Take 54 - Jen McGowan, Director, Rust Creek

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for shore, dozens of unproduced scripts littering or all of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

For every six days, there is something even this is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is like everything in our business here and okay.

SPEAKER_05 0:43

I was being told by my manager it's yours to lose. And I probably lost it. And I remember thinking like, well, that's it for me. I do my one-bit shot. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss. And here we're gonna be for the fourth episode in our series. We had a great chat last week with yet another Canadian. Now, are we are we having too many Canadians on the show, or is it just the right amounts?

SPEAKER_02 1:18

I think because it's colder in Canada, that there's just a higher number of people who go into the literary arts. And so it's by pure accident that we've actually had an enormously high proportion. Or we have to admit, something that's really hard to admit, that Canadians might just be a little bit more talented than the average American.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

Even I wouldn't say that. But no, I think uh it's there was a bit of fun sort of Canadian Twitter action after our podcast because we have had so many Canadian guests, and they I think they like to see more Canadians come on. But um, I'm sure it is just a coincidence. But it's it's I like having the Canadians on. It's a I think it's a slightly different perspective. And I what I liked about Brad is the the actual not moving to Hollywood part of it as much as doesn't really matter where he's from, but actually, you know, there's a lot going on in Hollywood, but I think the pandemic has changed things as well. But not being here, I mean, you you were doing Zoom rooms for your show from Hawaii for a lot of the pandemic. I think the world has changed in terms of what proximity means.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

Oh, yeah, for sure. And I think it gives hope to a lot of people who who have been asking the question do I need to move to Los Angeles? And many people, you know, it's very privileged that people can move here and that some people can, but often people can't. And people like Brad, uh Jonathan Lloyd Walker, and others are saying, No, we you can live, Paul Bay, friend of the podcast, you can live in Canada and have a great career. And and what I liked about Brad's interview too was, you know, this was a showrunner with so many shows and episodes that he has under his belt. And to, you know, come at talking about failure and rejection from that level of experience and depth of knowledge was was sort of fascinating to me about just the reflection on it all, and yet still the burning desire to keep creating.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

Absolutely. Now, look, before we talk about today's guest, Jen McGowan, let's um we have a listener question.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

We do, we do. And I picked this one out of the box because it's from uh the UK. We have Caleb from Leeds, I'm not sure where Leeds is, but somewhere in the UK, uh, asking the question to Dan this time. Dan, you mentioned that you've uh you know written a screenplay a few times on the podcast. Do you really want to be a writer? Are you really writing, or is that all a joke?

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Well, it's nice to have a that we do have international listeners. We see the stats and they're we have them in all sorts of places, but it's nice to have someone from the home country. Um, I I don't remember mentioning my my script, The Consulate, uh, and how that none of the showrunners have picked it up. Um, no, look, I I when I was leaving government, I wrote uh a I did the write what you know. So I wrote a 30-minute dramedy pilot about a British diplomat in Los Angeles. Uh I'm not sure I wrote it because I wanted to be a writer. I wrote it because I used to be a journalist, so I knew how to write in a generic sense. So I bought myself some writing software, learnt broadly the difference between ellipses and brackets and all that sort of stuff, and had a crack at writing one because just felt it was the right thing to do. I don't think I want to be a writer. And actually, after 50 something episodes of this podcast and hearing how hard the industry is, I'm pretty sure I definitely don't want to be a writer. Uh and I have, you know, I've obviously I've read lots of scripts from lots of people, including you, Noah, and I'm well aware of the difference between my attempts at cracking something out and uh real writing in terms of obviously structure and character development and dialogue and so on. I think I would desperately like to be in some way involved in the industry, but not as a full-time job. So Noah has many times told me about his days on Grey's Anatomy and the doctors that you had on call to come in and you'd put in the script medical medical, and the doctor would come in and use normally lupus, I think, but um but no certainly in house it was, but you know, filling in those gaps. And I think I I've definitely got something to offer from my other careers in business and diplomacy and sport to be a consultant of some kind in a room. But I I think I I'd like to think I'd like to be a writer, but I don't think I've got the at my age the appetite to go through what some of you people have gone through. Um but I am fascinated by the industry. This podcast has definitely increased that fascination, and I'd love to play around the outside of it. But no, Caleb from Leeds. I don't think I'm I don't think I've got the given the the level of desire that you need to really make it, I don't have 10 years of commitment to the writing craft that some of you people have. So I'll stick to podcasting and being paid a huge amount of money to just look at scripts and go, no, no, no, that's not what diplomatic immunity means.

