Take 123 - Showrunner, writer Emily Fox, Hindsight, Watchful Eye, Zoey's Extraordinary Playlist

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for shore, dozens of unproduced scripts littering the law.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in all about every single day.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Scriptation allows you to digitally mark up scripts, separate notes into layers, track changes across revisions, and so much more. Insert Noah saying something nice about scriptation.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

Dan, I I think this is where they actually want me to talk about how much I love it. And I do love it, it's great. Its colletting function transformed me from the messiest writer in Hollywood to, well, ever so slightly less messy. My wife might have other things to say about that. Sitha listeners can get a free month of scriptation by going to scriptation.com backslash Sitha.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

For those of you who don't understand slightly drawly American accents, that's scriptation.com backslash S-I-T-H A. Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. I am Dan Rutstein, your non-entertainment co-host. Noah, I think, is in trouble with his showrunner, so he can't join us. So we're going to go straight on to the guest introduction, which I'm going to read and try and make mistakes in it, like Noah often does. For this week's podcast, I am thrilled to introduce TV writer and show creator Emily Fox. Emily has worked on such shows as Ghost Whisperer Hindsight, which she also created, a series of unfortunate events, Girlfriend's Guide to Divorce, Daybreak, Zoe's Extraordinary Playlist, The Watchful Eye, and many others. Welcome to the show, Emily. Thank you so much for having me. Excellent. Right. So let's get straight into this. I normally ask just a rejection question to start with, but actually, in the way I sometimes do, if there's a particular show you've worked on that I thought was interesting, I'm just going to ask you about that. And I want to start with um uh Zoe's extraordinary playlist, which was an extraordinary idea for a show. Um obviously I've never been in a writer's room. Uh I'm sure that obviously they're all different depending on the show, but it feels like one where you're using music to express emotion must be a of quite a fun room to be in.

SPEAKER_03 3:25

You know, that was a particularly interesting case because I joined the show for the second season and it was May of 2020. And so this was my first experience in a Zoom writer's room. And it remained on Zoom the entire time. And uh, I think only our showrunner and creator Austin Winsburg and one other writer were able to go to the set, which was in Vancouver, because at the time the restrictions on movement were such that you had to go to Vancouver and then stay like in a quarantine in your like hotel room, not even so much as a walk around the block for two weeks. So the writer's room was entirely virtual, and that was sort of like under these like emergency circumstances where it was like that was the only option we had. It wasn't like we're gonna opt in for this. So uh it was an unusual situation in during an extraordinary time. And I will say, like, I loved that writer's room because it was like my link to the outside, and it was also, you know, so much of what we did on that show was listening to music and trying to either, as I um was describing earlier, the um the way you kind of built the show was you would come up with the scene and then try to find a song that would fit, or you would light upon a song and then try to build the scene around it. So, and and both of those were sort of operative in the way we were were constructing that show. So we just listened to a lot of music in the room, which was fun because someone would just say, like, oh, can we listen to you know Drift Away by Dobie Gray? And we would just listen to the song, and all of us would just be sitting there on Zoom, like spacing out or doodling or whatever, but listening to the music. And it was like every so often we'd have to have a dance party because like you just there's certain songs you have to dance to, it's the law. And like it was just like very freeing in a moment of time that felt otherwise like very dark and very um forbidding, and being outside felt dangerous, be being inside this like perfectly safe little bubble listening to music together and sort of experiencing that together, was like I hesitate to say it was spiritual because that sounds really corny, but it was spiritual, and it was it was it was really it was really fun.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

That's a fascinating answer, lots of levels. I because obviously writing rooms, depending on whether I think your showrunner has kids or not, and therefore whether they go late, um, I imagine that they're very given that you're often under pressure, um, they are the sort of rooms where I guess there's sort of there's a lot of emotion. Obviously, you're writing about emotion, but presumably people are bringing things into these meetings. In what is a sort of a whether there's a pandemic going on or not, is a is a writer's room a sort of if it's done properly, is it a sort of community sanctuary where everyone feels like they can bear their own souls? And I guess the opposite of that when it's not a great room, is it just a horrible, vicious place to be vulnerable?

