Take 65 - Producer, writer, showrunner Liz Hannah, The Post, The Dropout, The Girl from Plainville

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for shore, dozens of unproduced scripts littering the floor.

SPEAKER_04 0:14

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

For every success, there is months, sometimes even years, of painful failure. This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default.

SPEAKER_03 0:31

That's the norm. You have to be able to persevere. That process takes place. That doesn't happen overnight.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

I was being told by my manager it's yours to lose. And I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking, like, well, that's it for me. I blew my one big shot. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. I am your non-entertainment co-host, Dan Rotstein.

SPEAKER_04 1:10

And at this second, I am still your industry co-host, Noah Evslin. Today I'm delayed to introduce screenwriter, TV writer, and showrunner Liz Hanna. Uh Liz has produced credits. Liz's produced credits include the feature films The Post, Long Shot, and All the Bright Things. On the TV side, she's written and produced Mindhunter, The Dropout, as well as more recently, co-showrunning and co-creating The Girl from Plainville. Welcome, Liz.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

So this is one of these tricky situations where uh obviously we're here to talk about things that aren't going well in your career, but actually, you but your shows at the moment are doing particularly well, not just recently, but at this very moment, people are talking about how wonderful everything is. So are you still okay talking about the other parts of your career?

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Oh, constantly. Please. You don't get to this place that I feel very lucky to be in without a multitude of failures. And also my 10-week old screaming son is, I'm sure, very apt to tell everyone about my failures already as a mother. So I'm excited to dive in.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Excellent, excellent. So actually, well, let's actually do this. So you are uh at a particularly at the moment, you're doing incredibly well. Because to have got here, there have been some struggles. How do you deal with uh the success? Do you sort of you just waiting for something to go wrong, or you feel like you've earned it? Like, how do you deal with the success in a career like this?

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Um I mean, waiting for the other shoe to drop, I feel like is just a typical writer stereotype that we all fit into. Um, so yeah, waiting for the other shoe to drop, constantly feeling like, oh, I'm so happy that people are watching these shows. I'm never gonna get hired to do anything ever again. Um I I always think like my next job is my last job. So I haven't really taken a break in six years. Um that I mean, that's the other funny thing is that the dropout we wrote in 2019 and we were supposed to shoot in 2020, and then the pandemic happened, and um, then everyone involved dropped out of the dropout. And uh Liz Merriweather, the showrunner, um, like and the studio network ended up being able to piece it back together into the amazing series that it is now, um, but came out you know, three years after it was supposed to. So it and whereas Plainville, we rode and shot and we were wrapped production in December. So like that was a very quick process. So it's very strange that they both came out within like the same month of the same year. It was a very bizarre time for me. Um, but yeah, I mean, I think keep waiting for the other shoe to drop. I don't know. I I I also believe in celebrating your successes. I think people talk a lot about like humble brags or things like that. I don't, I don't, I there's a difference between celebrating and being an egotistical ass, you know. There's I think there's but there is value in celebrating your success because there are many, many, many, many, many more failures than successes. So I think once you get there, it's it's nice to celebrate it a little and then go back to work.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

So actually, let's talk about that for a second because we we often don't talk about that that sort of thing. I remember we had very early on in the show, we had a a writer who every time I think a project was sold, he'd buy his wife a gift. Um, and then when they'd go out for dinner, like you know, years later, you know, do you remember this from this show and so on? So, what does celebrating success actually look like for you personally? And I guess now within your family, but also with the people you've been working alongside. How do you make the most of these moments, given that everyone's been on a journey with lots of rejection and failure?

SPEAKER_01 4:59

Um, well, for me, I do something similar. Like when I sell a project, I'll buy something for myself. I now feel bad that I haven't been buying something for my husband in this scenario. Um sorry, Brian. Um, but I I do like as a as a reward because it's such hard, it's a it's a hard process to get to just the selling part. And then there's so much more involved in it. It's nice to have that something to remember like at this moment, this was all great. So that when it's terrible in other times, you remember that. And then the other thing for me is I I um get a tattoo on my wrist of a line uh for every project that I've completed. And and that's for me is like a something that deep, deep therapy has taught me to have closure on. So I can become very obsessive and like very it gets it's very hard for me to let go of projects, particularly ones that I'm very committed to or attached to personally. And so I get a tattoo to kind of remind myself like it's over and I'm moving on.

SPEAKER_04 5:58

Look looking at your uh career, I hope you have really long arms because that's gonna be a lot of tattoos. I'm assuming that's gonna go down your wrist. I hope so. I would be so lucky.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

That sounds great.

SPEAKER_04 6:09

But I I wanna, okay, you know, as Dan mentioned, we're a podcast about failure, rejection, and adversity, and that's where we normally stay. But we also have a lot of people who are just starting their careers. And I want to go back to your first project. And this you don't need to talk about the failure side, or although you can. You have a project that you write called The Post, and which eventually attracts Spielberg, Tom Hanks, and Meryl Streep and becomes a massive success.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

I think, I think they have a future ahead of them, those three.