SPEAKER_02 6:10

I I don't think you've yet seen to have yet seen what consultants actually get paid. But uh, and ironically, you are peripherally in the industry with this podcast. Uh, but of course, this is a labor of love for both you and I. So we're it costs us money, doesn't earn us money. Uh, but I do want to spend you know one second teeing up our our next guest for today. Because what I found fascinating with a conversation with Jen is A, she's she doesn't come at this from a writer. And we accidentally stumbled into this thing where we interview more writers than anyone else. And that's because I'm a writer and that's who I know. But today, Jen, she's a director and she came up as a UPM. So she had a different sort of trajectory into this business and was sort of willing to talk about some of the struggles uh that she's faced, but also she's sort of coming at the mountain from a different angle. And so for anybody who is, you know, hasn't taken the approach that I've taken or many of our guests have taken to get into the industry, she sort of figured out a different way in. And that was equally effective, um, even though she'll admit that it took a long time, like it does for all of us.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Yeah, so for those who are regular listeners, this will be fewer direct, tell me about the project that didn't work, that failed, or tell me the ridiculous way in which you know your pilot didn't get picked up. But it's more generic about the industry, about expectations setting what you need to do to succeed. Um, and I think it's a fascinating insight into a different bit of Hollywood. With no further ado, this is our interview with Jen McGowan. Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. As ever, I am your non-entertainment British co-host Dan Rutstein.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

And I am your industry American slash Hawaiian or from Hawaii co-host Noah Eveslin. Today I'm excited to introduce film and TV director Jen McGowan. Jen directed the movies Kelly and Cal, Rust Creek, as well as episodes of the TV shows The Purge, The Twilight Zone, The Game, and Star Trek Discovery. Welcome, Jen.

SPEAKER_04 8:20

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

Um I don't want to spoil the podcast by asking the question of I thought Hawaii was in America.

SPEAKER_03 8:29

I was thinking the same thing, but it sounds like it might be a might be a political minefield.

SPEAKER_02 8:34

Let me let me let me let me um clarify a couple of things. I am not Hawaiian, so that's why I quickly went from Hawaiian to Hawaii. Uh my my wife and kids are, but I am not. Uh but no, we we like to think we're a separate country. Uh the the island I'm from was actually called a separate kingdom, the island of Kauai. They were never conquered. And uh many people from Hawaii are still a little bit uncomfortable with the fact that they're a 50th state for reasons that we probably won't ever get into in this podcast, but maybe in another podcast that I host one day.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

Thank you for that now. Also, I like the fact that the British flag sits in the Hawaiian flag as well. But anyway, let's actually talk about our guests rather than American internal politics. So I'm actually gonna I'm trying to work out where to start. And I'm actually not gonna start with rejection or failure. This actually might not even be an adversity question, in which case we've sort of ruined the theme of the podcast. But you do boxing, and that just feels like a really interesting place to start, even though it's nothing to do with the industry. But we'll probably end up, I imagine, the adversity involved in boxing takes us somehow back into the industry. Tell us about boxing and why you do it and how you do it, and then we can find a way of linking back to Hollywood.