SPEAKER_03 6:28

I mean, yeah, I think it's I think both of those, those are sort of the two poles that exist at either end. Um, and there's a lot in the middle in between where you can, you know, and rooms are sort of living, breathing organisms in the sense that like you've got a bunch of people together every day, but you know, people have their own, you know, internal like, you know, biorhythms and clocks and moods, and you know, days where they're very stressed about something entirely unrelated to the room, but like, you know, or they're stressed about something that's completely related to the room. And, you know, I have been, you know, the last, I guess, uh two jobs I've had have all have been all virtual rooms. So it's only on Zoom. And that has its advantages and disadvantages. Um, one thing that I think is a huge advantage is that people can kind of live their lives. You know, oh, someone's at the door. I gotta go pick up my kid from school because they're sick. I have to, I'm something's I gotta deliver this thing to this person. I'll be back in 20 minutes. And it's like you sort of have this like flexibility where you can just go boop and you sign, you turn off your video, and you're not missed in the same way that you are if you physically walk out of a room. And you know, I have children, I have a husband, I have like a I I also like sort of conk out at about 5 p.m. I I glaze over and I can't think anymore. So I'm kind of I'm not a stay late in the room person. Um, I always think it's so much better to come back tomorrow morning with fresh eyes. Um, and I do think like in its in its best, most optimal form, the writer's room is a place where you can feel really safe to open up about things that are going on in your life or the a story that comes to your mind, or you know, you can wander off topic and not feel like someone's gonna be like, what are you even talking about? It's like, I don't know, just let them go. It's this is the process. It's like, yes, I would love to wander around in the halls of your memory with you for a while, like looking for an interesting story or considering some memory, or like tell me about your ish problems with your mother, whatever it is, like ideas and and and like plot twists and stuff like that, it can come from anywhere. So I think I think the key to running a good room is to make everybody feel comfortable. That is a tall order. And as I said, like people change. So, like two people that might feel comfortable one day might clash the next day. And as a showrunner, you're like, okay, I have to come in here and be the ambassador and try and make peace between these two people who really had like maybe a profound disagreement, or one of them was picking on the other one, or whatever it was. It's there's um a lot that can happen in the room that is really meaningful and bonding and lovely, and sometimes you know, people can be finicky and people can make remarks or make jokes that don't really land, and it can be awkward, but I mean that's any workplace.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

Yeah, no, it is. So obviously, given the point of this podcast, I have to ask you what is the I guess the worst experience you've had in a room or or the worst room you've been in overall? Yeah, I don't expect you to name that. I mean, you can you can do what you like, but you probably won't. But I'd like to get a like something bad that has happened in a room.

SPEAKER_03 9:57

I have been in a couple of rooms that I felt like got sort of like there was a little bit of an external management decision that kind of came down like a hammer and sort of destroyed everything. And then they were like, well, put it back together. Like it's sometimes when there isn't really like a synergy between the network or streamer that you're working with and what the room is producing, um, it can get really unpleasant. You can break a whole season of television and they're like, we don't like that. And that's not what we want at all. And then, you know, in one instance, uh I was not running that show, but they've they fired the showrunner and then sent in the network executives and a director and a writer, and they re broke the season, and it was the same season. It was just like it they just wanted to do it themselves. And it just felt like that was a it was awkward and sort of uncomfortable. And I was one of two women in the room, and it just it felt like I was put in a position of like being a peacemaker, which happens a lot. Um, I think it's partly being a woman and it's partly my personality that like I'm often cast as a peacemaker or as a voice of reason who can sort of say, like, okay, I see everyone's getting like upset or heated about whatever this is, and let's take a step back or let's take a break or let's let's look at this from kind of 20,000 feet and see what we're doing, and maybe we can fix it if we look at it from a bigger, more objective point of view. And um so that that particular instance was was tricky because there were like a lot of big 800-pound gorillas involved, and everyone thought that they that their way was right. And sure, that's that is great. But that was that was tricky. And then I've had another, you know, my experience on hindsight, which was a show I created on VH1, um they had uh we had made season one and it was like kind of this scrappy little show that could, and then they'd ordered a season two, and we were writing season two, and we'd broken the whole season, and we were we'd outlined the episodes and we'd written a couple of them, and then they got a new head of the network, and he just came in and canceled it. Um before we, you know, it was probably we were probably eight weeks out from shooting. And that was devastating because it was that was sort of in I forget what year it was, probably 20, I want to say 2015, 2016. It was sort of before that became commonplace, before people had like to sort of suffer the indignity of like, I have a series order, I've cast this thing, I'm building my sets, I've maybe even started shooting, and then someone just comes in with an axe and is like, nope, pack it up, we're done. Or you've made it, but we're not airing it. And that feels to me like a little bit like the way all these companies are sort of absorbing the other companies into these like giant like octopi, and the corporate culture is sort of making decisions that feels like this doesn't have anything to do with creative. Like, this is a great show, people loved it. Why are you why are you yanking it off the air? Like, but it's like other like oh because it's taxes or whatever, like yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

