Take 81 - Writer, Showrunner Andy Siara, Palm Springs, The Resort

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career's been littered with jobs that we couldn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for shore, dozens of unproduced, literary.

SPEAKER_03 0:14

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in almost every single day. Screaming into the Hollywood Abyss is brought to you by Script Hill.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

It's awful if you say it. Let's somebody with a more charming accent do this best. Screaming into the Hollywood Abyss is brought to you by Scriptation, the Emmy Award-winning app for anyone that reads scripts. Makes notes, organise them into layers, and save hours of time by automatically transferring those notes into new script revisions. Stiffer listeners can get a free month of Scriptation by going to scriptation.com backslash Stiffer. Now that's how you do it, Noah. Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. I am as ever your non-entertainment co-host, Dan Rotstein.

SPEAKER_03 1:48

And I am your entertainment co-host, Noah Epsling. On today's Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, we're excited to have on screenwriter, TV writer, showrunner, and creator Andy Ciara. Andy worked on Lodge 49 before writing the breakout feature hit Palm Springs. More recently, he wrote on Angeline and both created and was the co-showrunner of the comedy thriller, The Resort on Peacock. Welcome, Andy.

SPEAKER_04 2:11

Hello, uh, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

So although we only use the audio from these and not the video, um, it is worth noting, you know, the glamorous world of Hollywood writing. Your office is your two-year-old daughter's bedroom, and there's an inflatable unicorn behind you. What when you decided to embark on a Kira Entertainment, did you think you'd reach the heady heights of sharing an office with your child?

SPEAKER_04 2:35

Uh I'm I'm I'm very happy to actually, because it keeps me grounded in a way. Because anytime I feel like uh like I don't I don't want to work, I don't want to, I don't want to do anything today. I just want to like watch YouTube videos or movies, then I'm reminded by the unicorn behind me or the the crib that is to my left that is off screen to my left that like, oh, I have to do this because there are there are people that are uh reliant 100% on me uh making money and putting food on the table. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

That's good. So actually, I I want to ask about we sometimes touch on the the subject of of family, um, because uh you know these are jobs that are uncertain, that take you away from home, they're non non-linear careers. Um we're gonna jump around a bit here, but does having a child change the sorts of jobs you want to do and the way you want to do the jobs compared to the sorts of things you were trying to pursue when you didn't?

SPEAKER_04 3:37

Um it didn't really change what I was like, the I mean the types of I guess not the type of stories I was going for, but I'm I think once I uh once I we had our we had our first daughter, um and it was the same, I was actually in the hospital room the day after she was born, and then I got a call from my manager where like uh with my uh where we just got the I just got the offer to be bumped up to staff on Lodge 49 because I started as a showrunner assistant on that show. Then I was bumped up to staff for the second season. So I it was it was one of those weird moments where like I just now uh my my life and outlook on life and perspective was totally shifted by having a kid, and then in that moment, uh got like you know, the the the dream job that I've been I've been trying to get. And uh and then from that point on, I feel like it's just it's more it's to me, it's more about making sure I stay employed. Um and I with regards to like the if the the kind of job I'm going for, or if it if it affects the decision, my decision-making process on like what type of job I would do, it's more about like I need to I want to make sure I'm again putting uh putting food on the table because uh I know how this industry can be uh uh that who knows how long uh uh I will last. And um I I will probably hopefully be alive for uh for a decent amount of time, um, as will my kids. And uh I want to make sure that you know I have a nice, a nice little cushion for for them.

SPEAKER_03 5:10

So that's I you know I'm gonna ask a question about jealousy. And the question about jealousy actually relates to my jealousy because I'm looking at your career and you mentioned that moment which we all love and maybe we can circle back to where you get that call from your reps that you're going from staff, support staff to sh to to on the staff, right, as we're writing staff. And that's an amazing feeling. We talked about that. But like, you know, you've you've just you've gone really high really fast. And is that were you are you sort of an overnight success, or was there 20 years of being a showrunner assistant behind this success that suddenly you went from staff writer to making a hit movie to being a you know going back on staff and then being a creator of a show all in a sort of a short period of time? But has is is that deceiving, or is that the um it's uh I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 5:57

