they if they had wanted to continue doing the show, so I didn't I didn't have as much uh of the like I didn't have that animosity. It was more of a it was more of a universal like, damn, we worked so hard on that. And and I feel like we really deserved another season. But like with the regime change and anybody who's gone through this, whether it's something they have in development or a show they're staffed on or whatever, you you just kind of you you should prepare yourself if that happens to anyone listening or whatever for the fact that like a new boss is gonna have different priorities. And that's nothing personal about anything that you've done in terms of you know, the show you made, the show you worked on, what you did in terms of development process. As far as uh myself, it was myself, there was there was a lot of soul searching uh for me because it was, you know, did we not, you know, there were there were things that the network uh because Cinemax is owned by HBO and HBO access the studio on it, and so it's kind of all under the umbrella, but Cinemax, you know, so you kind of have an HBO boss, but your Cinemax was the day-to-day on everything. And there were things, there were times they would they would, you know, push us into what they saw as more of a uh of a different direction and we would push, which is just the dance that you do when you're working on a show and it's you know, and but there were times where it was, did I did we push back on the wrong thing? Should we have done you know more taken more of their feedback and and uh and not you know not pick that battle necessarily? Uh and you know, a lot a lot of soul searching in that way. But I think as far as the creative goes, because we did have, we we did, as much as we would go, you know, through the process and the rigmarole of you know, figuring out what the show is, which every season, first season of a show goes through, uh we we always ultimately felt like we landed on the same page. And I feel so proud of how the show ended that I it wasn't a oh, we should have done more of X or we should have done more of Y. I think it was, you know, it was honestly more it was more TV, like anger at the TV gods and not even at the specific execs. Just like how how did we, how did the timing of this just so happen to fall to where if we had been three months earlier or six months earlier, we would have gotten that second season. You know what I mean? And I think and and um knowing that executives make their decisions for have incredibly valid reasons for why they make their decisions that have nothing to do with the quality of the show, but have to do with the fact that, you know, at that point uh there was HBO was part of uh Time Warner, Time Warner was about to be bought by AC. You know what I mean? There was things happening at levels in rooms that will, you know, I'll never even remotely take coffee to. So it's it's a matter of you know how much of that was uh was was on us and what we did, and how much of that was on the it was more just the honestly, the thing I was the most uh upset about was like the timing of things because I knew just if things had been, if the window had been three months before when we had premiered, we would have had that great shot at a second season, you know. It was like the timing just felt uh felt crappy.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

Obviously, theoretically, a cancelled show is a cancelled show, but you know, we've had uh Sean Simmons came here and told us about, you know, well with Wayne the whole network got cancelled rather than the show as such, but it came back to life in a different place. But even I think Johanneson said that Lucifer got cancelled more often than it got renewed. Um so is there a part of you because of that sort of thing happening that sort of secretly hopes that you'll just randomly get a phone call and email saying, okay, guys, you know, you're coming back to life on a different one? Or are you and in some ways, do you want to have that hope, or would you rather not have it so you can just have it as a complete boxed-off part of your mind?

SPEAKER_03 17:30

Uh my therapist would tell you that I should do the latter and just have it as a backstop part of my mind. But creatively, uh, you know, spiritually, um and practically, I would, if somebody called and said that, I would, you know, and I know I can speak for Graham, uh, and I can speak for Greg Utanus, who was our director on it and our our partner through it all, that the three of us would absolutely jump at that opportunity. And we have, you know, like I said, we have, we we would have to obviously change things because of the layout, but like uh so but it's not something that I, for self-preservation reasons, I don't pine for that necessarily. You know, like my my hope at this point is that like the other Cinemax shows that have migrated to HBO Max, that uh Corey can make that um that transition soon because I think it would get to a wider audience. And just like just like Wayne, Sean, Sean and I have become uh you know, good buddies because of our shows kind of suffering a similar fate in that way, and and seeing like the life that Lucifer had, the life that Wayne had after that, and and not even necessarily like, oh, if it gets on there, maybe then just wanting more people to see it, because so many talented people, myself and Graham, notwithstanding, but did so much incredible work on it that I think deserves to be uh you know readily accessible. So that that's the thing I I pine for the most.

