Take 110 - Ashley Michel Hoban - Marco Polo, Girl from Plainville

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for sure, dozens of unproduced scripts littering the floor.

SPEAKER_06 0:13

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

For every success, there is sometimes even years old. Failure.

SPEAKER_05 0:27

This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is like everything in our business here.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

I was being told by my manager it's yours to lose. And I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking like, well, that's it for me. I do my one-big shot. What I've realized with that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Screaming into the Hollywood Abyss is brought to you by Scriptation, the Emmy Award-winning app that instantly transfers your notes into new drafts in seconds. Scriptation allows you to digitally mark up scripts, separate notes into layers, track changes across revisions, and so much more. Insert Noah saying something nice about scriptation.

SPEAKER_06 1:20

Dan, I I think this is where they actually want me to talk about how much I love it. And I do love it, it's great. Its collating function transformed me from the messiest writer in Hollywood to, well, ever so slightly less messy. My wife might have other things to say about that. Sitha listeners can get a free month of scriptation by going to scriptation.com backslash scitha.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

And for those of you who don't understand slightly drawly American accents, that's scriptation.com backslash S-I-T-H-A. Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. I am as ever your non-entertainment co-host, Dan Rutstein.

SPEAKER_06 2:10

And I am your still in the entertainment business co-host, Noah Evelsn. On today's podcast, I'm thrilled to introduce TV writer, showrunner, and executive producer, Ashley Michael Hobin, who's written on such shows as Happy, the girl from Plainville, and Dr. Death, which he's currently now the showrunner of. Season two of Dr. Death premieres on Peacock today. Welcome, Ashley. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 2:35

Today.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

Obviously, not you know, this is a rejection, failure, and adversity podcast, uh, and we will go deep as we always do. But just because there's a show coming out tonight, or today, depending on uh when you watch television, um, let at least let's stall let's talk about that briefly before we get into follows. Like tell us about sort of the show, but also how you got to the show.

SPEAKER_04 3:05

Yes, so I mean we can we don't know yet. This also might be uh precursor to another failure story um that the show is coming out tonight. You know, you never know what how people are gonna take it. But um, so I worked on season one uh under Patrick McManus, who was running that show and created that created the the show for the first season. And um when we got, we were kind of you know setting up what the second season was going to be, this story really spoke to me. And Patrick is very busy and working on a lot of things. And he had um been in France actually. He was in this in France with his family for a year. His wife was doing um her master's in social work there. So he was like, you know, do you wanna do you want to take this over? And I was I was I said, let me think about it. No, I immediately said, absolutely, I've been really, you know, this has been this has been the goal of my life, and I I I I'm still kind of impeaching myself that I get to do it, to be honest.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

So we had uh Patrick on this podcast. Uh yeah, and his story is he had a good failure story. Like there was there was I think you know, flying half around the world to get away from his wife, not in a not in a good way, but yes, yes, sleeping in offices, like it was it was real. Um and I think um I like these stories where uh somebody uh gets somebody moves aside and gives somebody else sort of a chance to to showrun. Um when uh when you get obviously showrunning is a huge achievement and it's a great opportunity, when it's a show you've already been on and the person who was doing it before, you know, they haven't been cancelled or sacked, they've just sort of stepped aside and everyone liked them. Does that make how do you now approach this? Are you just sort of trying to do what he was doing and you know do it your way? Or like I don't know if it makes it harder when you're replacing somebody good.

SPEAKER_04 5:11

I think it makes it easier because you got to learn. I mean, you learn from the good behaviors and the bad behaviors that you see. But with Patrick, anyone that's met him knows that he is basically 99.9% good behavior. So um, there's always that little bit, but um, I got to, I've been by his side for you know a decade. So I have watched him do this job for a really long time. And and you know, it was also not a given, you know, the the the idea of pitching out to to Universal and then pitching out to Peacock, you know, there was always a world where they said, no, you know, you're you're we don't like your take or whatever. So um I don't know. He he's I am truly the luckiest lady in all of Hollywood. Like I honestly believe that because I met him at such a pivotal time in my life and the exact right time to be able to kind of crawl into his orbit and stick with him and um keep bothering him about whatever the next thing is. Um, I mean, should I should I kind of like walk through my like I mean, I was his assistant, that's how we met originally. So I can kind of start there. But um I can set you up.

SPEAKER_06 6:18

Let me I can set you up because I feel like this is you have an awesome uh where we are at the climax of your story, which is this showrunner, which is amazing. That's that's uh because the the people listening are gonna want to hear this journey, especially those who've it's taken them a long time to get their first break. Let's rewind you. Yeah, the beginning where you were not it would like if this was a movie would say, you know, 10 years earlier or whatever, I don't appear, and you are an assistant, and you know, talk about the struggles too, about you know, maybe you know, because you know you've made it, the audience knows you've made it, but like was there a time where you didn't think you were gonna get that next job or get out of the assistant ranks?

