Epilogue - Season One review

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for sure, dozens of unproduced scripts literature.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

For every single day, there is means. Sometimes even years. This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

That's the meaning we have to be able to persevere. Like everything in our business here depends on the council.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

I was being told by my manager it's yours to lose. And I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking like, well, that's it for me. I blew my one big shot. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

So welcome to Screaming into the Hollywood Abyss, which, as you all know by now, is a podcast about rejection failure and adversity in the entertainment industry. You also know that I am your non-entertainment co-host, Dan Rutstein. Now, we told you last week that we were doing a series finale, and we did indeed do that. We had the extraordinary Bill Lawrence of Ted Lasso and so many other things on the show, which was amazing. Noah and I had been talking a lot about whether during the season we should do commentary on each episode. So after a guest had finished, we should talk. And we we decided that it was a bit self-indulgent. So rather than just doing sort of 30 seconds at the end of each episode, we decided to do an entire episode of him and I talking about the series that we've just been on and the things we've learned and things that have gone along. So that's what we will be doing in today's epidural or epilogue, whatever you whatever you call it. So uh sorry, hello. No, I should have introduced you because you're actually here. Um, but uh and I was worried we messed up the intro.

SPEAKER_01 2:04

As always, on every episode of the podcast, Dan has spoken a little bit too long. And but yeah, no, Dan and I are anything, uh we are definitely self-indulgent. So we wanted to spend some time, you know, really going talking about these episodes and talking about our experience on it, because in many ways, I think for both of us and why we want to, you know, spend time talking about it is is this podcast was a you know a transformative experience, you know, in the doing the interviews and recording it and and talking to these people. And I think it might be worth a second kind of talking about our responses to you know the the experience of having so many amazing people on our show.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

Yeah, and I think it's worth saying that there are obviously we get audience feedback, and uh the most there's two pieces of consistent feedback we get on the podcast. One is that I am a much better podcaster than Noah. Uh yeah, obviously he's got some experience and tell some good stories about how he got rejected, but the the the general view is that I'm the one who sort of holds us all together with amazing podcasting skills. Um, and the second part is that I'm mean. They I have been accused of being mean to our guests, I've been and disrespectful, and I've been accused of being mean to Noah, which is probably not that fair, I don't think, but I guess wait until you find out what's been going on with Noah, and then you can judge how mean I've really been. So, Noah, tell us what's been going on that makes me a really horrible human being.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

This is this is my favorite part because I think the people listening are going to really dislike Dan, which is always my goal in any podcast episode we do. No, you know, and and I want to backtrack a little bit. There's been a lot of discussion between Dan and myself, and between my wife and myself, and about whether I'm actually going to talk about what I'm talking about next. And I've hinted about this on social media. I've talked about that I'm going through some health issues, I've talked about being immune compromised. I actually never have spoken about what was really going on with me. And it because it coincided with our podcast, uh, you know, almost exactly my diagnosis and what was happening, uh, we think it is worth talking about. And I think it's worth sharing because this is a podcast about adversity. And I was going through sort of the hardest adversity of my entire life by far. No, no, no question. And and and the reality is I had cancer and I have cancer. Uh and I I write about episode 20, somewhere in our 20s of our podcast, uh, I got diagnosed with non-Hodgkin's lymphoma. And it was an accidental diagnosis, and meaning we caught it by accident. I had no idea I had it. And I had just recently, I think about three weeks earlier, if Dan, is that correct? I had started my new job at NCS Hawaii. I was, you know, in a good place. I was excited to work again. And overnight, literally from one second to the next, when you get the phone call that you have this diagnosis that you have cancer, uh, your life changes. And you begin to reevaluate everything in your life. And uh, you know, Dan and I joke around and we pretend often on social media to not like each other. And I think deep down there's part of me that really doesn't like him. But Dan was the uh first person outside of my family. I think I told that I have this diagnosis. And I think, you know, it was really important to share. And I was kidding about not liking him. Dan's actually one of my closest friends. And, you know, I needed to tell somebody. And also there was some practical realities, which is, you know, what are we going to do with this podcast now that I'm sort of in a fight for my life? And uh, Dan, do you remember getting that call and kind of how we began to navigate that?