SPEAKER_02 18:46

You heard it, you heard it here first, by the way, uh HBO, they are willing to have the show back on the air. So just if we all the execs are listening, we are they are ready to go with quarry season two. All right.

SPEAKER_03 18:57

Thank you, Noah. That's good. I'm gonna give you 10% if it happens.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

So you you said when we first asked, when Noah first asked about it, that you know, you were in you're in mourning and you were heartbroken when the news came through. So you know, you've got uh pets, you've got spouse, you've got kids. What does that look like when you're heartbroken? Is this sort of you know, kicking the dog and shouting at the kids, or is it just sitting in a room not talking to anyone? What talk us through the days of what being heartbroken on something that's nothing to do with the family looks like?

SPEAKER_03 19:33

Well, so I I've I've fortunately when this went down, I was my my oldest daughter was was very, very young. Um, and so I was in the throes of first year of parenthood. And also uh because the fate was uncertain, there was a long lag time between when the show finished airing and when we found out uh if we were picked up or not. And um the show was shopped to other networks, but didn't ultimately uh land anywhere. Um I was I was on another show and went to Damn Nation. I got I got that job in between us finding because it, you know, just out of practicality. But also, so the it was it was a very long drawn-out process. There was a lot of uh a lot of listening to to quarry playlists that I had made from you know, great it's set in the 70s and like in Memphis. So great, like um, you know, Stax music, a lot of a lot of Otis Redding uh was listening to. If you've watched the show, the the significance of that um will make sense and a lot of uh a lot of bourbon drinking and and kind of you know thinking about like, well, what's the what's the next thing gonna be? And like trying to, on one hand, completely pivot, you know, I in the immediate aftermath of that. I had like a big crazy sci-fi uh idea that I had been kicking around. I was like, no, I'm gonna go a completely different direction. But I also had this um other this other book I had found that was about a southern bounty hunter, and that felt very much in the quarry mold. And it was just kind of, you know, it was it was a lot of like uh the you know the memes of Ben Aff like smoking a cigarette or staring out at the ocean. Um, it was a lot of that. Uh, and then trying to just figure out what that next uh that next thing is gonna be uh to get out in front of it. But I think what what I was doing was ultimately ignoring, like I actually did need to grieve the show uh in a lot of ways in that that experience. And I think, you know, and I think also probably because you know, as you go on, as you are are staffed on more shows or or as you have more shows that you've created that that are on, the experience will change and you won't it won't be as much of a you know potentially dark night of the soul. But you know, that that being that that was the first uh that I created and and poured everything into. And so um, you know, I I I I'd poured myself into work in a lot of ways and and and thankfully didn't take it out uh on my wife and daughter uh or the dogs uh too much, but I did, I did, you know, smoke some more cigarettes than I normally would have now I've quit entirely. Uh and you know, drink some more uh bourbon than I probably would have. And you know, then just try to pick myself back up and find that resiliency to figure out what the next thing was gonna be.

unknown 22:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:11

We had we had Mickey Fisher on a while back, and your story reminds me of his story a little bit with Extant, where he created this show, lasted a series a season and then, or lasted two seasons in that case, and then was canceled. And then he went back to staff for a while before creating Reverie. Then I think he went back maybe to staff again or to co show run and then is now working with the Obamas on something. So for you, you've you created this big show. And I think for that, that's like what most writers I know in this town who have come here are aspiring to is their own show, something on the air that they have their name on. And then it ends, and the realities of this business hit you, where it could take years to get your next show on the air. You have a family, you have a job, you also have desires to work for other people who have different skills that might give you certain skills that will bring you will bring into your next show. You mentioned Tony Toast, who I know is super talented. So you have, you know, you can be under him for a bit. What is that journey like when you when you go from number one or sharing number one to like number two or three in a room, and then you're trying to go back to number one or just hanging out there because it's working for you for the time being?