So I after I graduated from college, um, I was in a I was in a indie rock band for a while with my older brother. And so I I graduated in 2008, which was like, you know, not not a good time to graduate and go out and get jobs. But at the same time, I graduated with a degree in sociology, so I was never gonna get a job anyway. Uh and I but it was a good time to be like in a in a little indie rock band that would go and kind of be perpetual openers for for bigger bands and get paid uh not very much money, but I spent a lot of time on the road um doing laps around the country for about five years and then doing kind of like odd jobs back at home. Um and then is when our our band kind of uh my older brother who was in the band, um, we decided to kind of call it a day in 2012, uh just because we like I don't know, we kind of felt like felt like we we we had our run, and then we both went back to grad school at that point. Um and I went to AFI for screenwriting then. And that was actually when I first started writing scripts, was like just just before I went to um right like right when I went to AFI, uh, and that was in 2020, 20 2013. And um but I had, you know, so so I I was never really going after this job before then, uh this this career path before then. However, from like from 1993, June, June of 1993 on, I kind of always knew that I wanted to do it. Um that was when Jurassic Park came out, and I was like, I'm just gonna this is this is what I need to do. So I would make little short films and write short stories and stuff, but I again never was actually like pursuing it um until until then. And then it was graduating in 2015, and um I had I was lucky enough to like one of my best buddies that I met at AFI was a director, and we both wanted to make our first movie together. So we're like, let's let's do something that let's go make something together. And that's we made Tom Spring together. And it was during that, like I was while I was writing that and kind of developing it with him for from 2015 to 2018. Um I I was also like a writer's PA and a uh for on an early mini room for Lodge 49 and then a shortrunner assistant on Lodge 49. And like those two paths were like like very independent of each other. But I was and over those three years, I was like chipping away at Palm Springs this the script and also writing other little TV things here and there. Um but like uh it just happened to like all kind of come together honestly in 2018, where like I had done my I'd spent three years on Lodge 49 up to that point, but the sh the show had just come out then, and then we're they're staffing the second season, so the showrunner brought me bought me up while uh I and it was that summer that like I paired up where we teamed up with Andy Sandberg and his and and Lonely Island guys and uh and took the movie out to be financed. Um and I was you know, I guess hitting the uh it was a it was a shorter period of grinding it out for sure. Um uh but I but I I was from the moment I like kind of started AFI up until like then I was I I never like I was never lazy about it, I guess. Um I when I was always like just you know hitting the ground running on on both TV and feature side, just like throwing everything against the wall to see until I saw what stuck stuck. And then once once Pond Springs came out, I kind of like I didn't really want to go back and do any of the old scripts that I had been like that were kind of the stepping stones to get there. Um I I felt like I finally like it took me that time to kind of understand where I where I am the most happy and creatively happy and satisfied. Uh I don't know if that I don't know if that answers the question.

SPEAKER_03 9:46

It does. And and you brought up this the script for Palm Springs. And I actually, you know, I might have asked this in the pre or post interview in Normal Times, but I've been fascinated by this movie for a while because it sort of it broke through a genre that already had a really iconic movie in the genre. Groundhog Day is a very famous time loop movie. And if you try to pitch a time loop movie that was a comedy, they would say, Well, what about Groundhog Day? That movie already exists. And for some stupid reason in this town, even though they often want things that feel like other movies, if it's too close to another movie, it's also a reason for them to pass. So I've been wondering about the journey of ponsorings for a long time, because I didn't have you all ask these questions. Is and and it kind of segues into another kind of point I was talking about with somebody else recently. The idea that having a magic script will really help your career, a script that sort of breaks open doors. And until you have that script, you're going to be up against the wall a lot. But once you have this one script that people are really responding to, the doors that you didn't even realize were closed to you before start to open up. Did that happen with Palm Springs? Because it really had to break through a lot of things, not only get made, but get made with the cast it did. And then it had a huge, you know, people loved it. It came out at the right time in the pandemic and it was enjoyable. I loved it. I thought it was great. Did that really kickstart your career for you, or was it a combination? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:02