SPEAKER_04 7:00

I feel my I feel my blood pressure rising because just that it's it's the most being right on the edge of of something is like for me, it was the most anxiety-filled time of my life, you know, not knowing I'm from Cleveland. Um, I grew up in a family of pest control exterminators. So I did not, you know, I was coming into this world as naive as possible, first of all, but also, you know, without a single way in that I could see. And so I went, I didn't, I moved to New York and I was trying to make, you know, the next great film on my uh with my with my crappy DSLR. And then um I got into when I finished graduate school, I I got a job as an assistant editor on a show called Marco Polo. And I that's when I first met Patrick, but I, you know, I'm I also direct. So my focus at the time was I really wanted to get into into directing. And particularly I was excited about writing for TV and directing for TV. And so I um I just happened to be assistant editing on the episodes of the producing director, Dan Minahan, who needed an assistant. And so that's how I first kind of fell into the assistant world because that was like, I thought that that was gonna be it. I was like, as soon as I get a job as an assistant, that's my big Hollywood break, and then everything's just gonna fall into place. And boy, oh boy, was I wrong. Um, so after, you know, this first season premiered of Marco Polo, and then the second season was coming, and Dan called me and said, you know, do you want to go with us on production for season two and continue as my assistant? And I was like, absolutely. And he was like, I just want to make sure that you understand what you're getting yourself into, into leaving home for eight months and traveling to, you know, we got to travel to some amazing places, but it was a very difficult show. And I was a hundred percent on board. I feel like my, you know, I have put everything else in my life to the side to, you know, in pursuit of of the job. So um, so that was a no-brainer for me. And it's while we were um onset in first Budapest and then Malaysia is where you know I kind of got to know Patrick better and John Fusco, who is the creator. And then by the end of that production, I was assisting all three of them because I'm greedy. And also that because it was cheaper, because I would do it. I was like, I'll do it, I'll do it, I'll do it all, I'll do it all. So um, you know, that was the beginning of of my relationship, particularly with Patrick, that has defined my entire career. And um, and I'm I, you know, I I'm really lucky, honestly. I'm really lucky. He was he was running this for the first time. It was his first job show running. And so um, you know, they had obviously already done a season, but that show was really hard. It was it was, you know, eight months and it was two units running all the time. Uh there was never basically never a point in the the week where we weren't working. So um, yeah, I don't I don't know. It was sort of a little bit like trial by fire. Um, and I somehow made it through.

SPEAKER_06 10:04

Well, I'll I'll let I'll leave Dan to ask the question about the moment where you made it through, but because I have a very granular question that's I'll ask a lot when you're an assistant. I get asked, you know, I've been working on shows for a number of years, and assistants will talk to me about like, when is the right time? Now, this is a weird dance you do because all the person who hired you knows you're a writer, right? They they they know you want to be a writer, they know you are a writer. When is the right time and situation when you're working for three people who can change your career and change your life? Just present them with material. Did they approach you? Did you approach them? What was their response? What was the pre-staffing journey that you have when they looked at your material and said, You're you're awesome or you're great, but these are the things you can work on? Was there, you know, talk about that a little bit?

SPEAKER_04 10:51

So I it was really hard for me to learn the lesson that you're assuming that everyone around you knows your greater ambition. And it was actually like, oh, I actually have to tell people, oh, I want to be a writer. So then once you do that, um, once you make that step, which was for some reason difficult for me to get to on my own. Um, you know, it really I had I had a misconception about how the industry worked. I thought it was like I could just work my way up and then I'll and then I'll be able to write scripts. And I didn't understand, I honestly, it's so silly to say it though. I didn't understand that he's like, I should be writing all of the time. And Patrick was the one that was like, you know, you should be writing all of the time. You should be writing pilots, you should be writing specs, you should be doing whatever you need to do to practice. And um, and so it really wasn't until um I I he brought me on as the writer's assistant for season three of Marco Polo, which never got made. Um and it was then that I was like, he's like, you know, you're never gonna get staffed if you don't have if you don't have a bunch of samples. And he's the kind of guy that can just sit down, it seems, and write, write, write. And um I think I'm the kind of writer like most writers, where it's the hardest thing to get get into the seat. That's the hardest part is sitting down to do it. So it was during that that room that I um that I started writing just terrible pilots all over the place. And I wrote, you know, I think three or four during that, during that time, which then I showed him and he gave me feedback on. I showed his sister who had worked in development. She wasn't working in development at the time. She's obviously come back to to run his company now, Littleton Road Productions. But at the time she was working for Fila, she gave me notes. I was giving it to people who I trusted. And um I didn't, I don't think I realized how good I had it with the kind of notes I was getting back. And these were never gonna be things that that sold, you know. This was like samples that I can write. This isn't like I never thought of these as like, and then I'll sell this show. Um, I have yet to sell a show, in fact. Even Dr. Death was, you know, it was I didn't I really sell that. Um so uh did that answer your question? I feel like I really did.