SPEAKER_04 6:36

I I think they do, I think they do. I think they do.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

I think we should keep our eyes on them.

SPEAKER_04 6:40

Uh, luckily, they used your script as a springboard to uh to immense success. Exactly. This is my question. I mean, we talk a lot on social media and otherwise, and also with up-and-coming writers about how it used to be a lottery and it's not so much anymore. You very few people are writing a screenplay and make and and and having like multi-million dollar spec sales or whatever. Those days are kind of gone. The days of Steven Spielberg calling you on the phone and saying, I want to do your script, are few and far between. Now, granted, you're the second person on this podcast who Steven Spielberg has called. Uh and and I'm not sure he's called you, we don't haven't gone to the weeds of your story yet, but has wanted to do your project and as as one of the first, uh, Mickey Fisher came on and he said, So, like, talk about you are not, you know, it seems like this is your first screenplay and you're and you're a young screenwriter, but I could tell, you know, you've been working at it for a while. So it wasn't like it was the very first one you ever wrote, but it's it was your sort of entree into the business, and you couldn't have started with a bigger splash. Can you talk a little bit about the pressure of that, but also like the call to your mom or whatever that was when holy crap, this is going right?

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Yeah, well, also uh Mickey and I will be dueling later to make sure that there's only one of us left that Steven has made that phone call to. So, Mickey, so sorry. Um, I I I think uh it was really crazy. I had Annie and talking about failures. I I had been writing full time for three years. I'd left my job to write because that was what I wanted to do. And I was like, it'll happen so quickly. And I sold um a TV project to a production company kind of right off the bat, and I thought that was it. That I was like, I made it, and then I didn't get hired for a job for three more years. Um, and the post was just a it was a very surreal experience. Um, everything you're saying is true, that it doesn't happen like that. Um, and I had no intention of it that was I I had no idea that I don't know that like I could go in and plan it. Um, I would like Steven Spielberg to direct this, please. Um, but I like didn't even think it would get made. It's a movie that takes place in 1971 with two the two leads are in their 50s, nobody I think even kisses in the movie. And also, it's a moral thriller, which really is what makes studios lean in. Um, should we or should we not do this for 90 minutes? Uh, is is just the tick tock we're all waiting on. Um, but I really thought it was like I had really tried to get my writing career off the ground, and and I had not written anything that I thought was my voice, I had not written anything that like I actually wanted to make. And so it was a movie I'd been talking about writing for a very long time. And now I feel even worse because my husband was the one who told me to write it, and I did not buy him a gift at all when I sold it. So really just the worst here. Um, but I wrote it for myself. I wrote it to get an agent. I had managers, but didn't have an agent, and um it kind of just spiraled out of control. I think it was a situation where I wrote something that was if I tried to plan it, wouldn't have been timely. You know, I wrote it during the election in 2016. It sold about a week before the election, um, which was totally calm and nothing terrible happened in 2016 at all. It was like a really chill election year. Um and so I saw Amy Pascal bought it, and um, it was utterly bizarre. Um but like the interesting thing is that in that, and I and this is not asking one to play a tiny violin for me because it was a crazy and amazing part of my life and jumping up with my for my career, but there were also like a number of failures and a number of hard things within the making of that film and the selling of that script, you know, like every director rejected it that we went to for that first three months. Um, there was a constant feeling that like it wasn't timely. Um and then it it was, you know, like the studio wanted to make it, but it was a we couldn't make it without a certain level of of talent. And um I really had like emotionally moved on because I was just like, this movie's never gonna get made. And and that's fine. It did everything I wanted it to do and more. And then when Steven came on, which he wasn't available, and it was this whole like insane story of of how he got it, and like Tom and Meryl and Steven all signed on over the course of like one day. Um, which the phone call that you're asking about that I made to my mother, I didn't because I'm very superstitious. And so I was waiting to get confirmation from like everybody that Steven was officially in, and the confirmation came out in uh a leak to deadline. And my mother called me and was like, interesting news that I found out on Twitter. So that's also a failure. Sorry, mom. Um, but like in that, you know, Josh Singer got brought on, um, which in features is is a is a very normal thing for a more experienced writer to be brought on to a feature. That doesn't mean that like it you take it well ever, you know. That doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt and isn't like um a kick to the gut of what am I doing wrong? Keep in mind Josh had just won an Academy Award like four days earlier. So there was it was a little less about me. Um, but yeah, it was it was a I don't know, it was a crazy experience. I I I feel like I lost myself in your question somewhere, and now we are here.

