Take 56 - Showrunner Patrick Macmanus, Dr Death

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for sure, dozens of unproduced scripts littering the floor.

SPEAKER_04 0:14

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

For every six days, there is sometimes even years of clean failure.

SPEAKER_03 0:26

This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default. That's the default to be able to persevere. Like everything in our business here, and it's gonna count. That process takes care of that doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

I was being told by my manager it's yours to lose. And I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking like, well, that's it for me. I blew my one big shot. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss. Now it was obviously a bit interesting last week. Um uh Noah wasn't involved in the intro, I wasn't involved in the main podcast. As you'd expect, we had lots of complaints about my lack of involvement in the main podcast, and zero about Noah's lack of involvement in the intro. But either way, we've decided to bring Noah back for the intro. And Noah's not just not just here, he's there, he's on a set being a TV writer, doing real stuff. Noah, how's Hawaii?

SPEAKER_04 1:33

Uh Hawaii is amazing, and you know, I can't give away too many details of what I'm doing right now, but I can say I'm in a beautiful part of Honolulu, and there's about 200 people around for the scene that we're shooting. So it's there's sometimes when you're you know doing uh what we do and you sort of pinch yourself going, wow, this is actually my life, and the camera's light, the whole deal, it's it's kind of exciting, but obviously, a lot of writers on TV shows spend a lot of time in writing rooms as as you've done, or Zoom writing rooms, but obviously, depending on the show and then the locations and how it all works, you get to go to set.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Now, you've been in this game for I don't know however many years, a long time.

SPEAKER_04 2:14

Is it still exciting being on set? It's it's really exciting. I I think you know, we writers more and more often don't get to come to set anymore. It's not part of the contract, the short orders. Often the writers are not on the show anymore when we're shooting. So only, you know, uh some cable shows, some streaming shows will allow the writers, mostly network shows are the only ones that still do it. And with COVID, even those shows weren't doing it. So so with that aside, I mean, just how rare it is, yeah, it's exciting. I mean, you have to be sort of not human to sort of not feel, you know, this sense of sort of just amazement at what everyone does to make how many people are involved to make a TV show, all the best, you know, at what they do. And you know, a few weeks into a few months ago, these were just words on a page. And now they're building sets and they're shooting, and the actors are saying the lines, it's all really cool and surreal.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Does it make it this is such an obvious question? The answer is yes, but I have to ask it so you can say yes and then expand on it. But presumably all the crappy times when you're getting pitches rejected and you're out of work and all that stuff. Obviously, being in a writer's room is one thing, but to be on a set, as you say, surrounded by lots of people you can't describe what they're doing, um, does that make all the struggle worthwhile?

SPEAKER_04 3:34

Yeah, no, no, this is this is the thing that you dream about. I mean, I think we'll dream about awards and other things, but this is the this is the reality. And you know, just sitting here and by the way, all that background noise, Dan and I are very protective of the noise that we hear, and now I'm in the middle of banging and smashing because we're in between setups. The crew is doing what they're doing, they're setting up, tearing down cameras, moving lights, there's cars, there's people. So I apologize for the background noise. But yeah, I'm I'm both excited and tired. These are long days, and I think you know, the writers were not on set as often as the crew is, and they just grind these 12-hour days every day. They come in here, and every day they make the magic that you guys see on TV and you enjoy. And I think you know, I I just always remind myself to be appreciative and grateful and sort of never lose your stoke. Like, this is cool. This is you know, undeniably a really fun thing to do and a really fun part of our job. But it's also tiring and a lot of pressure, you know, you want to make sure the scenes are right, you got a lot of money, you get a lot of people involved, and you're kind of there to make sure, you know, from the writer's perspective that the scenes are going the way that you guys wrote them. So you you know, there's some pressure on us as well.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

So how does it work? So obviously you're on set, you know, you're not an actor, you're a writer. So you just you go along just before the scene and say, hey guys, don't forget we use bold slug lines here.

SPEAKER_04 4:47

Um We use a lot of we see in this scene, so uh therefore we need to see things. Uh and no, we you know we're we're there the directors, we're there in the rehearsals, we're there, you know, next to the director. We don't need to direct the actors, but we're there for tone and there, we're there for sort of a second set of eyes and to make sure that we're hitting the points that uh that we need to hit. And also the actors will often come up to us because we are the continuity of the series. So they'll like, where was I last scene, last episode? Why are we, you know, where is this building to? And you're just sort of reminding them so they can place themselves in the moment. Um and you know, obviously, directors come and go on network on episodic TV. So, you know, as the writers, we're here all the time, and it's sort of all about sort of protecting the story that we all came up with in the room. Um so that's that's why I'm here, and I get to be here for two weeks uh this time around. And I think this is my third trip or second third episode uh before the studio show.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

Presumably for you, there's a lot of you know, the actors come up to you and go, Hey, no, that that line you wrote was amazing, and you say, No, no, that that one wasn't me. Does that happen a lot to you?

SPEAKER_04 5:54

Uh there is definitely some of that. As people know, this is a group effort, and we have a lot of talented TV show TV writers on our staff. So you love when it is one of your lines, often it's someone else's line, and you just smile and always accept the compliment.