SPEAKER_06 12:55

You did.

SPEAKER_04 12:55

Okay. I'm talking in circles, my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

I uh I'm gonna be slightly careful here because I don't really because I've not I'm not in the industry, which is obviously sort of good um for me. Um but also means I don't fully understand exactly how it all works, but um, I'm assuming that there were plenty of times where being an assistant it's a sort of job where you do a lot of different things and it's sort of whatever it is they need you to do. But presumably there were times where you know you were doing things that are I guess I guess how do you manage that sort of like thing where like yeah, here's your coffee, and by the way, oh yeah, here's my script, or sort of, you know, yes, I've booked this thing that you need booking. Um, oh by the way, you know, I think you could have done this slightly differently by you know having this character do that and the other. Do you like do you find yourself sort of holding yourself back and sort of having to remind yourself that today the job you need to do is make their life easier and not make your career more successful?

SPEAKER_04 13:57

Yes, absolutely. I I I don't know. I I think I'm a little too shy um to to kind of come out that way. I want to say I would I was so impatient in my in my soul, but I couldn't, it just felt like I was I I think I knew I also wasn't ready to be doing anything meaningful anyway at the time. On some level, I knew I wasn't ready to be to be writing yet because I had so much left to learn as I still do. But um, yeah, I mean yeah, it's it's it's hard to be like, I feel like I should be staffed right now and I'm getting coffee. That's a really, it's a really that's a really difficult thing in your ego that um that's hard to that's hard to overcome. Um but excuse me, there's also sorry, that press jumped yesterday, I'm losing my voice. Um, but uh there's something in helping them do their jobs well that may and making yourself indispensable that felt good, you know, making like being the being the person that they could consistently come to and know that something's gonna get done. Um, you know, I'll never forget the time I made it. I'll never forget like I have like a list of mistakes that I've made at this assistant in my head because it's just like I I just wanted to to be everything for them and and and make myself indispensable and then have it feel like, well, the only natural progression is to keep her on and and have her have her write. And then um, you know, I don't think that I had the normal assistant experience in the openness that John Fusco, Dan Minahan, and Patrick McManus had in letting me kind of talk about the work and ask my ideas, you know, it's like who who does that? Um, so I don't know if that that that experience was normal um or what many people are going to experience, but um yeah, there was something that there was there was an openness there. And obviously, you know, I'm sure I stuck my foot in my mouth approximately a thousand times. And I'm I'm sure I was the most annoying writer's assistant of all time because I had been on set and I thought I knew, you know, I like knew the story front and back. Um and I by that time I had uh an associate producer credit. So I thought I was hot shit, but but um, you know, yeah, I I guess that there's yeah, there's always that like that urge to kind of put yourself out there. You feel like you're ready, you feel like you're ready, and you just have to wait. And that patience is oh my gosh, it's it's really hard. Because that because it's it's patience, but it's also this thing in the back of your head that's like, oh my God, and then it might never happen. You can work and work and work, you can work really hard and you can be really good, and it can still never happen. And that that idea was and still is, by the way, still is very, very frightening to me. I am not the best writer that is out there in Hollywood, you know. Um, and I I worked hard, but I'm sure I'm not the hardest worker either. Um, there's so much of it out of your control. Um, and that's really frightening. And I don't know why we do this to ourselves, but we do.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

Yeah, no, I think this is why I'm glad I don't work in Hollywood. Um, apart from like thinking in asking some questions at a podcast and then going back to my slightly more normal job. Um so it sounds like you have had uh compared to definitely some assistance in Hollywood, given all the things that go on in Hollywood, you definitely have been treated better than a lot of people. Um but I am sure there were still times either it wasn't perfect or you saw other junior people not being necessarily treated amazingly. Now you're shown up. Um how do you and given the journey that you've been on, now you're working with you know, in compared to you, very junior people, uh how do you treat them? Uh and are you sort of looking for the next you in terms of is there somebody there who, you know, is your almost your aim that not necessarily, you know, if if the if if this show continued or you go on to another show, that you would then have one of your former assistants potentially replace you as a show runner?

