Take 22 - Writer and Showrunner Kira Snyder - Handmaid's Tale, The 100

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for shore, dozens of unproduced scripts littering the floor.

SPEAKER_04 0:13

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

For every success, there is months, sometimes even years, of hype failure. This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default.

SPEAKER_03 0:31

That's the norm. Unlike everything in our business, your hands get counted, it all bounces off you. That process takes place, that doesn't happen overnight.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

I was being told by my manager it's yours to lose. And I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking like, well, that's it for me. I blew my one-big shot. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss of podcast about rejection of failure and adversity in the entertainment industry. I am, as ever, one of your hosts, Dan Rotstein. Noah, how are you today? I'm doing great.

SPEAKER_04 1:12

I think we've talked about this before, but I have left Hawaii for the slightly colder uh Los Angeles, but we're happy to be back. I am thrilled to have our next guest, Kira Snyder, on the podcast. Kira is a longtime TV writer who's worked on such shows as Eureka, Alphas, The Hundred, The Handmaid's Tale, and is currently working as the creator and showrunner of the upcoming Demimond for HBO. Welcome, Kira.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

Thanks. Happy to be here. Uh just a quick clarification. I'm not the creator of Demimond. That actually is JG Abrams, but I am one of the three showrunners on that project.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

So it it wouldn't be a podcast about failure if Noah didn't get something wrong in the opening credits for one of the guests. So Kira, thank you for for being part of this. So we've you have actually you told us you've actually listened to about half of our episodes. I have. Actually, an enormous honor for us because you are so successful. But we're not we're not interested in your success today. You know what this is all about. What was you're having some great successes at the moment. So let's focus away from that. Can you it's gonna go straight in and tell us about the failure that you've had that has lived with you the longest.

SPEAKER_02 2:34

Oh, interesting. Um I I'm kind of in the middle of one right now, which we'll see how that shakes out. It's a it's a it's a movie project which I may have to may have to part ways with. Um but I yeah, the the the thing the thing that really struck me when I started listening to the to your uh to your podcast, I listened to Mark Bernardin's, and he had come from other industries. And I've also worked in various other industries before focusing on screenwriting and have not had a great deal of success in those other industries. So I've like I've sort of failed from a few uh different types of businesses from one to another. Um, so that stuck record. And then the the other thing that stuck record most recently is uh at the beginning of the pandemic, one of my first pandemic projects was to clean out my office like a lot of us did. And I found a stack of uh rejection letters from all the contests and programs that I had applied to and I'd held on to for some reason. And uh it was fun kind of going back through those. Um, and I'm not sure why I held on to them, just out of a sense of stubbornness, perhaps.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

So we're now gonna focus on this for at least a few questions. So how big is this? Are we talking? Are we talking like there's three letters at the bottom of a box, or have you got like a proper like 50 letters in a box?

SPEAKER_02 3:51

I'm somewhere between those, yeah. Yeah. It was it's it's probably a goodly stack of 10 to 15. Uh, because you know, when I when I I was transitioning from uh one industry to another, I was uh working in computer games uh and uh looking to move into screenwriting and uh applied as as as writers looking to break in do to you know the Warner Brothers program and the Nichols Fellowship and all those, you know, the the good reputable contests and programs and fellowships. And I just I just did not get in for a few years on end. Uh and of course that's stone, but I have a strong stubborn streak, so I held on to those letters. Uh and honestly, I think it just took my writing to get good enough to get in. Because I did get in. That that was my break into TV writing because I got into the Warner Brothers uh writers workshop um finally after a few years of not getting in. Um and that was also the year that I was physically in LA. So I'm not sure how I thought I would have made it happen when I was in Northern California. Um, but uh yeah, I mean, I getting rejected from those things, that was right. I looking back at some of those scripts, like, yep, these scripts were not up to snuff, and I had to kind of get those out of my system. What why do you think you kept them?

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Did you sort of secretly think I'm gonna keep these so when I'm very successful, I can look back and reflect on them on a podcast? Or do you just keep them because you're a hoarder of things?

SPEAKER_02 5:12

Or you know, I'm not sure why. I I I had forgotten I'd had them for one thing. I mean, it was it was you know, it was like deep in the in the drawer of of of random papers that we all kind of collect. Um, I'm not really a hoarder. Um, so so I was surprised to come across those. And and again, there there were other things in there. Like I I I'd written like um a like a terrible novel when I was a lot younger, and that didn't go anywhere either. So those letters are in there as well. So it's just a just a bit of a a snapshot of things that were tried and failed. I think I kept it just so as a reminder not to give up. I mean, as a reminder, like, okay, so this didn't work. Um, what can you learn from this uh and move forward? So yeah, I don't think I have any notion of dragging them out and talking about them to you and your audience today. Uh but I it was it was a thing I was surprised by in the early days of the pandemic and looking for for things to keep my keep my mind occupied.

