Take 90 - Showrunner Eric Guggenheim, Miracle and Magnum P.I.

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for sure, dozens of unproduced scripts littering the floor.

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All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

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For every success, there is months, sometimes even years, of painful failure. This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default. That's the norm.

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You have to be able to persevere. Like everything in our business here, it hands the out. It all bounces off you.

SPEAKER_03 0:40

That process takes yours, that doesn't matter overnight. I was being told by my manager it's yours to lose. And I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking like, well, that's it for me. I blew my one big job. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one big job. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

Screaming into the Hollywood Abyss is brought to you by Scriptation. The Emmy Emmy Awards.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

It sounds awful when you say it. Let somebody with a more charming accent do this bit. Screaming into the Hollywood Abyss is brought to you by Scriptation, the Emmy Award-winning app for anyone that reads scripts. Makes notes, organise them into layers, and save hours of time by automatically transferring those notes into new script revisions. Sither listeners can get a free month of Scriptation by going to scriptation.com backslash scither. Now that's how you do it, Noah. Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. I am, as ever, your non-industry co-host, Dan Rutstein. And I am still in the industry.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

My name is Noah Evslin. On today's Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, I'm excited to introduce TV writer, producer, and showrunner Eric Guggenheim. In 2004, Eric exploded onto the Hollywood scene as the screenwriter of the Kurt Russell hockey movie Miracle. He then wrote on such shows as Parenthood, Hawaii 5.0, and Magnum PI, which he currently executive produces and showruns. Welcome, Eric.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

So it podcasts come out on a Thursday. This is a very rare weekend recording of the podcast. So Eric, why would somebody as successful as you choose to spend part of your Saturday morning talking about rejection, failure, and adversity?

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Honestly, uh during the week, it's just it's so I'm so busy, you know, and uh uh it's just the weekends are just easier um uh for me, especially, you know, in the morning. But uh um so yeah, I mean that's uh thank thank you actually for for doing this. I know you guys don't normally um do these on the weekend. So I appreciate you accommodating uh my crazy schedule.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Yeah, I mean, frankly, I'm happy to hear this bit of Schadenfreud. I'm happy to hear people's failure rejection stories, even on a weekend, because it inspires the rest of the weekend. Because obviously, this is all about how difficult the industry is, but then obviously how you turn that into success. So obviously, as always with these things. No, I read out your credits, you've done some amazing things. Tell us about the beginning of your career where things probably weren't quite going as smoothly, and where you started questioning whether this was the career that you wanted.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

Well, uh, you know, it's funny because uh, you know, I I actually got started very early. I was 23 when I sold my first project. I got very lucky uh very quickly. Um, I had I went to film school, you know, uh I wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do. I just knew that I wanted to work in in film and television. Um I I I wasn't sure what you know what role, you know, uh I wanted. I thought maybe uh I'll be an editor, I'll be a producer. And then uh towards the end of my senior year in college, I started writing. Um and and I started writing more and more after I graduated. And you know, within about, I think about 18 months of graduating college uh and and writing, writing features, also, you know, trying to break into television with my brother Mark, um I was you know fortunate enough to write a spec that um uh you know opened a lot of doors for me and put me in a lot of rooms. And uh off of that, I was able to sell a feature. And uh, you know, and all of a sudden I went from being an assistant uh on a desk uh in New York uh uh for a pretty big theater agent to overnight having you know a uh a career as a screenwriter. And uh uh for about the first, you know, I think about four years or so, um, I uh you know, I was working pretty steadily. And then uh, you know, I just I kind of, you know, uh, you know, the careers have ebbs and flows and peaks and valleys and all that. And then there was a period of about you know, four or five years where I barely worked. Um and uh uh, you know, I just I couldn't get anything going. I couldn't, uh, you know, the phone wasn't ringing. You know, I'd go up, go after open writing assignments, I wouldn't get them, I'd get close, I'd write a spec, it would go on weekend read, everyone would like it and want to meet, but you know, no one wanted to buy it.