SPEAKER_00 5:49

Yeah, and it was really awkward because obviously I was both trying to sort of be sympathetic to you while also texting a whole load of people to see if they'd be interested in taking over your co-hosting responsibility because I didn't know what the survival rate was. Um, and the podcast was doing really well at the time. Um, no, but no, it was interesting. And those of you who listened to the episodes, I think we should apologize to Jonathan Lloyd Walker. It was probably our worst episode, and not because he wasn't an excellent guest, but Noah told me about his diagnosis about like an hour before we were due to record that episode. And for those who are regular listeners, you'll hear in the episode there's a real lack of dynamism from both of us because uh, and I say he was an excellent guest, but like we'd just heard this news. Noah was worried about whether he was going to survive. I was worried about whether the podcast was going to survive, and I think we just sort of weren't able, we we were trying to sort of process this while on a screen with each other, with a third person in the room just recording a podcast, and obviously he was oblivious to it as he should have been. Um, so it was it was very odd, and then it was just a strange backdrop throughout the whole series. It's sort of classic Noah. I I lost my job last year, and I for me, the whole rejection, failure, and adversity thing became a whole different kettle of fish because I was going through a sort of work-related identity crisis. What was I going to do next? I was homeschooling my kids because the school had been shut. So the first sort of 20 episodes of the podcast, I was battling that stuff. And not to be outdone, Noah decides instead to get an actual illness. So that for the second half of the season, even though I am now very much gainfully employed, he was battling with all of that. And we were on episodes where Noah had just come back from chemo, and we were recording an episode of the podcast, and people were talking about the pitch that failed and you know being fired from a job at a time when you know Noah was full of chemicals. So it was a really interesting dynamic.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

Yeah, there was definitely a few episodes that I had to record right after chemo, the Andy Horowitz episode in particular, had just come back, and that ended up going actually really well, where I think we, you know, I was present and I did begin to feel, you know, uh more and more tired as the treatment went on. Now, I do want to add a couple of things. Uh, one is I'm through treatment now. I am done with chemo. It it uh ended last week. My uh oncologists were 99% certain the cancer is gone. We did early scans, the cancer with my was responding really well to the chemo. Uh, I can't get a scan for a month, so I can't tell you definitively right now on this podcast the cancer is gone, but we're about like 99.9% sure the cancer is gone and all that I have to do is heal, which means that I got really lucky. But I do want to talk a little bit about adversity and those moments, you know, because this is a podcast where we sort of bare our souls and we've asked so many of our guests to bear their souls to talk about the emotional toll of their projects and their work. And, you know, obviously I'm working on a show that I love, you know, side by side with this diagnosis. And a couple, I had to make a couple of choices. And one of that was do I leave my job? Do I leave the podcast? Do I just focus on my health? And as I was getting information in the early days, you know, I found out I had a very aggressive cancer. I found out that um, you know, I had to start treatment immediately. I had no choice. I had to start this very aggressive chemo regimen that was going to make me really sick. And I had no choice. Those were it was either that or or not survive. So that was an easy choice. So I'm gonna do all those things. Uh and I went into a spiral, a spiral that I didn't talk about too much to, you know, the only person that really knows is probably my wife and maybe my parents uh who were involved in my treatment and and who flew up here to help, you know, even though I'm an adult, a middle-aged adult. Of course, you need your mom and dad when something like this happens, they became your world crumbles. And I had to figure out what to do. And I remember being really scared because it's the C-word, it's cancer, and I might not come out the other side of it. And I, you know, began to read everything because that's what I do. I'm obsessive. I began to read statistics, prognosis, and these are things that I wasn't even sharing with Dan or my friends. Like it's it's you know, if you're gonna get cancer, get non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, it's treatable. But I had a very aggressive one, and prognosis was good, but not great. And I had to stop um looking at all the statistics because it was making me depressed, it was making me nervous, it was making me anxious. And I had and I realized one night, and I began to and I did a couple of things immediately, which is I decided A, I was going to survive. There was, I was gonna shut my mind off to any other options. B, I realized that I was going, I needed to cut out everything that was causing cancer in my life. So I completely radically changed my diet. Uh, took out all foods that could hurt me, took out all chemicals in my life that could hurt me, completely just said, like, I am not going to lose this battle. I'm going to war, and these are the things I'm going to do. And I also kind of reset my mindset. And I reset my mindset by going, I I am not going to succumb to this. I mean, I might. And again, you can never turn your back to cancer. Cancer can can take anyone at any time. But I had to not think that way. And I had to think, I'm going to stop looking at there's a 30% chance of survival, there's a 60% chance of survival, there's an 80% chance of survival. And I had to start thinking, right now, at this second, I have 100% chance of survival until things go differently. Until I start to get signs that it's going south. Right now, at this second, I have a hundred percent chance of survival. And the moment I thought that, the anxiety went away. The anxiety and the anxiety, I've never been this anxious, where it feels like you're drowning in anxiety. Like you can't breathe because you're like, you don't know how, you know, you're you're in fight, you're literally in fight or flight mode. And the moment I said, I have a hundred percent chance of survival, that's what I'm gonna set my mindset on until the until I get indicators that things are you know going in a different direction, the anxiety dropped. And I began to face my my treatment and my chemo with that attitude. And also something else happened. Uh, and I don't know if Dan, you know, you realize this, and it was in the podcast as I was talking to people, there was so much gratitude for the life I have. I have an amazing family, I have amazing friends, I have an amazing job. And I, you know, I I so keenly felt sort of just the beauty of my existence in a way that I had forgotten. And that helped. So anytime I got scared or anytime I got nervous, I just had to remember how beautiful my world was. And that really helped in my interviews, in talking to people. And we're gonna connect it back to the podcast now about all the people who had faced their own adversity, how kind of I was, you know, their stories sort of really helped uh ground me as well. And of course, we're all talking about different things, but I think really, in many ways, the podcast helped, the podcast in my job helped ground me and helped ground my mental health in a way that having quit would have kind of caused me to probably spiral.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