SPEAKER_04 6:06

I'm I'm actually really glad we're talking about this because I think I saw someone post that it's fellowship season right now, and you know, so many of our listeners um apply to all of these things. And and we've I follow a lot of them on Twitter and they follow me, and I can see the the angst and the excitement when someone gets in and when someone doesn't. And most people don't. These fellowships are extremely hard to get into. And I think you know, people get discouraged when they start when over and over again they come in as a finalist or a semifinalist, but don't actually make the cut to get into the fellowship and hopefully start their career. So I have I have a twofold question. You had mentioned that you had, you know, with many years of of trying to get into these fellowships. How many years? That's a simple question. And number two, did you ever uh almost give up, like decide that I'm not, you know, eventually you said you got into the Warner Brothers one. Did you, you know, was there a moment where you almost didn't apply? How many years were you going to give yourself? What was what was your story behind you know keeping going as as these uh rejections mounted up?

SPEAKER_02 7:10

Well, part of that, part of the answer that is kind of my making making the pivot from one type of work to another. So I I worked on um uh a game, uh a failed game, uh at Electronic Arts called Majestic. And it was an alternate reality game, you know what those are. It's a it's a game that kind of blurs the lines between what's real and what's the game. The game would call you on your phone and you get emails from characters, and it's a very kind of pervasive game thing. Um, very much ahead of its time. There haven't really been a lot of commercial ones of those. Um and uh that but that was a game where it was a little bit like a TV show. Um, I didn't know it at the time, but we had what I now know as a writer's room. And the the game was very episodic. And there was another uh writer, um, I was the game designer and lead writer on this project, and we had another writer on it who um is, was and is a TV writer. She was on the original uh Beverly Hills 9020, the original Melrose Place. And she said, this whole thing that we're doing here, it's a lot like working on a TV show, that mix of collaborative creation, individual creation, because then we would go off and write our own pieces. And she said, if you happen to find yourself in LA, you might see about kind of dipping your toe into that. So that was kind of my awakening to TV writing. It's like, oh, maybe I might want to be doing this for a career, because I had been a drama writing major in college, playwriting was my focus. Um, so I'd only at that point started thinking about making making the change. And I was still in Northern California, so I was applying uh writing specs uh and applying and not getting in. Uh it was only when I really got to move down to LA. I moved down with work, um, which is the softest possible landing when moving to LA is when the company moved, uh company moved you there. And when I was here, I was able to really dig in uh on working on my scripts and also take advantage of all the things that LA has to offer. So now we have podcasts, um, you know, in early days of a podcast then as well. So I moved down in 2005. Um and uh decided to take it more seriously, making that change because I was working uh at a at Yahoo, uh in the game side of Yahoo, not doing interesting narrative games, very um, you know, kind of kind of the smaller casual game. So I wasn't, you know, super in love with my job at that point. Uh and I was in LA, kind of immersed in the entertainment industry, really focused on writing. Um, and that was the year, so I applied kind of that cycle or two for the programs and the fellowships. And I got in in 2000, in the fall of 2006. So I was in LA for a year. Um, I had failures up to that point, uh, and I and I got in, but the same script that got me into that one got rejected by other programs. So it really just goes to show people who get frustrated and they when they apply it, it's it's such a matter of taste. So I definitely hear that frustration that you talked about.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

Um, you so once you're in and you're you're in rooms and you're a real writer, as it were. Because it's so hard to get in, and because you'd already had some rejections up to that point, plus you'd worked on games that had failed, were you more sort of guarded and circumspect about whether the shows you were working on were gonna work? Because you've sort of seen rooms happen and then a product that didn't work come out of them.