No, that was absolutely was that. Uh there was another another writer that um uh that uh I always get weird about no one name names or anything like that, but it was a a band that we used to tour with a lot. It was like his old college roommate. Um, and he uh uh he's he he has he hooked me up with him, connected me with him, and um I hopped on the phone with this guy, and this guy's gone on to like write some of the biggest movies. Uh and he's what he said to me, this is like right when I was like finishing up at AFI, he said that like, yeah, you know, people like I talk to a lot of people that are like, you know, finishing up film school or trying to break in, or and it's like uh a lot of people try to game the system, but it's really like it really just takes one script. It really just takes like the and he said, like just rest assured the writing will rise above uh like the or yeah, the I think the writing will rise a good script will rise above the rest. Like the to make sure like you have a good script with good writing, and you know, the rest like things will start to fall into place. And um and all that did really to me was just like, I mean, I think it was true, but uh, but he it just made me focus on like I want I want I need to like have something that is like that I can completely get behind. And then I'm not doing for like as an assignment or I don't have like one toe in the water there. It's it's that I like I I believe fully uh on every single level. And then so and I remember when I like I finished the draft that like most closely became what the movie ended up being, like about before when it was just me and then Max, the director on uh that was like about two and a half years after I started writing it. That's when uh I had a couple friends in the industry that I like I met through, like interning and all that kind of stuff. That like they I said I'm gonna I need them. I have the script that I love and uh I Max and I want to make, and um, but I I feel like I need a manager more than anything right now. And uh they all like independently sent it to the same the same manager um who I met and we hit it off right away. And like what he said to me was like I I basically I know what to do with this script. And it was I noticed from that single that single point on, um uh at the end of 2017, like that's when everything changed for the movie, because here's a person who could actually like take it out and like and it and it made it, you know, was read everywhere, and then you know, months later we're meeting with Sandberg and then going through it with him. Um and so yeah, so I think that that one script did completely change, uh, change everything. And then to kind of like the to answer your kind of kind of other question about uh the the time loop concept of it all, is that uh it's something I've been actually thinking about recently, is that the movie never had a any kind of like sci-fi element or time loop or anything there in the earlier days of it. And it's when it's a number it was the week after we Max and I finished at AFI, we were like, let's uh let's do our first movie, let's let's go out to Palm Springs and let's let's figure out what we're gonna do. Um we had nothing, nothing really at that point. And then out of that weekend, we just had like the idea for a character, like taking a character who who thinks life is meaningless, and then by the end of the movie, he finds some kind of meaning in it. Or another way to phrase it is he starts off by uh he he claims to care about nothing. By the end, he finds like a purpose in caring. And then over the then I started we, you know, over many conversations and and like failed drafts, like I realized that why these, like why I was the drafts were failing was just because like a character who starts out that way, uh, I just didn't like him because he'd sound like a cynical LA hipster. And I was like, I I just don't believe that like this outlook on life that you've that we've we've given to you, it didn't it it didn't need to be that way, uh or because of the the environment that you grew up in. So therefore, I we realized like let's make the the world demand that kind of outlook on life, that kind of like uh hit his point of view, which is that life is meaningless, like and he truly cares about nothing, which is that's where the time loop stuff came in, like way like I you know, again, after many failed drafts, a year and a half after working on it, and it wasn't it was like when we realized that that that would actually like make the the character believable in a way, um, and the story arc that we were trying to put him on believable. Um, that's when everything just like that draft came out so much quicker, and and that's what the movie ended up becoming. Um but yeah, but I but the when we then whenever like throughout that those two and a half years of of working on it, whenever we'd mention it to anybody, like that we'd have you know generals with or whatever, like we'd get the same reaction that of like, yeah, we don't need a we don't like to do a time loop movie. Or like like because any because the concept, like even in the in the log line, I'm sure that my manager, when like sending it out, like had to like probably like you know, say it's not just a time loop movie or whatever, like uh, because it's it's like baked into the baked into the the story arc of the whole thing. Um so I don't know. That's all I I don't feel like I could have ever just gone out and pitched Palm Springs basically. It's it's never a movie that I that would could ever have done uh gone that path, um, because I wouldn't really know how to pitch it in a way. And that's also why like this the script took two and a half years to three years to write, basically, and um another couple years to make. Um, but yeah, again, it changed the script, it changed everything for me, and then the movie coming out changed everything for sure.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

So uh in the way your industry particularly works, there obviously there are scripts that you have written that nobody was interested in over the last few years. But now you're the Palm Springs guy. Are you now wheeling out you know those same scripts that no one cared about and suddenly they see something in them because you know you're hot?

SPEAKER_04 16:56

And um, there is there was a one specific script that like uh I had um that I was developing with uh for a while with another director after uh in the years while I was writing AFI, but I had I this is something I had actually written in film school. Um and it was like a two million dollar feature, and like some producers came on, and like always like one of those you're just trying to like get the money for, and then um we'd all we'd be close on it and then fall apart, and just it's it's a it's a very familiar tale for like an indie film. Um but my heart was always in Palm, my Palm Springs at the time and writing it, but then like this other one I still would like, I was still would I put a lot into it too. Um, and then once Palm Springs, it was it was when Palm Springs came out at Sundance and uh and you know, whatever uh was was news then, um it was like in the couple weeks that followed that that some of these, some some of the producers did come and um say that we can actually probably get the money for the movie now pretty easily. Um and I it was a it was a weird point in or in my life where I was like, I don't actually want to make this anymore. Um, because I feel like I didn't know why the movie needed to be made in a way. It was and it's uh uh maybe and I'll and I'll I'll uh again when I'm looking for when I'm looking for work in a couple of years, uh I I'll be like, oh let's let's make this thing for sure because I need a I need a paycheck. But uh at the time I was like, I felt like all these things that I had written up to Palm Springs were all like they're they're not useless because they all helped me like kind of hone in and and and and work those muscles and uh and creative muscles. Uh but I I I I think I feel like finally I it uh in I think the script for Palm Springs helped me focus in on what I where my strengths and weaknesses are. And then I start I looked at that other script and it's like it is I I I I just felt like I was a different person when I wrote that. It was a different like and I didn't want to go back and start like just digging up old scripts really either. I think that that that made me realize I didn't want to go up, like dig up these old scripts to like try to make now. I'd rather just like move forward and and only focus on things that I do from like this point on, which again, that might be really stupid, but there was a line in in the in Soprano six season where uh uh Tony says, remember when is the lowest form of conversation. And I uh that line has been like burned into my brain. And and since then I've had like this issue with like uh and I think I think I'm wrong about this too. I think I've I don't think I'm telling it's the right way to look at life, but I've had a problem with like looking back. I'm trying to always look forward because I feel like uh the looking back part is uh you just I mean, I made a whole that's the entire show is of the resort is all about looking back and how you can get trapped in a spiral and you don't actually ever move forward if you're too obsessed with the past. So anyway, I don't think I'm right about that, but that's kind of where the uh I guess like the the thinking behind not going back to these old scripts um comes from is that I I'm not that person anymore. So I don't know why I don't I don't know what those are uh what those are those old scripts are speaking to anymore, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