SPEAKER_04 12:28

No, no, I I'm I'm we're both you can't see us, but we're down and are both leaning in. We're sort of a riveting answer uh on this, you know. But I you you mentioned, you know, having a a therapist, and we've had a lot of uh writers on, most of them come on, and there's there's people, you know, we have to deal with our it's a hard business, and we and it's it's much harder than people could can see from the outside. So we often will be sharing, you know, some of this with our therapist. But the moving forward a little bit, unless you want to stay in that world uh longer, is is the idea that you you you you know, you Josh Singer, other people, but your script attached attracted this talent and got this ball rolling. You're still on there as a credited writer. Uh and uh and it's amazing. I mean, this is like I'm jealous. I'm I'm rep, you know, my team's there, I'm jealous from the outside, going, what this person, like this is amazing. I want to be this person, right? Where all the writers are jealous. And uh uh, is there pressure after that? Like for the second, like what do you how do you pick up your pen again and being like, like, like I have to do this all over again uh at this high level? What is that? What what and what what conversations are you if you know you don't have to share the conversation with your therapist, but like what's what is your anxiety in these moments?

SPEAKER_01 13:37

Oh well, pull up a chair. What is it my anxiety in life, but also in these situations? I mean, I and again, I don't I really like the the I don't want anyone to think I'm like, oh, woe is me about the post. It was an incredible experience, but I think there is also just value in like the honesty of the experience in the in this industry, and that it's it's look, it there's nothing to to be unhappy about. But you know, I had never been rewritten before. And and luckily Josh and I were very close during that process and we're still very close now. And um, I feel very fortunate to have have have that friendship out of that and that that professional relationship out of that. Um, and I was on set and all of these things. But, you know, I think we all tend to have rose colored glasses, and that get that that makes it much more difficult for up-and-coming writers because then when these things happen to them that have all happened to us, but we just don't talk about for either like our egos or because you know, we don't want anybody to know we got rewritten or anything, then it feels like the first time it's ever happened. And that was how I felt. Like I never heard people talk about it, and then it happened to me. And everyone's like, Oh, yeah, that's just like sort of what happens. And so I don't know, there's a normalization of it in that there it's painful and there's ways to deal with it in the right way and the wrong way. And um, you should always call the people that you're rewriting. And if you're getting rewritten, always you know talk to them. And I I I I've been rewritten subsequently, I've rewritten people. It's a whole, I mean, I I have clearly quite a lot of anxiety around that. Um, but to to your question, there was an enormous amount of pressure that I felt um after the post sale in particular, um, because it was uh it just it it it kind of caught wildfire. It was it sold and then it was uh on the blacklist. And then once Steven and Meryl and Tom signed on it, it just kind of was everywhere. I mean, I mean, like there were mentions of it on Breitbart where I was like, this is an interesting place. I didn't expect to see my name, but here we are. Um and I I fortunately and sort of unfortunately in terms of my actual life and living it, I I mean what I said. Like I really just wanted a job and I wanted to keep working. And so I just kept, I just met everyone in town at possible. I like would follow up with people. I had an amazing I got an agent, an amazing who I I am still with. I have an amazing team, and my managers are incredible. And I literally just hustled for like a year. Um, and in that time, I met David Fincher. Um, while we were shooting the post, I met David Fincher about doing Mindhunter season two. They were just looking for freelance episodes written at that point. And I was like, Yes, can I pay you? Like, what how how does this work? Um and I wrote one episode of that and then ended up having a really good relationship with David and with Courtney Miles, who's the head writer and executive producer of the show, and uh ended up coming on as a producer, and that was like a almost a two-year process of the writing and then uh and then the production of that and eventual release. And I just didn't stop. Like, so I did the post and minehunter, and then I did Long Shot all at the same time. Um, Bright Places, I had actually written, I think right after the post had sold before we went into production. Um, I just was constantly working. And and there are a number of projects within that that never got made. You know, I wrote a movie called Only Plane in the Sky at MGM, and that was actually my first feature that I wrote after the post. Um, that was also a political feature, and that felt like a huge undertaking and was really scary. Um and I was like, do I want to be pigeonholed? And then I was like, don't be an idiot. People are wanting you to write interesting things. Who gives a shit? Um, and so it was the but it was a constant, and it's the constant anxiety I still have, which is like I'm never gonna get hired to do anything again. And that's not like a that's not that's not a I'm not saying that for someone to be like, oh no, you'll be fine. I mean like genuinely that is a fear I have because writers are freelance at their core. Like that's we just are. And I I I signed an overall deal with MRC um a year ago. And it was the first time since I'd quit my job in development that I had like a salary. And and that I I there I that gave me the first, and I did I guess I didn't like realize the tension I'd had that I was carrying for the years until then of like, oh, okay, so like I can pay my mortgage, you know, and like this is how much I can save and things like that. But uh truthfully, like my full anxiety on a daily basis is that I'll never be hired again, or that somebody will like find out that I tricked them.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

I think that answer is basically the entire reason we created this podcast. Um and you've explained it in a way I think a lot we've we've had people touch on uh imposter syndrome, we've had people touch on am I gonna get another project? Um but I think you've you've summed it up in an extraordinary way. But uh what does that I I feel bad asking these questions, but this is sort of you agree to come on our podcast. Yeah, we're here. Let's do it. Um what does that look like day to day? So before you sign the overall deal. Um because obviously as you said, you mentioned at least one movie that didn't make it. So how do you deal with that? So you've done the post, you've written something else, they don't want it for whatever reason. How do you deal with projects failing? Um, you know, like literally, is it sort of do you cry, do you smash things, do you swear at people? You obviously don't buy presents for your husband, but you know what do you do?