SPEAKER_02 10:35

It actually took a bit of learning on on my side. Um, I now I think, especially now, the industry is is uh has has changed quite a bit, even from so I start I I got my first TV job in 2007, which was a while ago, but not that long ago. Uh and the industry has changed quite a bit, kind of just even in that time. So at that time, though, the the the the utter uncertainty and the nomadic nature of being a TV writer, like that's something I had to get my head around because I had come from basically corporate America where you're at a company for years. Um, you know, and uh, you know, uh when my when my my game, the game I was working on folded, um, you know, I could have probably found another uh another job in that company on a on a different game. I ended up going to a different company. Um, but sort of like professional uncertainty was very new to me at the time. Uh and so in my first show, uh, which was um a vampire detective show on CBS called Moonlight, which was not the moonlight you're thinking of, uh it was originally called Twilight, and it's not that one either. Um, it was uh that was my first job coming out of the Warner Brothers program. And uh it was uh it was a very bumpy year uh in part because that project was uh we had we had like four showrunners in one season, and that was the year of the writer's strike. Uh and so that was a little bit bumpy. So that was a show that came back after the strike. Not a lot of shows did. We were pretty fortunate in that sense. Um, and then the show got uh canceled, and I I found out me and my my co-writer of that show, we found out the show got canceled uh while we were in color timing and post-production for the episode, and we were just like looking through our phones and like he said, huh. And there was a thing in variety uh uh in the trades about how our show got canceled. We're like, well, that's not great. Let's let's continue with the episode. And we were both so excited because we were both staff writers. This is our first episode of TV. Uh, and this was pretty late in the season, so it's different now. Back then was still very much staffing season was the time to get a job, and there was a little bit of cable year-round, but not a lot. Uh, and so we had missed our chance to actually meet and possibly get staffed on another show. Um, so that was the question for me. Like, uh, do I go back to Yahoo? And do I ask for my job back? Do I kind of just double down on the writing and stick with it? Um, and you know, live off my savings because I'd been very careful to, you know, to build up some savings. And that's what I did. I mean, I, you know, I there was there were no jobs to be had uh for months. So I I know I wrote another pilot and I wrote a spec feature, and um I think I wrote an and maybe an episodic spec as well. And then uh, you know, come October, I got submitted to Eureka because they were bringing on some new writers. Um and that worked out well, and happily I've been up and running ever since. But that that kind of like concern and fear, like you're and then Eureka, I was on for two seasons and it got canceled. Um, and I was on for alphas for one year and it got canceled. And I was on another show for stars, which they had basically a mini-room, and that it that did not go forward. So it's it's it's kind of understanding the churn of what it means to be a T-writer. Uh, I'm still kind of getting used to it, but it was it was hard those first couple years.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

So you Handmaid's Tale that's kept going. So is that is that the show that you've been on that's lasted the longest?

SPEAKER_02 14:08

Uh well, so it that's a show that I've been on personally the longest. I was on I've been I was on that show for the first four seasons. The the new season's gonna be airing um uh this week, in fact, starts airing on April 28th. Uh the show that I've been on that the show I've been on the longest was actually the hundredth. The hundred went seven seasons, which is fantastic. I was on for the first three seasons, and then I moved to go to to work on the handmaid's tale. So, yeah, I mean, and that that I mean, three seasons on one show, that was amazing. I was just thrilled. And now three seasons is long for like any show's life at all, which is crazy to me.

SPEAKER_00 14:40

So obviously, Handmaid's Tale, extraordinary show. Given that what's been going on the last year or so, do you now wish that you'd made it more bleak and more dystopian? Because I've caught up with it a bit in the last year.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

Oh my gosh. Yeah. And and yeah, the the the way the show has completely unintentionally um been a bit of a mirror of the world has been wild. Because of course we write it long before it's it's shot, right? So there's these strange coincidences that have that have happened as the shows come out. Um we uh we we did not have a pandemic uh in in the handmaid's tale, although in in the book, it's actually it's a kind of a there there is a pandemic that is uh one of the causes of the fertility crisis in Market Atwood's original novel. So there is one, there is a pandemic in the handmade universe. Um but yeah, it's uh, you know, it we and the show, some of the criticism of it's like, wow, that's it's awfully, it's awfully bleak, and we're kind of like, have you looked around? I mean, it's not a rip from the headline show, but uh we work the show has worked really, really hard to make sure everything in it is uh based on reality. Um, either something that has happened before in history or it's happening now in real life. And that that was one of Margaret Atwood's um one of her guidelines in writing the novel as well that we've carried through into the show.

SPEAKER_04 16:04

We had um Jose Molina on the podcast a while back, and we talked about briefly taking your work home with you. I think he was on Special Victims Unit where you you have these really intense episodes where it affects you. Now, I'd have to imagine the handmaid's tale, because of the mirroring of what was going on in the last four years, was affecting the writer staff. And my question is about your support system. Like what what what happens when you take those stories home? Who are do you have a system in place where you can decompress not only about what you're writing, but also about the ups and downs of this industry?