I mean, obviously, you there's been some ridiculous examples recently about whole shows not being done, you know, being made and not being released for for tax reasons. Um, but it I want to go back and explore this, particularly because you said this wasn't commonplace. I mean, this is the 123rd episode uh of this podcast, and we've probably heard 30 or 40 times of either a show being cancelled or you know, a pitch being a development being stopped because of a change of exec, head of studio, or whatever it is, in the way that they all want to have created their own things or whatever it is. But let's go let's go back to that moment. So you've you're a show runner, exciting. Run a show, you get told that you're gonna do it again, which is very exciting because that's what you want. Um talk me through the sort of like I don't know if it was a fax or an email or a phone call, but when you found out, and then how you told the whatever it is, 200 people who would have worked for you that this wasn't gonna happen.

SPEAKER_03 14:59

So this was we had we had filmed our first season of hindsight in Atlanta, and our writer's room was in LA, and we filmed the show in Atlanta and had had a really actually really quite a good experience there. Um and but for this season two, we had qualified for the tax credit in California, and our lead actress was expecting a baby and was you know hoping to like stay closer to home and not have to move to Atlanta with an infant. And so a lot of um arrangements had been made to like move all of our sets to the Paramount lot, and we had moved into new offices, and we had, you know, we had kind of gotten all set up in a new home. Um, and as we were working on season two, we were kind of, you know, we had pitched season two before our season one finale had aired. So we knew we were getting another season, so we ended season one on a cliffhanger. And then kind of went right back to work on season two and um had gotten all set up in these new offices and and had had, you know, we were I was, I think I was on the phone with our like EP on the ground in Atlanta talking him through which pieces of the set he should put on a particular truck, like a moving truck, to come out to LA. And it was this, it was like a Wednesday of whatever week this was, and late August, early September. And one of our writers is very close friends with Nick Lachey. And Nick Lachey had at the time like a talk show on VH1, like a daytime talk show. And this guy came in and he said, Nick's show just got canceled. And we knew that we had gotten a new head of the network, and we knew that this guy was coming in and that he was like belt tightening all over the place. And it was unnerving because we had just handed in an outline, and typically the routine was as soon as you handed in an outline or a script or a story area or revisions or whatever, the network would call instantly and set a notes call for whenever two days out or three days out or whenever it was, but the notes call would be on the books right away. Like that was their system. And we hadn't gotten a call from the network to set up notes on this particular. I think it was an outline that we had just turned in. And as soon as he told me they had canceled Nick's show, and I said, they also haven't set this call. That's weird. Like it just felt like all of my like antenna went up and was like something doesn't feel right. And I think I had spoken to my agents that week, and I was like, this doesn't, something's not I don't like it. And like it's just sort of, I guess in current parlance, we would call it a vibe check. I was like, the vibe here feels dusty and strange, and I it's something's something's up. And then on that Friday morning, my agent called and he said, Are you sitting down? And I happened at the time to have been sitting down, so that was convenient. And he said, They're canceling the show. And he said that the head of the network is gonna call you any second, and I just wanted to get to you first. And I was like, Thank you so much. It's like I just hate being caught unaware. That's like one of my bet peeves, is like I just wanna know. Like, if I had like if a boyfriend was gonna break up with me, I wanted a heads up so that I could show up to the breakup, like prepared for it, like emotionally, like with my like invisible helmet on, so that no one could actually crack my skull. Because I'd be like, no, no, no, I'm ready. Oh, you can't you're this is no surprise to me. I already knew this. Like, I almost feel like this sense that like I'm clairvoyant somehow, like I don't know, it protects me. It's I mean, this is obviously deranged now that I hear myself say it. But so when the head of the network did call like seconds later, and I had a I had a co-show runner on that show, John Norris, dear friend, who I loved and we loved working together, and we loved this show so dearly. But when she called, we were both like very blasé, like deliberately and in a calculated way. We wanted to sit, we wanted to make it sound like you can't hurt us. We are we are invulnerable. We already knew. And that was sort of, I don't know why at the time that felt like it was gonna like shield us from like the like bewilderment and like but it's like sort of the same philosophy where it's like if you expect the worst, then you're only gonna be pleasantly surprised in life. And I feel like that's always been sort of my position is like, well, this is probably gonna be terrible. But then if it turns out to be great, like I'll enjoy it more because I anticipated disaster. But what I ended up with was such a delight. Like, rather than anticipating delight and being like, Well, I knew it would be delightful. So, anyway, with then we had to go tell the writers, which was horrifying because I don't know how to like walk into a room and make it sound like something important has happened. So I kind of walked in and sat down and said, they canceled the show, like in the same tone of voice I think you would use to say, like, we're getting Chipotle for lunch. It was just like very like low-key, and because I didn't, I think I didn't want to express how upset and heartbroken I was. And I think at some point in there I had spoken to our non-writing EPs who had said, like, don't worry, we're gonna find another home for it. And I think in my mind, that was another sort of like that also cushioned the blow a little bit because I was like, oh, look, maybe we'll find another home. Maybe it'll be even better than where we are now, even though sort of like in my bones, I was like, I don't know if this is finding another home. Like that just doesn't feel that feels like one of those things that sometimes happens. And because it sometimes happens, people are like, well, it might happen. But I was sort of like, I just didn't. But it was again, it was like another sort of like layer of the shield was like, oh, I'm gonna spend the rest of the day writing like cover letters to send to every other network and streamer in town to say, like, we would love to continue. You to do this show, will you take a look at season one? And we'd love to discuss bringing this to you, Netflix or Amazon or whoever at the time uh who we were trying to get to like adopt our baby. Um and so we told the writers and we said, like, I guess we're done for the day and for maybe forever. And everyone was just gobsmacked, you know. It was just it kind of, even though I feel like I had in retrospect, I was like, the writing was on the wall, but I had I don't think that I had articulated that to anyone. I don't think I had said like, I think our show's getting canceled because Nick's show just got canceled, and that just feels like that was the canary in the coal mine, and now we're like another canary, and like what are now we're in the coal mine. You're not supposed to go into the coal mine if the first canary dies. Anyway, dead canaries everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