SPEAKER_01 19:37

Um I I dwell, I'm a dweller. Uh I my healthy answer is that I allow myself to dwell for a day and like be sad, and then the next day I go to work. Um, I've I've dealt with depression my whole life, and and I've been at times medicated and not, and I am currently not and haven't been for a long time. And one of the reasons is because sort of like a process for me that has worked has been to lean into it when I feel something like a like a depressive episode coming on and being conscious of it and like giving myself the space that it's okay to be sad, it's okay to feel depressed, it's okay. You don't, a you don't have to be happy all the time, and B, you don't have to explain why you're not happy. Like it's just is for some people. And that kind of is how I translate to dealing with rejection or dealing with failure is like leaning into it a little bit, um, in not a like self uh like um flagellating way, but in a, you know, this is sad. I love this project. I wish it went forward, and and I'll have a two or three drinks, and I will cry with my husband, and I will then, you know, in the best case scenario, I'll get up the next day with a very bad hangover and get ready to work again and be excited about something. I also part of it and part of the sort of fear of not working again is I've always had many, many projects going at the same time. Again, this doesn't necessarily mean like they're go projects, but they're, you know, while I was working on the dropout, I was writing the first draft of an adaptation of a book called Eleanor Olifant is completely fine. And I was, you know, in the room and doing that, and and I was looking for what my next show would be, and which ended up being The Girl from Plainville. And so like I was constantly working, which helps for me bridge the rejection or and the failures because I can turn my focus on something else rather than like turn my focus to a blank page. Because that for me is sort of the scariest thing is what happens if it ends poorly, and then all I have to do is rely on myself. Um, that is that is not great for anyone. So I I I try and keep myself occupied, I guess, is the real answer.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

So a question about the dropout which obviously phenomenal success. Um I think just in the last week I've had two or three people saying, Are you watching the show? Um but obviously it's about uh uh a combination of a company and all that goes wrong there, but also, frankly, an industry and a system uh that's broken that allows that to happen. It's different, but uh there's uh many parallels, I think, with uh the entertainment business, which is systemically uh broken, and there's individuals who can get away with things like that and other things. While you were sort of uh uh working on that, were there parts of sort of coming from an industry that's a bit broken? Does that help when you're trying to portray an industry and a system that's a bit broken, do you think?

SPEAKER_01 22:50

Yeah, I think it also helps that we're in a a very patriarchal industry in in the entertainment industry, or it has been for a very long time extremely male-dominated and male-run for the most part, as is the tech is as is technology, you know, as is the tech sector of the world and and um Silicon Valley, particularly at that time. So it I think it was definitely a weigh in, was it's double-sided a bit, you know, in that um a lot of the focus that Elizabeth Holmes got and a lot of the attention she got was because she was like a beautiful young woman who could go toe-to-toe with Peter Thiel and all these things. Then at the same time, the reason she got away with a lot of the things she got away with was because she was a beautiful young white woman in particular. And so the privilege that she had but on one side, and then the real difficulties on the other of being the only woman in a lot of these conversations. Um, so there were a lot of parallels to like I've been in in countless meetings where I'm the only woman. Um, it's it's just something that is is typical at this point, um and and and hopefully changing, but is not something unfamiliar. And so I think that was a way in for us, um, you know, and not to like hammer it over anybody's head, but I feel like that's kind of every industry is is like that. So something we could all relate to. But definitely, I mean, I think I think what's interesting about it is that the one thing that's different is talking about failure, is that like when you fail in the entertainment industry, at least for me, like I don't know that I get better. Like it doesn't necessarily like make me a better writer when somebody doesn't buy my script. It makes me sad and then I move on to the next thing. But like failure in technology and science is really important. You're you have to fail in order to move on to the learning process of the next step. And the thing for me that was always so fascinating about Elizabeth Combs was failure was not an option in any way, shape, or form, which begat, I think, in a many ways, why the box never worked, because you have to fail in order to succeed. So that was kind of an interesting conversation because as writers and showrunners and and filmmakers, I were just terrified of failure. And then like every project is your baby, and you don't want them to tell you your baby's ugly. So um it's there were a lot of parallels, but I think um I think the most striking were actually the things that weren't similar in that.