SPEAKER_02 16:39

Absolutely, yeah. And that's such a good question because it definitely has changed the you know the the the um the kind of the soaking in those kinds of stories and the world we live in from the life of the show. Like so the show, we were working on it in 2016, uh, Hemicell season one. Um that was before the election, it was before the primaries. Um, and I mean, I don't know about you all, but we thought the show would be coming out under a different administration and it would be this this cautionary tale, like, whoa, that's that's a bullet dog, that could never happen here. And as it turned out, we came out in a very different political moment, and it ended being like insanely relevant. And we would much rather have the show been less relevant and a different administration, but we had what we had. Um, and so yeah, so we so the kind of the the the the uh the emotional um weight of working on the show changed dramatically, uh certainly for me, year over year. Um, because as you might imagine, all the people working on the show, we are news junkies, we're political junkies, we are very aware of what's going on. So the first chunk of every day would be you know, ranting and venting and and and fretting and getting fired up, and then we would move from that dystopia that we had little control over to a dystopia we actually did have some control over, which in a way was a little bit more soothing because at least we could kind of determine what happened there. Um, but it was hard. I mean, honestly, it it it was hard. I mean, you know, we're writers, you know, you know, we're all we're we're sensitive people, and we want to take that onto the page, but it does have a weight on you, as Jose talked about. Um, and so for me personally, that was one of the factors in deciding to move on after season four. Um, love the show, so grateful to have worked on it and and the people I've met and been involved with something that special. Um, but you know, when I was making that decision in the spring of last year, uh, early pandemic times, and I'm like, I I feel like in addition to this being an amazing new opportunity to move to, I feel like it's a it's the right thing for me, kind of emotionally and mentally to to be in a different space for a while, um, to kind of get away from a dystopia and play in a different world for a while. So, yeah, in terms of uh of support networks, um, and I'm so glad you bring that up because that's one of the things I really try to encourage, you know, up-and-coming writers I speak to, is that writing feels like a very um, like I just do it. My name I'm just writing at home. I'm I'm I'm a I'm a lone writer. And it's so uh it's very collaborative, even in screenwriting, but definitely in T-Ro writing. And also it's really, really hard. So that support network, and that could be your family, it is it is for me, um, my husband, and these these two cats we were talking about, um, they're not very helpful. They're just they're just cats. Um, but uh and friends as well. So, you know, as as you move through your career, um, maybe the show didn't succeed, but you pick up a couple of really good friendships and you stay in touch with those people. And you if they're people that are at your level, and I also really recommend that, you kind of go through the your careers together and you are complaining about the same stuff and worrying about the same stuff. So, you know, I have a couple of group texts with um groups of friends, and yeah, that's really especially now in these strange pandemic times, it's been really grounding to have that. So I I really encourage people to who are who are writers looking to get into writing to um to to resist the temptation to be isolated and heads down because you're really I mean, for your mental health and for your creative health, you need to be engaging with other people.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

So you mentioned that in moving on that your new show, you're one of the show runners. Now, given a combination of your experience on Handmaid's Tale, not how the show was run, but the things you were working on, given all of the things that have just happened to people because of the pandemic, given also all the things that are coming out in Hollywood about uh shows not being run well and people not being treated properly, as you sit down to plan how you're gonna run your room and how you're gonna do this show, how much time are you devoting to non-show things in the sense of mental health, people's welfare, that part of it? And I don't know, it's difficult to compare, but and how would that have been different in terms of percentage of time spent on that from when you sat down as a writer in someone else's room, you know, a few years back?

SPEAKER_02 21:03

Yeah, so the other two showrunners on this, so obviously JJ is working on the show, but he he's a busy guy, he's got a lot of things going on. So running the show uh I is myself and uh Far Shariat and Rand Rabbit, who co-created life and have done a bunch of other amazing things. Um and and they're great. So the three of us are kind of this, you know, this this trio that will be running the show. Um the show is at a stage now where they're we're we're only starting to kind of get into some of the things you're talking about in terms of um uh you know dipping up duties and whatnot. Um, but that that kind of management of of uh of a staff and you know people's emotions and their mental well being, yeah, I I find and again I came in from another industry, so I've managed groups before. That's part of being a leader, um part of being a boss, if you will, um, and just kind of looking out for the people that are working with you, those that that that's then you know that that's part and parcel of that. Uh it's harder uh in over. Zoom because the kind of things that you sort of take for granted when you're in an office, just like you know, popping your head in someone's office and saying, hey, just like like actually checking in. How's it going? Um, you know, you know, being able to sense that someone may have been struggling in the room or has something they want to talk about, kind of popping in afterwards. What we're doing here, like in in Zoom, it's it's so formalized, you have to schedule a meeting. And there's there's no there's no kind of like easy popping in and checking in. So we're still trying to do that. We're doing like you know, it's kind of scheduled, um, you know, scheduled uh, you know, check-ins every so often. Um, and again, that's that's a carryover from me from having been in other industries. And uh it's funny because that that's not really so much part of the the mode of of uh of TV. And I've I've definitely had the experience of people sort of not being clued in why the share owner wants to meet with them and having a bit of a panic attack, like, oh, they they want to be with me tomorrow. Like what the why? What's going on? It's like you can sort of say, hey, you know, we'll be doing one-on-ones with everybody over the next couple of weeks, just check in how you're doing, um, offer some feedback, um, setting those contexts is is really helpful. So yeah, I it's it's it's gonna be it's gonna be interesting. I mean, it's uh I think the things that'll be challenging are they as you know you've had showers on on uh on the podcast before, it's a it's a it's a big, big job. Um the show is a big show. Uh there'll be plenty of work for everyone to do, uh, and we'll kind of just we'll just sort of figure it out. I mean this this the process so far has been has been really great. I mean these are great guys. We have brought in a couple of additional writers um in the fall, and they've been terrific. So um, yeah, we're excited.