So I mean, thank you for going. This is exactly the point of the show. Like, it's easy to say our show is cancelled, but to talk us through the sort of emotions of it is fascinating. Have you been in a room as a not as the showrunner where a showrunner has told you that a show's cancelled or you're being fired sort of at other times? Okay, oh right. Well, let's do uh which do we prefer? Firing or cancellation? Let's start with the it's not your fault and let's make it then the your fault bit well not your fault, but let's go from general to personal. So tell me about the the show being cancelled. And do you think that they cancelled the show to the writers better than you cancelled your show to your writers in terms of telling the story?

SPEAKER_03 23:49

How do you mean?

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Sorry, well, I meant I didn't phrase that properly. What I meant was when you were in a room being told by a show runner the show was cancelled, do you think they handled that better or worse than the way you did it when you did it?

SPEAKER_03 24:02

I think it was a tie.

unknown 24:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

All right, a tie.

SPEAKER_03 24:05

I think it was a dead heat. Because the the show that got cancelled, it the thing that happened to me on hindsight then happened again on daybreak, which was a show for Netflix, which again we had had like such a blast um writing and then making season one, and then they ordered a season two, and then after we had broken the season and had written several scripts, it it was sort of a somewhat similar thing where it was like they canceled it. And you know, that's a it was a bit different because it was at Netflix. So like Netflix actually has numbers that and an algorithm, and like it's we sort of knew the timing, like we knew that we kind of had a month after the premiere of the show where the numbers were gonna have to like reach a certain level in order for the show to sort of like trigger a season two or or trigger moving forward on season two. Um, you know, whereas with hindsight, it was a little more nebulous, and part of it was that they had brought in a new head of the network. I think if there hadn't been a new head of the network, we would have made a season two of hindsight. Um, but with Netflix, I think it was a similar thing where like as soon as it happened, we were like, oh yeah, I think we knew this was gonna happen in our bones. And maybe that's just like maybe that's just a defense mechanism or a coping strategy for like not wanting to feel caught off guard. Um, but that was also like that was a huge bummer because we were so deep into season two at that point to be told, you know, and and Aaron Collite, who was our showrunner, um and created the show, kind of you know, came in and it was sort of a similar thing. It was like, okay, we're done. And now we have to clear out. And that was the thing on hindsight too. They gave us a day. They were like, you have to clear out the offices. And um one thing that we did do, and I don't know if I'll, you know, get hauled in front of the disciplinary board for saying this, but on hindsight, we still had a P card, like a like the one of those debit cards that they give to the PAs to pay for lunch and things like that. And it had they had just reloaded it, so it had like $500 or something on it. And we were like, we're going to Mousseau and Franks. And it was noon, and we're like, we're getting martinis. And the one thing with the P card was you were not supposed to buy alcohol.