SPEAKER_04 9:46

Yeah, well, this is gonna be a tricky one. So, Noah, I hope you're you're busily uh, you know, writing the transitions because I don't really envision how this is gonna work. But um, yes, I do do boxing. I actually started, let's see, I guess it was six years ago now. Um, and it was because this is the only thing I believe Donald Trump has done. I was so angry all the time because of him that I was like, I have to deal with this somehow, or I am going to get myself fired. Um, so I, you know, one of my friends uh is a golden gloves winning boxer, uh Jill Morley. She's she's a great, she's my coach now. And um, I just flippantly said to her, you don't have anything with Trump's face on it to hit, do you? And she responded with a heavy bag with Trump's face on it and six women pounding it. And I was like, that's perfect. Sign me up. Uh and that was six years ago. And yeah, but I've been doing it ever since. I I box four to five times a week, depending on um, you know, where I'm at in production. If I'm shooting, I just do it once a week. And yeah, I I love it. And and it actually does help me a lot. There's a lot you learn from doing something unrelated to the industry. I feel sometimes that you can you can hear lessons that maybe you can't hear when you're when you're receiving them on the job.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

U first off, uh Dan's about to ask a question, but first off, I want to add that how can you say there is no comparison between boxing and what we do in Hollywood? We get our ass kicked every single day.

SPEAKER_04 11:26

There is no better metaphor for what we do on a daily basis than just actually hit in the face for real, getting through our days is is is is a piece of cake.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

But this this transition is actually gonna be a bit easier than I thought because I I do karate.

SPEAKER_03 11:44

Oh, great. Oh, yeah, similar.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

And I do it three or four times a week, and it's for slightly different reasons in a way, but if I've had a difficult day, and and normally it's just being a parent of two young children during a global pandemic, going off and kicking people in the face or kicking people as hard as you can or punching people as hard as you can, it's a great way of getting that out of you without you shouting at your spouse or your children or your people. Um and it's great to have that outlet. So, one of the questions we have asked other guests is about how they deal with rejection and failure. And some people talk about you know, exercise or smoking or drinking or friends as a way of some of that. So I know maybe it was politics, and I don't know how much of that was joking, but actually having a chance to you know genuinely use out some aggression, does that help? Oh, absolutely. Which is absolutely yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_04 12:39

I mean, not just aggression either. It's also like I said, you learn a lot of things. Like I I've also been been training with the same team of women for these six years, and you learn a lot about yourself, how you deal with stress, how you deal with pressure, and how those around you deal with it in different ways. Um, so I find that all very useful. And in terms of dealing with rejection, you know, I think I see a therapist as well. I think that's very important. And and honestly, I see it so that I can be as best in my job as I possibly can, you know, and I can be as effective in my job as I possibly can. Um, and that's important. I think just having incredible discipline so that I do the job regardless of how I feel. Um, and then also laughing a lot. Um, it's just I I said this the other day to someone, and my husband and I talk about it all the time, but our industry is like a a challenge in in daily humiliations and how to how to deal with that while still, you know, loving what you do and being enjoyable to be around and turning in good work.

SPEAKER_02 13:58

I have a question about your uh speaking of good work and a whole career of doing good work, of your journey to become a director, because we've we have a lot of writers on here. And obviously, if you want to be a writer, you just start writing. There's not a lot of barrier to actually beginning the process. Getting into Hollywood's a different story, but it's so great. I want to write a screenplay, you're gonna sit down and you're gonna get a program and you're gonna write a screenplay, or even just write it long hand. And other fields, you want to be an actor, you start to act in the mirror. This is just the beginning of the process. You want to direct, there's barriers, right? People are you you need people, you need you need cameras, you need a crew, you need a whole permission and you need a dream, I I think, right? You need to be able to visualize this. So tell me a little bit. I know that you, you know, uh did your first short about 20 years ago. So you've been you've been at this for a long time, but you also were a production manager and a unit production manager. Like, like, was that always to become a director? Was that always a dream? Or did you realize while you know being a UPM and maybe explain to our podcast listeners what that is, yeah, that you eventually wanted to direct?