So it's interesting the sort of the moving forward part. So you've mentioned a couple of times, half jokingly, or maybe more than half jokingly, about sort of you know at what point you might be out of work again. And obviously the nature of your industry is that you're often out of work at the end of something, and then you never quite know when you're gonna start working again. But I'm I'm interested in sort of how long things have got value for. So you were the Palm Springs guy, and obviously that led to the resort. So you're now the resort guy. But at what point do you think that will wear off?

SPEAKER_04 20:40

I don't know. I mean, well we'll we'll see if anyone finds finds the resort. It's uh it's still, you know, I I don't know if I don't know if many people have seen seen the resort yet. So I think the Palm Springs thing at the moment is still uh uh helping, but I I now you're just speaking directly to my fears in life. So I don't know. Yeah, you tell me what uh how how long these things uh you you get that uh you get that that calling card that is a uh that has value on it. Uh how long that lasts for, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

So actually I I mean unfortunately speaking to people's fears is exactly the point of this podcast. So I'm now gonna have to ask a follow-up question, which of course is um how much do you actually worry about what comes, you know, you finish a job. Do you genuinely think this might I'll never work again? Like how much do you okay, right, you do.

SPEAKER_04 21:32

I mean it's it's it's uh it's it's absolutely terrifying. Um I uh I was I was actually listening to like a script notes uh episode recently um where Craig Mason is talking about like working on um like having like the uh kind of the the the the daily uh work while in production on a show. And I think for the I think he was talking about The Last of Us, and like where you kind of just you have like a per Daily purpose in a way, because you have like something to do every day. And I think that like I realized when he was saying that I just finished, you know, working, finished post on the resort. And over the past year, it was nice to have like, I knew over the next year, like I'm in the writer's room every day with these hours, and I'm on thinking about the show in my sleep. And then especially while you're in production, it's like you get those, you you get the call sheets and you have a place to be every day. And then in post, uh, we got a very intense post schedule on the resort. And um, and once and I I started started feeling it as we were like we're del we're down to just like you know, doing the sound mix on episode seven or episode eight of the resort. And Alison, the my co-showrunner and I were like, like, we don't we don't really actually need to go into the office today. And we started feeling the sense of like, oh god, this is this might be it. This is like this is uh this might be the last time we ever get uh we ever have an office. Last time we might ever go to the universal uh mix stage to mix an episode. Well uh I I am always thinking that this is going to be the last time I'm ever uh allowed to do anything. Um, and especially right now and like at the end of the year, it's a really depressing time at the end of each uh each year when the industry kind of stops working, basically for some reason. It's like the Halloween happens and then it's like, oh, there's just too many holidays. Let's just stop, let's just stop working. Let's uh and which is really a very stressful thing for like especially when we're you're starting out and like you're like waiting on you know uh execs or a studio or a or a production, I mean like to be reading a script that you send in, or um, and it everything just slows down so much in November, December, or January. Um, and I feel like now that that's timed out right around now when the the resort has ended, and we're waiting to see like what happens if we get another season. And there are these other, you know, other other jobs I'm kind of waiting on. But I'm in my mind, I'm like, wow, this might be the last good year, uh 2022. And then it's really just all downhill, and then I don't know what to do, uh, because I have two kids and and uh a wonderful wife, and I maybe we maybe we move somewhere that's a lot cheaper. Um maybe we uh and I get out of LA and just I start going down that spiral. Um because I uh I yeah, it's uh I don't I I I feel like I I feel like I get obsessed with like uh other like stories of other people in the industry and like at what point do you uh do you fizzle out?

SPEAKER_03 24:27

And um so I don't know. I'm really glad you brought up something that I I've talked about a couple of times. I don't think on this podcast though, about the fact that no script is wasted, that you when you work on something, that it's working a muscle, and it's like you know, people you never if you're a musician and you're playing for Carnegie Hall, you're never begrudging the time that you're practicing the piano or the violin or whatever, right? In our industry, when you write something, you've written it and it's there, and people are like, Well, I need to sell it, or and so and I'm like, no, you could actually just burn it because you've learned something, right? I mean, yeah, not every script is gonna get you to that point of that sale. Uh, but I do want to stay on the subject that's kind of fascinating to me uh about fears, the fears that writers have. And what is a fear that you have uh both for your career and a fear that you have for the industry uh in general right now?