And it's interesting, obviously, your your podcasting abilities didn't get any better when you were sick. And your questions your questions got better, not because you actually listened to the feedback I gave you, but because you started thinking about questions related to your own life. You can you can see a switch in your types of questions. There was lots more. Um, do you actually enjoy this life? Because you know, there is a version of a writer who doesn't like writing. Um, you know, there was lots of writing your soul, not sort of chasing money, uh, you know, what fulfillment do you get? There was lots of like deeper questions that you were coming up with as a result of whatever it was that you were going through. Um and that and that came through, which was which made for some really interesting made for some really interesting interviews. But it it's interesting because obviously, you know, we we're just uh you know, two people doing a podcast which earns us no money, and you know, we've we've turned down chances to have adverts and sponsors and so on because we don't want to have uh reads about selling mattresses in the middle of our podcast. So this is a hobby for both of us, but I think it's better been more than that, particularly because it's your industry, I guess. But accessing these sorts of people and hearing how they've overcome adversity, I think, has uh been really valuable for just grounding us both quite a bit.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

Valuable and inspirational, and and from you know, the person who's just starting their career and deciding to be an artist or anything, because obviously our listeners are not only screenwriters, but we have a wide array of people who understand what it means to put yourself out there and then fail, right? And and face rejection and adversity. But the interesting parallel that you know you referenced about me kind of being more open and listening, but I I definitely saw this parallel between the fight for my life, really, and the fight we have every day as an artist, right? The fight we have to overcome rejection, overcome failure, overcome adversity. And I realized, not in my own career, which is strange, but I realized during the course of this year with these interviews and my diagnosis, I became so acutely proud of the people that take on this every single day. Whether you're writing your first screenplay and entering a contest and you came in last or you didn't place, right? Whether you're already in your career and you lost a big pitch or whatever, whether you you have a TV show on and people hated the episode and you're reading all the reviews or a movie, or whether they love it all and you're doing well, we're, and I rarely swear on this podcast, we're, you know, all of us who are doing this, we're fucking warriors, you know, in a way that people can't fully understand, who don't put themselves out there. And I think if what our podcast does is normalize failure, so you feel more inspired to put yourself out there uh as an artist or a human being, but to also sort of take some away, take away some of that failure, the fear of failure. And and and I'm beginning to realize as a thesis, and you're gonna you're you're gonna hear it in the last few episodes if you listen to our last few episodes of this podcast, where my thesis on failure has totally changed, where it's like, you know, I really feel that that failure is an integral part of success. And I think that's what these interviews have taught me, and something that I didn't fully comprehend, you know, before I began this process. And you know, I'm curious, Dan, from somebody who is outside the industry, but also, you know, faces adversity. And I know for many people, you know, I'm gonna speak, you know, uh positively of my podcast co-host who went through a number of career upheavals. You know, you had a great job. You had a great job as a diplomat who decided you're gonna leave all of that. You braved the unknown. You could have been a diplomat for the rest of your life and had this amazing life going around the world. You decided you wanted to do something different. And when your career fell apart uh because of COVID, your last career in the tech industry, you had to reinvent yourself again. And I and I'm I'm wondering if part of that reinvention, the courage of it, you know, in in even a little kernel of it, comes from the inspiration from this podcast as well, where we're learning things. And I'm wondering what you've learned from the outside and if you applied it to your, you know, non-industry life.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