SPEAKER_04 18:13

Oh my god, that would be so incredible. Uh but yeah, you know, I I I think the biggest takeaway from from being an assistant, uh working up the ladder is um, you know, we we don't have to hate your we don't have to hate our lives while we do this. You know, this job is really hard. Um, and we can and and kindness is really so much more important. We we don't put enough import on the way we we're treating each other. And I feel like I'm starting to sense this shift, especially it's particularly on set, onset, because like a writer's room is is a sacred space. And if you're if I feel like if there's a lack of respect in the writer's room, like that's a you're out. There are too many people on a crew to police everybody's behavior, but I do sense that there's this, um, there's this kind of shift toward the way we're treating each other. And um, and I really, you know, I I know what it feels like. I had to have an assistant, I had to have an assistant this season this season, and it felt so weird because it feels like I'm just it feels like at any minute I could be doing that again. Um, but I treat, I try to treat them the way that I was treated. I mean, listen, it all comes back to that rule, that one golden rule that our moms told us, which is that why, you know, we should always be treating people the way we want to be treated, not the way we were treated. Um, you know, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 19:34

I think, I think we, as I've been in the industry now 15 years, you know, almost maybe going on 20 years, the the just the no assholes rule is definitely becoming no assholes. But I have a question about your journey to showrunner um on the page where you were like, you know, you said, Oh, you know, I'm not the best writer, I'm not the hardest working, but I'm sure you're an awesome writer and I'm sure you're super hardworking. But it's a competitive, it's a competitive, you know, we're competing and it's I'm always saying you're only competing with yourself, but there's the pool is small and a lot of people want to get into it. But my my question to you is like, you worked with Patrick for a number of years, you know, going up the ranks. And at what point in all of this, if ever, did you feel like as you were turning in drafts that you your your bar was rising, that you got it, that you weren't getting rewritten as much, or Patrick was seeing something in you? Did he tell did you did he talk did you talk about it, or did you just notice a shift in the drafts you were turning in on like on a craft level, when did you feel like you were getting to the point where you could be able to run the show?

SPEAKER_04 20:38

Hmm. Um, I think you know, there was he had me co-write a couple of second episodes in the seasons, and that I think felt like, okay, I'm tapping into something in the voice of the show. And then that kind of like I was thinking back, you know, what it takes a minute to get into the voice of the show. And I think accessing that, I think I'm I think I'm okay at that. And I I'd like to think that, you know, when he gave me like we were splitting second scripts down, you know, down the seasons, a second script in The Girl from Plainville, and I split a second script on Death Season One. Um and that was uh that felt good because it was like okay, uh it it felt like an acknowledgement that um yeah, that I that I could tap into that I could tap into something in the voice of the show, maybe. Um I I don't know that I mean I I don't know that I'm ever I'm getting rewritten less. I don't know about that. You know, I don't know. Um I I worked on a show, The Beauty and the Beast sequel sequel, sorry, prequel show with um Adam Horwitz, Eddie Kitses, and Josh Gann, it never went, which that was the moment where it was like if that show's not Going, I don't know what Hollywood is. Um, but you know, they let they let me do like eight drafts of my of my script before we turned it in. And that was like an incredible experience because you know, it was they were the third or fourth showrunners I had worked with, and and it was a different style, obviously, everything was different. And and actually maybe it's that moment, maybe that was the moment where it was like I after that experience, I got to learn so much from that experience and and having them give me so many rounds of notes and letting me do it. And so just taking it away because I get it, it's easier just to say, I'm gonna do it, you know, because it's I had I had a conversation with a friend recently who actually was on Marco Polo, Matt White. He's one of the writer, this was a while ago, actually. He was he was one of the writers on on Dr. Death as well. Um, and he stayed on set with me to produce this season. And he said, I remember ages ago, he had said something like, It feels like you've spent so much time as the as the writer, um, as the as the episodic writer, um, you spend all of this time and energy finding the exact perfect word. And then the showrunner takes it as like, what about fixed it? And I was like, actually, it feels like that, but in reality, it's that you already know kind of what you want anyway. And and and the process of of getting another writer there is is is hard and it's not always given. The opportunity isn't always given to people. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_06 23:31

Yeah, no, I mean it's something that as a I'm on staff, it's something that as a someone on staff you struggle with every day, trying to fulfill the showrunner's, get to the showrunner's voice, yeah, voice, what you think they're gonna do on the page. But so back to um sort of a success and failure question. Uh, this is a simpler question. Uh, you've had two pivotal moments in your life, I think, because you were an assistant for a while, you got staffed, and that was a huge moment in your life. And then you were on staff for a while and you became the showrunner. Of those two moments, becoming a staff writer, which is your coming out party, you know, and becoming a showrunner, which is a whole other coming out party, you know, what was the better feeling? Run us through those emotions.