SPEAKER_04 25:15

Fear, well, I mean, I mean, career is just yeah, that I mean that this I was I was lucky enough. Uh I'm very lucky that Palm Springs was made and that uh that that the my my first you know movie outside of film school that I wrote was was made and actually had a had a little bit of an impact and as helped open the door to other jobs. And um, and then it was right after Palm Springs, um, where you know my reps were asking, like, so what do you want to do next? And like uh I said, I mean, if I could do anything, I just want to do the resort. Because at that point, the resort was like being like we had our big the big Bible was written for the resort and the pilot was written, and I knew I wanted to, that's what I would like my heart was set on that. Uh and so I was and so I'm lucky enough to have like these two things that are very personal and important to me in the resort and Palm Springs be made. And uh so career-wise, I just uh I I worry about uh because I was again very, very lucky to have that happen, that uh that anything else is going to when when I when I have more things that aren't made, which that's already happened, like when I have more things that like kind of just you know end up on in some uh uh on some server at uh in a in a trash bin. Um I that I that I'll I'll dwell on that too much. Um and I will or that I will start like turning things down that I should just like actually do because it's like it's that's how you actually make a career in this. You you are you're gonna you're gonna work on things that are that don't ever get made. Um and I I worry about getting too uh I worry about the decisions that that I that I could potentially make coming up, uh if that makes sense. Uh um all that all that I guess the core of that is really just about not working. Um that I uh I've I've it's been a nice two years and I I worry that that is a that it'll I'll never be able to be on a set again as a showrunner or never have another movie made. Um the and whether those are realistic fears or not, I I think that they are like uh, you know, that's that's the that is the worry that um this this was the last thing I'll have ever written but will get made the resort.

SPEAKER_03 27:40

I I I have a showrunner specific question, kind of kind of focusing in on your career itself. The uh you you kind of you kind of remind me of the the rise of Mickey Fisher, who came on our podcast in the early days of our podcast and he did extend it. He came on and he was not the showrunner of that, and he but he he uh he kind of chose to go back to staff for a second because he was worried that he didn't know enough to be the showrunner. And then slowly, I think on his third project that he was lucky enough to sell, he became the showrunner of that uh show. And he writes a weekly pod uh weekly newsletter about his fears and stuff. Do you think there was a learning curve to becoming a showrunner now that you've been a showrunner? Do you think there's things that you can do better next time you are a showrunner, or you know, God willing, your the resort continues and you you continue being the co I think you're the co-showrunner of Yeah, yeah, and and that and that one was really like uh that came about because um it wasn't like mandated on me to like have a co-showrunner.

SPEAKER_04 28:38

It was that I I was uh in the writer's room for Angeline a year earlier, um, or two years earlier in summer of 2019, I was in the writer's room for Angeline, this uh this Peacock show um starring Emmy Rossam and it was with Sam S. Mail's company producing it too. And then uh toward the end of that room, they uh another showrunner was brought in. Um and they asked uh Emmy, the star, Lucy, the director, and then Alison Miller, the showrunner that was on an overall deal at UCP, was brought in uh to kind of like carry it through production. And they all asked me if I wanted to stay on and continue uh working on the show um to kind of like help like in the writing and rewriting uh of it all. And I said, Yeah, because I like I really liked working with all of them. And um and I gotta be like uh and but throughout that process, like Allison was the showrunner on that. And uh and she it's one of the couple things she said to me is like, yeah, showrunning is like it's really like a two-person job that like uh uh it's but everyone tries to do it themselves. And we she and I just became good buds more than anything throughout that whole process. And I said that, like, yeah, here's another show I'm doing with UCP. If uh if I end up selling it to any network uh or streamer, you want to come on come and do with me? And she's like, Yeah, of course, because like again, we're friends, and it's it's better to run a show with two people than it is uh with one. And then uh whatever, a year later, and I sold it to we uh Peacock gave it to the series order, and then I called up Allison and I said, Yeah, do you want to come and do with me? Um because it's uh you know, we've we both we both like our families a lot too, and we uh just know how hard the job is. And uh, but I also I I continued to learn things from her throughout that whole thing. Um but uh but then for like after running the show, and thing is like Allison was pulled into Angeline because Angeline went back into production um because the pandemic kind of paused it a bit. So like she was being pulled into that world a lot. And uh, and there are a lot of things that I like I I learned throughout this this past year uh running and co-running the show that I like I feel like especially when you finish when you finish film school, you're like everyone, everyone finishes and they think that they can do anything. Like you you're you have like here's my my my two pilots that I can go run create and run this show. Um and then especially when you're like in a writer's room, as you you probably know, like you were yeah, I think you're always kind of thinking of like how you would run a show, or how you would run a room too. Like you kind of like romantic almost like romanticize the idea. Um, and so I had spent uh those first three years, like as a first as a writer's PA and then as a showrunner assistant. And then I was a showrunner assistant for two years on on Lodge 49. It was like a just a very long, like multiple writer room process for that one, and then the room never overlapped with production. But the showrunner, Peter Ocko, like you know, I was I was by a side and he was very open about the whole process to me. So I was like learning a ton through that, because you know, like being like right next to the gatekeeper, right next to the decision maker on that. And then for Angeline, same thing. Like I was right next to Allison um while like throughout the writing and production of that show. And I feel like I so I had good six years of uh of experience. And after running the resort, I felt like I could have used another five or six years before actually being like knowing, knowing, like being confident enough in what I was doing. Um, because I think that uh and I see I mean I I I see I've had been on a handful of uh a few other staffs in that in that time, but I still think that there was a lot that uh I could have learned. Um, or and I and I have noticed and there's been plenty of articles written about this too in the past you know couple years where these these mini rooms, these short orders, uh you can have you can have people who are traditionally like uh are co-ep level writers or producer levels uh who have still never been on a set before. Um, and that's uh that's tough. Uh and I and I and then you're being handed, you're being brought on to run a show, but like the running a show is a whole other like I I know I could not as I was in, I could not have done it without Allison or without um Dana, who is our she's our another co-EP, but line producer, and it's uh I feel like that job is almost like had to carry some of the weight of um you know younger creators not really totally knowing what they're doing.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