SPEAKER_00 6:08

So, last question before we talk about the episode that people are about to listen to. What is more exhilarating for you literally being there on set while it's all happening, or sitting at home with your friends and family and seeing your name pop up on an episode on the TV?

SPEAKER_04 6:23

Oh, that's a good question. That's a good question. I love sharing the final product, and by friends, it's often you, people that we don't we pretend to be frenemies on this podcast, but you've been there for many of those moments where my name pops up. And uh I think that's a good moment. I I I think being here in Hawaii where I'm from beats it out just a little bit because it's special to see how this how you know how everything is constructed and just you know all the work that goes into it. And and you're sort of an important part of the process.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

So look, uh enough about you. I think we want to move on. Um so fascinating episode this time. We talked to Patrick McManus, uh showrunner of Dr. Death, and uh I think this was the closest we've come to a guest crying. Uh you know, apart from sort of, you know, sometimes I break you down into tears in the warm-ups, uh, but that's just by being mean to you. But in terms of uh the emotion of someone's story and what they've gone through, I think this was one of the more extreme versions. So made for a hell of an episode, which I think people are gonna enjoy, I think isn't quite the right word, but certainly get something from.

SPEAKER_04 7:35

Yeah, I was thinking about Patrick's uh interview a lot while I'm in here because I think you know he'll get into it about being away from the family and the tolls that it takes. But the downside, this is this is the first time I've come to say, pick yourself. And I've been away from my family for two weeks. So it's hard. And I think you know, as you guys hear in the background, pictures up, we're about to shoot the scene. So I'm gonna we're gonna drop off and I'll we're gonna let you actually listen to the episode that we have. But yeah, Patrick's episode really resonated with me. You there you are away from your family, and there's some tolls, and he's gonna talk about that in a way that our other guests haven't sort of spoken to that truth yet.

SPEAKER_00 8:07

Right. Now I'm gonna let you go before you get fired for wasting everyone's time and money on this set. Everyone enjoy the Patrick episode, it's amazing. All right, back to you guys soon.

SPEAKER_04 8:17

Thanks, Dan.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, the podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. I am, as ever, your English non-entertainment co-host, Dan Rutstein.

SPEAKER_04 8:34

And I'm your industry co-host, Noah Epsling. Today I'm delighted to introduce actor, TV writer, producer, and showrunner Patrick McManus to the podcast. Patrick worked on Marco Polo, Happy, Homecoming, and the upcoming girl from Plainville. He's also created the limited series, Dr. Death, on top of having 17 acting credits on such shows as Scrubs, Cold Case, NCIS, CICSI, and Jag. Welcome, Patrick.

SPEAKER_02 9:02

Uh so what you basically listed was everything that anyone could ever kill me in, because no one ever wanted me to act a second time. So yeah, uh, thank you for thank you for which is why I'm a writer now. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

So I'm actually gonna start with that, as I have done before when we've had people with acting credits who are now very impressive writers. So was your intention always to be a writer, or was the acting just not of the sufficient standard to survive in this industry, and therefore you had to switch?

SPEAKER_02 9:35

I mean, is my is my laugh enough of an answer for you to that question? Um yeah, it I uh so I um I really wanted to be in politics. That's from the time I was a little a very way too young. This is we've talked before this, that I'm slightly sociopathic. Um, I I really from the time I was like five, wanted to be president of the United States. Uh and uh and that's a much longer story than you have for for this for this podcast, but I um I I say that because I I transitioned into acting because I think that that's just like the natural next step for somebody who wanted to be president but couldn't be. Um, and I really thought when I left my school in Washington, DC to come out to Los Angeles that I was going to be the next Brad Pitt, uh, not understanding that I uh neither have his looks nor his ability. Uh and that went on for like three or four years of delusion um until I uh stumbled into writing. I I will say that I always enjoyed writing from the time I was a very little kid. I anytime that they gave like a short story assignment or or or anything that involved any creative writing in any way, I wrote about 10 times more pages than the other kids. Um so I guess it was always there. Um, but I never thought that I would ever uh make uh a living doing it. And it definitely wasn't on my radar until uh until uh a dark night of the soul in 2004, I believe it was. I think I was a shitty actor, by the way. That's just that sum it up, I was a shitty actor. There you go.

SPEAKER_04 11:12

I I had I had a number of questions teed up, but you just sort of set up the idea of this dark night of the soul, which I think we we'd be remiss not to probe. So, what happened? How did you how did you decide you're gonna be a writer? How did that darkness convince you to continue pursuing the darkness of of being a full-time writer?