SPEAKER_04 24:12

Oh my goodness. Um I cried on both occasions. I can say that. Like I like I was with a few friends when I got the sh when I got the call that the contract had gone through, that the deal was done on death, and I just wept. And then that was embarrassing. Um, but the I would say the I would say the getting staffed felt like okay, okay. And and by the way, I did, you know, I I I got staffed on the second season of Happy, and I had been producing on the show. So so I stayed on to for production in the in the first season or in the second season as well. But but then I I I had to assist after that, I had to go back to assisting because I couldn't get get another job. So um until Patrick, until Patrick came back. I think it was after that, it was death, it was death one, I think. Yeah. Um, so yeah, that felt really good, but I also had that that thing in the back of my mind where I knew a lot of my friends got staffed, and then two years went by and they didn't get staffed again. And that was scary. And so yeah, I did end up having to go back, and I was assisting a line producer in New York um on FBI Most Wanted.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

I'm slightly irritated that Noah asked a good question, um, because that's what normally happened, and now I feel slightly under pressure.

SPEAKER_03 25:28

So Oh boy.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

So it's Thursday. The show that in the second season drops today, you're you're the showrunner. Now, you know, it's not like in uh you know in the movies where you you got your box office numbers and so on, but it's gonna drop you presumably you'll get hundreds of text messages and emails from sort of friends and all that congratulating you. Um what when you wake up tomorrow morning what happens next in terms of you know um there's gonna be some obviously immediate feedback, but then there's also sort of if it's if it's good, then you're sort of what do I do next? If it's not good, then sort of what do I do now? Um but also it's sort of you know gonna be talked about, you're gonna be talked about. What what do you sort of do? How are you expecting tomorrow to go?

SPEAKER_04 26:34

Oh my goodness. Um I don't know if you guys have experienced this, but I feel like after every show raps or releases or whatever, there's a there's a I get like I fall into this really dark place. I fall into like a really deep depression. And I like sometimes like after the girl from Plainville, like I think I didn't like leave the house for two weeks straight. I just I don't know. I I feel like there's a there's a little bit of like a loss of it. And you're right, it's like if it does well, it's like what is what's next? And if it doesn't do well, it's like what is next? What am I gonna do? You know? Um, you know, and I think our our brains are you, you know, writing is work and it takes practice and and you and you get better and worse at it, you know, you can fall out of practice of everything. And so I think trying to run right into the next thing would be the ideal. But like I'm gonna be honest with you, I feel like there's a 90% chance I turn on the first episode of Buffy and just like sit on the couch and like panic and and you know, and go to the dark place. And that's I'll I'll I will try not to, but um, but yeah, I don't know. I guess it trying to keep the momentum, not just like whatever, people, you know, hopefully people like the show and hopefully there's momentum in in the in the show. But the momentum of kind of like my personal momentum is is the thing that's always the hardest, you know, keeping yourself going and not and not falling off and and sort of then having to wind yourself back up to get back into the that mindset, you know. I was after Plainville wrapped, I I didn't know what was going to be next. You know, you never know where your where your money's coming from. I had just gotten a new place. So I there was a lot of there was a lot of that pressure. And so um, you know, and it took me a long time after that kind of weird darkness to to get my brain back into a lucid place than to try to pitch a show, you know, to pitch a show. Um, so I feel like it's it's that race forward. Um I guess that's the kind of the ideal tomorrow morning is I want to wake up and write something. And even if I don't, you know what? You guys have done it. I am going to write 10 pages tomorrow. Just kidding. I'm gonna write two pages tomorrow of something, a pitch, a pilot, something.

SPEAKER_00 28:57

Obviously, careers are funny things because uh, you know, to Noah's question, there's a point where you're like, I've become a staff writer. This is great, this is what I wanted to say, and then you're sort of in it, and then you're like, oh, right, now a showrunner. Um what comes next in terms of there's there's different ways of being a showrunner, obviously. There is what you're doing now, which is you know, you're with a trusted family, as it were, where they've given you the chance, but it's not your show, but you've shown them that you can do it. What's the next sort of personal challenge for you? Is it your your own show starting from scratch? Is it being asked to do the second or third season of another show, but not one where you're you know you were the assistant for the previous show running, you know, a completely new set of people where you're sort of starting again? Is it to not be a show run again, actually, and do something maybe a bigger show, um, but you're the number two, or you're doing, or you're gonna go off and do some directing. Like what do you do next, do you think?