SPEAKER_03 23:17

You know, I think the uh that's a great question and such a practical, obviously, what we're like how we approach things. And and um for me, I just I love being in a writer's room, like in a good writer's room. It's just my it's my favorite place. And you know, obviously we've been we've been virtually in them, but like it's uh for the past year, but like just the when it's good and when everybody's locked in and it's a good energy and and everyone's you know immersed in the show in that way, and you you've got a clear goal, whether it's the scene or the the episode or the season itself, and you're all just kind of working towards that. I just love that, and I love like working with people like Tony, um, you know, like Meredith uh Averill and Carlton Kews on Lock and Key, who I greatly respect and admire their work and see what you know their their uh goals are with the show, and then what you know, how can I help them best with what I can do, help them best achieve those uh goals. And I think, you know, uh for a lot of people, I think that adjustment could be tough. I think, but I think like as long as people understand, like, hey, this is part of the and and everything like I learned uh so much from going to work with with Tony, and I learned have learned so much from going to work from Carlton and Meredith, things that had I not been, had I just been focused on what's my next show that I'm gonna do, that I'm gonna be uh you know creating and running, which I'm was developing all along, that you know, those shows afforded me that opportunity. But um, but I think it's it's it's just embracing the the opportunity to learn uh and contribute into something that you believe in uh and and to a creator or uh you know that you also uh really believe in and how can you best benefit the show because you're gonna benefit just by virtue of of doing it. So it's it's an experience that, you know, and I know I've I've talked to other people or heard other of other people who've had, and understandably so, you go from like it's your you're calling all the shots or you're in on calling all the shots uh to just being asked for your input on things, then you're not calling really any shots. But I think there's there's just there's joy in the process, you know what I mean? Whatever, whatever uh level you're at, I think there should just find the joy in the process.

SPEAKER_02 25:35

This is you know sort of an interesting discussion for the people listening who are just beginning their careers or really want to get in the business, the idea that um you don't just create a show and then create many more shows after that, that there's this whole back and forth that people do. I do know some showrunners who have absolutely refused, once they had their showrunner shot, creator shot, to ever work on staff again. They were either going to be showrunner or they're gonna be nothing. And some of I knew a couple people who didn't work for a few years because of that, because it there's a lot of showrunners who have kind of made it to the top. And you're not always, depending on your on on where you've been before, you you don't always get the shot for show number two. And those who have decided that I want to keep working no matter what kind of seem to have a longer career and eventually get more shots. Um, are you, you know, like in your head now, are you sort of, you know, always trying to get the next show in the air still? Or is it just is that always the goal, or is it kind of a combo of like work, learn from other people? If I get my shot again, I'm gonna, you know, take a bigger swing.

SPEAKER_03 26:38

I am I am always on uh two tracks. One is developing my own uh projects to get that shot and then concurrently uh, or in between that, you know, while those things are happening, develop, you know, being in a room and being on staff. And and because to me, my I tried to, I was, you know, trying to thread a bunch of needles and and for I was trying to, I was in the I'm just gonna get the next thing on air, I'm just gonna get the next thing on air after quarry, even though I was staffed on damnation, which was uh a terrific experience with Tony in that room. But I was at that point, I was like, I'm just gonna get the next thing on air, I'm just gonna get the next thing on air. But then I realized, like, I was actually by doing that and focusing on that too much, I was it was the, you know, I I think we're we're all uh similar age. It's something you saw a lot, I think, with in the feature world with screenwriters who kind of came up in the 90s uh and cut their teeth on that, where it was like, I have this one script, I have this one, this one feature script, and now it's like I have this one pilot script that's gonna be the thing, and and it's that kind of lottery ticket mentality where I was, I'm gonna just do this one, this next thing is gonna be the thing, and then I'll have my own show again. And then I realized uh, and and that's actually a thing I'm still in development on, but it's it's not practically, it's no way to do things, but also emotionally, like I don't for me, uh it's it's just it's really beneficial to be exercising those creative muscles on something where it's not everything isn't falling on uh my shoulders. And I can, you know, I can come in and I can contribute and I can have a voice in the process uh creatively, practically, because I do have you know extensive production experience uh and all those things. And I can be an asset to something where it's not all on me, and then I can, you know, in between those jobs uh work on you know my own thing. So and and get that, you know, work to get that next thing on. And then whatever, whatever comes along first, whether it's that sold this project or here's an uh excellent staffing opportunity with somebody, a show that I really think has a lot of potential, like you know, Mosquito Coast, the Mosquito Coast being a great example. It's Neil Cross, it's um based on an incredible book that I've always loved, and and uh it's with Apple, who's doing so so many incredible things. It's like great, I'm gonna jump at that and do everything I can to land that because it also just then opens you up to more people and more experiences and more um, you know, potential avenues to work, whether it is your own thing or whether it is partnering with the showrunner on something that becomes you your own thing together. You know, I mean it's just it's a it if people can wrap their head around it, and I'm you know, not everybody can, as you're saying, and that's not a uh um knock or a or a virtue that you can, but I think if you can, it it really will serve uh you well to people who are striving for that.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