SPEAKER_02 11:30

Sure. Uh so I was living with three other guys, uh all of whom were various versions of, including myself, of waiters or bartenders. Uh and all of us wanted to be in the industry, two of us wanted to be actors, one wanted to be a director, and one wanted to be a producer. And um the the the one who wanted to be an actor and the one who wanted to be a director, they were working on this like short story idea, or sorry, excuse me, a short film idea. And I didn't think anything of it until they got it optioned uh by Sony. Um and look, these guys are still friends of mine. Uh, I respect the hell out of them. Uh I love them. Uh, but at the time I hated them. Uh when this happened, basically what I'm saying to you is that I was, some would say, M, a very small, petty, bitter man. Uh, and when I saw that they had this nugget of success, uh, instead of me being like, guys, this is wonderful, I was like, wait a minute, why the fuck do they get this? I don't understand. How did this happen exactly? So I um I did a lot of soul searching and I saw how jealous I was, and I decided that I was going to sit down and write something myself. And again, it purely came out of blackness of my soul. There was nothing at all that was uh honorable about it. Um and I I had this idea, and I will tell you, you'll never hear me say this again in this interview or beyond. It was a really good idea. Like it was a great idea. Um and I sat and I'll share it. I have no problem sharing it in a second, but I sat down and over a weekend I wrote this pilot. Um and now you'll hear something that I will say quite often, uh, which is that my writing was a piece of shit. It was garbage. Now, I don't know how I thought that uh writing a script over a weekend was going to be the next coming of Christ. Um, but uh but interestingly enough, uh it got optioned. Um, and it was optioned by uh a producer named Gavin Pallone, who is a pretty, pretty big producer. My sister was uh friends with his development executive, and she heard the she read the script, she said she liked it. Um she heard the I, but she really loved the idea. And again, the idea was awesome. It was it was called Stacy's Mom. It was based on the song. It was about these two best friends from childhood, two guys, one named Stacy, and that guy's in finance. This is way before the financial collapse. Um he's in finance in New York, his career collapses, he has to move home, and he finds that his best friend is dating his mom and living with his mom. And we were certain, we were like talking about Heather Lockley or playing the mom, and and it was a great idea. I mean, again, I I still to this, I stand by it to this day. It's a great idea. Um, but uh but um they they optioned it and through a series of events that are very, it's a very long story. Um it it died. It it didn't it didn't go anywhere. I will say that I did 43 drafts of that script. Uh, that is a true story. I don't know if you know this, but I think you do. That's a lot of drafts. Um, and and for that to then go belly up, it was a little bit of a crush, crushing moment. It did get me my first agent. Um, agencies that wouldn't let me use the bathroom if I desperately needed to pee uh in their lobby never would have opened their door for me, but suddenly everybody wanted to meet with me because I was this like hot young writer who clearly got Gavin Pallone. And in reality, I was just working at the Abbey as a bartender, and so I really wasn't anything. Um, but that got my career started, and so that I'll shut up there.

SPEAKER_04 15:20

So so was this while you were acting, or was it after, or was it all happening sort of at the same time?

SPEAKER_02 15:26

Same time. It was all the same time. Um, I was still because again, like I I wrote it on like a jealous whim, right? Um, and so I was still auditioning, I was still uh I got some roles randomly. Um, but yeah, it was uh it took me a while still to turn fully over to to writer, though, from there.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

Given that don't take this the wrong way, but given you look like a sort of poor man's Roy Kent, when you saw Brett Goldstein sort of swap sides and become an actor, yeah. Now that you're sort of actually a real writer, have you have you thought about trying to slip back across because it's people are doing it, or are you gonna stick with where you are?

SPEAKER_02 16:11

Uh uh so that's so first of all, I take that as the highest praise because uh I don't watch a lot of TV. I really don't. That is a and and unfortunately the studio hates me saying that because I just I don't. Um, but I got you know looped into lasso and I love every frame of that show. Uh I and uh I gotta be honest, I I have a massive crush uh on Brett Goldstein. I he is a very attractive man. So even if I'm like a quarter of that, I'll take that. Um and he also happens to be an excruciatingly talented writer, as it turns out, uh, which is really grossly unfair. Um, but I will say that um no, I I I don't have any aspirations of being in uh in front of the camera again, outside of the fact that I do hitchcock myself on every show. So there are there are like cameos, but they're usually stupid on purpose, uh, and they're very hard to find, but they're in every show.

SPEAKER_00 17:15

Fantastic. So going back to this time, so you've you've written something, albeit for the wrong reasons, it's it's got you somewhere, but then ultimately doesn't finish, which is obviously the story of a lot of people. Did that because you failed, you sort of half succeeded and then failed within that first push, did that sort of give you a bit of grit to keep going and not get carried away next time something had legs because you thought it might not die? Or did actually the opposite? You're like, well, I wrote something that wasn't brilliant, it got picked up, maybe this is easy. Like, what did you take from that first version?