SPEAKER_04 15:03

So there's a few things in there. First, I will say I had no idea I wanted to direct until after I was out of college. I grew up outside of DC in Northern Virginia with uh, you know, my mom who's a nurse, my dad worked for the government at the time. And um I didn't know making stuff was like a viable job. I mean, that's debatable still, but in it in any case, it's possible. Um it wasn't on my radar, you know, it just wasn't part of my my worldview. Uh and then, you know, I was kind of a screw up in high school, so I didn't have the best grades. And I was like, well, I, you know, I enjoyed theater, I enjoyed acting, so let's let's do that. Um and I I applied to three or four schools. I got into NYU and I was like, okay, mom, you know, for me, it was like, yes, let's go to New York. Um and I I fell in love with with acting there. I fell in love with with theater and with plays and and I studied at the Atlantic Theater Company, which was David Mammoth's um uh theater company. And at the time, it was before they had, you know, uh bought a separate school and all uh and buildings. So we trained on the on the stage with the main stage actors. It was it was brilliant. Um and I loved it, but when I got it, when I finished MYU, I was like, I just don't enjoy the life of an actor. You know, I didn't have any guidance or context in my life for how to be successful in that, how to be happy in that, how to, you know, I just didn't know. Um, and I I was getting cast in things, but I was getting cast in things that I didn't enjoy. And and I didn't I didn't have the perspective to be able to see that as a step um and as something that you you go through. So I was frustrated. And uh, and you know, at the time I worked as a receptionist at a commercial production company, and that that kind of pays off later, um, which was just my day job, you know. I thought, oh, cool, I'll get something that's kind of tangential to the industry and be around it while I pay my rent and audition. And you know, being around commercial directors and producers and storyboard artists and DPs, I was like, that is cool. I want to do that. Um, and it made me feel empowered that I could create something. So now this is back in the days of like 16 millimeter, and you know, it was it was a major endeavor making a short film. It wasn't just you know, use your your cell phone. Um, but I did, you know, I saved up as much money as I could, and I um I did a little short film, um, and you know, finished it. It was horrible, but for me, it was important because it's what made me realize I wanted to direct. And I was like, okay, this is the thing I want to do. I'm not interested in acting anymore. This is what I want to focus on. But you know, being around these commercials, I was like, well, I don't know how to do that. Um, I want I need to find out. Um, and so that's when I applied to USC and I got in. And then it became, you know, stretched out over 20 years, but kind of a kind of a logical jump to logical jump. Um a UPM, a unit production manager, um in commercials is is basically the person who hires everyone, uh, you know, pays everyone, gets everyone to the right place and all the things to the right place at the right time. Um, so it's it's it's one step below the line producer. It's similar to what a line producer does in features or or or uh TV. Um in commercials, the line producer more uh manages the clients, uh, the agency and the director. So the UPM is doing all the hands-on production um to get the show made. So that was my day job. And I did that for a long time. It was great, it was very flexible. I worked on really big productions. Um, so I was around uh, you know, the greatest crews and the greatest toys and learning all that practical stuff about production and about directing. And, you know, when I while I did that, I got up at four in the morning and I wrote, or I, you know, applied to, you know, did short films on the weekend and sent them to film festivals. And slowly but surely that's you know, that's where I ended up.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

I think there's an interesting, you know, I I a lot of people have directing ambitions and very few people actually pull them off because it's a really hard journey. And there's ways in through being a writer, through being an editor, through being an actor. Uh, and I see a number of people now coming up through being a UPM because really you're managing people, right? As a director, that's also a really big part of your job. Were you able to use some of those skills as UPM to help you in your beginning career as a director? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 20:22

Yeah. I mean, from the from the practical and the pragmatic, you know, I can look at a budget and I understand the creative values of that budget. I mean, I think a lot of a lot of creatives, directors, and writers don't realize that that a budget is a creative document, you know, and it says what we place value on. So I can look at a budget, and if we're over, I can say, well, great, I don't need that. Let's move that to here, solve, and still get the thing that I need for what I want to say and show on screen. That's helpful. You know, being able to speak that language to producers and have those conversations and you know, let them know that I'm not trying to waste anybody's time or money, you know, and I I value those things. That's important. Um in terms of managing people, yeah, I think so. Because I've, you know, I've always been in charge of people for for some reason or another, you know, telling people where to be, when to be, uh, how to be, how not to be. You know, I've had experience firing people, and that's no fun. Um I think all of those things, you know, the the thing about directing, as you said, is there are a million roots to it. And that's one of the reasons why every director is different, because all along the way they're learning different things that that um influence their filmmaking.