SPEAKER_02 5:51

So um uh I I'm sorry, I don't even remember what the question was, and uh but um you you you basically answered it, but I uh you know you you brought you brought up your brother Mark, and obviously Mark Guggenheim has come on this show. So let's let's let's dig into this this unique family you have. Because for those who don't know, not only do you and Mark write screenplays, but you have a third brother who writes screenplays. And I know that Mark was a lawyer before he was a screenwriter. He went into that a little bit, but talk about the family dynamic at home, especially talk about your parents who, to their horror, at some point, one of the sons became a screenwriter, and then they're like, Well, at least the second son's probably gonna do a normal job in the third son, and then the second son became a screenwriter, then the third son became a screenwriter. What happened in the home to you know make you guys all decide that this was a career for you? Do you come from a family of writers? How did your parents respond? And then, you know, this is a podcast about you know failure, rejection, and diversity, but obviously at some point your parents realizes realize that their boys were a success. And talk and talk about that feeling as well.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Yeah. Um, yeah, so we um, you know, it's interesting. We, you know, no one in our family was uh, you know, you know, in the arts in any way. You know, our grandmother was, you know, an amateur artist, a very good one, a sculptor, um uh painter. But um, you know, we, you know, we we knew we didn't know anyone in the industry, but uh, you know, we we loved, you know, movies and television growing up. Um, our grandfather was a huge uh film fan. Um, and uh, you know, I remember him showing me Citizen Kane and Casablanca and uh Charlie Chaplin, and uh, you know, um we all we all um you know demonstrated you know some artistic ability uh you know early on. Um and uh um you know and and you know Mark Mark was a you know he was you know kind of like a born writer. He was a very gifted writer even from a you know from a young age. Um uh I you know I I didn't really write very much growing up. I didn't write short stories. I I did a lot of drawing. Um, but uh, you know, uh we were fed a steady diet of uh of movies and television. Um and uh, you know, um I it you know it's kind of crazy that you know our parents were you know supportive of us, you know, pursuing these kind of crazy dreams. Um they uh you know they they they didn't they never stood in our way. You know, no one ever said, well, you know, can you know go become an accountant or you know, you know, find a you know a normal, you know, a normal, you know, a normal job. Um so uh I, you know, it it it's it's amazing to me because uh, you know, I you know, I I I have I have a daughter now and and you know I I can't imagine her, you know, kind of going into this business. And uh I don't know how supportive I would be. Um, but our parents were. Um and uh, you know, like I said, you know, earlier, I I was lucky enough to, you know, uh, you know, get a little bit of success pretty early on. And I think it gave, you know, Mark, you know, the confidence uh to uh leave behind his law practice and uh you know and take a big swing. Um and uh, you know, David as well. Um and uh um yeah, it is I I I still kind of marvel over how we all just ended up doing this. Um it's it it's it's really it's wild.

SPEAKER_02 9:45

I you know, speaking of the relationship between your brothers, and I, you know, again, I'm not in your house. I don't know if you guys are close, if you hate each other, but I did notice that, you know, looking at your credits, that you don't mostly share any credits. And I would think, you know, you talked about the four or five fallow years where you were having trouble, and obviously your brothers have created shows and have been worked on shows. Has has there ever been a time where you felt like you wanted to call Mark or David and say, hey, I need some work and you can you help me get on the show? And or did they call you and say, Eric, this is my fallow years, I need some help. I mean, because it's your brother, you're gonna try to do your best to do whatever you can. But or have you kind of carefully navigated a career where you didn't need to work together? And or are you all planning on creating the Guggenheim super show together? And that opportunity just hasn't happened yet.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Uh, that would be fun. And Mark and I have uh spoken recently about, you know, trying to team up on something. But uh, you know, at the in the very beginning, Mark and I, you know, we're we were trying to break into television together as a writing team. And uh, you know, we we had written, you know, this is like the late 90s, and back then, you know, what you did was, you know, you you looked at, you know, a show that was on the air and you wrote a sample. So we did that. We did uh a law and order, we did a couple of picket fences. Um, and uh, you know, we, you know, we uh it ultimately, you know, we got, you know, we were able to, you know, get some representation off of that. We we got a manager and uh and we got uh hip pocketed at an agency. And we went on, you know, we went, you know, we took some meetings, but you know, nothing ever happened. Uh and then, you know, meanwhile, we were each separately working on our own stuff. And, you know, for you know, for some reason, you know, uh you know, people wanted to work with us individually and didn't want to work with us as a team. But um, you know, you you know, I I spoke, you know, briefly about this sort of four or five year period where you know nothing much was happening. You know, I would, you know, get like, you know, I did a production rewrite, you know, and you know, that was like three weeks, but then, you know, six, eight months would go by and and nothing. And uh, you know, I I'd been working, you know, uh at one point for about you know 10 years or so. Um, and Mark, you know, had really, you know, he was he had been writing in television for years, and he kept saying to me, you know, you should think about staffing up on a show. Uh, you know, I think you'd like it, you know, because it's, you know, you've been by yourself in a room, banging ahead, banging your head against the wall for 10 years. Um, you know, you might enjoy going into an office and and being among other writers. And he had a show uh that he co-created called Eli Stone on ABC. And at one point he asked me, you know, do you want to write a freelance? And I'm like, yeah, great. I mean, that that I mean, I love the show. I mean, um, I was I was uh even if he even if he hadn't worked on it, I would have been a big fan of the show. Um so uh, you know, he brought me in, and that was my first experience in a writer's room. I mean, I had literally, I had never been in a writer's room before, not not even as a guest of someone. It I felt like such a schmuck on day one. Like it took me an hour to figure out like who the person was sitting at their laptop typing and taking notes, like I and not speaking. You know, I had no idea. Like he didn't like, I should have asked some questions like what can I expect? But, you know, um, yeah, it took me like you know an hour to figure out, oh, that that person must be an assistant of some kind. Um, and their job is to just capture everything that's uh being pitched in the room. But uh so anyway, um, you know, I I I was in the room, I was in the Eli Stone room for about three days and the show got canceled. And uh they actually they wouldn't pay me for the script. They they wanted me to write the script, like the studio, like they wouldn't pay me unless I wrote the script, even though the show was canceled. So um, and it was actually it was actually a co-write. Um, so I ended up uh co-writing a script. Um, but honestly, just those three days in the room, I had I had so much fun. It was great, you know. It was it was a great, it was a great group on that show. And then off of that, I decided, you know, I'm gonna, I I think I I think I want to do this. I think I want to join a writing staff. And then, you know, I I went uh I I I feel like you know that this answer is now sort of like, you know, like I'm it's going off track. The the question you asked was about uh, you know, if Mark, you know, David and I um had, you know, ever worked on anything or had ever, you know, helped each other out. We have helped each other out in the sense that, hey, I'm really stuck on this story or this idea. You know, can we get on the phone and and talk about it? But as far as like, hey, can you, you know, can you call this person or that person? I yeah, I don't, I don't think that's really ever happened. Um, you know, I because I I I think we've all been pretty fortunate and and when we've we've we've gotten lucky um and and we've been able to, you know, all kind of work steadily for for a long period of time.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