SPEAKER_02 17:57

Um, it's a really, really good question. Um I presume it's gonna be your best. That's it. That's the end of the good questions. Uh I uh correct. Um uh you know, I I I can honestly say that I don't remember the answer to that question. Um and the re and the and the reason is is pretty is pretty simple, actually. Um so so as I mentioned, I got an agent, I got agents, and um and it was big. It was it was ICM. Um and that a gentleman named Kevin Karate, who at the time was still like he wasn't a junior agent, but he was just an agent, and and then became like head of of TV Lit for ICM. He still exists there to this day, I think. A brilliant agent, um, who really, really jumpstarted my career and and was and and the reason I signed with him was that he was brutally honest with me, right? Like I, which is something that I and it'll come around to your question in a second, I promise. I I don't expect, I demand people to be brutally honest with me. Like, and I can always sniff out BS. I can always sniff out when someone is telling me what I want to hear, and that's that's a death knell for me. Like, I'd rather somebody look me in the face and say, You're a fucking idiot, make it better, than somebody like, ah, it's great, but maybe you could right. So I'm meeting all these agents, and Kevin in our meeting, everyone's sort of blowing smoke up wherever I'm I fuck it, I already said it, up my ass. And and Kevin like stopped the meeting and he goes, you know, Patrick, you know what we do. We really like your idea. We think there's something to do, some somewhere to go with it. But if you want to be with us, be with us. If you don't, don't, it's totally okay. It's been really nice meeting you. And I was like, and and he left. And my manager turned to me and she goes, and I go, that's him. That's the one. I want to be with that guy. And so um, I say that because Stacy's mom died, and Kevin was like, Well, what else you got, man? And I said, I don't have anything, I don't know what you're talking about, man. I'm like, I thought this was gonna be friends and I'm gonna be able to play golf for the rest of my life. Like, I'd retire. Like, I thought I don't know. And he goes, Well, you gotta come up with something, because if you don't have anything, then we don't have any reason for being here, right? And I said, Okay, well, I have this idea for a harsh like novel that I wanted to write one day. And he goes, Well, you're not known for horror, you're known for comedy. And I said, Honestly, Kevin, I'm known for my mojitos at the Abbey on Sundays. That's what I'm known for. I don't, I don't know, I'm not known for anything else. And Kevin goes, All right, go. Like, go, go write it if you want to write it. It's fine. We'll, you know, we'll we'll listen to it, we'll read it. And so I left for six months. And I went off, maybe it was a little bit less than that, it was it was maybe four months, and I wrote it, and he happened to respond to it and he put it out in the town and and and uh and uh and it got it got bought. It was the first thing that officially got bought, um, and with a script behind it, another script behind it. And then that one died. Uh, and then I wrote another one, and that one also sold. And it was at that point in time, and by the way, spoiler alert, that one died too. Um, but it was at that point in time after the first three sales that I realized that that maybe this is something that I should be doing uh instead of acting. And that's where I sort of closed the door on acting.

SPEAKER_00 21:10

Fantastic. So I'm gonna wind forward a bit now to you know you being a success as you are now, but go back to a point you made about this brutal honesty points, because you know, there is a world of theories around you know, honesty as feedback versus not honesty as feedback in terms of how people should manage people. Um now that you are in a leadership position, you know, you're running shows. How do you use brutal honesty? Because obviously you have to be careful, particularly in today's Hollywood with everything that goes on. So as a as a leader, do you still try and employ brutal honesty, but maybe with a bit of softness around it?

SPEAKER_02 21:55

Uh uh look, absolutely. I I think that I I think so, first of all, you know, I'll say you you you alluded to to how Hollywood is today and and you know I think that uh I think Hollywood is in a much better place. I mean it has a has a long way to go uh but it's definitely in in a better place. And I you know I I say to people often that um I don't believe that either politics nor confrontation are dirty words. And I think that there is a a way to be able to be quote unquote brutally honest while still being respectful and kind um and caring about uh about people, being empathetic about what it's like to be on the other side of the receiving of that brutal honesty. And in my experience so far, right, I believe that people genuinely appreciate brutal honesty. Look there are some people who um can't stomach it, right? Like and that's okay. And you have to find a way to be able to still get your point across while still um while still um caring about those people. But there's a reason why I said that I don't think the politics is a dirty word, right? The the definition of politic is that you adjust yourself for the audience that you are that you're with that you that you don't believe that there's a one size fits all way of approaching the world. And and I fundamentally believe in that. So um when I have to be brutally honest with people I try to do it from a place of empathy and and I try to share anecdotal evidence of of what what I've done which is I hope which is allows that to go down a little bit easier. But like I'll give you a really good example I've had a very I think and maybe if you interview some of the actors who've worked with me they'll disagree with you but uh the evidence so far supports it that I've had a really good relationship with actors. And one of the reasons why I think I've had a really good relationship with actors is that I don't treat them like actors. Right? I don't treat them like stars and I treat them like human adults unless they're teens and then I treat them like human teens, right? But I've oftentimes watched this industry play games with with people thinking that they need to be told this thing in order to get that thing. And I just I've never bought into it. I I believe that if people feel like you're being genuine and being kind they they appreciate it. And that that's just my belief. And I don't know if that or at least that's my experience and I hope that I'm right. Otherwise no one's going to want to work with me for sure.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Yeah well I'm sure that's not true of everybody but I think it feels like that must be right. No one's actually about to ask a question but obviously if you think his question isn't very good, feel free to give him feedback and any level of honesty because he loves taking notes from people. He never gets defensive fair enough.

SPEAKER_04 24:55

All right let's have it man bring it up I speaking of the brutal honesty of it all I I do want to say how annoying in the most you know complimentary way it is to hear this story of yours where basically your first three scripts do really well, right? Your first script you can't expect to sell it but Gavin Pologne signs on and ICM signs you as a client right then you sell your next two it sounds like so it sounds like you're actually going now you said they didn't get made like like oh it didn't get made but you know that's normally people write 10, 15, 20 scripts before they've even started this career of of getting anyone to pay attention to their script. So things are you're still slinging mo, I'm guessing maybe by the second sale you're no longer slinging mojitos at the Abbey or maybe you are I was yeah but my quest my question to you is uh is when is there a period in here? You know I noticed that your one of your early writing credits is on Marco Polo so you got staffed along the way but in here did you ever feel and and and maybe even up to today because it's a very common uh theme with our with our guests like like you didn't want to do this anymore or this business was was the walls were closing in or you couldn't pay your bills or oh crap you quit the Abbey but maybe you need to go back to the Abbey like like like let's talk talk us through that period of your career.