SPEAKER_00 21:49

I I'm always slightly conscious about a podcast hosted by two men with a female guest asking these sorts of questions, but I want to ask about a diversity question. So we had uh in Last season we had uh a Canadian actress who was trying to get into direct and talking about horrendous things that happened to her as an actress in terms of sex.

SPEAKER_04 22:10

Yeah, they get the end of the stick.

SPEAKER_00 22:12

And then moving across in direct and wanting to do things differently. Obviously, your acting career was a little bit less impressive than hers. But um, for you, given you've been in this for 20 years, how much has things changed for you? And how much has changed for women in this industry? And how do you feel about those changes?

SPEAKER_04 22:32

So I I feel that I can speak to this not just personally, but because I've been pretty um involved in advocating for um women in the industry since the beginning. Um, mostly because when I got into it, I was pretty shocked. Like, oh wait, what? Um I think that in the past couple of years there's been a lot of change and it's opened up a lot of opportunity. It has coincided with this um um intense need for content because of streamers. So I am curious to see if those uh progressive steps forward will will last, if they'll be sustainable. I hope that that in the time that this window of opportunity has opened, um, it's given women and people of color who have have since been excluded opportunities to start building careers so that when that constriction and contraction happens again, they can hang on. Um, we shall see. Um you know, from from an actor's perspective, I'm sure she's dealt with very different things than I have dealt with. Um look, abuse is about power, you know. So the less you have of it, the more susceptible to being a target of abuse that you are. Um as a filmmaker, and I think because I've always been in a hiring position, um, I have a lot of control over who I work with. So um honestly, the the the place where I have least control over who I work with is in television.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

And how do you use that control? Obviously, I assume you're not going around bullying people and abusing that power, but in terms of creating the environment that you want, hiring the people that you want, are you very conscious about you know in an industry? We talk about this a lot where people get put in leadership positions without any real training about how to manage and lead people. 100%. It's awful. So for you, do you sort of are you a very conscious leader and thinking about environments that you're creating?

SPEAKER_04 24:49

I mean, look, I didn't receive any training either. So I think I am, but who knows? I might be awful. And I'm sure there's some people who hate working for me, but uh I know that there are people who love working for me because we've worked together for years and years and years. Um, I will I am very mindful and intentional in my hiring and in communicating my expectations. Um, so for example, whenever I hire a head of a department, in the interview before the hiring, I will communicate my expectation that your department not be all white straight guys. Is that something you can do? Because I believe that's part of your job. If it's not, this isn't gonna work out. Um, it's important when you're in a leadership role to pass down those expectations to everyone so that they get enforced down the chain of command. Um, you know, I work really, really hard, as everybody does. Um, but I I feel that the way that I work sets the tone on set. And um, you know, I have very high expectations, but I think they're fair because they're communicated and they're clear. Um so I hope that answers the question a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 26:06

For sure. But I uh I have some, you know, I kind of want to stay on this for a few more minutes though. I'm interested in in what you talked about, you know, role models and maybe lack thereof. You're especially, you know, young, young in your career, early in your career, you don't see that many women being nominated for Academy Awards. Obviously, uh, thank God this year, you know, we have Jane Campion's beautiful film, but she was like the only the second time a woman's been uh first time a woman's been nominated for a second academy or whatever it is, crazy. Like, and and you have all of these really talented young women coming up uh who don't have the same role models of like I can do that thing, which is make the TV show or make the movies because there's not as many out there. And and yet you have to still climb the same mountain, in many cases, climb a much harder mountain because there's no one who's climbed it before you to help you take you to the top of the mountain. And I was just talking to a manager friend about the importance of uh mentoring and role models, because it's really hard in this business if you don't have that. Did you face did you face early difficulties, you know, because they're just there the play the playing field wasn't equal, the mentorships weren't equal, the you know what what extra weight was put on your journey, maybe because of sort of this inequity in early Hollywood?