I think you should lean heavily into it and three of you get together, pitch a procedural set in a New York museum or art gallery uh and go go to full Guggenheim. Um so I just want to ask a question about we've we've had this before with somebody where they and no always gets upset with them when this happens, when someone has instant success at the beginning of their career where they haven't earned it yet, as it were. Um because obviously a lot of people go through, you know, they're that person who's not allowed to speak in the room, you know, for a few years before they finally make it up to the top. But obviously, you know, you you you had your I can't really use home run for a hockey movie, but you you had your uh your big hit early. Um did that distort your perspective of what this industry's like, as in, oh, maybe it's easy, and then you then started realizing a bit later that perhaps it's not quite that easy.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

No, no, and and when by the time that movie came out, I was already pretty cynical. I that movie came out in night in 2004. My I for I sold my first project in 1997. So uh, you know, I had you know seven years of you know of of working and you know, uh, you know, rejection. Um, I mean, I I'd I'd been earning, you know, a you know, a decent living. I was, you know, I I um you know was able to quit my job as an assistant and immediately start working. And, you know, I you know, I would write one thing and then that would lead to, you know, uh an assignment at another studio. And then, you know, I'd sell, I'd sell a pilot. Um, you know, nothing, but nothing was getting made, you know, uh, you know, in the case of Miracle, you know, I took that out as a pitch, you know, I sold it, uh, I wrote it and then was, you know, very quickly replaced, um, which, you know, happens, you know, in in in the feature uh business. Um, and then that just happened to coincide with uh you know this really sort of cold spell that I was having, um, you know, as as a writer. And uh, you know, I I I did you know have have instant success. Um, but at the same time, I I I knew enough to know that I really I I wasn't in in a lot of ways prepared for it. Um and I I hadn't I didn't I hadn't written that much. You know, I I had I had real written one spec um and it got me in a whole bunch of rooms and uh you know and it it launched my career, but you know, I I you know I was just 23 years old. I didn't really know, you know, uh, you know, how to uh you know um how to how to do this. And um, you know, I uh I I I spent a lot of time, you know, just trying to, you know, you know, learn my craft, honestly, and get stronger as a writer. And you know, I remember there were, you know, you know, my agent at the time would say, you know, you need to stack deals. You need to, you know, you, you know, you got one thing, you know, you need to start booking other other gigs, you know, and you know, basically strike while the iron's hot. And I I actually said, I I don't want to do that because I I just want to, you know, focus on one thing, do a great job. And uh, you know, and and I kind of, you know, I I uh you know, I knew enough to know that, you know, you you can, you know, you can have instant success and then you know, within five years, you could be out of the business. I think the average, you know, uh career for a writer, I I read this once, I think the the WGA had had put this out, it's like eight years, like that's the average. And I didn't want to be one of those people. I I wanted to have like a career with some longevity. And I've been fortunate enough now, you know, that I've been doing this for uh, you know, you know, 25 years. Um so um, you know, I uh, you know, like I said, by the time you know Miracle came out, you know, I I you know, I was already um, you know, I didn't have any, you know, sort of, you know, my my view, you know, wasn't distorted at all. Um, you know, I I um, you know, I had had you know success and failure, you know, uh, you know, uh leading up uh you know to that point. You know, and then the movie came out and you know, it got me in a few more rooms. And, you know, once again, I was, you know, being considered for, you know, different open writing assignments. I would go in, you know, I would, you know, spend two weeks, you know, put together a pitch, you know, really kind of break out the whole movie, you know, and then not get hired. They would go with somebody else and you know, for whatever reason. And and this happened, you know, uh, like I said, for about four or five years, you know. Um, you know, and then I uh, you know, um, and then and then, you know, all of a sudden, you know, it's it's so strange because then like all of a sudden, you know, uh, you know, a few years, you know, it all of a sudden, like, you know, you get one thing and then, you know, you suddenly get momentum again. And uh, and that's that's what happened to me. I sold a pilot, and that pilot led to, you know, a mini-series, and then I sold another pilot. And then um that was around the time that uh, you know, I did this freelance, you know, for your life stone and decided that I wanted to staff up.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

Interesting. So as an outsider, one of the things I always find fascinating, this whole thing about features and writers being replaced. So just a very small question that I feel I must know the answer to now is did you were you allowed to go to the premiere of Europe?