SPEAKER_04 25:32

I I thank you, by the way, for you know, I want to go back a hair to opening up about uh fighting depression while we're working in this industry. And you know, part of the podcast early on, a number of episodes ago, I had to explain to the people that listen, that I I had cancer for the first year that we're running this podcast and I was facing my greatest adversity. What I never talked about on this podcast before was, you know, I'm 13 years sober too. That's a different struggle. And and and the reason, you know, why I one of the reasons why I became sober is I realized I had to feel my emotions, right? In order to be a good writer, I have to feel my emotions. And you're talking about, no, I'm not knocking anyone who goes on medication because I know I need it, people need meds, I'm on different meds too. There's things you need for your body. So this is not a criticism. But we as writers have to open ourselves up to feeling things. And it's one of the few jobs, you know, a lot of jobs, your physical well-being is on the line. If you're, you know, what this or that. We're in a job where our emotional well-being is on the line. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because if it doesn't seem like you're scared to probe into that, you're well aware of the dangers that you face in your own life, yet your work reflects your ability to face those fears, it seems like.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

Well, I appreciate that. And thank you for sharing. Um, congratulations on 13 years. It's an enormous accomplishment. Um I, you know, uh, I would say that I was really afraid of being honest about my own struggles or putting that in my work until I did, until I produced all the bright places. Like writing it felt very internal and it was based on a book, and so it felt safe. And then it wasn't until we were making the movie that I felt like I really needed to open up and have conversations about why I was connected to this material. And, you know, I I specific to that, um, the main character in the book. Um, in the movie, we didn't uh identify what he was struggling with because we didn't have the runway to define it in a way that felt responsible. So um, and I also just don't think everyone needs their mental health to be defined. We're all having it. We don't, you know, it's it's a it's your own personal journey, however you want to deal or not deal, um, and be healthy. Um, but in my life, I've I have people close to me who are bipolar, um, which is what the character Finch was dealing with in in the book. And that was something that has been a real um journey for me and in in my my family and friends and and um something to grow up with and around. Um and so, and and like frankly, for me, like being a teenager and being scared I was bipolar and and I'm not, I you know, I I would went through all the tests and whatever tests you can have. But that was something that was like a really personal thing that I was afraid to talk about. And then realized once I started talking about it, it was a very um warm reception, you know, and a warm, a warm conversation. Um and so starting there, I think that was what made me start leaning into, you know, look, I still write things, I think, with the the safety blanket of a true story um being told, you know. So I I still hide a little bit behind the real people uh in that. But I think it has made me attracted to more stories that I feel a real connection to, you know, Girl from Plainville is obviously a story about, um, or based on based on the story of Michelle Carter and Conrad Roy and his death by suicide and their lives and the relationship that they had prior to that. Um, and there was a lot in that that that just felt very relevant to my personal journey, to people I knew and and ways I'd been touched by depression or suicide or suicidal aditions in my life. And every care or grief, you know, or every character in that story is touched by it in some way in some way. And their mental health is sort of the where we I think chose to focus our storytelling in kind of exploring the conversation mental health. Um, so yeah, I mean, I I think it it's it's for me, um it's it's the only way that I guess I can be healthy. And I also, it was so scary for me to do it that, and then so not scary to do it. Like the idea of doing something that personal and being that open and vulnerable was really scary to me. And then once I did it, I was like, oh, this water is warm. Like we are all dealing with our things and like we can all talk about it. And once you tell one person, like, so yeah, I've dealt with depression, they're like, pull up a chair, I am here, like let's go down that rabbit hole. So, because the other thing as writers is that we really like to talk about ourselves. So there you go. Um, I sorry, I think, yeah, it was uh that so in that I felt like people should feel comfortable talking about it. And and I I don't have any interest in being like, oh, I'm so strong for doing this. It's more like I ripped the band-aid off and the band-aid was not as scary as I thought it would be. So um, so yeah, that's so that's where we are. I'm at the table. Pull up a chair. It's great.

SPEAKER_04 30:49

Speaking about of support systems and ripping off the band-aid, this is either a lighter or heavier question, depending on how you take it. But your husband, who you've mentioned a number of times, is also a high-level writer, Brian. And he, you know, we've had, I don't know if we had another writer on here whose spouse is also, we've had other spouses who do other things in the industry, but who actually do the same thing that you do. Does that make it easier or harder on the marriage having somebody who knows exactly what you're going through? Do you have colliding neuroses, or is it like he gets it perfectly because he's in it too?

SPEAKER_01 31:23

Um I mean, I think fortunately for our, fortunately or unfortunately for our child, our neuroses are similar, but really a kaleidoscope of emotions. So um apologies to Oliver that this is just gonna be an exciting journey to discovery of what you're anxious about. But I um the truth is it I think it makes our relationship much deeper and and is of an enormous positive in our relationship that we do the same job. Um we're also not competitive with each other in any way, um, and have had to along the way make sacrifices and decisions because it was from very early on. Our conversations were that our relationship was more important to us and that we could, if if our jobs got in the way of our relationship, we'd go be librarians in the middle of nowhere. And we still have that deal that, like, if this becomes more of a problem than um it being our jobs that we love, but becomes more important than that, then it's time to go to the middle of nowhere and run a library. Um, so I think valuing our relationship above anything else is what is important to us. Um, she says, as she's been in meetings and press all day, uh, while my screaming child is in my husband's arms, and I waved when I came home. So he will be getting that gift. Decision has been made. Um, but I also think it's like, and and we joke about this, so it, but it's also like a free writer's room in the house, you know, and and we help each other break things. He's my first, he's the first person who ever reads anything I write. He read the 165-page draft of the post. That was the first draft I wrote that like I think was called the Papers at that point, and then it was called the Post, and then because he titled it the Post. Um, so it's it's for me, it's a real positive. I I had never dated a writer, uh, or or I dated a writer, but I'd never like really been in a long-term relationship with a writer producer when um we first met. And I was like, oh, this is this is this makes sense. I can come home and like talk about a writer's room and not have to explain what a supervising producer is. Great.