SPEAKER_00 26:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:35

And we were like, what are they gonna do? Fire us?

SPEAKER_00 26:38

Yeah, I love that. Also, but for those who live outside LA, they might not fully get this, but somehow a load of now disgruntled writers going to a place where some of the greatest pre-Hollywood and early Hollywood writers would sit around doing whatever they do feels entirely appropriate. And a man in a red waistcoat serving you a martini at lunchtime feels like a nice antidote to being basically losing your job.

SPEAKER_03 27:10

It was very correct. Everything about it felt right on a day when nothing felt right. It was like, well, this is what we're gonna do. And like, you know, your your job in leadership doesn't cease the minute the show gets canceled. It's like you have to like to usher everyone out. It's like you're just the next week is like one big exit interview, and it's like you can't you can't just send them home. Like these are this is your team. Anyway, I mean I we we drank a lot. It was it it was I don't usually I'm not like saying that's like you know, that that was that was a healthy response, but it it definitely made me feel a sense of solidarity with like our little group and our little family. And you know, we felt very you feel very vulnerable. You feel like I I really let myself believe that this was gonna work.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

I mean, I do hope that obviously a lot of writers, showrunners listen to this show. I hope that anyone else listening whose show gets canceled does exactly the same thing. I feel like that's exactly what people should do in these circumstances. So tell me, tell me about the time that you got fired or the times, if there's more than one.

SPEAKER_03 28:27

I oh, I got I've I think I've gotten fired from all of my jobs. I okay, so I wrote on the first season of Ghost Whisperer, which was a very long-running show, and people loved it. And I was kind of brought on to it like right when the pilot had gotten picked up, and I think I had come to it thinking it was gonna be one thing, and then it sort of turned out to be another, and I wasn't really particularly well suited to it as it turned out. Like, you know, my my brand or my sort of style of writing is more like sort of rye, you know, somewhat intellectual romantic comedy with a little bit of horror and supernatural when appropriate. And this, I mean, and that's sort of a little bit what Ghost Whisperer was in its inception, but um so I was on the first season, and there were, you know, we did the first 13, and then we got a pickup for the back nine. And at some point, I think it was in February, um, the guy who had created the show, um, who was sort of the, I mean, he was the showrunner, but he didn't live in LA, so he would sort of like wing in from New York and come in for a couple of days and then would leave. And the guy who had been actually hired to run the show had either quit or gotten fired like a couple months in, and it was a little, uh it was a little diffuse in terms of leadership, but this guy was definitely, I mean, he was the creator of the show. And he had clearly been given like a message from on high that he needed to get rid of me. And which fine, like I was like, this is yes, you should, because this is I'm like, I've showed up to the tennis match with a hockey stick, like I'm in the wrong place. And he brought me into his office and sat me down and was like, I think you know why you're here. And I kind of had to like play along and be like, of course. I mean, I hadn't woken up that morning thinking I'm definitely getting fired off of Ghost Whisper, but anyway, so he said, you know, I'm so sorry to have to do this, but it's you know, we're trying, you know, we're trimming back on their, but whatever it was. It was a it was a very boilerplate, um, but gentle letdown. And then that day it was raining, like raining, raining. And I, this was really, it was probably one of my earliest jobs, and we had these offices at Universal, and the parking lot was like up a hill. So, like, imagine so the parking lot's up here, and our our offices are down at the bottom of this hill, and it's pouring. And I had at some point along the way purchased an Aeron office chair, which was like a big investment because I was like, Well, this is my office now, and I need to have a good chair. And all of my colleagues had decorated their offices to the ninth with like tapestries and little twinkly lights and a zillion pictures and whatever. And I had like, you know, like a pencil case and then one framed picture and this chair. And I had put the chair together with like it needed a screwdriver, it was a whole undertaking. And so I'm so now I'm fired, and it's like two in the afternoon, and I go to the office and I'm like, oh my god, this chair. I'm gonna have to put this chair in my car and get out of here. And like I couldn't the idea, I it's like the the the geometry of the chair was such that there was no way to fit it into this car without like a level of like gymnastic ability that I don't have even in good weather. And so, and I'm like crying. It was it was not beautiful, it was not it was very, I guess I was very emotional, and I was crying because I was embarrassed. I was so humiliated, like it's just it's just the worst feeling. And I had to go get the car, come back down the hill with the car, park in this like fire lane, I'm drenched, and I'm trying to shove this cop, this like stupid chair, which by the way, I'm sitting in right now, into this car. And like at that moment, I made like a solemn vow that I would never bring another item bigger than a pencil cup to any office I ever worked in. Because I'm like, if you can't make a quick getaway, like you're dead. Like, this is I'd rather I'd rather just leave this chair behind. But now I can't because now I'm trying to shove it into this trunk, and I can't like I can't get away fast enough, and I'm like soaked, and like it was just it was it was a low point.