I think one of the things I learned, and it was before we started the podcast, is the power of vulnerability and understanding rejection and failure. So when I when I was let go from my company last year, I was I decided I'd write a blog on LinkedIn, which is you know, LinkedIn for non-entertainment people is what Twitter is for you, lot. Um, and uh I was gonna write a blog about I think it was like five things I've learned being laid off during a global pandemic. And I was advised by a number of people not to do that because no one's gonna employ you if they find out that you don't have a job. Um, and I decided actually writing about the sort of what it's like losing your job and trying to reassess your values and you know, I've had careers which define you beyond just it's a job in the way that obviously everyone in the entertainment industry does as well. And I wrote that piece and it was very well viewed and very well received, and I got lots of encouragement for lots of people, and a handful of legitimate job offers. And I think one of the things I learned from it is actually that whole you know, uh self-awareness, rejection, failure, learning from challenges is hugely valuable. So when this whole potential podcast idea came up, I could see the value in doing it. And obviously, we've done it and it's been a real success because it's a unique angle into uh what people are going through rather than just tell me about all these Emmys that you've won. What I find fascinating is, and we had a long conversation about, you know, were you going to tell people about your diagnosis? And it's really interesting again, you had people telling you that you shouldn't do this podcast episode that we're now doing, because if people find out you're sickly, um that might harm you in your career, which is crazy that entertainment is like that. And you know, I think I know we don't really talk about the show that you're on at the moment, but it's interesting because um I know your NCIS Hawaii colleagues are annoyed at you because you haven't invited them on the podcast. Um, but they have treated you incredibly well. Like when you told me about the diagnosis, one of my first questions are presumably you're out of the room then, because it feels like we'd had 25 episodes of people you know being fired for all sorts of reasons. Like being sort of too sick to work feels like a reasonably good reason to fire somebody. But apparently they've been remarkably patient and kind to you, which is I found after all the episodes we'd recorded rare that they would have responded so well. And I think it's ridiculous that you people were telling you not to do this because it might harm your career. And obviously, now you're gonna do it. I'd be amazed if um I mean, I wouldn't hire you because I don't think you're a very good writer, but I don't think anyone's not gonna hire you because you've had cancer. I'd I'd hate to think that the cruel world of Hollywood is that bad.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

I mean, for I mean, first off, Hollywood parts of Hollywood might be, and I had to really factor that in about you know what would be the the the effect of me opening up and talking about getting sick. And the and and then one of the reasons why I I did it, um, A, it felt hypocritical not to. We have this podcast about you know adversity and and I was going through the the hardest adversity of my life. But that wasn't the only reason. The reason was, you know, if it helped even one person out there who is sick and is scared to talk about it or is just feels lonely and is is still trying to have their career, if it if it helps them, it's worth me speaking out. And I was really sort of buoyed by um another writer named Elizabeth Finch, who I haven't even reached out to yet, who I used to work with on Gray's Anatomy, but I don't know very well, who also openly battled cancer as a writer. And she wrote about it, and in fact, an entire episode of Gray's Anatomy was sort of about it. And she was willing to be courageous enough to speak out and say, I have this thing. And although I think she used this line, um, and and if not, forgive me, but it always stuck with me, which is I might be free of cancer, but I'll never be cancer free. And that's true, but that's not a negative, and that's something that I think um uh is hard for people who have never. Had cancer to understand. You've had to readjust your mind so extreme in such a fast time, and you're you've become sort of uh, and you've had to go through this fight for your life. And that's not like it's like, you know, and again, I'm not being dismissive of war because war is super scary and they do all kinds of stuff, but you're in a battle and it's over in five minutes, and people have died, and there's PTSD, and you're still struggling with it years later, and and you're probably stronger and weaker for it. For me, this has been an eight-month journey of facing my own mortality every day, waking up, not feeling well, not knowing where the can't if the cancer has progressed, you know, waiting for phone calls. You know, I used to wait for phone calls from my agents. Am I working? Am I not working? And those were nervous, am I about to pitch? You know, I'm nervous. Now I'm waiting for phone calls where the doctors kind of tell me, am I gonna live or am I gonna die? And that's a whole new level of of of you know, sort of this, this, this adversity for your brain, for your mind, and you become stronger for it. You become stronger for it. I became a stronger, you know, human being. I became a I can take on more responsibility, I feel stronger in my ability to handle things because I had to face myself at my lowest, at my scaredest, at my weakest. And you kind of learn who you are. And those are things I never had to face before. Cancer is a metaphorical bear in the woods, right? And and how you respond to that bear in the woods really lets you know who you are as a human being. And there's nothing wrong with running away from that bear, by the way. Cancer is friggin' scary. A bear is friggin' scary, but you had that encounter, and I know myself better. So I feel like I was willing to talk about it because this process has made me stronger. And to your second part, yeah, my work has been amazing. And by the way, it just uh they have not, there has been no conflict about getting them on the podcast. They would be amazing guests, and I'm gonna get them on one day. It's a little I'm actually a little embarrassed to ask because they're all so successful and good people, and I don't like mixing that this part of my world and that part of my world too much. But I just told one of my bosses the other day, because I'm done, I'm done with treatment. I'm I'm I'm I'm almost I can't say I'm in remission, but I'm basically in remission, and they know that. And I'm healing and I'm getting better and about to travel to Hawaii for work. And I told my boss, and they're like, you know, you I can't believe you know how strong you've been through this whole process. You only missed a handful of days. You were in the room every day, you were you wrote, you know, two scripts, you're writing a third. And I said, you know, again, I I couldn't have done it without your support, the support of the show. You need to have this. I I need it, and every person's different. I needed to have this normalcy. I just did. And if if it if it that went away, if you went away, if the show went away for me, I would have started spiraling, I think. And so I really needed my days to be regimented. I need to know what was coming. So, you know, I think this is my long way of saying, you know, don't be afraid. And Hollywood is afraid of disability. They're afraid of people that are different, they're afraid of all these different things. And I know, and again, I'm still working, I'm still in my room, thank God. But I probably bring 40% more to a room, 100% more to a room, probably. I haven't even fully comprehended the change that I went through during this year than I did before. You're you just have a wider perspective, and you can't explain it until you go through.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