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Yeah, yeah, I was allowed to go to the premiere. Um, you know, you it, you know, contractually they have to invite you, you know, even if they hate you, you know, you you you're guaranteed two tickets. Um, but uh, you know, yeah, I uh you know, and at that point I had seen the movie a couple of times, um, you know, beforehand. But uh, but yeah, it is it is a strange, you know, experience. I mean, it's you know, and it's obvious it's not uncommon, you know, in features. Um, you know, it, you know, you'll, you know, you'll you'll you know, you'll spend months working on something, you know, you'll take it out, you'll sell it. Um, and then they just want to go, you know, they, you know, for whatever reason, I mean, there's so many different reasons why, you know, someone's replaced. Um, you know, in my case, you know, that they just uh the script wasn't coming along as uh as fast, I think, as they wanted it to. And uh there was a lot of momentum behind that project. And and I had zero credits at that point. I I had a lot of, you know, credits, you know, like unproduced, like stuff I had sold that didn't get made, but you know, nothing that had been nothing that had been made. So um, you know, uh I uh, you know, and and uh you know and and and and it's hard, you know, when when that happens. And uh, you know, it uh but you know, I I tried, you know, throughout it all, I, you know, I tried to stay, you know, positive and you know, and I I, you know, my my you know, my agents at the time were, you know, uh, you know, really supportive and you know, um, and uh, you know, and and uh, you know, when when that happens, you know, the the the only thing you can do, I feel at that point is you you gotta write something, you gotta, you know, you gotta move on, you gotta write that next thing. And uh and you know, and then you know, you can, you know, you can gain that momentum back. Um, and uh, you know, I uh I I think if I hadn't had you know some success and failures, you know, sort of leading up to the premiere of that movie, you know, maybe I wouldn't have known that. But, you know, um uh so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

You made a really interesting point in the previous answer about you wanted rather than just sort of stacking up projects, you wanted to go and learn your craft. And we've talked about this a lot. A lot of times we've asked people for advice, and they say to aspiring writers, just write. You know, every script you write, whether anyone sees it or not, just makes you a better writer. So possibly a harder question to answer. But at what point did you feel comfortable that you were actually a good writer? So, you know, when did you feel like you'd not maybe mastered the craft, but you felt comfortable that you'd achieved that part of it and you felt that you could continue working because you actually had a proper foundation?

SPEAKER_00 23:44

Uh honestly, uh look, I'll be completely honest here. I, you know, I I still lack confidence. You know, I, you know, I'm sure a lot of people have uh, you know, talked about imposter syndrome on this show. I'm sure that that's come up. Uh, you know, I suffer from that, you know, quite a bit. Um, and uh, you know, I I I I still feel like I have, you know, like I haven't quite mastered it. And I don't, I don't know that I that I'll ever, you know, get there. Um, and for a long time it actually, you know, kind of bothered me, you know, that I uh, you know, that I I uh you know, I I would I would beat myself up uh you know quite a bit over, you know, a script that wasn't coming together. Um, you know, I uh you know, and then eventually I just you know kind of you know accepted like, look, this is this is my process. And uh, you know, and you know, I I do think that that there is you know some danger in becoming a little bit you know too comfortable and too confident. And uh, you know, it uh you know, I I I mean I really do, you know, believe that. Um I have, you know, I I think in the past couple of years I've gotten more comfortable with um, you know, uh uh it took me a long time to to kind of admit this. And uh, you know, just you know, through, you know, with years of therapy, I kind of got there, you know, I I kind of realized I I am pretty good at this. Like I I you know, I said to my therapist, I think about a year ago, like I'm I think I'm a pretty good showrunner. Uh, you know, and it took me a took me a while to get there. Um, and uh, you know, it it's uh, but you know, that imposter syndrome is, you know, it's a very real thing. I think a lot of writers suffer from it. You know, I certainly do. And uh, you know, and and there's a lot of, you know, uh, you know, I I feel like I kind of live in constant fear that, you know, I'm gonna be, you know, discovered and you know, that they're gonna realize, you know, uh that I just I just don't belong here.