SPEAKER_04 27:21

So it's hard to know because it was my journey, you know what I mean? Like I don't I don't know how uh uh uh an easier version would look. I don't know how a harder version would look. Um, I can say that, you know, the first time I had a mentor was in the last couple of years. And it made me really realize what I missed. Um, you know, I could have learned things faster. I could have not avoided mistakes, but maybe I could have avoided some mistakes in order to make more advanced mistakes sooner. You know, um it it it makes me a little bit sad that I didn't have any guidance like that. Um, but you can't I can't do anything about it. Um, I personally address that by constantly mentoring. Um, I think it's important. I know what a difference it's made to me since since I've had that um in my life. And look, I I think it's a real shame that we don't have apprenticeship programs, we don't have formal mentoring systems. I think um, you know, the responsibilities of the studio and networks are, and quite frankly, the unions, you know, they just look the other way. It's not their problem. But I do think that we could create a better industry if we had that in place. Something more formal and systemic.

SPEAKER_02 28:50

For sure, for sure. And and and you know, looking looking at your credits and looking at the time it took, it took, you know, it's it's you've been at this for 20 years and and you're succeeding. And and I do see this noticing lately this sort of general anxiety on social media where some people who are aspiring and others, it's not going as fast as they want it to. And it never does. Yeah, right. And back in our day, it was a 10 to 15 to 20 year journey, right? Just sort of the expectation was it was gonna take this long. But my my question to you is about, you know, was there ever a time in that, you know, 10 to 20 years, like let's just say 10 years before things were really beginning to gel for you and you made your first feature, uh, that maybe you thought this dream was never gonna happen.

SPEAKER_04 29:32

There's so many things in there to answer. Okay, first of all, I think something you touched on is very important, which is the expectation. Coming into this industry, you need to clearly set your expectation, right? So, unless you come from an incredible amount of money andor an industry family, you need to gauge those expectations more appropriately. You know, one thing that I think was very helpful is when I was in NYU studying to be an actor, one of my teachers, I remember this. She said, expect to be poor for 10 years. Expect to be poor for 10 years. And I was like, Yeah, okay, I can do that. And I did. And honestly, having that expectation is something that allowed me to succeed because I didn't have that anxiety. I I didn't know anybody. There's no reason I should succeed right away. It's gonna take a fucking long time. Um, and the other thing is uh no, there was no time that I thought of giving up because I didn't have anything else that I could do. You know, I don't, I'm not interested in anything else, I don't have skills to do anything else. Um, and frankly, of course, there were very upsetting setbacks, and of course there's anxiety. I was I was just having some yesterday. I was like, oh my God, I gotta get on set. I'm getting so bored. This January has been very annoying because of the COVID director juggle thing. But anyhow, um, so that never goes away. But you know, I always thought my expectations are what help me stay calm and stay grounded because I had, you know, my family didn't have any expectations of me. They're like, as long as you can feed yourself, you know, you're congratulations, you're an adult. Good job. Um, so there was no pressure there. And I thought, well, I'm doing that, I'm doing that, and I'm enjoying what else I'm doing, which is attempting to do something else. So I'm already succeeding. Um and the other thing that I would think frequently was, well, and I still think this, I still think this today, you know, I'm 45 and I'm like, well, you know, 25 years, it'll be all right. You know. Um, I I think setting correct expectations is what is what keeps you um from you know screaming and crying into your breakfast.

SPEAKER_00 31:59

The talking of screaming and crying into your breakfast. Um I haven't really asked you the sort of traditional question this podcast covers, which is the actual rejection and failure part directly. So so you're you know, you we've done a lot with writers and actors, but you must have been turned down for all sorts of things and then had going well that get cancelled. Give me a flavor of both. I mean, hopefully you'll have some hilarious anecdote about something terrible that happened to you. But give us give us an example of particular, particularly frustrating rejection, but then also a bit about how you boxing aside, how you deal with that.