I'm gonna ask you a slightly unfair hypothetical, if I may. So you get to create your own you get to create your own show. So you're definitely the showrunner, you're the creator. But there's two versions here. One is you get to absolutely write your your soul, like the one you really, really, really want. But it's only gonna go for one season and then it's done. Or you get to create a show, but you know it's a sort of slightly lazy, easy. Somebody's sort of said that you can do it this way, but you have to sort of do something that maybe is more commercial and certainly isn't your absolute dream, but it's gonna stay on air for 10 seasons with all of the job security and I'm sure money that comes with that. Which one would you do?

SPEAKER_03 30:22

So it I would have answered this question completely differently before I had children. Uh, and you and as as fathers, you guys could probably uh attest to that. My heart would say, give me the the one. You know, my my heart would always say, give me the one where I can do it the way the in the way that I most envision it, and and you know, get as much of that fish back to shore as I can, um you know, without with uh throughout the process. Uh that said, the second option is I think the thing that so many writers and that I needed, uh I myself, it was a lesson I needed to learn is that you're always gonna have it's gonna be that process, you know, and it's not you're gonna have that feedback, and you're gonna have people who have uh desires for, you know, who are who are bankrolling things, but uh that you're gonna have to factor in, and you that's part of the gig at that level is to uh you know put all those things together and make a make a tasty stew. Um and and so I think my heart is always gonna say, give me the one season that I feel, you know, like quarry being a good example, like I'm incredibly proud of what we did and feel like we did the version of the show that we, you know, by and large set out to do. Um and as much as I would love for you know to be in season 15 of Quarry uh and have you know merchandise all behind me of uh a 70s hitman in Memphis, um, Tennessee, uh, I feel like I know when people find the show, they may not, it may not work for them, but I know what they're watching is is authentic to what I and Graham and Greg and all of us set out to do, you know.

SPEAKER_02 32:01

Uh you you and I have talked um, you know, through DM and social media about the nature of this industry. And so as we're you know heading into the back end of this, I I want to ask a question just about your state of mind. Things have gotten really hard in the industry for everybody. It's it's suddenly because of the pandemic and other reasons and the streamers and short seasons and all of this stuff, the the business that felt safe and lucrative, and maybe not nurturing is the right word, but a legitimate career for people is less so now. Has this angst reached you? Because I and you've you've been working really steadily, and I love your credits, but are you you know beginning to wonder about the nature of this job and also your your your your place and your happiness uh in doing so?

SPEAKER_03 32:49

Uh I mean absolutely. I think it would be uh you know unnatural if if I wasn't and it hadn't reached me. I think um you know it's it uh I think there was uh and and you know, as you said, no, you and I have discussed this somewhat, but like there was a there, I think there was a lot of things that were happening even before you deal with a global pandemic, uh, industry-wise. And I think the the global pandemic then came along and um you know dropped dropped the piano on the industry and and and uh and so we're still dealing with the repercussions of that and still will be for I think a little bit. And and yeah, I mean it's it's it's scary, particularly when you have, you know, a family, but but also just for you know, people some at any level and with any type of responsibilities, um, you know, something that seemed like it was uh, you know, just steadily humming along seems to now be uh contracting in a lot of ways and I and and evolving. I mean, that you know, you're you've seen the kind of the death of the mid-budget studio feature film. And so that's created a lot of, you know, uh the DGA is now dealing with a lot of directors who need who need gigs. And uh, you know, the writer's code, it's it's obviously been a content explosion and has been terrific for the uh writers as a whole. But like, you know, right now it definitely seems like um some things are are changing. And some of those are are those 30,000 feet uh, you know, mergers of of mega conglomerates. And some of those are um, you know, ground level, like it's you know, right now there's not a lot of show staffing um because you know, or there's not a lot of development happening because there's a backlog and uh a COVID-related backlog. So it's it's uh it's it's scary for sure. And and as someone who I I'm I'm used to and thrive on constantly working, so I'm gonna be working. It's just hopefully I'll be getting paid to do so. But it is like it's nice when uh I've been fortunate enough to be getting paid to do so for uh a good stretch here. And you know, facing that reality of like, hey, it may be a beat before that next gig comes down the pipeline is is you know, it's scary. Um, and and I and I say that as somebody who, as you said, like I, you know, at the level that I am, it's still it's still something that you know I I uh lie I crave cigarettes and lie awake at night thinking about.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