SPEAKER_02 26:17

All of the above by the way I look again I I'm gonna be you know I'm gonna be brutally honest with you about myself and it is not uh if if I you know if I didn't lead off with the fact that I you I'd like to think I used to be a very petty bitter jealous man uh it got worse uh in success. So so first of all I worked in bars or restaurants um from the time I was 16 until I was 32, I believe. And I sold my first few things in my mid-20s I guess mid-give or take 2526. So I kept working for in in at the Abbey thank God for the Abbey quite frankly because it helped me pay my bills in a very real way because like a genuine asshole uh I got my first real check and bought a Lexus. I mean honestly I don't sorry you told me not to slap and I'm slapping I have to take my wedding band off. It's there okay there I'm now divorced. Um so you know I I I let me flash forward to 20 uh 20 for a second and then I promise I'll go back. My first show that got made was Dr. Death. That was my show right so I started writing in 2004. So it took me 16 years to get my own show made. In the meantime as I've said for a long time uh I would have made a hell of a used car salesman uh you wouldn't have realized that I sold you a piece of shit until you drove off the lot but I could sell anyone anything. So I was very good at selling things and then not getting them made when the rubber met the road um but I didn't know that. I didn't know what I didn't know. And so I sold a lot of stuff between 2004 and and the and 2007 the strike right um and I my ego was out of this world. I was a raving lunatic of an asshole. ICM uh asked me to staff they said will you go please go out for staffing so you can work on on what it's like to be in a room and you can work at all very great advice and I basically said off I am awesome I am going to have all these shows on the air why do I have to work for somebody else when all I can do is go out and sell like a maniac and um we got to the strike and I believe I had four or five shows positioned I had sold something like four shows and they were all in various stages of development but they were sold and we went into the strike and we came out of the strike and they all went away and in from 2007 until 2009 I couldn't sell shit like I tried and nothing would nothing would would would work I became extraordinarily depressed extraordinarily um uh downtrodden I just I was like clearly I'm done like nothing's going to happen for me my wife she wasn't my wife at the time but she became my wife she got a job uh working for USAID the agency for national development that moved us to Mongolia we live we we moved to Mongolia in 2009 and click I left ICM I signed with CAA uh couldn't sell anything and um and my wife was pregnant um I would just want to say she got pregnant as if I had nothing to do with it uh but we we got pregnant and uh my mother-in-law came to Ulumbater and to see us and uh I promised her that I was done with Hollywood. I said my wife is five months pregnant I said I'm I'm out I'm done I'm gonna join the State Department so that Ioli and I my wife's name is Ioli so Ioli and I can just be together we'll just travel the world we'll have our kid we'll have good careers but I'm done with this and I promise you I'll take care of your daughter and not that my wife needs any taking care of she takes care of herself trust me um but uh I put her on a plane I drove her to the airport put her on a plane back to the States and went to bed that night and I woke up in the middle of the night and I went to check our satellite phone which had had a message service on it and it was from CAA and they said please call us immediately swear to God this was within 12 hours of me putting her on the on a plane and I called them and they said Patrick there's a mini room opening for this show called Missing it wasn't called missing at the time it was called House of Mirrors or Hall of Mirrors or something like that. And I had done a general like eight months before with Gina Matthews and Grant Charbot who uh who were the executive producers of it and they said they want you to be in the in the mini room you have to be on a plane in 24 hours you have to be in LA in 36 hours will you go? And I and I hung up and I remember my wife like shuffling past it was early morning and she like shuffled past the the room I was in and then like back shuffled into frame and she looked at me and she goes what and I said I have to be in Los Angeles in 36 hours and I want to be clear and and I this is ridiculous. I'm getting emotional right now about this but from that moment until today my wife has never given me shit for abandoning her and my family at a moment's notice I used to joke around that my most valuable asset to the industry was that I was willing to abandon my family for a dollar. And that has been true for the last decade. And so I left I got on a plane I flew to Los Angeles from Mongolia and I got into this mini room I didn't have any money. We didn't have any money I was living in my office uh like pillow blanket sleeping on the couch in my office and that led to another room that never that never um went to Ceres and that led to Marco Polo with stars before it went to Netflix and eat for 18 months I lived on couches in my offices um and my wife went from Mongolia to Zimbabwe we got pregnant somehow again I don't know when we had sex again that it was possible for us to have a second child. And basically my wife has raised two children without me for the better part of the last decade because I've been on the road pretty much since since 2010. We've never lived in the same city or state or hemisphere for the better part of the last 10 years.

SPEAKER_04 32:57

It's amazing I might be a this might be a full circle moment because I'm pretty sure and maybe this she was on at a different period than you were but that our very first guest on this podcast Adele Lim was in the was on the show missing as well. So it's a very weird to like like uh bring that back.