SPEAKER_00 33:42

I was hoping that you were gonna actually put the story, was gonna be you pushing the chair up the slope in the rain in some kind of like sisophilian analogy of Hollywood.

SPEAKER_03 33:56

Um, but we could do that, we could, we could change it. Um, but still Yeah, that's that's very evocative. I love that. Yeah, let's do that instead.

SPEAKER_00 34:06

Um so I I've unfortunately over the years fired lots of people in my jobs. I've been fired once, and um I remember when I was being I'll be interested in your view, given you've been fired more than once. When I was when I was firing people, I remember I was given some very firing people is not easy. I'm sure you fired people as well. It's it's not easy. Um, and I was I was given the worst advice in the world um by somebody, which is um something about, you know, try and make it easy for yourself. Um, don't think about the person, think about like what this is gonna do for your career, and next time you do a job interview, you'll be able to say, you know, I'm comfortable firing people, and that's good for your career in senior positions, which is sort of the worst advice you could ever get. Um, so I never did that, I did the opposite. I was sort of very empathetic with people, I tried to be, at least I think I was. Um and I remember when you fire people, you sort of want them to give you an easy time, and some people sort of did, and some people definitely did not. Um, but when I was fired, I remember I think I let the person off quite a lot. Like I sort of I turned up for a team meeting and there was just the two of us there, so I sort of knew what was gonna happen. He's like, I think you know what this is gonna be. And I I wanted to say, no, no, please tell me what this is. Um, but I didn't, I'm like, yes, you this is probably the end, isn't it? And he's like, no, don't worry, I know I don't blame you. And I sort of I did most of the talking for him and made like so he didn't feel uncomfortable. Um and I look back and I wonder if there was a massive misopportunity there to just give somebody a hard time just for the sake of it, because it doesn't change the outcome. Um where do you did you give everyone who fired you an easy ride, or did you sort of deliberately try and make someone feel bad because they fired you?

SPEAKER_03 36:02

I mean, the only time I was sort of able to like, it's not that I made the person feel bad. Someone fired me who wasn't actually not authorized to fire me. Um, and that was enormously entertaining and satisfying because I could say, like, you know, they called me at home and said, you know, we're not, we're gonna be replacing you on this for this gig. And I at the time was able to say, like, I I hear you. Um, have you, you know, consulted with your creative partners with at the studio and the network about this? Because I'm not sure that they want to fire me. He said, no, I wanted to come to you first, which I think he felt like he was doing me a solid by like giving me a heads up. But in fact, I was like, you know what, I don't work for you. And I am pretty sure I'm locked for series on this project. And if you fire me, which I think you just did, um you're gonna have to pay me. And this is crickets. Because I think he just like hadn't he hadn't like considered the like the domino effect of this, of what he I think he thought was a very like polite and generous heads up. Which it was just like, no, but like you gotta do your due diligence. You can't you actually can't just go around like firing people.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

And did you get paid out or did they keep you?

SPEAKER_03 37:34

Oh, I got paid out. I did. I'm not gonna pretend that that wasn't a very happy outcome. I mean, it was still like it's always it always stings. It always feels awful.