SPEAKER_04 23:32

I'm really glad that Dan brought up the old and new Hollywood paradigms that's going on here because you know, I feel like, and I think we've all felt it, that there has been a seismic shift in the attention being given to these more sort of sort of the toxic behavior is not okay anymore. And I feel like this conversation's been going on for years, and it kind of maybe got lip service where they'll be like, haha, these are things going on, we have to be better, and maybe people aren't necessarily better because they weren't taking it as seriously, that they that it's not, you know, that that taking care of your staff or being a show owner who cares, there's all these different elements to running a show that some people weren't very good at, and some people weren't fit necessarily to be at sort of the top of you know this group of people running all of this stuff. Um, so are do you feel like right now we are at this sort of this this shifting point where that people who are running shows have to take it more seriously at risk of their career, but also that it's breeding a different type of showrunner who has to take sort of like like um emotion, like their writers' emotions more into you know consideration as they're working?

SPEAKER_02 24:44

I sure hope so. I mean it has there has been a sea change over the last several years, um uh certainly, certainly with with the Me Too movement and social aggressive, but also more recently, um kind of the more toxic bullying behavior, things that you know someone's behavior reported is out is literally criminal, but at minimum would never be uh I when I would hear some of these stories coming in from working in technology, I'm like, how would they would call the police, like you wouldn't, or you would get fired. Like you cannot read just the it and everyone's experience is going to be different. And uh, you know, I goodness knows there's there's bad actors and bad cultures and sadly, probably most industries. Um, but it's it's gratifying to sort of see that that shift turning. It's probably not turning quite as fast. Um, I I do hope that the people that are moving up are um kind of I hate to say taking the right lessons from having a bad work environment. Um, because sometimes you hear like, oh, you know, people came out of a bad work culture and then they perpetuate that. Like, I, you know, if it was hard for me, it's gonna be hard for you. Um, and I that's obviously terrible and and wrong. Um, I think folks that are coming up that uh even if they had a bad experience, take that as a, okay, well, I'm not gonna do that. Uh, you know, having a commitment uh going into working on something to have um a different experience. Uh I do wonder, and there are I I don't know if this is something the guild could help with, kind of getting a real sense of like how endemic the problem really is, how many bad showrunners there really are, it's really hard to tell because there are stories, tons and tons of stories, but I also know lots and lots of good stories, lots and lots of people, um, uh, you know, good showrunners who uh, because they're good showrunners, kind of engender more good showrunners. Like you look at people who come out of certain camps where the person at the top of the heap um is someone who's legendarily good and kind and respectful and empowering, and people who come up in those people's shows, they go on to do that on their own shows. And so that's that's happening. Um it could never happen fast enough. Um, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

It's interesting. One of the things we've talked about before on this show, and I hope I'm not going to offend all the showrunners, is often showrunners are not brilliantly qualified to be showrunners. Uh, because it's a different skill set from being an amazing writer to actually, you know, basically, as you say, being a manager or a leader of two or three hundred people. And it's interesting you've come from uh it's less about the fact you've come from tech, but more the fact you've come from a, for want of a better expression, a real company, a grown-up company. Because I I was in government for years and I managed a team, uh, a big team, I had 80 people in my team, and I'm used to all of the uh things you do. Staff objectives, weekly catch-ups, all that stuff. And then when I've moved into the private sector, not in the entertainment industry, but no one does any of this stuff. Um and it seems very odd that they don't. And you can see how, and I'm lucky to work in companies where there's no bad things happening, but you can see how they could be because no one's controlling anything. So are you weirdly actually not just because you're a brilliant writer who's been through all of this, but actually because you've had a real job in a real company, that you're a uh perhaps a better showrunner for having generic leadership and management skills as well as an entertainment background now?

SPEAKER_02 28:16

Uh I certainly hope so. Um I mean we'll find out. Uh I I I do feel like that I I do feel like those skills, I I have those skills. I mean, I I I I was older than your average um staff writer when I started as a staff writer. I had come in and I already managed not teams as big as Eurozan, but you know, cross-functional teams, big personalities, tight deadlines, you know, intense, you know, you know, crunch time schedules. Like, you know, I knew how to work with a variegated team on a deadline to create something. Um, you know, and uh you know, engineers plus designers plus artists, like those are lots of different personality types. So I I felt like I that that was a benefit coming in. But yeah, the fact that like, I don't know, like the idea of 360 reviews, like I think everyone in Hollywood like would like they'd be like, what is that? It's such a and for those of you who don't know what that is, that that's a review process where you get you were where you were you are reviewed by everyone kind of in your work sphere. So people who report to you, people who to whom you report, and people who are your peers, and you get a really good picture of how someone is performing that way. Um, there's nothing like that in Hollywood, and I really think there ought to be.