SPEAKER_02 33:13

Uh Adele by the way is fundamentally a wonderful human being and um uh one of the one of the first people I she was in my first right the first room I was ever in right and and I remember working with her and being like so this is something I can do meaning that like being in a room it was a great room a wholesale I met my mentor in that room as well but like but Adele was one of those like just great wonderful individuals with great energy and so smart and knew what she was doing. I just watched her at every moment and she and she is a really good example she was I remember this so clearly there was one day that we that we broke for lunch and she had she had chat on one of my pitches before lunch and she knew that she that I was upset about it. And she came to me and she's like Patrick this is what it's about like we're gonna disagree we're gonna and we'll find our way through you got to let that go. And it was that and I remember that that brutal honesty was like so vitally important to me at a time that I needed it more than anything. So I I fucking love Adele.

SPEAKER_04 34:23

She actually mentored me on my very first script as well. So she she's amazing and she was our first guest but I want to talk about um well let's talk about mentorship and also pettiness a little bit because you you joke that sort of pettiness fueled you to start, right? That got you going and and I'm sure it sustained you for a little while but when you start to get success it's hard to be petty and and jealous. I mean maybe not maybe your the pettiness rises to whole new levels of pettiness where someone got a series and now you want a series someone got an Oscar and now you want an Oscar but you talk about mentorship as well and I'm we're trying to figure out like what sustained you what what kept you going paying the bills was what did this mentorship really help you get this through this 18 months like like like what powered you as a writer um it's complicated because I I think I mentioned the downward spiral of 2007 through 2000 greater 2010 give or take um because I am extraordinarily grateful that I didn't get success when I could have gotten it.

SPEAKER_02 35:35

I needed to be humbled um I I needed to be hurt uh in this industry um because I don't think I would be who I am today which I I'd like to think is a relatively decent person um if it weren't for that um what kept me going was that I genuinely don't know what else I can do. Right? Like I I'm I'm like I have always said and this isn't false humility it's really genuine that I'm a good writer uh I'm never going to be a great writer I'm never going to be a genius writer I'm I am I I like to joke around and say that I'm just dumb enough to be like successful in this business right like it there's um and and so I think some of it has just been that I don't know what else I could do. I think that some of it absolutely came from Jim Parriot who became my mentor um he is one of the most humble kind um hardworking um people in this industry that I've I've met he's got a long line of people who if you lined them up would say the same thing about him that that you know he you look at his IMDB page and you may not you may say okay well he didn't create very many shows but but he sort of did with all the people that that he took under his wing and helped over the years. And Jim's way of leadership in a room is is something that I've absorbed. I then went on to work for Dave Erickson who worked for Jim Perriott um and so I kind of got showrunner to showrunner of the same family basically right and Dave Erickson is very similar where they're both very deliberative. They are both very careful with their words they're very quiet in a writer's room they're listening and watching everything and then they speak when they feel like they have to and that was something that I've patterned myself after. I mean I know all evidence to the contrary right now but when I'm in a writer's room I am very very quiet. I love listening to people talk and pitch and I and I find running a room to be very similar to driving a car which is that you you don't ever want to yank the wheel hard in any direction. You want to gently nudge it and in the direction that you want to go or a boat, right? Just gently nudge it and it'll be a very big change by the end by the time you get there. But I what I learned from them was to be caring about people's ideas that it's not the end of the world if you go on a tangent for a while so long as you're constantly sort of nurturing people wanting to pitch and wanting to engage. And the worst thing that you can do is to say no that's a terrible idea or no one I'm sure people say that or a version that gives people that impression that that's a bad idea. I have a few rules in the room one of them is you can pitch something three times. You have the right to pitch something three times and then once it's said no to three times it's it's that's probably the end of it, right? So yeah, I mean I I I guess and then by the way then the last thing I'll say to this is that I've been excruciatingly fucking lucky in my career. Like at every you mentioned it to write the first script and have that happen lucky to write the second script to have that happen lucky to to be elevated to a showrunner when you have never run a set before which is what happened with Marco Polo lucky right there is no one who is talented enough and there is no one who is hardworking enough or a perfect combination of the two who deserves this career, who deserves this life. You are lucky to do this no matter how hard you work, no matter how talented you are and I say it all the time there are people out there who I know who I could name who are more talented than me and at least just as hardworking as I am who will never do what I do. And I know that already and that is sad to me. But I have been crushingly lucky in every turn. So I would be an ingrate not to have continued to pursue this and for any number of reasons. But I don't know. Does that answer your question?

SPEAKER_00 40:05

Totally can you tell that I'm yeah I have something to say about that I'm sure so I mean it's interesting that the sort of you talk about luck and leading to success but as is often the case on this podcast I I want to probe one of the moments where you probably didn't feel quite as lucky. So your wife is pregnant and literally an Elder Mongolia or maybe it was inner Mongolia um you're sleeping on couches because that's where you have to sleep you're living with having lied to your mother in law or at least misleading her misled her yeah at that point even though obviously it ultimately worked there must have been some moments when you shut the door of the office and tuck in the pillows on the couch and you probably spilled some coffee there earlier in the day and you're thinking what the hell am I doing?