So I don't like to end these podcasts when they're interesting, but we do have to end them at some point. So um and I think you know the final question. So um if you could give a single piece of advice beyond maybe giving up cigarettes to somebody looking to end and and keeping drinking bourbon, um, to somebody entering the industry, what would that piece of advice be? Uh just write.

SPEAKER_03 35:46

Just write that that's the only thing that you're ever going to be able to control. And uh just write and don't worry so much and fixate so much on the uh thing that you perceive as being the uh uh impediment to your ultimate success. Whether it's you know, when you're starting out, if I could just get an agent or a manager, then the get, you know, uh open up the gates and everything would be uh hunky-dory for me. Because every every step of the way you get to, the only thing you can control is is your own craft, your own uh discipline. And if you focus on that as much as possible, things will open up for you. But if you just get so fixated on, I just need X, if I can only have Y, and also just run your own race as as much as that is probably something, and I know it's something you guys have uh heard before. It's it's really true. And I say that uh as much to diagnose myself because it's easy to get caught up in seeing what everybody else is doing and seeing the the trades. And on Twitter, people announcing, you know, they're doing things, and it's easy to get um kind of caught up in the why isn't this, you know. I talked to when I talked to a lot of people, it's like why, you know, how did they get that? How does this happen? How do I get into this room and everything else? And those are all great questions. And I wish I, you know, everybody's path is ultimately different. So it's you know, the only thing I could tell is just write, just do figure out your voice, always be uh as much as you can be working on developing it and working on doing what you're doing, and and you know, things will happen for you, but uh you know, it's just it's easy to get fixated on what you don't have, fixate on what you do have and what you can't control.

SPEAKER_00 37:29

Absolutely fantastic. Great advice. Look, Michael Fuller, show creator, writer, star of 1-800 dentist adverts. Thank you very much. I didn't book it. I didn't book it. So you didn't even book it.

SPEAKER_03 37:41

They're loss. No, I didn't even book it. They're loss. You're a big as well. I'm a failed, I'm a failed 1-800 dentist actor.

SPEAKER_00 37:49

Extraordinary. Wow, it's a new level of failure. Thank you very much for being part of the podcast. Thank you guys. Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_02 38:00

All right, that does it for us today. I want to thank you for tuning in to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss. If you have any questions or comments, you can reach out to me on Twitter. I am at NEBslin.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

Wait, are we are we not bothering to talk about the other Twitter account, given we have this great social engagement and people never bother to actually include me, whose idea it was to do this podcast in the first place?

SPEAKER_02 38:24

Do you have a Twitter account?

SPEAKER_00 38:26

I do have a Twitter account. It's at Dan Rutsteve. And not only now do I have another Twitter account, I also have two other podcasts. And I've some of our listeners have been saying, Dan, please tell us about your other podcasts. So our other podcasts are. Uh, what are my other podcasts? Oh, yes, United States of Dramerica, where I share a glass of whiskey and have a fascinating conversation. And America the beautiful game, where I talk about soccer in America and what it can learn from Europe.

SPEAKER_02 38:54

For our repeat listeners, uh, you can probably stop listening when Dan starts talking about his second and third podcast. Uh, that brings us to the end of another great episode. We, as always, want to thank our wives for putting up with our nonsense.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

Oh, dude.