SPEAKER_04 29:24

I have a question about sort of the the nature of all of our beings, I guess, in this industry that we had Jeffrey Lieber on, and he we talked kind of jokingly about his therapist and lost and all of these different things. And but we got to kind of at the core of like, is this your soul's work? And are you happy? And I know writers, it's the weird dynamic where this is the only job you can do. This is where you're absolutely the happiest, but it can also make a lot of people extremely miserable. And I'm curious what you think about that duality and why we all struggle so much in this particular field emotionally.

SPEAKER_02 30:01

Yeah, I well, for myself, it's because I uh, you know, I I care so much. Um, you know, I it the like a lot of your guests have had, you know, I've I've had you know jobs I didn't book, I've had movie rewrites I didn't get hired on, I've had pilots that I've sold but didn't go, I've had pilots that I've pitched but didn't go. Um and uh that that hurts every single time, it's frustrating every single time, it causes kind of doubt insecurity every single time. Um, but then you need to kind of fall in love all over again with the next thing. Like that's that's that's the job. And so understanding the the resilience it takes to do that. Um, you know, I'm still I still I'm still going through that. Like I mentioned this thing up uh uh to Dan's first question. Like, you know, there's a there's a this this uh movie uh I was hoping to um to I I've been pitching it, it's a it's an adaptation of a book that I have um the the shopping rights to. And no one bit. It's like and and it's you know, I I I put some of my own money behind this thing, and uh it's something that I dearly love. It's a book that I've loved for years. Um, you know, people, you know, they like the pitch, they like me, they like my enthusiasm, my enthusiasm about the project, they just didn't want to buy it. And I'm at the point now where I'm like, I think I need to let it go. And that it it hurts. And I also feel like that's you know a mistake I made. Like I went out with it as a pitch, maybe I should have spec'd it, maybe I should have taken that year and written the script, and then I could have sold the script. But now, you know, a matter of the you know, the rights being up, uh, and honestly, my kind of my my time and my energy are I don't think I can kind of commit to writing it another, like writing a sketch, a spec script. Um, so I've let this thing go. And it's I have been living with it, you know, the off and on uh for the last you know couple, two, three years and actively working on the last year, and I just have to let it go and maybe come back to it after some time has passed. Um, but then I need to fall in love with the next thing and and you know make that as good. Uh you gotta throw your heart into it every single time. Um and maybe you need some space, uh, but you know, the the the the new thing is uh always the thing to be pursuing.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

I don't I can't remember who it was now. I remember reading a thing from an actor around, I think he said that everything he works on is the most important thing. Because if you don't treat it like that, then it you'll never get anywhere in your career.

SPEAKER_02 32:29

Yeah, that was Mads Mickelson. And that I read I saw that too, and I thought it was so brilliant. Because yeah, his his point was don't think about things as stepping stones to the next thing. And uh it's like really just yeah, make the thing you're working on the most important thing in the world. And I think it's so genius because that means you'll kind of ideally you'll always kind of be satisfied because you've thrown your whole heart into the next thing. And then you know, for us as writers, and you know, probably for him as an actor as well, you need to be thinking about probably like the next thing, um, not five things down the road. Um, but uh I thought that was brilliant. I was I I just really love that observation of his.

SPEAKER_04 33:02

Yeah, I was gonna make the same comment where that an actor maybe can live in that moment way more than a writer can. And for people who don't fully understand our process, you could be unless you're on staff on a show, which is sort of all-consuming, if you're in development, or even if you see your staff, you know, the the end, the writings on the wall, your show's been canceled, you only have one or two months, you have to begin stacking projects. You have to begin pitching and preparing and developing, and you don't know what's gonna land, and it becomes a sort of endless grind of like reaching far out into the future, hoping that at least one of them is gonna pay your bills. And maybe that's connected to why it's just so like you said, you put your heart into all of these things, and one by one, your heart gets cut into little pieces because the reality is the majority of these shows just don't go.