SPEAKER_00 33:47

So you have in a rare way flitted from one side of the business to the other. Um and there's there's a debate I think we once had about which is easier, you know, is it easier to move from features to TV or TV to features? But you've sort of you know you've done both. You've I know some of it was uh a coincidence that you've got two things out at the moment, you know, they weren't meant to be out, but they are. So that's uh two projects everyone's seeing enormous success from and thinking we really must do some work with this this Anna person. So what's next uh for you? Do you want if you can choose the next uh project? Do you want uh to do another feature and uh you know win an Oscar? Do you want to have a TV show that ends up doing like 15 series and you make enough money that you really can buy nice gifts for yourself and and and other people in your family? Um or do you want to, you know, is it books or I'm sure maybe it's comics? Like given you seem to be able to move between them, what is the ideal next project and success linked to that?

SPEAKER_01 35:01

Uh a variety of the things you mentioned. I've I've often linked myself um to who I'll be working with. Rather, uh that's usually my first question. Um, because film and television is such a collaborative medium that um uh anytime I've done a project where I haven't known the people that I'm working with or made that, I think, the valuable question I ask, it's not ended well for me. Um, for either the movie doesn't get made or the TV project doesn't come forward, or you know, it's not a good experience or whatever. And I'm not putting the onus, full oneness on just that decision. But um it's that has been, you know, sort of again, I want to like the life I'm leading uh as well as have a job. And so that means I want to like the people I'm working with too. Um, so I'd rather do something like a weird project or something different off the beaten path and really enjoy the people I'm working with. So that's kind of why I've bounced back and forth between different worlds in film and television and also different genres. Like I'm fairly genre agnostic. I I I'm not probably gonna write um like a horrific torture, you know, movie, but uh, you know, we'll see. Um, but I think if there's something to say, again, pull up a chair. Um, but it has it's always been about the people. Um with the dropout, it was Liz Merriweather. And at that time, Kate McKinnon was attached, and I really wanted to work with them. And Plainville was obviously I I really felt that there was something to say about mental health, and and I was really interested in the story. And Elle and I had worked together and wanted to work together again. So there was that. Um again, you know, Tom Hanks and Beryl Streep were really fortunate, I think, that they that we found them for the post. So I think that they really are gonna find some great success one of these days. Um, it was just a real discovery, I think, on our part. But in terms of like what's next, um, I want, I, I want to write like a big movie, like a tent pole movie. I it's sort of a challenge I haven't taken on at this point. I've I've I've sort of flirted with the idea and flirted with certain projects. And um, I've come in and and sort of helped out on a couple scripts. So I've never from like the ground up done, you know, like either a Marvel movie, you know, like a big franchise style movie. Um, and that's a challenge that I think is really exciting and I'd like to do um on like a very sort of like intellectual writer place that that sounds really interesting to me. Um I have you know like a laundry list of people I'd like to work with and don't care if what medium it's in, if they all want me to do a graphic novel as well. I did go to art school, but like I haven't drawn anything in 20 years. So, you know, I'm game, but we can we can try it. Um, and then you know, I am the first person to say that um awards should not be the sole representation of success and happiness. Like I um with the post, everybody was like, you're gonna get nominated, you're gonna get nominated, you're gonna get nominated. There was like no doubt in anybody's mind that Josh and I were gonna get nominated, and then we didn't get nominated. And it was like a, I think a very um, a it was very humbling in a way that shockingly the world does not center around me. I know, bizarre. Um, but also like that I had put the value of that experience purely on whether or not we were getting nominated for an Academy Award was an unfair reflection of the process and an unfair reflection of that film because it's it's like there's nothing you can guarantee. Um, I say this while we are currently like in Emmy season for for both the Girl from Plainville and the Dropout, and I'm wildly aware of my uh inability to disconnect from that while I'm in it. So like I I'm I am just as human as everybody else and is like, yes, I would really like that the shows that I put a lot of heart into, and that all of my incredibly talented colleagues put a lot of heart into to be recognized at that level. I hope that I am um older and more mature, that if that doesn't happen, that it it that it I don't devalue the experience in it, um and that I've learned from that process. I might learn after 24 hours and having a few cocktails and crying with my husband, but I hope that that I have matured in that way. But I do, you know, I I I I do think that being recognized by your peers, having um I was really honestly the the the nicest thing I think that's ever happened as a writer in terms of any of this is um Mindhunter got nominated for a WGA award for best drama series. And like we there was no campaigning whatsoever. It was like there's nothing. I didn't even know we were submitted for it. And by the way, we I was like, should we go? Because we're up against succession, guys. I don't think it's our night, but like lovely to be here. And I really mean that. That was like an incredible recognition for and and and I I don't um say this as like a pat on my back. Courtney Miles wrote that that show, and like, so it was really an incredible recognition of her. But when you don't like do the political thing and you don't campaign and you don't expect anything for that recognition is really incredible, and um, so that's really what it is. And I want so, in terms of the very long answer to your your um concise question is I'd like to to write something I haven't written before, be that a tent pole of some kind, or or you know, work with people that I haven't worked for uh for or with um to to do something like that. I do want to direct again. I directed two episodes of Plainville. Um, so I I that is very exciting for me to to stretch my wings a bit and see how that goes. And then yeah, I I I would like to continue to make things that are at least in the zeitgeist of conversation and and um are pushing the envelope in terms of what we've seen or haven't seen or what the how what the conversation has been centered on, I guess, um, and and how we can evolve that.