SPEAKER_02 25:53

Um and uh um so so yeah, uh I I I want to stay on the subject uh uh of your therapist because we've had 80, what, 81 guests or something on the show now, and I would say half of them have mentioned that they're in therapy, they've talked to their therapist, and the other half probably are in therapy and just didn't mention it on the podcast. And if this was a podcast about banking or private equity or whatever, I don't think anyone would ever mention that they were in therapy, whether they were in therapy or not. But I would suspect that more writers are in therapy than in other careers. And can we talk a little bit about why that is the necessity of writers going into therapy? Is it the job or is it the personality of somebody who becomes a writer who more gravitates towards, you know, just needing someone to talk some of the stuff out with uh because it's it's it's painful.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

Yeah. No, I think it's I think it's probably a combination of things. Um, you know, I think it's both the job and then, yeah, it is a little bit, you know, just that that writer's, you know, personality. A lot of writers are, at least a lot of writers that I know are, you know, pretty anxious, you know, pretty neurotic. Um, you know, and uh but but it is it is a strange phenomenon. I I I wonder, I wonder actually if if there's actually been you know some study. Uh there probably has, you know, someone's probably written a paper about it. But uh, you know, it uh it is it is kind of fascinating. I I would say that, you know, of all the writers I know, I I think certainly over 50%, you know, are are in therapy. Um and uh, you know, it's um uh it it you know, I I you know I know for me that you know it's uh you know it's something that you know is is is an absolute necessity. I I feel like I I talk a lot about my job, you know, in in therapy, you know, and uh, you know, uh to the point where like I'll like say to my therapist, like, are you are you bored, you know, by this? Like, you know, I like as if it's my job to like entertain him, you know. But you know, uh, I I do feel like I I I spent a lot of time just uh talking about my job uh you know in therapy. And um it it's a very uh and I think actually as the higher up you go, like in the hierarchy of writers, you know, you'll see more showrunners, I think, in therapy, um, you know, than not. That it's probably well over 50% would be, you know, my guess. Um, because it is just, you know, it's it's it's a very high stress job. And um, you know, and uh, you know, as you, you know, once you become a showrunner, it's like, you know, there there's, you know, there, there's obviously there's fewer showrunners than there are, you know, writers on staff. And, you know, you you kind of um, you know, uh, it, you know, it's hard to uh it's hard sometimes to talk about, you know, some of the you know, the pressure, you know, with with other writers because, you know, um, you know, they they just don't necessarily they don't have the same job that you do. Um, but I will talk to other showrunners, you know, there's there's there's definitely some a lot of you know support there. Um it's fun, it it's I mean, I I I feel like I'm I and I do this a lot. I I'm sort of going like off on a on a tangent here, but um, you know, I I you know I I I do talk to a lot of other showrunners, you know, and sometimes it's it's ones that, you know, uh I don't even uh you know, I don't even know very well. But you know, we we each talk about you know the job and just how hard it is. Um but uh I'm I'm I'm desperately trying to circle back to you know your question, which is why, you know, there are just more writers. I I honestly I don't know the answer to that. Um, you know, I I I don't, but thank God, you know, the writers guild has you know a very generous health plan um and and and and covers uh therapy. Uh because wow, I I can only imagine where we'd all be, you know, uh, you know, without it.

SPEAKER_02 30:15

Um I I think I can speak for Dan, by the way. When we I can say we both love tangents, you can go on tangents. Tangents sometimes get at some really juicy, you know, personal anecdotes. But uh so you know, this kind of relates to your tangent, relates to the question I just asked. Uh, but I want to I want to start it by saying that whether or not you know this, you have a reputation for being a very nice show runner. I know a lot of people who work for you and with you. So, like they Eric's, you all you hear is Eric is great, Eric is great, Eric is great from a lot of people. So if you're here for one person, they're probably beholden to you. If you're here from six, it's probably the truth. So you you and I have had to, you know, uh well, you you you've worked with some big personalities, let's just say. Uh, has that shaped how you run a room? Has that shaped some of the conversations you have in therapy? Like how like how do you, you know, forge your own path? How do you decide that I want to be a certain type of showrunner? And and you know, Dan, Dan normally asked the leadership questions. I normally ask the writer-related questions, but I feel like we're reversing on this one. Talk a little bit about your leadership style and was it forged in fire? Like, how did you become the showrunner that you are today?