SPEAKER_04 30:00

Directing is absolutely my next goal. I mean, I I really love it, and I I kind of there was a choice. I remember consciously early on that I was like, okay, I can either pursue directing and then try to shift into a writer's room, but I kind of you know, I knew that the writer's room is it's a really hard place to get into. And so it's like if I can do that, then I feel like it will be a little bit of an easier track over to directing. So directing next would be my my big goal. Um, and I don't, I don't, I kind of I I don't know what it's whatever comes next because and I've always said this, and I've this is what I've always done. I don't know if this is right or wrong. I have never passed up a job. I take whatever comes next. I I would love to staff again. I think that working, you know, I'm in a I'm in a comfort, I'm in a comfort zone place. And, you know, it's it's scary for me to go outside of the comfort zone, but I I will admit that with like Patrick and his company and Universal, that's a really comfortable place for me. And it's safe. And so it the the idea of working for for a different, even a frankly, even a different studio is is a is a scary thing. Um so that would be a personal, that would be a personal challenge that um that I will hopefully have to face because you know, hopefully my career continues. Um, but honestly, yeah, directing would be the the next kind of dream big achievement. But getting the next getting any next job, you know, staffing or developing something, that's kind of I, you know, this that step will feel like something good.

SPEAKER_06 31:37

When you were, this is on the next thing. When you were a staff writer, and this is a common story, and we've I mean not a common, like your story is common, but we've heard it a few times on this podcast where people just don't get another job and then they have to go back to being assistant. And it feels like such a failure, probably because you've made your dreams, and then you gotta tell your parents or your friends, like, oh by the way, I'm back to this thing. Um, and then you make yourself back, you go back up, and the second job is always impossible. Now, you know, yeah, I've made the way up the ranks, but I've never been showrunner. So what like you can't go from showrunner to assistant, you can't go from showrunner to folding shirt.

SPEAKER_03 32:11

Well, just watch me.

SPEAKER_06 32:13

Like there, like I have to imagine there is no plan B anymore. There might be like co-ep, or sometimes they have to go to a different show. But like, do you feel like at this point with Dr. Death? I've had friends who be like, when you make showrunner, it's like you're in a whole new ball game, it's a whole new world. But I have to imagine there's way more fears too, like about what's next.

SPEAKER_04 32:33

Absolutely. Because then also, you know, you get used to I I I I think of myself as a as a as a pretty collaborative person. Um, and I I'd like to hope that the casting crew agree with me. Um, but I I I I don't the idea of working for someone doesn't feel to me like a step down in a way. I don't know. I mean that I don't know if that sounds insincere. I really actually mean that. Like it doesn't seem like a step down because I guess this is like my own um all of my I don't know if you if you've noticed that I'm constantly functioning from a place of deep fear, but um there's also a lot of um there's a lot there's a lot of self-doubt and there's a lot of I mean imposter syndrome is a very deeply real thing. And um, and I I know that I have a lot more to learn uh about how to tell stories on television. So I I don't think that um I'm not I don't I don't think of myself as like I don't think that's it's like if I'm not running something or I'm not developing something that I've like taken a step back. I think uh and and that's probably part of the the imposter syndrome talking about, you know, talking about like, did I really um did I really earn this to get here in the first place?

SPEAKER_06 33:55

Um yeah, that's that's we've got other guests on here who've said the same thing, who've made it to Showrunner Creator, and they're like, I was so ready to not be that the next time because I did feel like I had things to learn, whether that was true or not, and then I went back for a few more shows, and then I went back up, and by then it's it is like getting your reps in. You have to get your reps in.

SPEAKER_04 34:15

Yeah, yeah. That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_06 34:19

It's a very different, it's a very different job. Um, do you feel like you were able to manage, you know, forget about we talked about writing a lot. So now this is normally a Dan question, but like the management side of being a showrunner, is that was were you good at that? Did you like that? Is that something that you're excited to do in future seasons?

SPEAKER_04 34:40

Yes, I did, I did like it. Um, I like it because and and this is something that Patrick did as well. I like being able to control everything. No, I like to be able to control the atmosphere. And and when you are the manager, like you set the pace, you set the tone. And that was that was exciting to me because it was like I, if this show is not fun and people are miserable, then that's my fault. And um, which obviously is also a lot of pressure. But I the idea of being able to, I think I'm pretty good at that side of things, like the producorial. I mean, the the producorial side of of my of my job is is why I'm I'm here now, because I was always Patrick always kept me around because I could produce for him. Um, and I shouldn't say for him, with him. Um but so that side of things always felt under control for me. Um and it was really more the the the creative stuff that felt like, can I do this? Um and can I do it well? Am I gonna tell, am I gonna tell this story in a way that, you know, you're uh also, by the way, there's like this true crime thing is is extra tricky because am I gonna tell this story in a way that's going to make the families of the real people that I'm telling about, you know, um feel good about the way that we're telling that story, um, which is a a bit of a burden that I think I put to the side a little bit. Like I think I I think I sort of disconnected myself from that a little bit and thinking of them as characters and not people, which you kind of have to. Um, wow, I really just kind of went off on a tangent there. Um uh yeah, did that answer?