It will be fascinating because obviously, you know, I've known you for I don't know how many a few years, and you've not been working for more than you've been working. And you always tell me that you know when you're not in a room, you're still working, but really you're not, you're just sort of going to Target and playing pickleball. But um, you know, when you're in between jobs, and obviously last year was hard, obviously, after Hawaii 5.0 ended and you were looking for your next thing, obviously you were you were pitching loads of stuff, but obviously lots of things weren't being made. And I think if you'd been diagnosed with this while you were in your in-between work phase, uh it would have been a very different proposition.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

Yeah, I mean, work used to keep me up, or lack of work, you know. The the year after, I'm not gonna lie, you know, the year after Hawaii 5.0 ended, the pandemic started, I sold a feature, and then I had nothing for six months. And I was in Hawaii, and I this was right before I got diagnosed with cancer, right before I got on NCIS. And I'd get up every night at three in the morning, waking up wide awake. How am I gonna support my family? How am I going to am I? Should I quit? Should I move back to Hawaii? I used to be an event promoter, should I just go back to putting on events? But then that's me giving up. I'm not ready to give up. I've worked in this business for 13 years now. Uh uh, and you know, on 300 episodes of TV, by the way. So just as to counter dance, who's always saying I'm never working. But, you know, the time that you knew me, I wasn't, and it was scary. And I um yeah, and and then I got cancer. And I never woke up at three in the morning again because it that didn't matter. And again, I was and and had I not been working though, had I not been working and I had cancer, I don't know. Because there's one thing where I'm fighting for my life for myself, and there's one thing where I'm fighting to feed my family, and it's a different level of anxiety. So, yes, I I, you know, I I don't never want to compare one with the other, but definitely being unemployed is scary. And at least with this diagnosis and with the team behind me, and I'm super privileged to have a great team of people that help me get through this, uh, you know, doctors, uh, I knew exactly every step that I had to take. I knew what was coming next. And I just had to steal my body and my mind for the pain and the sickness and the adversity, and you know, you never know kind of how you're gonna feel the next day. Uh, but it, it, you know, I think 30 years ago, getting cancer is one thing. And I think today it's also another. So I don't want to be dismissive. And there's also many different types of cancer. So, you know, I had one that they felt like they could treat. There are people who get cancers that they feel like they can't treat. But the one thing that I have learned, and and I've talked to and I've done so much reading about other cancer survivors, is you have to set your mind on winning. You cannot even think about the other side of it because you begin to obsess about it and it gets inside of you. And my dad and I, my dad's a doctor, we spent hours and he came and he lived with me talking about the power of your mind. And this is going to, it's a screenwriting writing related thing as well. Because remember, we had um Latoya on and she talked about her vision board, right? Manifesting her own future. And what we learned with my dad as we're doing our research, that there's a 30% placebo effect for any medicine. So if you take, if you're taking experimental cancer medicine and you don't get it and you think you got it, there's still a 30% uh efficacy rate for people who get the placebo. 30%. What's happening there is your brain is healing you. The power of your brain to to heal your body. And we began, we went down a real deep path of meditation, intention work, which is sort of the atheist's way of saying prayer, where you're really kind of focusing on group manifestation of healing. And it feels very new agey and it is very new agey, but there's a lot of evidence that it works. And I do want to point out that we began to do this manifestation work. We began to do meditation, I did meditation work, I did everything because I didn't want to just be getting chemo. I wanted to be a holistic approach. And when I had my second scan, uh, and I think I told you this and I told my room this, I was they were going to be happy if I was 60% cancer free. This was after my second chemo. I had second of six. They were like, you're doing well if you're 60% cancer free. I was almost 99% cancer free at that second. And I could feel it working. I could feel the intention work working. I believed it work. I refuse to believe otherwise. And I think I realized that you can apply this to your career, you can apply this to your writing, that you really have to believe you're going to succeed. Once you start to doubt yourself, your career does fall apart. And I think that that's also been another lesson I've learned. And, you know, and from our guest from my cancer, you know, and I, you know, I, you know, Dan, what do you think? You know, you know, jumping off my cancer for a second, you know, we would talk for five or 10 minutes after every episode. And something that we don't talk about here as much, you know, that we haven't talked about on the podcast as much, is our joint appreciation for the vulnerability of our guests, right? These are hugely successful people that don't need to come on our podcast, and they do. And they talk about failing, rejecting, rejection, all the things they've almost never talked about in Hollywood. What do you think about, you know, what do you think is so appealing to people about having these types of conversations?