SPEAKER_00 31:23

Um, well, I I've only ever worked for two showrunners. Um, and uh they both had, you know, very different personalities, very different, you know, managerial styles, uh, very uh, you know, their process, you know, of breaking story and writing, you know, was very different. Um, and they're both, you know, uh, you know, huge showrunners, both uh, you know, uh, you know, really, you know, exceptionally good, you know, at their job. And I kind of, you know, picked from both of them. I saw, you know, uh, you know, what what um, you know, so you know, my sort of like, I guess like, you know, just approach is to uh I've, you know, you do tend to, you know, uh, you know, you you you learn from you know the the showrunners that you that you work under. Yeah, in my case, yeah, there were two. They were both, you know, uh incredibly successful, uh, very both very good showrunners, um, just both very different styles. And for me, I just I I chose, you know, I I kind of I borrow from both of them, you know, and uh, you know, uh there's, you know, I I and also, you know, you you you do learn a lot from, you know, the the other writers that you're on staff with, you know. Um, you know, and I, you know, um, I spent four years on a on a show that uh, you know, had some, you know, just uh extraordinary, it was like a murderer's row of of writers. And, you know, a few of them had run shows before and you know, would, you know, be very open about, you know, talking about it and uh about their experiences and what they learned. And I I just, you know, I I you know, I've I've been doing this now. I've been working in television for, I was thinking about this actually this morning, right before the podcast, for 14 straight television seasons. And uh half of those have been either running or co-running a show. So the first seven, you know, I was just, you know, I'd worked for two shown showrunners and I was just soaking up, you know, everything. And uh, and that just uh, you know, when when I, you know, finally, you know, got the job that that that I have, you know, I um, you know, I I had seen kind of, you know, you know, what works and what doesn't. And uh, you know, it um uh you know, it really uh, you know, it it uh you know, I I I now I feel like I'm really rambling, you know, without a point. But uh, you know, um, you know, another thing that that uh you know, just you know, thank God you said, you know, I'm free to go off on a tangent. You know, one thing that happened to me, I don't know if you'll find this interesting or not, but after third season of Magnum, I actually quit the show. Um, I quit for about five days. And um uh and and there were all there were there were you know a few reasons why, you know, just personal reasons, uh, why I felt like I I had to step away. And um, you know, uh after you know five days of of of thinking about it, um, you know, I I said, okay, I'll I'll I'll go back. But you know, CBS was uh uh really, they were amazing, they were very supportive. And one thing that they do for their showrunners is they offer the services of an executive coach and uh to all of them. And I uh they said, you know, do you want to, you know, do you want one? And uh and I said, sure, you know, I'll I'll it's free, right? You know, I'll give it a I'll I'll give it a shot. And uh I worked with an executive coach who uh you know also you know kind of helped me um and and gave me some, you know, a lot of uh, you know, uh I, you know, it was it that was like therapy too, you know, I got I would, you know, bring, you know, bring a problem to him and you know, we would talk out like, you know, how to how to solve it, you know. And uh, you know, I um I mean I I you know again, like I really just I I you know I I try very hard to, you know, uh, you know, still kind of be like a student and and and and and try and learn. And I'll also spend a lot of time just, you know, when something goes wrong and and frequently, as you know, no, um I'm sure you know this very well, it's things go wrong on a television show all the time. And you know, when things go wrong, um, you know, I I always like try and spend a little bit of time thinking about, you know, why something went wrong and you know how to just avoid that problem, you know, in the future and and just and try as much as possible just to to to learn from you know uh from my mistakes. And um again, you know, I I don't even remember what the question was.

SPEAKER_01 36:25

That executive coach thing is is fascinating. Um one thing we've definitely talked about a lot on the podcast is how the industry is not it doesn't seem to run itself like a proper business in terms of how it treats people and the skills you need to show to be promoted and so on. So the fact they're offering the executive coach, dare I say it's probably more because of things that have gone wrong than than proactively thinking it's a great idea, but it does sound like uh exactly the right thing because a lot of big companies where there's millions of dollars at stake offer their senior team executive coaching because people need it. So I'm sort of pleased to hear it exists. I'd love to have been there when they decided to first do that and how it came about. Um, we've talked a lot about a part. I want to talk about the you the future.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

So, you know, albeit now quite a long time ago, you know, you started with a feature and then you ended up in rooms, and despite the show being cancelled and you weirdly having to write a script for no real reason in the way these things work, and then you went on to obviously, you know, do a lot of TV and now you've reached the the top of that. Going forward, in terms of sort of career fulfillment, but also I guess personal fulfillment, what what do you what do you need to to complete? You know, you've got past the eight years, so you've you're you're a success in uh average WGA terms, but what do you need to complete? Do you want to is it you need a a movie where you actually stay on all the way through till the end? Is it uh maybe a different type of TV show, which is maybe a you know a real personal project that you want to see uh achieved? Um is it you know, do you want to go off and do novels or comics? You know, what is it that you need next to to complete your own arc?

SPEAKER_00 38:21

I you know, look, I I I love working in television. Um, and uh I you know, I I would like to, you know, uh, you know, I I I've been writing, I guess, you know, uh, you know, if you want to just you know put 5-0 and Magnum, you know, in a certain category, you know, procedurals, you know, I've I've been, you know, doing that for, you know, uh, you know, 10 years now. Uh, you know, the show that I wrote on before, you know, that that I wrote on for four years was not a procedural. Um, you know, it was it was a family drama, you know, with no real sort of story engine. I I'd like to get back to that, you know, uh a little bit more. I mean, you know, one of one of the things about, you know, 5-0 that I I really loved, you know, uh, you know, and and I'm sure, you know, Noah can speak to this as well, was that in in a lot of ways it was like a family drama, you know, and uh, you know, but you still had to service, you know, that that procedural, you know, side of the show, you know, because that's what, you know, that's what it was. Um, you know, and and you know, Magnum, it's it's the same way. It's it's uh, you know, we we still have to do that case of the week. And uh, you know, and and and it's almost like, you know, the least important part of the show. Um, but you know, it's still, you know, it it's you know, it still has to be interesting and it still has to feel fresh and it still has to have great turns. Um, and you know, it it can really um, you know, working on a procedural can be a lot of fun, but it's like, you know, but it's also like, you know, it's like solving a math problem every week, like a really hard math problem, you know. And uh, you know, it it would be, you know, great to, you know, uh, you know, to to just try something else. Um, I think I'm also just after, you know, you know, uh, like I said, like 14 years of of this and and you know, being on shows that do, you know, 20 or 25 even, you know, episodes, you know, I am kind of, you know, ready to, you know, do something that's more like, you know, 10 episodes, you know, and uh um, and and and sort of uh, you know, network television is just, you know, it is such a grind, you know. Um, you know, Magnum right now, we're we're cross-boarding 14 out of 20 episodes and we shoot six and a half days. And it's it's it's it's a brutal schedule. And um, you know, I I would love to, you know, just you know, keep working in television, you know, do something that's not so procedural based and and also, you know, uh, you know, you know, have just a little bit more time, you know, to to break story and uh and and to go down, you know, you know, you you're under such intense deadlines on on a network show um that you know you you don't have a whole lot of time to you know go down too many blind alleys, you know. And uh so I think, you know, I mean it's it's a long-winded answer, but I uh I would I would I would I'd like to be on a show where I you know I just have a little bit more time, you know, to break story and uh where you know you know we don't have to crank out, you know, 20 episodes or 22, and you know, you can just focus on you know 10 or 12. Um, you know, I I and I talk to a lot of network writers, you know, uh about this, and they're all would love to, you know, move into the streaming space.