SPEAKER_04 32:41

I mean, rejection is it's it's hard for I think people out of the industry to understand this, but rejection is standard. That is the standard. So once you accept that, everything else is bonus, you know. Um, a producer once said to me that no is neutral. Um if you receive a no, your life did not change dramatically from the way it was yesterday. Just nothing happened. You're not any worse off, you're not any more vulnerable or sick or hurt. You just didn't get the thing you wanted. So I think uh, you know, having a healthy relationship with rejection is something that is required to um maybe not succeed, but sustain in this industry and sustain in a way that is also healthy as a human. Um rejection is constant. I'm sure I've been rejected for multiple things this week. Luckily, now I have reps who who shout uh you know uh protect me from some of that, you know, they just don't tell me, uh, which is good. But look, you know, no, you said something earlier about uh when your career started to gel in your feature. I didn't get reps until a year after my second feature film. You know, that's that's not um I wouldn't say that's really gelling. I was still working as a UPM until after my second feature. Um so I mentioned that because within that is a lot of hope and and and crushed hopes, you know. You think, oh, my first feature, I got it made. It premiered at South Fi. We won an award there, IFC picked it up there for a theatrical. Here I go, and nothing happened. Nothing happened. And you know, you think, wait, I I did all the things. What what more am I supposed to do? I I did the things, and you just have to do it again.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

Yeah, so that's wide back time. You go to South by, which is uh you know an incredible experience. It was great for sorts of reasons, but particularly when you know you win an award there, yeah, and you it's a like a lot of these film festivals, it becomes a bit of a bubble because everybody's there and you so lots of people are coming up to you and congratulating you. Yeah, and it can be maybe easy to get carried away and think, right, well, I've done this, I've won this award, you know, I'm now about to rocket ship. Um so A, in the you know, while you're in Austin, probably enjoying a drink after winning your award, yeah. A do you did you think that? And then B, when you didn't quite rocket ship as quickly as you thought, how did you process that?

SPEAKER_04 35:51

Okay, so the experience of actually being there, you know, it's funny. I I don't know how other people experience, but I was actually quite overwhelmed. And I think I kind of shut down. Um, I remember in the party after our premiere, I was just kind of walking around like a zombie. I couldn't, it was too much, you know. I was like, I just I couldn't really process it. Um, I think, I think um, I don't know why, but it I I was just kind of overwhelmed. Um, it there was the first time where I watched my work with an audience and I was out of sync with their reception. You know, you can usually feel it, but I was so self-involved with everything that was going on inside of me. I couldn't, I couldn't feel how they were feeling. Um after that, you know, yeah, you take all the meetings and you you try, you know, and and it just I it wasn't getting traction. And I don't know that the good thing is there's not like a specific point. There's not a point where the industry sits you down and says, nope, you're not getting that thing you wanted. You know, so there's a it takes a lot of little rejections over time for you to realize, oh, I'm not getting that thing. And in the meantime, you just keep going, you know. Um you just keep going, you make other things, you keep hustling, you take meetings, you go out to drinks, you do all the things, and that gets back to the discipline of um working in this industry, you still have to go out and do the things when you feel like shit. I I I had a uh a manager say to me once, he was like, God, you're only so cheery when you pick up the phone. I'm like, I don't answer the phone when I'm in a shitty mood. That's not gonna help me. You know. So I don't know. You you have to you have to be a grown-up pretty quick in this business. You have to modulate your expectations, you have to, you know, compartmentalize and correctly address your emotions so you're not taking them out on the wrong people. Um, you know, you have to do lots of things that is also why I like this business.

SPEAKER_02 38:13

How how was the um the switch? Not that you've switched completely and you're no longer doing feature films and whatever, but you you started your career in features and one, you know, this award, you eventually do get traction. You know, it looks like you got booked on the purge, and then you have other things, you know, uh going for you, and you the sort of the TV machine starts starts opening up to you. And but it's it's a it's a slightly different type of directing going from features to TV. The the you have people that you that you need to talk to and you have other creative visions that are very in your in in in in the thing that you're making. Um and and how how did you adjust to that? And some people thrive in that environment, realizing, oh wait, actually, this is the thing that I'm really good at. But is it was it was it hard for you, easy for you, the move into TV? Are you happy in this new space?