SPEAKER_02 33:47

That's exactly right. And the other the other takeaway I had from from um from his point, and and this does fit for for for writers, is I completely agree. No, you have you do have to be thinking about a few projects and have to have them stacked up because that's just the reality of the work that we're in. Um but the other thing he says, make it the most important thing, which means like don't take on something just to take it on. Don't, you know, it don't just say yes because someone asked you to do something. Like you have to, you have to know that you can fall in love with it. Um otherwise it's gonna it'll it'll come across in how you're talking about it, or in success, you'll be chained to this thing that you're not in love with for for you know years. I I I have one one pitch story which is I I don't know if it's entirely unique, but it certainly was a first for me and I've not heard it repeated. So I I was uh attached, uh I was I was pitching a book adaptation with this set of producers, and uh we were got you know got all the pitch all worked up and we were you know sit sitting in the the lobby of this of the uh of the studio about to go into the pitch and uh they they got there a little bit before me, the producers did, and then I came in and and uh had a couple minutes to spare. And how's it going? You know, get it, and they kind of were shooting each other looks, and I'm like, what? So it turned out that the night before the television uh wing of this particular production company shuddered. The guy in charge is like, we're not gonna be doing TV anymore. Um, we're not we're not pursuing any more TV projects. And so basically the the company kind of folded as I was about to go into pitch uh a thing for the company. And and they're like, oh yeah, but the student still wants to hear the pitch. And I was thinking, how, firstly, how would that work? And secondly, they weren't gonna tell me. They they said, well, we weren't sure whether to tell you because we thought we might rattle you. I'm like, yeah, it's gonna rattle me. There's no home for this thing. It's a it's a it's a you know dead pitch walking. Um and I would have been the only person in that pitch who knew this had who would not have known this thing had happened because the studio knew this this the this this shingle had shuttered, the producers knew it had shuttered. Uh, it would have been me, the poor, you know, schmuck writer, like pitching my heart out, not knowing this. So they told me I did the pitch anyway. It was very weird. Uh, it did not sell, of course. But my other big takeaway from that is I I realized in retrospect, like, yes, all that happened, but this, this, this, this property, like, I made it work because you know, maybe it comes from my kind of my my game design background, my puzzle solving background. Like, I figured out a way to make it work as a show. But deep in my heart of hearts, I didn't love it. And so in success, I would have been attached to this thing for years, feeling kind of not all in on it, which you know is probably a blessing in disguise. It did not feel like a blessing at the time. It was, it was, it was, it was pretty awful.

SPEAKER_00 36:36

Amazing story. Like you take a step back, it is ridiculous. You're trying to sell something to someone who could never buy it, however well you do, and no one was gonna bother telling you, and that somehow is okay. I think we're gonna I think we're gonna make a list of reasons why uh projects don't go. We've heard some extraordinary ones. I think that's another new we keep finding new ways in which it will happen.

SPEAKER_02 37:01

Yep, the company just uh holded up their their TV side.

SPEAKER_00 37:04

So I'm slightly this is meant to be a podcast about rejection and failure, but I'm gonna ask this question anyway. So uh Noah's got Noah's very pleased with himself because he asked the other day a guest if they were happy in their life, um, which was a brilliant question, actually. And he just asked it again. And so you know, I can't have too much happiness, but we're at a little bit. But here's a sort of related one, which is uh obviously you've worked on lots of different projects. Which one and this to use Noah's and and Jeffrey Lieber's sort of soul question, which one filled you up the most? Not necessarily had the most commercial success or helped your career the most, but of all the projects that actually went, which I know is only a small percentage of the ones you worked on, sure is. Um which one just that one that you worked on just made you feel the most fulfilled as the writer that you want to be?

SPEAKER_02 37:57

Sure. So uh I'm actually gonna give you two answers. The the the short answer briefly is the one I'm working on right now, but I since I can't talk about that, I will I will give it uh another answer. Um I I do, I'm I'm I'm so thrilled and excited and grateful for what I'm working on right now. Um I look forward to talking about it at some point in the future. Um but uh but the other one um I think would be uh would be Eureka. So that was uh my second show, the first one that the this is the show that I got staffed on after almost a year of not working. Uh and uh so and there's a few there's a few reasons for that. Uh one was uh just the show itself. Um if people aren't familiar with it, it was this kind of warm sci-fi dramedy on the sci-fi channel. Um uh and it was funny and it was smart. I'm a big science nerd. It was an excuse to look up cool new edgy fringe science things and come up with funny stories about them. Um, the characters were great. Um, it was this kind of like, you know, yes, some crazy science thing was always the dilemma of of the week, but it was also the solution. So it was like science positive and it was like low-key diverse and inclusive. Um, you know, before it has the attention deservably that those things do now. Um so the show was really a delight to work on and very fun. Um and uh the other thing was the people I work with. Uh it was a fantastic staff. Um, everyone's gone on to you know amazing success, success and careers. I've had the good fortune of working with some of them off and on, uh, as our as our kind of our um you know uh billiard ball careers kind of intersect uh um uh over the years. Um it just it was a it was a lovely staff, um a really great uh work culture. Um the the you know the the folks that that ran the show uh had a really healthy attitude about um uh work and life and emotional balance. Uh we had a lot of fun. We did Secret Santa stuff. I mean it was it was just a really great office space to be in. Um and yeah, so that was that was one that really kind of filled me up. And and then then this is just I I this was a just a small thing, but something that I would always still think about kind of pretty much every day. So this was this their offices, our offices were on uh the Sunset Gower lot. Uh, and that's a lot if you've been on where there's a big parking garage, and then you know, all the all the buildings you have to kind of walk across the lot a bit to get from the where you park to to where your offices are. And as you're walking across the lot, um, if you look to from the from the parking garage to the offices, if you look to your right, you can see the Hollywood sign. And that always it still gives me a little thrill. It's like it still gives me a little thrill. And it did that and so get to getting to see that every day was like, that's that's pretty great. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 40:49