SPEAKER_02 41:59

We're getting to the time of the podcast where we normally ask our last question, but I want to sneak in one more question before we get there, which is uh, you know, you mentioned the concept of a family drama, you know, and yes, the I I know that for sure on Hawaii 500, the importance of the family element. But I want to talk about the family, you know, the side of things behind behind the scenes that that these are families that you've worked on the Magnum Hawaii 500 family for a long time. And you had an interesting situation where you found out somewhat unexpectedly, I think, if I if if I'm right, uh correcting having heard the story, that Magnum was canceled. Uh and and then, you know, as many people know, and as you know, I can say here, you you got you got picked up again by a different network on NBC and you're gonna you're still going. But can you talk about that 30 minutes where you get the phone call? Probably you directly, your show is canceled. Who do you talk to next? How do you navigate telling a lot of people that suddenly, unexpectedly, they are not gonna have the paychecks that they were expecting and they all have to find new work? And then then, of course, the good news that it was saved, uh, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

I uh the the the cancellation, you know, first of all, came as a real surprise, you know, to me, even though, you know, in retrospect, I I really should have seen it coming. And people were kind of like warning me that, you know, you guys might not come back. But I just I didn't, whatever, I didn't believe it so much so that when I when I got that phone call, um, I was actually in a in a Zoom with some of the other writers. We were talking about season five, and we've been talking about season five for a few days, and I'd been working on season five for you know about four weeks, you know, just on my own. Um and uh, you know, I I hopped off the Zoom, you know, got the news. Um, and then I I got back on the Zoom, you know, gathered everyone as quickly as I could, and I broke the news. And it's uh, you know, it's awful. I mean, it it it it does, you know, it feels like, you know, I guess, you know, like like someone has died, you know, and then you have to start, you know, uh, you know, making all these. you know, calls and breaking the news to people. And it's it's it's the worst kind of uh you know phone call, you know, that that that that you can make. Um, you know, especially like, you know, on on Magnum, which was, it was a very, you know, tight group, you know, and that that's like one of the worst things I, you know, I think, or I mean, sometimes it can be a good thing, but when a show gets canceled, like all of a sudden, you know, this family that you've had, you know, breaks up. And it's really sad. And that's like, I think actually for me, like when the show got canceled, that was the worst, that was the worst part of it, you know, was uh, you know, I I was working with people that I genuinely liked in a cast that I genuinely liked. And all of a sudden it's gone. And uh I, you know, for me at least I, you know, I was focused more on that than like, you know, the loss of you know security and a paycheck and you know the uh you know the ability to continue you know telling stories. I mean losing all that sucked too but worst of all was you know thinking that uh I wasn't going to get to you know work with with these people anymore um or at least not all of them you know um but uh you know it uh I I still can't believe that we actually you know you know cheated death and and that we actually did come back. You know it it's it's uh you know it's a rare thing you know in our business and and our you know and we consider ourselves incredibly fortunate that uh that you know NBC came in and and uh you know and rescued us and uh and that we get to keep doing this and that we keep get to keep doing it together you know um I mean it I I kind of joke sometimes that it's like you know um it it that you know uh there's probably a lot of shows that you know it's they should be canceled and then brought back because it really does it makes you appreciate um what you have even more not not that you know people didn't everyone did but it really does make you appreciate each other and and and your and your coworkers and uh um you know I I you know I'm I'm I'm thrilled that you know NBC you know brought the show back and we did lose people you know I mean you mentioned Mike you know he's he's a great guy and you know we actually lost a couple of writers you know during that six week period that would that we were that we were canceled and and we lost a couple of department heads that I was close with and uh and that was hard um but but enough people stuck around and uh that um you know we were we were able to move forward and and uh you know thankfully I didn't have to you know crew up uh again and and you know find a whole bunch of writers and um you know uh it it uh it was we were we were pretty fortunate.