SPEAKER_00 31:22

Yeah, well, it's very obvious. I mean, it's it's nice not to be just talking about you and your cancer for a change, you know, it's obsessed with it. Um, the um I think you know, I think our podcast is actually doing rather well. But in the big scheme of things, it's not helping anybody's show. Like nobody's coming on the podcast, and as a result, you know, extra viewers or extra listeners, or they're about to get another job because of us. Um, you know, maybe an interview in the Hollywood Reporter, but not coming on our fledgling podcast. So people are doing it to speak to either a different audience or because we have people like Glenn Mazzara who does lots of mentoring for other people. And I think they see this as part of that. And you know, I don't know the exact breakdown, but I'd say probably 70% of our listeners are what you would call pre-WGA. Maybe 20% are actual successful writers and showrunners. Because it's uh it's interesting that a lot of our guests have listened to the podcast regularly, and there's probably 10% who are actually normal, nor normal people, non-writer people. Like I, you know, I know people who listen, who are contacts of mine, uh, who are you know in other industries who just find the generic rejection, failure, and diversity stuff of interest. So people are coming on, maybe it's a sort of public service to aspiring writers. It's like a, particularly during COVID, it's a chance to speak to groups of people who they might normally speak to at a WGA meeting or they might speak to on a panel. And I know there've been Zoom panels, but it's not quite the same thing. So I think that's part of the reason because I think the episode always quote on this is John Rogers, obviously hugely successful guy. And we talked about Catwoman for what about 80% of the episode, and Transformers, which was a billion-dollar movie for 10%. That will not have helped his career if you know people were listening. But he doesn't care, and he understands that actually without Catwoman, he wouldn't be the person he is now, as it were. Um, so I I think it's it's uh it's probably one part catharsis for them, one part public service and giving back to the writer community, and one part, and this is a bit I found most fascinating, is they're just nice people and they want to help out another writer who's doing something. Um, I'm adjacent to entertainment industry just because I live in LA and I know quite a few people in the business. And these people who've come on the podcast who are remarkably successful and high level are just really nice people. I think of the, you know, we've done 50 episodes now, I would say 35 to 40 of those people I could feel like I would go for a beer with and we'd have a a good chat. Like I could, I'm not saying I'm gonna be friends with them, or they would want to be friends with me, but they're people I could have a beer with easily and they would be nice people. And um, that's a a higher percentage than I think you would find in the upper echelons of another career. Um, and so I think it's just it's just it's a generosity of spirit and and a feeling they're giving back. But yeah, people talking about this stuff has been really interesting. And I think two or three of guests we nearly had in tears at various stages. I think Melissa London Hilfers was not far away at some point during her episode. Um, and actually Jeffrey Lieber uh talking about the post-lost phase and his therapy was brutal, heart-rending stuff. So, yeah, no one needed to do this, but they did. Uh, and you know, the medium of podcasting allows it in a different way, and we are particularly good hosts. Well, one of us is, but I think there is a generosity that's has been amazing from our guests that have allowed us to create something, and some very serious people have been incredibly supportive to allow us to keep doing more of it.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

The the other element that I think why people talk on our podcast outside of therapy is we're storytellers, right? I think these are storytellers. They are they are the old-fashioned rhapsodies. These are the people, we are the people that would be around a fire telling a story if we didn't have TV shows and the mediums that we have. We like to tell stories. And these are stories that we don't get to tell. Someone falling asleep in a pitch, which I was obviously I've told a few times, getting fired off a project, getting, you know, whatever. We don't tell these stories. Nobody wants to hear these stories. We thought when you go to a meeting, you're not talking to the head of HBO or whatever level you're at, this the executive at HBO or STARS or Netflix about all your failures. You're talking about all your successes. So this is the one chance that you get to be real in a town that doesn't always reward people for being real. Yet, even if our rewards aren't tangible, I feel like there's something, and and and and forgive me if I'm wrong, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, Dan, intangible that we're all getting from the everyone who comes on our podcast seems to enjoy the conversation. It doesn't feel like work for anyone. They all enjoy bearing their soul. And that was a surprise to me. I didn't expect that. You know, I there's a lot that I didn't expect, but that was the one, the vulnerability, the people being open to vulnerability was was a big thing that I that I didn't expect. And you know, you know, I definitely learned about failure. I definitely learned about overcoming failure. There's so many lessons that I've picked up. Uh, and even and and and this is a question I'm gonna ask you, Dan. Like we ended up doing really well. We have a you know, we we we we got a listener base, a surprising listener base, right? We were we we're we got bigger than I think we expected to get. But I think we would have continued had we had like 10 people listening. I don't think we ever did it to grow our base, really. I think it was the kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 37:44