SPEAKER_04 38:59

Well, here's the thing. I first of all, it took me ages to get into television. It took ages. And then the funny thing was, I booked my first interview. I booked it, I learned that I booked it before I got home from the interview. So I was like, gee, that should have been sending me out before, but you know, whatever. Um, so uh at the same point, at the same time, I'm not sure I would have been as successful in television had I started in it earlier. I mean, maybe I would have, who knows? But you're right. Directing television and directing film are entirely different. I would say directing pilots and and limited series gets closer to feature directing, but episodic uh television is is is very different. It's funny because early on I had a meeting and an executive said to me, Oh, I'm surprised you would want to do episodic. And I didn't understand what she meant. I was like, Well, of course I want to do episodic. That's how yes. And what she meant was, I don't see you as someone who fits in that, you know, day playing role. Um, you know, she's like, You're you're a filmmaker. What how that doesn't make sense? Um, but I've really enjoyed it. I'll tell you why. There's a couple of reasons. First of all, I think I've ended up on shows that have been very um useful to me learning while doing. Um, I I was both, I think two or three of the jobs that I've had, I was hired by producing directors, not by showrunners. Um, and I mentioned that because we're speaking more of the same language. They understand me and understand, probably understood what I was lacking and and and how they could help me succeed. And they gave it me, you know, and cared to. Um and the shows were not uh, they weren't, they were anthological. So I got to have more creative input. So so it was a bit of a baby step into episodic. In that time, I have learned and understood what my role is as an episodic director and have found ways to enjoy it. You know, for me, directing episodic is like a snack. You know, a movie is a meal and an episodic is a snack. You get to focus on one cool thing for a very short period of time. Um, and and the goal is different. The goal there is to make the best version of the showrunner's show that you can possibly make. And and that I think uh production managing has has helped uh in that kind of way, um, because I've always been on those big shows where the director is not really the one who's uh who's the final stop, you know. I've seen that dynamic before, so I understood how to work in that. Um and it it's if if you if you allow it to be easy, it's really quite fun.

SPEAKER_00 42:07

So quite a like like quite a few of our other guests, just by answering questions, you're you seem to be very good at giving advice to people broadly. Yeah, dropping lots of nuggets. Um now, unfortunately, we're we've reached the final question, but that is very much about advice. So I'd love to hear the answer to the question of if you could give a single piece of advice looking to enter the industry, and then I think in this case your bit of the industry, what would that advice be?

SPEAKER_04 42:41

Well, I think it'd be two things. One is about the setting expectations, um, you know, that will relieve so much pressure, you don't need to put it on yourself. Let the industry put that pressure on you, no. Um the other thing is I feel like we're very lucky to get to do these jobs. I mean, every day I cannot believe that I'm getting to do the thing that I love and someone pays me for it. It's it's really awesome. I've worked a lot of shitty jobs in my life. What we get to do is really awesome and it's important. Um so I think just having that perspective, it's a real privilege to be able to create culture, um, you know, regardless of how disposable it can be. I think that um it's important and and being mindful of that is is key to keeping yourself sane.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

Jen McGowan, director, boxer, and mentor, thank you very much for being part of the podcast.

SPEAKER_04 43:51

Thank you for having me. It was good fun.

SPEAKER_02 43:53

Thank you so much. And that's a wrap on this episode of Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss. As always, we want to thank James Launch for the amazing theme music.

SPEAKER_00 44:08

Before we sort of thank our wives and stuff, do you think anyone actually listens this far, or do they stop when the music comes back in?

SPEAKER_02 44:14

I think they normally stop after you mention your second and third podcast, that'd be my guess. Well, I haven't mentioned them yet, but that's why. Uh if you do want to reach out with us to us for criticisms, complaints, or praise, uh you can either reach out to us through the website or I am at nevslin on Twitter. And Dan, do you have an account?

SPEAKER_00 44:34

Not that anyone really cares about, so if you've got complaints about the show, go to NEVslin and feel free to air those. If you have praise or you want to pay us in some way for something, come to at Dan Rotstein. And have a great day.