SPEAKER_00 37:52

How many times have you been fired, Emily? Because it sounds like it's a lot.

SPEAKER_03 37:56

I mean, I you know, I count it as being fired if like the show gets canceled.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 38:00

Like I'm we're out of a job, like I got fired because there is no more show. Like Yeah, so I think that feels yeah. I mean, the only I think maybe I think maybe three times I have been told like you're take your Aaron chair and go home. Um, which I guess on the whole is like not that bad. But you know, I think it's it's funny because like we, I and all of my writer friends talk about getting fired all the time because we all get fired. Yeah. And it's like sort of become so it's not unusual, but it's like it doesn't mean the same thing that it does in other industries. Like it just means we're parting ways on this project. Yeah. It doesn't, and I don't ever take it to mean you are not good at your job. I take it to mean this is not a good fit. And like that's fine. Like having been in a leadership position, I also know, like, yeah, sometimes it's just not a good fit. Sometimes these arranged marriages like don't work out. And that's it's totally okay as long as you're humane about it, and as long as you're not like you know, like there's no point in like torturing each other, like if this is not, you know, I feel like I learned that in my 20s, like just out like dating, like we don't have to make this work. Like, it's okay to break up with someone. Like, yeah, you might feel kind of shitty for a couple of days and have to like watch center stage and eat burritos and stay in your pajamas and not and like not get any fresh air, it's fine, but like go through your recovery and then and then move on and and go out and look for the next adventure. So like I do find like my coping strategy, like when I get really like if something gets canceled that I really care about, or like something just doesn't move forward that like I'm invested in. I always joke that I have this like technique that I've developed that's a little loosely based on like in Men in Black, where they can like do the thing with the pen and erase your memory. And that like early on when I sort of started writing pilots like regularly, like every year, and you get pretty invested in your pilot if it gets to the point where you're actually writing the pilot, like you're creating a world and you're creating these characters and you're talking about it all the time with whoever your creative partners are, and you're working on it, you're rewriting it, and it's and then that does doesn't move forward for whatever reason. Like my what I trained my brain to do was to forget that that project had ever existed. And to the point where then people will call me a couple of weeks later and say something about the project, and I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. Like it's I've it's like a very selective, like laser-focused murder.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

Do you actually not know what they're talking about? Or you sort of trick, or you say you say that as part of the facade, or do you are you actually that good at it that you can sort of forget about things?

SPEAKER_03 41:08

I mean, honestly, some of them I have just it's it, I consider it a very highly developed skill.

SPEAKER_00 41:17

Very, very useful skill in today's Hollywood.

SPEAKER_03 41:20

Right? I mean, I don't, I obviously like don't forget, forget. Like, you know, it's there's still a file on my desktop. I can find it. Um, you know, I don't light bonfires, but there is something where it's like, I do feel like there is a like a little light switch in my brain that I can just go turn off. And it's like it just neutralizes that particular pain and that particular disappointment. It's almost like it puts it away until I can look at it again because I can't look at it again in the state of like immediate grief. Like I have to sort of, you know, this is sort of like a lot of people talk about how like not a lot of people, but I've read before that like a healthy person's response to stress is you actually fall asleep. And that like you kind of it's like you're giving your brain a chance to catch up. Like that the that the impact of the grief or disappointment is so um overwhelming that like you just sort of I mean, I'm not saying not every this is not common to all humans. I'm just saying like someone I remember having a discussion with someone once where I had said like I had heard some awful news. Um and I had then like as soon as I hung up the phone, lay down and fell asleep instantly for like four hours in the middle of the day. And this friend had said, like, that's a healthy person's response to stress. It's like your everything just shuts down. It's like when your computer gets overheated and it's like just turn it off and let it sit and don't ask anything of it, and don't try and process it, and don't you don't have to do this. Like you can wait. Like the grief will still be there when you wake up, but you will be rested and you will have had some time to like absorb the impact of it. So I think that's what my brain's doing, like the rejection or the frustration or that sense of like it just feels really destabilizing, where you're like, I thought it was great, I thought you thought it was great, I thought we were gonna do this, and now we're not. And it's kind of sudden, you know, it's like if you're writing a pilot and you're kind of waiting to hear back about it, and like the answer is no. It's just that's just a phone call, and you can always tell. I can tell from the ring. It doesn't even have to be I don't even have to hear someone's voice. I can just tell. I'm like, oh, it's dead. Um, and it's just I don't know it just feels like someone a a good friend once said that like writing pilots is like buying lottery tickets and like each year that you write a pilot like you know the first time you write a pilot you get one lottery ticket and then the next year maybe two and then you know as you gain more experience and maybe work on other shows you know maybe now you have four and like so you're increasing your odds like it might work you might win and like sometimes you're like I have 16 lottery tickets and then when you like realize like none of them have won you're like damn it there were 16 not one single one and then you know that's it's just but I think you have to put it away I think you have to put it on the shelf and and walk away from it or else you'll never do it again.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