So um yeah. We've talked on the show a lot about that very point, which is like showrunning's a weird skill set that they give people this job, even though they might not have any of the skills for it, but they've you know written a good script. Um and it's it's more than just a single job, and it's a very hard thing to get your head around. Given that you know you spent a few years seeing other people do it, now you are doing it. What elements of the job do you think that you are good at? And what elements of the job do you think you struggle with?

SPEAKER_04 33:55

Um I I I almost feel like I'm I'm I can be good at all of them if like if they're separated out with like rather than condensed into a a one-year like room writing room, writing the show, prep production, and editing like in this very condensed time frame. Uh but because everything's overlapped in a way, that's where that's where it becomes the biggest struggle. Um like, but I I think that like, I mean, the writing is is the part that I'm I I enjoy the collaborative nature of uh of a room and like just coming up with the with fun, cool ideas and problems and how to solve these problems and all that. And I I like I love that process. I love then taking that and just trying to distill it into a script to get an idea across. Um, and I uh I do and I enjoy and I think I'm good at like being there on set to like help uh we had a very like a very and I credit also credit our directors on this too, keeping it a very like um playful set in a way. Like I'm I because we're not always doing the like the 20th or or 50th draft of the script because of just having to do all these like uh like rebreaking and everything, where sometimes we're we're shooting the third draft of the script. And so uh it was a very like improv friendly atmosphere on our on our show too. And to be a part of that, like working closely with writers and directors, I think that is uh that is a something I I I feel like I'm at least pretty good at is um and I think I credit grad school with that. I credit working with closely with Max on Palm Springs and Andy and Sandberg on Proms Palm Springs, is that I I and with Emmy and Allison and Lucy on Angeline, it's like where I'm probably the strongest and the like most creatively fulfilled is when I'm like in a room with like two or three or four other people that are not always writers, but are some like are are part of the the project on a different level, whether it's uh a producer or an actor or director. And I think that I know how to like kind of fulfill fulfill that role there um and then take it to the finish line as as a showrunner. The the hardest part um that I still like uh that I I need I need to get better at is just the um where I where I know I know that the uh and try and distill one one of the things that came down, uh one of the story problems that happened on on the resort early on was um I had written this very dense, long Bible for the show uh at the end, like back in 2019, 2020. And that's that's what you know, that's what sold the show. Um and I didn't actually share it with the writer's room. Uh uh, but it had like, and and if you if you've seen the show, but like it's the show takes some wild turns throughout the whole thing and um and ends up in a far different place than it than it began. Uh and in the and throughout the writer's room, like I I love our writers' room and like it's uh wanted to have a very just I want everyone to feel like an ownership over the show. And uh there was a I remember I started going back and forth to Puerto Rico for um uh for like scouts and whatnot. And and then we're also like we're just deep, we're like into prep, like in the middle of last summer. And then uh I remember in the there was a there was an idea that was pitched in the writers room um that I needed, I just needed a little time, I needed like a day to think on that I had they pitched it to me like the night before while I was in my hotel in Puerto Rico. Uh and then the next day as I'm running through the airport, um, I call into the Zoom room, the Zoom writers room, and I say, Okay, I thought about it for a day, like let's let's do this. And it was like this idea was like it's kind of a foundational idea. It seemed like it's something that seems small, like in a in dealing with backstory, but it actually changes the course of the whole show in a way on a like on a deep, deeper, like fundamental foundational level. But I had thought about it for a day, and while I was, you know, in a van, uh rewriting other episodes and um and watching director reels and uh looking at casting videos and looking at locations, I was doing all these other parts of the of the job. Um, and but I thought about it a little bit and I signed off on the idea. And then like two months later, as we like start to get some of the scripts that like came from that point on, I realized, oh, we got off track. Um it the show became something uh that it and it wasn't it wasn't any of the writers' faults, it was my fault, but like it became something that like it it was never meant to it it it fundamentally went was different than how it started, I guess. And um and so because of that, I I had to like, you know, the writer's room was almost done at that point, I had to kind of like re-re break everything. But the reason for that, uh, and we're back to back to the question about like where I uh one of my biggest faults there was that this the is the bandwidth level of like I I learned that I need to I need to protect the creative decisions a lot more. So like when I wrote that that kind of that very dense Bible, I was only focused on that one thing for however that that month that I was writing it. Whereas like this big decision that was that I was big creative decision that was being made, I was also making it while doing a thousand other things that were not creative necessarily, that were more like more logistical. And uh and so learning to like um not not let the creative uh overlap, oh creative decisions overlap with decisions that are um that are more of the seemingly mundane uh showrunner decisions, but uh otherwise all the the the the choices will be weak on all fronts, I guess. And I'm well we're gonna be paying for those later on, which I ended up having to pay for that later on as I'm you know doing rewrites from 8 to 4 a.m. Because I there's no there's not there's not enough time in the day anymore as you're like getting closer and closer to shooting.