I I completely agree. You know, I've got I may have mentioned I have three podcasts, and the other two, the numbers aren't as high, uh, even though one of them's been running for longer. And um, and that's more surprising because obviously, you know, I host those on my own, so you'd think they'd be doing better. But you know, I I'm doing them because I want to keep doing them, and we've had some amazing guests on those, and I get something different from those podcasts, but yeah, we would have done it regardless if people were listening or not. Um, in some ways, it's more respectful to our guests that there are listeners, because it would be a shame if you know if we were asking for 45 minutes of Bill Lawrence's time two weeks after he's won a whole load of Emmys, and the only people listening were your wife and my sister, then it would be a waste of the interview, as it were. So I think I felt emboldened about getting people on, knowing that actually there's real people listening. And we do get a lot of feedback. I mean, obviously, you're obsessed with Twitter, so you get lots on there, but we get, you know, we get feedback in the reviews, and people who listen text us and tell us things that they've heard. So um, no, I I think it's I think it's right. I think I, you know, this is obviously you have a job in entertainment, I have a non-entertainment job and two other podcasts, and I'm in the middle of MBA, we've both got two kids. Like life is busy, and there's sometimes we're about to sit down and record, and you know, it's been a long day. I'm having to sit in my wife's walk-in wardrobe because it's the only part of the house I can record in. So I'm sitting there like surrounded by addresses on the floor, my back's hurting, I'm knackered. Like I what I don't really want to do it. And I, you know, we get some incredible person come on and speak for 45 minutes so openly and so inspiringly, and then I, you know, I come away completely infused, and not because I want to be a writer, but just because these are incredible people who are telling amazing stories of what they went through to achieve something special that is relevant, you know, to everybody in writing and not in writing.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

Yeah, and I and I and I totally agree. And and and now, like, you know, in the last few minutes of the time we have together today, you know, I did want to talk about what's coming next for us. And this is something we're talking about alive. This is Dan and I have not talked about season two. Obviously, you we did season one, we did 50 interviews, and we plan on continuing, right, Dan? We plan on continuing. This is part season one. We we're gonna keep going, correct?

SPEAKER_00 40:12

Yeah, yeah. No, we're gonna we're we're gonna come back to season two. And obviously, you know, I'm absolutely delighted that you're cancer-free, but it does mean that I'm now lumbered with you for another season. Um, but I think I think for next year we'll like it worked well when we it Paul by Paul Bay came on and we interviewed you. I think worked well. Um I think next year we might have a couple of other guest interviewers. I think why not? You know, guest co-hosts. Some might be born out of necessity because of scheduling, but some will just be. I think it's a good chance to vary the voices. I think one thing is assuming the world goes back to normal and you are able to interact with the world in a normal way, and there's no reason to assume that you wouldn't, then I don't know exactly what it looks like, but you know, live tapings, sort of panel discussion type things, and and not you know, to make money, because you know, I I'm gonna resist adverts or commercials, whatever you call them in America, for as long as possible. Um, if in fact this is not meant to be, this will never be our primary form of income. And you know, we've got 400 streaming into the Hollywood Abyss mugs sitting somewhere, but I'm not even that fussed about selling them. I think it's more like I want to do events and we might need to charge a couple of costs, but it's about bringing people together. I think some versions of live events, that sort of thing will come. I think we will probably vary away from. We've done a lot of writers and showrunners, we've had you know a couple of episodes with actors. I think we'll probably do other bits of crew at various stages, may even sneak into a non-entertainment personnel. We talked about like, do we get a sports person on who can talk about rejection and failure probably at the same level of intensity? I don't know, we might disappoint some of our audience, but it might be worth trying. So I think the theme will remain because people want that, but we'll probably try and mix it up in the in the second season.

SPEAKER_01 42:11

I also think, you know, something that I've been working on and something that we've gotten better at, you know, and obviously, as everyone knows, the first episode of this podcast was the first episode of me ever doing a podcast as a host. So I had to go on a journey. But the the questions too, I really want to push harder a little bit. And this is a warning to all of you who are out there who haven't been a guest yet, but might come on, you know, as a guest in the future onto the show. Like, I really want to get at the heart of your vulnerability. I want to get at the heart of your fear. You know, I want to talk about facing those things because we talk about it um in some detail. And I think there's time to sometimes times we can push a little harder and get those answers and get those, because the times where people really are beginning to open up are our best moments in our in our podcast. And so I really want to, you know, this is a shared human experience that we're all going through, which is we all fail. And I think, you know, judging from all the feedback you and I both get, that this really makes people feel better somehow about the world, themselves, and and and everything going on. So I think the the the the harder we push, the oddly, the better the people listening will will feel about their own existence.