SPEAKER_04 41:37

That's a great answer. Uh uh, I have a more uh personal, not too personal, but a personal question that you're you mentioned, your two-month-old baby, and uh uh you know, I've been writing professionally for I don't know, a long time, but 11 and I identified as a writer, but 11 years ago I had a son, and then six years ago I had another son, and I re-identified as a father first and as a writer second, and it was a process of like who am I and what am I? But I think ultimately my work deepened and richened. And I know that you're in the weeds. Two months is man, this is this is taking up your your night. Oh, it's awful, it's annual.

SPEAKER_01 42:09

Yeah, no, it's the hardest thing that people don't understand how hard it is. It's truly terrible. No, like he's really cute, it's truly fucking awful. But yeah, like at some point it'll he'll stop crying. I'm excited.

SPEAKER_04 42:19

Do you find that the things well you you know, yeah, one more month, hopefully. Uh, that the things that you're focusing on caring about, you know, so like like you're talking about not getting the award and fundamentally switching your your no your mind that that's not important or that is important, or your work, or being obsessed. I think we're all super obsessive, uh being obsessed by work and then realizing you can't be 100% obsessed by work, you have a living creature, you know, squirming next to you. Has that process sort of begin to sunk in, the projects you're thinking about at all, or is it just still too early?

SPEAKER_01 42:50

Yeah, um it partially uh I mean I still have a very like difficult time just realizing I'm a parent. That's just like I mean, he's super fresh and like so are we. So that's like a that that's just like a strange idea that still feels slightly um intellectual, not real. But I found out I was pregnant the day we got to Savannah to start prep for the girl from Plainville. Um, and he I was it was a surprise pregnancy. And um I so I was pregnant during the whole production and it was my first pregnancy and um our first child, and also the first time that like I made a show and I wasn't chain smoking the entire time, and I wasn't like a show or a movie, and also that I had something that was more important literally growing in me. Um that it allowed me to, I think, hold space for the show and stress and all of these things. And feel very obsessive and and um it felt that it was very important, but also like I would go home and after downloading my husband on the day, like we would let it go and that would be it. And then I'd sleep for two for two days and we all we would do would talk would be talking about the baby. And it helped me, I think, not become too obsessively nervous about the pregnancy and all of those things. Um, you know, because I was a geriatric parent, uh mother being over the age of 34. Literally go fuck yourselves, obese. Don't ever call me geriatric again at 34. Rude. But, anyways, um, I I like could I think have like a slightly healthier experience than I know that I would have if I if I was just at home obsessing over being pregnant, like what could go wrong and how many fingers would he have and all of these things. Um so that like started the process for us in just in just how we lived our lives in that way. And then it is changing how I think both of us are approaching what our next projects will be in and in particular in television. My husband works primarily in television and um where we make those shows, what if both of us go, you know, we both moved to Savannah full-time for um Plainville, which I equally had a lot to do with COVID. I couldn't fly back and forth. So we decided to all go, and everything was remote anyways. Um, but it does, I think it just just changes this view for a second. I said that I was gonna take time off. Like I was like, I'm gonna enjoy my maternity leave, quote unquote, she says, because that's a thing. And also um I was like, I'm gonna really take time to think about what I want to do next and things like that. Nope, I'm right back to work. I still terrified never gonna get a job again. Um, but in what that was, like there was a very, I think, thoughtful kind of there were many thoughtful conversations with my husband and with my team, you know, about what it would be and what the responsibilities of it would be.

SPEAKER_00 46:12

So given that you are almost the ideal guest for this podcast in so many ways, it pains me to say that we've reached the final question. Um, although um I think we're gonna be talking about whether we can get you back on because I feel like we haven't even scratched the surface of the things I'm gonna ask you and the things that you probably want to talk about.