SPEAKER_00 40:06

Um so yeah, I guess that speaks to the problem of the fact it is more than one job. Um it's about five different jobs. Um yeah, so I always like to ask people hypothetical questions. I'm interested in yours particularly because you've flipped between different versions of this. So if you had a choice between your next project being a movie, which is a massive success, but just a standalone movie. Um TV series, but being a massive success and being something that's really personal to you but only lasts for one year. Just because it's just sort of like it's oh there's there's no way this goes for an extra season because it's just not that sort of show. And then the third version is you write something which is maybe less personal to you, but is something that's got uh five seasons in it if it works. Which of those three things would you choose?

SPEAKER_04 41:12

Interesting question. Um I'd say uh while the five season one does feel like uh again, how we started this whole conversation, I just want to make sure I work and again, like I don't have to always share an office with my kids. Uh um that one does feel appealing. However, I because I haven't been in that environment, I haven't I haven't done on done that thing yet too too much where I'm I've done it a little bit where I'm working on something where I don't like I don't feel as like personally connected to. I'm I worry that I uh I worry I just wouldn't be as quite as good at it, good at it, good at it. But uh or that I I would not uh I would not be able to ever I don't know. I I that's my way of saying I don't know if it'd be option three. So of the two between a movie and a and a TV show, um it's what's tough there is that like there's that part I there's that part of me that just knows that I I I hope this changes, but like film film or just it's films just kind of held to like a different uh uh level still. And I it's it's it's more people in a in a way I don't know. I feel like I feel like more people see movies than than shows. And maybe I'm totally wrong about this. And I'm pulling this, I don't not like this is based on anything other than me like looking at uh just the world that I see, but like uh the things that like stand the test of time. Um I don't know. I think I think probably I'll probably pick a if if both the movie and the TV show, but it's a one-season TV show, which again, this is exactly what the resort and Palm Springs was. Resort was kind of meant as a one-season show. Um, I have a a path forward for a season two, but like it's still more a lot more people saw Palm Springs. Um and uh and while it wasn't didn't go in theaters, it wasn't it was was supposed to go in theaters at first and then the pandemic happened, but like I gotta see that in the in a the last movie I saw at the Arclight actually before it shut down, um, was a test screening of Palm Springs, uh the first week of March of 2020. And it was like seeing seeing a movie like in a pack theater, it's like it's um unlike anything. And we gotta see, you know, we had a premiere for the resort, and it was the first two episodes we aired, and that was like again, that was just it's such a fun, cool experience. Because there's there are moments in that that I like in the second episode specifically where I got designed to be a like a comedic set piece in a way um that is meant to be with an audience, but I never you never I don't you don't ever get to experience that though, because people are watching it on their own at home. And I uh I I I miss the theater experience and enjoying something with a big audience. And I just saw Triangle of Sadness the last weekend, and it was like a packed audience, and I have I was in tears laughing with a bunch of strangers in a room. I think that's uh there's a there's a power to that, and so therefore uh they I think I would 51% toward the the the the first uh the the movie won only because of the communal experience there. That was way too long of an answer. I could have just said kind of probably one, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 44:33

No, it's good. Well the reason I don't normally add in the thing about the long running show, but I knew that that would uh have some appeal given what you discussed. I'm rather enjoying this, but unfortunately the way podcasts work is we've reached the end um and we can't go on all day. So we have to ask the final question, which is if if you could give a single piece of advice to somebody entering this industry, what would that single piece of advice be?