I worked on that same lot for years, and I had the same thrill every day, how perfectly framed that Hollywood. And you forget you're in Hollywood. You I mean, I'm from Hawaii, so when we were first here, it was like over in Hollywood and blah blah blah, and you just forget, and then you have moments. And I had two moments on that lot, one where I I I I bumped into I don't know him at all. I'm not named off me because I know him, but I literally slammed into a man and I look up and it's Aaron Sorkin, who was just doing uh news media or something at that point uh on that same lot, and uh and he looked at me, saw like the recognition on my face, and he could just see that yeah, I'm Aaron Sorkin, and he we didn't say any words. The second time I was just wandering to a food truck, I'm like, Oh, I'm just really hungry. And standing next to me was uh Quentin Tarantino because I they were doing eight full eight on that lot as well. So I'm like, you forget, you just get so lost in your whatever you're doing, and then you're like, you have a Hollywood moment, and that those two were were definitely Hollywood moments, framed by the Hollywood sign in the back, and you're like, wow, this is this is kind of cool. This is maybe why we we love it. I don't know. Um, this is all my very long-winded way of getting to our final question, which since you've listened to our podcast a number of times, you know what's coming, but what is one piece of advice that you would give to an up-and-coming writer uh who's trying to get into the business today?

SPEAKER_02 42:10

Um, so yeah, I did listen to uh I had listened to a bunch of these and uh so much good advice. A lot of the advice I often give had already been covered, so I was thinking about something different. Um uh I mean I you know your whole podcast is about about cultivating resilience, which is something I I often uh tell people. Um, you know, finding or building uh a community of peers is another one, but but the one I I was thinking about specifically, and I was kind of thinking about some of the things that I, you know, I my own experiences and that I hopefully is relevant to your listeners is to look for the good in every failure, like every mistake, every failure. Um, there's there's something good to take away from it. And you might have to dig a little bit. Sometimes it's like, well, I'm not gonna do that again. Um, that's also learning, but there's always something. I mean, you know, if a show gets canceled, you meet really great people, like I talked about. Um, uh, you you learn about the industry. You learn, like, okay, so you know, this is a thing that's not gonna sell this year. Maybe it will next year. Maybe I need to, you know, work on something that I also love. Um, you learn more about your own writing. Um, uh for me, you know, it's and we have to be, we have to be careful with our time as writers, because as we all know, and other other guests of yours had have indicated, you know, the industry will definitely exploit us for our free labor. The whole idea of like pitching for free, like all the work it takes to like work up a pitch, work up a take, like I hate that word. It's a take. It's like, no, no, no, you're you're asking me to figure out your story and somehow convey it to you in like 15 punchy minutes. That's really hard. Um, so you have to practice, you know, being guardful with our time. But every time I've worked on a pitch that didn't go, and a lot of them haven't, um, I've had practice-breaking stories. So my own writing, my own storytelling gets better the more times I do that. Um, or sometimes the the the good and the failures that you know, a story to tell folks like you guys on podcasts. And the other thing about looking for the good in in every failure is not just the actual takeaway in the lesson, but I also think it's kind of attitudinal. Um, it is really easy to get burned down, uh, burned out, uh, tired, jaded, frustrated, uh, God help us cynical. Um, and that that kind of that energy, that darker energy, like that shows up on the page. That definitely shows up in meetings, that shows up in the room. Um, so if you're actually looking for the good, like that's your that kind of um, you know, optimism, you know, positivity, um wanting to fall in love with a thing, like that, you know, that that energy is is something that you want to bring into um each assignment, each room, uh, each show.

SPEAKER_00 44:45

Brilliant. Ciara Snyder, designer of at least one failed computer game. Thank you very much for being part of our podcast.

SPEAKER_02 44:54

Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 44:56

Thanks, Kira.

SPEAKER_02 44:57

Thanks, take care.

SPEAKER_04 45:01

All right, that does it for us today. I want to thank you for tuning in to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss. If you have any questions or comments, you can reach out to me on Twitter. I am at Nebslin.

SPEAKER_00 45:13

Wait, are we are we not bothering to talk about the other Twitter account, given we have this great social engagement that people never bother to actually include me, whose idea it was to do this podcast in the first place. You have a Twitter account? I do have a Twitter account. It's at Dan Rutste. And not only Noah do I have another Twitter account, I also have two other podcasts. And I've some of our listeners have been saying, Dan, please tell us about your other podcasts. So our other podcasts are what are my other podcasts? Oh yes, United States of Dramerica, where I share a glass of whiskey and have a fascinating conversation. And America the beautiful game, where I talk about soccer in America and what it can learn from Europe.

SPEAKER_04 45:55

For our repeat listeners, uh, you can probably stop listening when Dan starts talking about his second and third podcast. Uh, that brings us to the end of another great episode. We, as always, want to thank our wives for putting up with our nonsense.

SPEAKER_00 46:11

That's good.