SPEAKER_02 41:03

I I I wouldn't be telling you the truth if I didn't tell you that I cried every once in a while yeah absolutely um they were both the best thing that happened to me and the worst you know um again like I speak about my wife like I I we added it up one time that we had been apart for seven out of ten years. I mean we saw each other you know here and there every three months for a few days um I I've I missed most of the formative years of my my son's lives I missed every touchstone I I never saw them walk I never saw them give their you know say their first word I um I became a cliche and I knew it you know um and I was afraid of that honestly um no it was it was it it it again I I have a hard time not sounding ungrateful because I am I'm excruciating I'm so grateful um but yeah I was really sad and depressed and alone and and got to talk to my family for five minutes a day and so no I do I believe at the end of the day that it was worth it um I have to at best lie to myself and say yes um uh do I believe that when that day comes for me as it does for all of us that I'll look back with some deep abiding regret yeah uh yeah absolutely um and that's sad to know at this age uh that that I'm I'm gonna be facing that down. But um you know one of the promises that my wife and I made was that if we ever got divorced that that we would not leave one another for resenting one another for holding each other back. And she pursued her career and I pursued mine. And uh and someday uh we we hope to pursue careers in in the same space. But um I I think that day's that day's coming so I hope.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

So you go through all of this and obviously it doesn't take much to work out what it must have been like to go through the way you've described it. And as you say 16 years after you first started writing and selling things you get your own show you've got the show do you feel vindicated it was worth it now an enormous amount of pressure you don't fuck it all up and never get an opportunity. Like when you knew you had the final show and it's your show, what did that mean to you?

SPEAKER_02 44:01

It's a really, it's a it's a really, really good question again. So you've got you have two. Uh Noah is still Ofer, but you know, it's okay. I got it. Uh no. Um sorry, I'm trying to find uh some humor in my sadness right now. Um you know it's funny, when death happened, uh I had become very, very happy. And I mean this, I mean it like with being a number two, you know, um, as a showrunner up leading up to that point in time, I was really supporting creators' visions. Um, John Fusco on Marco Polo. I helped uh Eli Micah out on season two of Homecoming. Um, I was working with Brian Taylor and Grant Morrison on Happy. Um, and I was really happy. Like I can't explain it to you. I kind of think I fell into the Jim Perriet world, right? Where I was like, I have a good time helping people get their visions realized. Um and so I wasn't expecting anything out of Dr. Death. And if somebody told me in 2019 that I'd never have my own show, at that time I was perfectly fine with it. Like, really. It it it really, I was pleased with where I was and comforted with where I was. That being said, you know, Dr. Death was another turn of luck. I mean, I went up against a couple of heavy hitter writers for that job. Um, and and it was a podcast at the time, it hadn't even come out. So by the time that I'd like started developing it, it was nothing. It was just, it was literally not on the air. And then it suddenly became a phenomenon where 50 million people subscribed to it. And and suddenly I realized I had a beast on my hand. Um and so I guess again, I just came to a place, as I always have, of an immense gratitude. Um, I didn't fear that I was going to fail. I know that that probably doesn't sound right, but I just sort of felt like, look, I know how to do my job. Uh, I'm gonna do the best I can do. And whether people respond to it or don't respond, that's that's out of my hands, right? Like uh, you know, I think Emily's heard me say it a million times over the course of the last six months. I don't, I don't read reviews. Um, I didn't read until recently on Dr. Death, I didn't read reviews. Um and so I guess no, I I I didn't celebrate. Here's the thing. I'm sorry, I I this will sum it up for you, I think. One of the things I learned from Jim and from Dave was never was always fly um at altitude. Never fly high, never fly low. Just try to lead the least turbulent career you can have. Don't let your emotions take over. And I guess people have watched me, even in this in success, whatever modicum of success Dr. Depp has had, it's just we're on to the next one, right? And and we'll see, we'll see what happens. Um again, I don't know if I've answered your question or if I've just rambled.

SPEAKER_04 47:21

It definitely answered it for me. Uh, and you it made me think of something. You you come with a ton of experience. I mean, 16 years of TV writing. And you know, in my career, I know that we like to pretend we have control over our own careers, but we really don't have a ton of control, right? We we try the shows we try to get on, we rarely get on. Other opportunities pop up, you take it, you're just you're barely hanging in there, you know, at best a lot. And and but and you had a particularly hard journey, as you've been explaining, because of the family separation situation, which has to be hard on anyone. And is there anything now in retrospect, had you had uh control over it, that you would have done differently in this 16-year career to get you to the place you are now or get you to a different place?