SPEAKER_02 36:15

No, I love that.

SPEAKER_04 36:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 36:18

Oh uh no, it did indeed. This is no, you're you are an excellent guest, Ashley. I want to say this. Oh, really? I was having a difficult day. He's asking good questions and he's stealing my questions. So um you're doing really well, and that's the important thing.

SPEAKER_04 36:33

Um I'm disappointed in you, man. Yeah, it happens a lot.

SPEAKER_00 36:39

So um I was gonna ask a managerial sort of leadership question because that's what I normally do, but I'm I can't now because he has. So I actually I'm actually gonna ask, I guess it's a more specific question about the show. So um when it was on this season, what's the one thing that nearly went the most wrong uh under your stewardship in terms of uh you know, either a mistake you made or you nearly made but didn't quite? Was there was there a moment on this show where something bad nearly happened, but it was I know I know it's a complicated world making these shows, but something that was maybe your fault or you could have uh done differently to stop something potentially happening.

SPEAKER_04 37:29

Okay, so um how much how much time do we have to record this? I mean, I made mistakes probably every single day, but um um, you know, right off the bat, I think there are a few, this is not like a huge one, this is a like easily fixable, but it was just like one of those things that it's like you don't know what you don't know until you try it and you screw up. Um, the very beginning, I don't know why I had this weird, like, I didn't want to share the pitch with the writers and I was like, you guys are gonna come in because there's already the podcast. And we've got all this, they have like a trove of research from the Wonder Podcast team. And I was like, I'm not gonna share the pitch because I want you guys all to come in fresh. And I basically like wasted our first week of the writer's room, kind of just like, but and they're like, but what do you think? And I was like, you know what? At the end of that first week, you guys, I'm gonna give you the pitch. You should all read the pitch this weekend. And that was like, duh, obviously you should give them the pitch to read. Um, because they want to they need to know your take on the show. Otherwise, we're just spinning in circles about everyone's take on the show. And that was just such a silly, stupid like thing to do that I don't know what I thought was like, you know, everybody's gonna come in fresh and everyone's gonna have all these great ideas. Um, one thing that I did that I made the mistake, one mistake I made, um, and this was a bigger mistake that I couldn't correct, is I had it in my mind that we were gonna do these two blocks of four episodes shooting at once. And um that was a mistake. Um, I wanted to limit the the director, the amount of directors I had. And that was honestly, I can say this to you guys like that was a complete control issue of mine. I wanted, I didn't want to have four directors that I'd have to like micromanage. I don't think I'm a micromanager, with the exception of maybe the directors. I feel I think you can ask Jennifer Morrison if she felt like I was micromanaging or be or getting a little bit too too up in her space. Um, but I I because I direct and I have a, you know, I wanted, I wanted, I wanted it to be what it is in my head, but that's not why we do this. We do this to collaborate because that person's gonna have an idea that you couldn't possibly have had. You know, I know all this emotion, I know, I know all this in my mind. I just, you know, I'm having a hard time getting it into my soul. But um, I so we hired these two directors and they were wonderful. And it was just so hard. It was so hard to do four episodes at a time. It was so hard for the actors to, especially um, you know, Edgar was running two Edgar Ramirez who plays uh Dr. Death. He was in two different timelines. So he's you know, it was difficult for the actors, it was difficult for the crew. Um, if made production feel much longer, and that was a mistake that I I think I hope the show didn't really suffer, but I know production did, and I and I I think about that a lot.

SPEAKER_00 40:14

Interesting. Um, I almost feel obliged now to ask the opposite question. So obviously I'm sure you're proud of the show as a whole, but is there one thing, and it might not be like a brilliant idea or concept, but is there one particular thing that uh that you did during production or pre-production or post where uh you know it was something that you uh either managed or came up with or did differently that made a material difference that you can sort of let's it's not about being boastful, there's something like, wow, I did that and that worked really well, and I'm glad I made that decision, or you know, I people said I shouldn't do it and I stuck to my guns and it worked. Is there is there a is there an you know an opposite moment to what you've just discussed about something that you did really well?