SPEAKER_04 45:04

Hopefully I'll be able to edit out the the dead air here as I think about this single piece of advice. Um I think that like the best thing is that at least something that worked for me where I I knew that I had to like I knew I had to back myself into a corner to like actually go to go to a very I had to go to a very expensive film school and went into debt for it and stuff. I knew I had to back myself into that kind of financial corner because it was that part of me that knew I had to try this. I wouldn't be happy in 20 years if I didn't at least try. Um so once you get assuming that that's like you're you're going in for reasons where you just know you like you you have to do it, um the piece of advice then is uh really holding on to like like knowing how much um you can get out of like a little win, uh if that makes sense. I'll I'll explain uh very briefly. Uh in the the first couple years after like uh you know you you finish uh or the first couple years when you're trying to start out is like you might get like a meeting, a general meeting with an exec at a certain company, and uh and you'll be sent here's some here's three dates that work. And let's say one is this Friday, one is next Friday, and the other one is like in in three weeks. Um I'd say always pick the one that's in three weeks, uh, because it's such a depressing industry, a depressing job at times, like personally, like it's a really fun, great thing, but like it's you can re people can be very hard on themselves. I can be very hard on myself. But knowing that I have something to look forward to on the horizon uh is like is good. And so I know that like if I was taking this meeting on Friday, I'd only have like four days to be like to have have that in my mind. And then I take the meeting and then it's then it's done. Who knows what comes out of the meeting? It's not about that, it's about like m just having something to look forward to. And so if it's in three weeks, I know that's three weeks of like feeling a little a little better. Um, and uh, and I'm still doing that to this day where there's like a there's a TV show that I I I wrote with this other director, um, and we're either gonna take it out, we're like talking about do we take it out with the studio this year or um which you have to kind of do in the next couple weeks anyway because everyone stops working, um, or do we wait until next year? And and it was very pretty easy. We're like, oh, let's just wait until next year, because if we took it out now and we got a bunch of no's, then we're going into the holiday season, like depressed. But now we at least like if everything else falls apart in my life, I at least know that I'm going to pitch this move, this TV show sometime in February or early next year, and I have that to look forward to. And then the no hasn't happened. The the the reject the rejection hasn't happened yet. So just pushing off the rejection, I guess that's what it is. Push off the rejection as far as you can so that uh uh because until that rejection happens, you have hope.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

So extraordinary. What an amazing piece of advice. Uh I work in an industry where I always tell our sales team to ask for the no as soon as possible so you can move on. But uh I love I love the I love the fact that you're suggesting in your industry people do the opposite.

SPEAKER_04 48:14

Um at the same time, like I'm waiting for Peacock to like tell me if they want to do another season. I say like, give me that yes right now, just like because I yes or no right now, so I can I can move on. Uh, because now that's that's hanging over. So I see how it, I see how it can work both ways, but I uh but especially on the early side of early times of your career, I think it's it's important to just like you know, any any little thing that can keep you uh hopeful or like a little more positive minded is good. And like, and you know, knowing you have something in three weeks rather than one week, that helps.

SPEAKER_00 48:45

Yeah, amazing. So look, Andy Sierra, the the Palm Springs guy who soon will be the resort guy, and I'm sure will have no problem staying at work for a very long time. Thank you very much. Uh, and thank you to your daughter for letting uh you borrow her a room. Thank you for being on the podcast.

SPEAKER_04 49:02

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_03 49:08

Well, that's a wrap on this episode of Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss. As always, this episode was brought to you by Scriptation, the screen writing and annotation software that at the very least has made my life easier and will make your life easier as well. Uh, we'd like to thank our wives who put up with us recording these episodes in our offices and basements and closets and bathrooms and anywhere we can get a little space to record an interview. And of course, we want to thank James Launch who provided us with great intro and outro music.

SPEAKER_00 49:41

Uh, if you want to find us on social media, you can find Noah at NEVSlin on Twitter, tweeting a variety of writer-based nonsense and uh some terrible puns and occasionally begging for sponsorship. Uh if you want more refined tweets, mostly about football and whiskey, you can find me at Dan Rutstein. If you're interested in buying a copy of Scriptation, if you go to www.scriptation.com backslash stiffer, S-I-T-H-A, you will receive a special discount. Thank you very much for listening. As always, we appreciate you. Uh please give us any feedback, mostly positive stuff about me, and we will see you next week.

SPEAKER_03 50:26

And if you do say a negative thing about Dan, there is a chance I might buy you a free copy of Scriptation Boxing.