SPEAKER_02 48:07

Absolutely. I yeah, the the one biggie that I wish that I had done is I wish I'd listened to to Kevin Karate, um my agent from the beginning and and staffed. Um, you know, I it's it's something that I staffed early because I would have had the I think I would have had the opportunity based on sort of my track record of sales that that I probably would have been able to get into a room earlier if I had really tried. Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. I guess we'll never know. But um, but I talk to, you know, we I work with writers all the time on their own things. And and I've and I see, especially young writers, I see myself in them almost all the time, which is this is my one. This is the one that is going to launch me, and I'm gonna this is the script that's gonna become the next biggest hit on TV. And look, you can't develop and write without thinking that you can make the show, right? That's the whole reason we do it. But my biggest piece of advice to writers over and over and over again is to learn from my mistakes. Um, go and get into a room as quickly as you possibly can. And if that means you get into a room as a writer's assistant, which is one of the most coveted jobs in Hollywood, quite frankly, or as it, or learn how to be a script coordinator, which is one of the most difficult jobs in Hollywood. So just so you can be near a room, or even a PA while you're writing, do it. Get into a room because that really the the writing and writing for television is a craft. If you want to write like true art, go move to a cabin in the woods and write your art, right? This is a craft, especially TV, is a craft. And you've got to hone it and you've got to learn it. You just you can't just do it. Um, some people are thrown, are thrown into it. There's no question about it. Some rise the occasion, some don't. Um, but for the majority, the vast majority of us, and I put myself in that category in a very real way, you got to work at it. You have to learn what to do and learn how to be. And and and there is no replacement for experience on that. So yeah, I I desperately, desperately wish that I could have gone, could go back in time and do that. But that being said, again, I I am nothing but lucky with every everything that happened to me since. So I guess it it semi-worked out in the end. We'll see. It could all be over now. Who knows?

SPEAKER_04 50:30

You you you in this answer, which which I love by the way, you partially answered our final question, which is if you have one piece of advice to an aspiring writer, what would it be? So that piece of advice of a side, is there any other advice you'd give you give somebody who who's just joining this industry in 2022 and is you know trying to figure out how to navigate it?

SPEAKER_02 50:56

Yeah, and this is gonna be um this advice is always uh something that gets debated very heavily when I talk about it in writers' rooms. And there isn't a single writer's room that I have uh that I've run in which this doesn't come up at some point in time. And it comes up usually pretty early. Uh, and that's this. You've got to figure out how to not take it personally. Um it is extraordinarily hard to do. You're an artist, you take offense. There's no way around it. But you gotta figure out how to channel that. And specifically what I mean by this is that unless you, you know, are bases as kid, or you've just won the Powerball, and you can open your own studio and you can privately finance your own productions, you owe something to the studio, and you owe something to the networks. And you have to keep in mind that while every single one of your semicolons is vitally important to you, they've read seven other scripts that day, watched four other cuts that day, listened to three other pitches that day, and that semicolon may have been missed. And it is extraordinarily important that you build a respectful, symbiotic relationship with the people who are paying your bills. It doesn't mean that you have to sacrifice your vision wholesale. It doesn't mean that somehow, in some way, this is, you know, if if you give in on this, it's somehow absolutely destroying the essence of who you are. Um, and it doesn't mean that you can't have, and to go back to what we started on politics and confrontation, it doesn't mean that you can't have a vigorous, respectful debate. But it also means that you can't just shut them out. And so, you know, I guess I'm giving advice because some of your listeners are at are going to be at a stage where they're selling things and they're gonna be going through that this this script noting process. Some might be staff writers who are dealing with their first official script that's being torn apart by a network or by a showrunner. Um, and some, who knows, maybe some are also you know experienced showrunners as well. I don't know. Um who probably are gonna disagree vigorously with me because I gotta be honest with you, it becomes a very thing in the writers when I say this. But I fundamentally believe it. And so if I can give that advice going forward in your career, try not to, you'll take it personally, but try not to let that out and really take their notes to heart. It doesn't mean you gotta do them, it just means you gotta you gotta at least engage.

SPEAKER_00 54:05

Extraordinary answer to end an extraordinary podcast. So look, Patrick, I think in some ways you've been almost uh the the perfect guest. You uh articulate and funny, and also, and we're grateful for this. You understood the sort of theme of the podcast and you know buried your soul and talked through the rejections and the failures in the diversity in a way that you know we and I think our listeners really appreciate. So thank you for that. Plus, also, I think you know, you're sharp enough and self-confident enough to recognize the difference in quality of the questions asked by the different hosts, and you gave that brutal feedback. And I think Noah really appreciates that. So, Patrick, thank you very much indeed for being part of our podcast.

SPEAKER_04 54:50

I'm pretty sure money exchanged hands before the podcast started.

SPEAKER_02 54:56

The Venmo just popped up. So, yeah, no, you're very welcome. It really has been a pleasure and honor. I appreciate you guys reaching out to me. And uh, and I will say this that if you've ever had me as a dinner guest, you would not say the same thing uh about me being the perfect guest. So, on that note, uh I I appreciate you guys. This is a really fun conversation.

SPEAKER_00 55:14

Excellent. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 55:16

Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 55:21

And that's a wrap on this episode of Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss. As always, we want to thank James Launch for the amazing theme music.

SPEAKER_00 55:30

Do you before we sort of thank our wives and stuff, do you think anyone actually listens this far, or do they stop when the music comes back in?

SPEAKER_04 55:36

I think they normally stop after you mention your second and third podcast. That'd be my guess. Well, I haven't mentioned them yet, though, have I. Uh if you do want to reach out with us to us for criticisms, complaints, or praise, uh, you can either reach out to us through the website or I am at nebslin on Twitter. And Dan, do you have an account?

SPEAKER_00 55:56

Not that anyone really cares about. So if you've got complaints about the show, go to NEBSlin and feel free to air those. If you have praise or you want to pay us in some way for something, come to at Dan Rutstein. And have a great day.