SPEAKER_04 40:59

Huh. No, I didn't um you know the the one of the episodes of of the show is it's episode five and it's sort of like a turning point in the in the arc of the season. And I had this idea at the very beginning of kind of conceiving how the show was gonna go that I wanted to focus on one character and um one actually one victim, and then the doctor that's primarily taking care of her, and it's really it's an important episode in the show for a lot of different reasons. Um and I had this idea that it's basically an entire episode of it's like a montage of the entire episode because you're telling a very long story in one episode of this girl's life. Um, and that episode being ended up being 84 scenes, and um they were like, Yeah, exactly. I just thought it's not it's a lot, yeah. Like I think I think average it's like, I don't know, maybe between 30 and 40, realistically. And then we always end up with like something like 60, and we have to cut a bunch of stuff because we don't have time. So um it was a lot of, and it was it was really demanding of the director, and it was incredibly demanding on Alicia Roser and Luke Kirby, the the actors that were featured the most in that episode. But I'm glad that we stuck to it. And like I think, I mean, I can't, I think it was one of those things it was like, yeah, we're gonna keep pretending like we're gonna do this, and then eventually it's gonna fall apart and you're just gonna have to like do this episode differently. But then we did it. And I I'm really, I'm really proud of not giving up because that was a hard. I mean, and then you know, that was a hard episode, that was a hard block to produce, and that was a hard episode to produce. Um, but that felt good. It was like, because it was a creep, it felt like in my, it was like one of the earliest ideas I had, and it felt like in my soul, like this is important, this episode's important, it has to be this way. Um, and I almost gave up a few times, but um, I'm glad that we didn't because I think I think people are gonna are gonna be into that episode. I think it's it's kind of special.

SPEAKER_06 43:11

Oh can't wait to watch it for starters uh today. Today you can talk about it today. Um, well, thank you, Ashley. This is, you know, unfortunately, this is gonna bring us to our last question.

SPEAKER_01 43:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 43:24

Every single person on this podcast that you might be prepared or you might not be prepared for this. But what is one piece of advice that you would give to somebody who's you know just entering this business as a writer? What would that be?

SPEAKER_04 43:39

I have been thinking about this. Um for me, it's there is no job beneath you. You know, there's no job in honestly, even outside of the industry that you can't glean something from, that you can't learn something from that you can bring into either your writing or your storytelling, your producing, your directing, your acting, whatever. Um so I I think, you know, staying, it's it's easy to get worked up into that, um, the the competitiveness of this industry and the and the um anxiety of it and never knowing and trying and like just being on the edge and never making it, never making it, but um trying to to step back and remember that everything that we're doing is all gonna be um everything, every experience that you have is all going to make you um a more layered storyteller. Um, so I I would say, yeah, go in, go into assist the hell out of those producers and make yourself indispensable. You know, take take something from every job and nothing um nothing is is is every experience you can take something from.

SPEAKER_00 44:46

Brilliant. Um look, this has been a fascinating episode. Um really? Yeah, no, no. Um, like your your your honesty and your answers. Um, I know you you you know you've said a few times about the sort of imposter syndrome and uh anxiety around it. Um, and obviously of the 110 episodes we've had, I think probably half half of the writers have expressed that like you have, and the other half probably should have done, but just didn't. Um but no, it's been fascinating having you on. I really appreciate I know you're you're busy doing your sort of normal junkety things around this. Um, and it's nice to have you come on and do the long form therapy session version of a junkie.

SPEAKER_04 45:32

Uh I was gonna say, uh let me know what to bill you guys for the therapy session. And um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:39

But uh this has been great. I am sure the show will be incredibly well received today. And when you do wake up tomorrow morning, um please email us to confirm that you did indeed write two pages two and ten pages.

SPEAKER_04 45:52

Um you guys are so great. I you know what this podcast is so important, so thank you for having me on.

SPEAKER_00 45:59

Uh well, Ashley Michael Hobart, thank you very much indeed. It's been a pleasure to have you on our show.

SPEAKER_04 46:04

Thank you guys, appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 46:08

Thank you for listening to this episode of Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss brought to you by Scriptation. Thank you as ever to James Launch for the music, and thank you to our loyal listeners. And if there's any showrunners out there who want to hear their fellow showrunners abused uh and ruffled around and put under the microscope so you can hear their stories of rejection, failure, and adversity, please send them our way. If you are interested in following us on social media, no, I've lost track.

SPEAKER_06 46:45

I am at NEBslin on Twitter or X or whatever Elon Musk now calls it. And thanks to Elon Musk, I'm also at Noah Ebslin on Hive, Scoutable, Blue Sky, Threads, Mastodon, MySpace, French, and I'm sure of those.