SPEAKER_01 46:52

And presumably making the we're back phone call was as much fun as the we're cancel phone call was terrible.

SPEAKER_00 47:03

Yeah. Well you know it it's the honestly the effort to bring the show back started literally within five minutes of being canceled like I was on with John Davis who's one of our EPs and he's like you know listen don't don't take another job don't sign another deal let's try to save this like uh let me do what I do and uh you know and and and let's you know I I let's let's find another home for this like I I don't want to give up and uh you know and that started this like kind of four to six week process of bringing the show back and you know we were given a a a budget number that we had to hit you know before they would they they would agree to pick up uh the show um so you know and and very quickly you know it got out that we were trying to save the show so I there was a constant stream of phone calls and texts and emails every day for about six weeks you know what do you know what do you hear? You know what can you tell me? And uh you know I didn't I didn't I I really tried as much as possible to play things close to the vest because I really didn't want to get anyone's hopes up. Because I also felt like you know I was so optimistic that the show was coming back and people would ask me you know is the show coming back and I'd be like this is before we were canceled and I'd be like I feel really good about our chances and then we were canceled. So then you know when when you know this effort to bring the show back you know uh started uh and everyone was asking me are we gonna come back I really didn't want to you know tell them like what I knew like I really played things close to the vest. Um and uh you know I also like there because there were people who would call and be like you know I have a I have another offer you know to to go on another show but I want to stay with Magnum but you know if if if you know if we're not gonna like I don't know what to do. That those those conversations were hard because it's like well I don't want to lose you if we come back at the same time I don't I don't want to stand in your way. So I just my I took a the my policy was just here's what I know uh I I we're doing our best you know uh but you you're gonna have to make that decision for yourself. If we come back I would love nothing more than for you to be there but I I can make this decision for you. And uh but then you know once it it it became clear you know uh that uh that we were coming back you know definitely you know getting on the phone with you know everyone and and sending out you know uh texts and emails and just seeing the response it it was amazing it it was it was such a great feeling um everyone was so excited you know because I I think we all genuinely enjoy working on the show we you know and that's not always the case and but you know we have a show that we we enjoy writing we enjoy producing and uh and more than that you know I we really enjoy working with each other so um you know uh again I I I think people were certainly happy to hear that that that they were gonna you know have a job for another season but I think also people were genuinely thrilled that you know this this family you know that that noah mentioned got to you know stay together um so it it it was a really special thing right I'm glad I'll now ask that extra question that's fascinating um so unfortunately we've reached the last question of the podcast as often happens on podcasts and it's the same question we ask every guest which is if you could give a single piece of advice to somebody looking to enter the industry what would that piece of advice be um I you know I'm gonna give a piece of advice but it it it's I'm sure you've gotten this answer you what do you say this is the 80 81 podcast you know you probably I'd you've probably gotten this answer like 75 at least out of 81 times yeah and and and Dan you said it earlier you you have to write you know you have to you have to write you have to find your voice be true to your voice um you know uh you uh you know you also have to you also have to read you know you have to read a lot of scripts too you know I would I would you know encourage people to you know to do that as well and uh you know it's it is a it it it it's definitely it it it is a it is a hard job um and and know that going in and uh you know and it's a craft and you really have to work at it you know you have to you know you have to write sometimes you know 10 scripts you know before the you know you finally sort of break through. In my case I wrote one script you know broke through and then had to learn how to do it. And uh you know and um I was almost like sort of you know paid to you know learn how to write but uh you know just you know keep writing and uh you know and find your voice and and and and stay true to that. And um you know I'm I'm sorry it it's not I mean I like I said I'm I'm sure a lot of people given the same advice it it's almost a cliche at this point but but it's a it's a cliche because it's true.

SPEAKER_01 52:29

Yeah super thank you very much. I think actually only three people have given that piece of advice uh but it still remains an excellent piece of advice. But um uh Eric Guggenheim who started with a career miracle and then rose to the top of TV thank you very much indeed for coming on our podcast.

SPEAKER_00 52:45

Well thanks for having me this is a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_02 52:48

Thanks, Eric Well that's a wrap on this episode of Screaming to the Hollywood Abyss as always is this episode was brought to you by Scriptation the screen writing and annotation software that at the very least has made my life easier and will make your life easier as well. We'd like to thank our wives who put up with us recording these episodes in our offices and basements and closets and bathrooms and anywhere we can get a little space to record an interview and of course we want to thank James who provided us with a great intro and outro music.

SPEAKER_01 53:27

If you want to find us on social media you can find Noah at NEVslyn on Twitter tweeting a variety of writer based nonsense and some terrible puns and occasionally begging for sponsorship. If you want more refined tweets mostly about football and whiskey you can find me at Dan Rutstein if you're interested in buying a copy of Scriptation if you go to www.scriptation.com backslash sither S I T H A you will receive a special discount. Thank you very much for listening as always we appreciate you please give us any feedback mostly positive stuff about me and we will see you next week and if you do say a negative thing about Dan there is a chance I might buy you a free copy of scriptation.