SPEAKER_00 43:33

So do you have any, if you could have like, is there one thing you would have done differently this season, or you have any regrets about the first season of our podcast?

SPEAKER_01 43:42

Uh probably, you know, teamed up with a different co host to start, but there that was, you know, there's no changing that now. Um, no, I think I would have um really kind of tried to ask more probing questions. I would have. Know, uh, I think I did get better. And I think it was because of practice, but I I also think because I was going through a huge life experience that left me as a better active listener. And the way that you get um answers out of people is listening to them. And and I think that, you know, had I we had some amazing guests on earlier that I wish we I would have pushed a little harder, I would have listened a little better, and I would have gotten better questions that would have led to better answers. It's not their fault, it's you know, we're we're we're the hosts, we're the guides. So I think in season two, we can expect, I hope, for both of us to push a little deeper and to get our answers, you know, our guests answering a little bit, you know, with a little bit more honesty and rawness. But that said, they already do. I mean, these are we get amazing guests with amazing answers. So this is just, you know, in small degrees, I want to get better and better.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

Yeah, that's a good answer. Uh I guess for me, my only regret is I think I wrote a 30-minute comedy drama pilot and it's still not been picked up yet. And I would have thought after you know, sitting down with showrunners for this many episodes, somebody would have offered me a job of some kind, you know, consultant in the room about diplomacy or something. I think I gave I did give uh the pilot to one of our guests to read, and he still hasn't even given my notes back after a few weeks. So that was a that was a big disappointment, I think.

SPEAKER_01 45:29

Yeah, I I think what you're learning is it's not only who you know, but what's also on the page. So you you know, you you can you can meet these people, but they but the content also needs to be at a really high level on uh on your page. And I think, you know, I part of me really wishes, by the way, that you'd sell your pilot and that you would actually see what it's like on this side of the uh and then I can say, oh, but you haven't you would be up pitching for months and months and and and working 12 hours days to go meet network execs or whatever. And I'll be, oh what, Dan, you're not working. You're just you're just hanging out at Target and playing pickleball. Uh so it'll be really nice to have the tables turned, but uh on what our career is like. No, but I, you know, I am and I'm gonna say this, you know, I'm grateful. Uh, you know, I'm gonna say this once. I'm gonna say this once on the podcast, and I'm I'm never going to say it again. I'm I am grateful for you, Dan. I'm grateful that you started this journey with me, that we're gonna continue this journey. I'm grateful for your friendship. You know, I I you know most likely I'll edit this out before it ever actually hits the podcast uh for people to listen to. But I I am super grateful for our friendship for this podcast. And it it it honestly helped me survive. I really believe that.

SPEAKER_00 46:41

Yeah, well, obviously, I I guess after you say that, I should feel some obligation to say something nice in return. But you know, interestingly, when you got your diagnosis, I remember talking to your wife, and I asked her if I'm allowed to keep being mean to you just to keep some normalcy in your life, and she said I I was. So um I don't feel the need to come back with a sickly American response to that. Um, but you know, like I said, I am I am pleased that you've got through all of this, uh, even if it means that I can't swap co-hosts because I know there's some much better ones out there. But um, no, I'm I am grateful to our definitely to our guests. That it's a you know, I've I've done a hundred episodes of podcasts separate from this one, and you're asking somebody to give up 45 minutes of their time, you know, half of it should have been during a global pandemic, to spend time talking to you, which uh is for the benefit of your smallish number of listeners and for you not to help them. And it's a you know, I've been on some people's podcasts, and you in some ways you're always doing the host, unless it's you're going on Joe Rogan's podcast, which I wouldn't want to do for other reasons. You know, it's really you're helping the podcast hosts rather than yourself, and given how busy all of these people are. I mean, Bill Lawrence came on our show, having moved it about three times in the evening because he's in two rooms, and he still came on, even though he was tired and did it. Other people were in between shoots and in between rooms, calling from other countries, like it's an effort, and we appreciate people making that effort. So thank you. Thank you, listeners, thank you, guests.

SPEAKER_01 48:20

Right. The last people I want to thank are our listeners, the support, the social media, the tech, the DMs, the reviews, like the amount of weeks that we receive stuff from you guys is is was so fulfilling. And you didn't know what I was going through. So just getting your messages of support about the podcast was super helpful, and and we're grateful for you. And I think, you know, so that said, we are going to take a five to six week break until the first week of January, where we're going to start to give you guys new episodes again in season two. Until then, have a great happy holidays and Thanksgiving. And uh, we will uh talk to you guys soon.