SPEAKER_01 46:32

Um the layers of anxiety that I can dig into. It's really like a limited series podcast that I think we should just set aside eight to ten hours. My therapist can come on. Uh I I was talking to some friends today and I was like over Zoom, and I was like, should we just have our therapists like listen? Is that like and then like this will help with the conversation later? And maybe we like they'll understand us a little more bit more. So I'm ready. Let's start unpacking.

SPEAKER_00 47:02

Um, so actually, we should get a therapist on here if they can break confidentiality. Um, could be a good podcast. But we are at the final question, which we ask every guest, which is if you could give a single piece of advice for somebody looking to follow in your footsteps and enter this industry, what advice would you give them?

SPEAKER_01 47:24

Um, my like always my very typical, I think, advice for a writer is to read everything, um, which, you know, is a it's a practical thing. You should read everything. I the most education I've ever gotten is to read bad scripts. Um, it I think learning what not to do is like the most helpful thing. And also just learning what you like, your taste, watch a lot of movies. Just don't just say I don't like it. I made a joke about going to art school, but actually, like an art school education was the greatest thing that could have taught me how to have an opinion because we would have a six-hour figure drawing class and then you'd have a critique, which also teaches you to just really have thick skin. Um, and you couldn't just say I don't like it. You had you had to, or I you couldn't say I like it. You had to have um contextualization for that. So um I think contextualizing your taste is really important. Having said that, um, the the true advice I would give is is, and I uh this is a name drop, so apologies, but um also not because he's one of the most magnificent, magnificent people I've worked with. Rick Carter, uh, who is a production designer on the post, um, would I never met him, I'd never worked with him until we did the post. And um, we built the whole newsroom of the Washington Post in this like falling down office building in White Plains, New York. And the first time I walked on set, it was the first time I met Rick, and he like pulled me aside and he was like, You created all of this. You on the page brought this to life. And I was like, uh, thanks, Rick. And you know, like had was so wildly uncomfortable in the entire situation that I was in. I was like, Tom Hanks is over there. This is very bizarre. Um, like everything was weird. Janusz Kaminsky is here, like right now. Um, it was all very weird. Um, but he was the one who I did not take the advice from that I should have, which goes to what we were talking about before, um, which was not putting value on someone else um telling you that your project was worthy, uh, and not putting value on someone else telling you that your project was a success. Um, I think how we value success and failure is in this industry is both by is both monetary and awards driven. Um, again, she says during Emmy season, I am aware that this is a conversation that I am having and painfully aware of the reality that we're all going through right now. So please stop laughing at me, everybody who's listening at this, and truly try and take the advice that I'm trying to take from myself and from Rick, which is um like enjoying the experience and enjoying the ride and realizing that success comes from your own barometer. I had an absolutely incredible, horrible, life-changing, painful, pregnant experience making the girl from Plainville in Savannah, Georgia for six months with a bunch of incredibly talented, nutty people. And I would not trade that for anything in the world except for I'd love to do it without COVID next time, because that was terrible. Um I don't want to lose sight of that. And we made a really, really hard show. Like I think it was it was a very, very difficult show to make and it the subject matter was difficult. And we chose to make a hard show. We chose to do things that were not typical. And I, in my opinion, I think we really pulled them off. And I say that uh with all the compliments going to the people who made it, the caught like my colleagues and the cast and the crew. Um, I I'm the showrunner, so I get to reap all of the benefits from from their very hard work. Um, but they are the ones that deserve the credit. And so I truly am trying to take my own advice, which is enjoy the process, enjoy the ride. It does not happen all the time. For every movie I've made, there's three more that didn't get made for every television project I've made. There's a dozen that didn't get made. Um and I hope that I listen to myself and and remember like, you know, being on set in Savannah in 90 degree weather in November because it's always hot there. Um, and like Colton's girlfriend bringing us bojangles and us like laughing and and making a show. That's what I hope I remember and I hope I don't lose sight of that. So I I think enjoy it while it's there.

SPEAKER_00 52:08

Fantastic. Well, look, we've enjoyed this ride and we've enjoyed this process. Liz Handler, thank you very much for being part of this podcast.

SPEAKER_01 52:15

Thank you guys so much. This was so fun. I really feel like I could call my therapist and be like, we can skip a week. I'm good. I am unpacked for today.

SPEAKER_04 52:26

Thanks. And that's a wrap on this episode of Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss. As always, we want to thank James Launch for the amazing theme music.

SPEAKER_00 52:38

Do you before we sort of thank our wives and stuff, do you think anyone actually listens this far, or do they stop when the music comes back in?

SPEAKER_04 52:45

I think they normally stop after you mention your second and third podcast. That'd be my guess. Well, I haven't mentioned them yet, though, have I. Uh, if you do want to reach out with us to us for criticisms, complaints, or praise, uh, you can either reach out to us through the website or I am at nebslin on Twitter. And Dan, do you have an account?

SPEAKER_00 53:04

Not that anyone really cares about. So if you've got complaints about the show, go to NEBslin and feel free to air those. If you have praise or you want to pay us in some way for something, come to at Dan Rutstein. And have a great day.