Yeah. So um I'm not quite sure how this has happened but we seem to have sort of been talking for what is a normal length of our entire podcast. I feel like I haven't actually asked you any of the questions that I think I was going to ask you but then somehow we've talked about all sorts of absolutely fascinating things in much more depth than we normally do. So I'm rather satisfied that this is going to be an excellent episode of this podcast. And this has been when I started it because I'm obviously not from this world when I started this part of the reason I agreed with Noah to do this is I like podcasting for things that I know about. And I want to do this because I'm fascinated by Hollywood but only as an outsider and I um I just like talking to people about their world and they say we haven't really talked about anything but somehow we've talked about some very very important things and I think I've learned a lot and hopefully our listeners have as well. So this has been great.

SPEAKER_03 45:51

We do have one question still to go which is the standard final question which is um and given the brilliance of your answer so far I'm excited to hear what you say um if you could give a single piece of advice to somebody wanting to enter the industry what would your single piece of advice be I would say the thing that matters the most getting into any business but particularly this one is to have a very strong support system with probably your friends around you that is completely separate and apart from your work that's a safe haven like a place you can go where you don't have to say anything where you can just call that person up or go meet that person and all you have to say is like and they're like I know because like I do feel like this is this this business will like batter you into submission it's it is like a constant cycle of like euphoria and disappointment and euphoria and disappointment and and sometimes the disappointment lasts 15 times as long as the euphoria but I do find and this this sort of didn't really even come to me I think you know probably you know like five or six years ago I think I was like oh wait I think the only thing that matters is is these connections and the people that I love because like I'm never gonna get the thing that I need from this business because this business is designed to like puree your soul and like I'm I'm able to get a lot out of it because I don't have expectations but like I know that there is this like harbor and I can and I that I have that I can go to anytime because like those I put the time into cultivating those relationships and friendships and staying in touch with people and making sure that I'm at arm's length for them and that they're at arm's length for me and that we are able to sort of like shelter together. And that's you know that's mainly that's my personality not everybody is like that but I do think like as long as you have some place to go that feels safe and protected. Like like every like if you people most people if you want to be a writer you you probably know how to write whether you're gonna get a job or come up through the support staff like ladder or you know meet the right you know it's like there's it there's a billion different ways into this job. Like it's not like you can go to like you know if you want to be a doctor you go to medical school. Like that's prescribed and it's so like I'm not saying medical school is easy but I'm saying it's like you know it's like it's this whereas to get into this business it's like well you could do one of three and a half billion different things and maybe one of them will work. So it's like I never you know people are like what should I do? And I'm I'm always like well you should go work for an agent because that's the best way to like learn the business from sort of like sort of soup to nuts. It's like that's how you learn how the whole thing works. But truly like if I'm if I'm giving real advice not just like practical advice um but real advice is like the thing that matters the most is making sure you have like the shelter in the harbor.

SPEAKER_00 49:57

Brilliant. Magnificent answer look um I hope people enjoy listening to this as much as I've enjoyed recording this. So Emily Fox thank you very much indeed for coming on the show. You're very welcome thank you for having me thank you for listening to this episode of Screaming into the Hollywood Abyss brought to you by Scriptation. Thank you as ever to James Launch for the music and thank you to our loyal listeners if there's any showrunners out there who want to hear their fellow showrunners abused uh and ruffled around and put under the microscope so you can hear their stories of rejection failure and adversity please send them all if you're interested in following us on social media no I've lost track I am at an evil on Twitter or X or whatever Elon Musk now calls it and thanks to Elon Musk I'm also at nopson on Hive Blue Sky Redon MySpace French turn shirt