Take 39 - Producer Andy Horwitz, Suicide Squad, Triple Frontier

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for shore, dozens of unproduced scripts littering the floor.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Sometimes even one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default to be able to first.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

I was told by one I promptly lost it. Well, that's it for me. I one point thought what I've realized, but that won't it's never one point thought. There won't be other thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyssal podcast about rejection of failure and adversity in the entertainment industry. I'm back in the closet literally, and I'm Dan Rotstein. Welcome, Noah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Nothing shows the glitz and glamour of Hollywood than watching Dan record from his own closet. Uh we're switching things up today by bringing in a movie executive and producer on Taraj Our Show. I'd like to introduce Andy Horowitz. Andy is the current executive vice president of Atlas Entertainment and is known for his work on the Hollow Point, American Hustle, the original Suicide Squad, and Triple Frontier, as well as a number of other projects currently in development. Also, you obviously can't see him, but he has way better tattoos than I do. Welcome, Andy.

SPEAKER_03 1:45

Welcome. Thank you. Thank you for having me. My I'm gonna go tell my wife you said that she has way better tattoos than I do. So I will tell her that I got a tattoo compliment. Because every time we go out, she gets the tattoo compliments, and I'm just sort of sitting there letting her get her compliments while I try to show off my arms in the background so people notice me.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Fantastic. So we normally, well, not normally, a vast majority of our episodes have been TV writers talking about their failures. So now we've got a movie producer to talk about his. I guess in relative terms, are yours better, worse, more frequent hit harder than the TV writer ones that you've been hearing about on the podcast before?

SPEAKER_03 2:34

I think it's probably pretty equal. You know, I think both TV and film producers and writers I think fail equally. Um I think the the movie failures I think probably happen more often, and that's often because movies sometimes cost more money to make than TV series do, and sometimes the studios are taking a bigger swing and a bigger risk. Um, but uh but no, I think they're pretty they're pretty even ground. I honestly think that they they probably both fail on equal equal terms.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

So with your failures, this is such a nice way to introduce it, but your failures, presumably most of your failures are the thing not being made, as opposed to it being made and then going horribly wrong.

SPEAKER_03 3:20

Uh yeah, I mean, I you know, producers spend 98% of their career uh trying to get things made that never get made. I think most of what we do on a daily basis is is attempt to get things made. And as I always tell people, you know, producers are are failing all over town every single day. You know, we have we, of course, we have we believe in things, we take them as far as we can, and oftentimes we're told no uh many, many times a week, and way more times than we're told yes. But we try and I try as hard as I can just just sort of remember remember uh you know saying that someone told me at the very beginning of my career, which was, you know, you could be told no a hundred times, but all it takes is one yes, and and none of those no's mean anything. So um, you know, producers, I think, like I said, we we spend our days uh just being told no. We we get told no on sending scripts to directors that they say no to. We get told no on taking pitches out, and half the time we get told no on those, we get told no on spec scripts that we send out. Um, you know, we get we get told no a lot. I think producers, most producers fail way more than they succeed. I would say, you know, like I said, I would say 98% of the time we're we're failing. I think that 2% of the time we're winning, but um, you know, it's part of the job.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

So I think I guess a sort of, I mean you've given the percentages, but uh maybe this is an impossible thing to for you to work out with no prep, but in the course of your career how many movies have you touched? And that I mean, you're better than I for defining what touch means, but this could be anything from you know the three examples you gave of what you're trying to do with these things. But how many have you touched, and then how many movie credits have you got?

SPEAKER_03 5:14

Um, I I've been doing this for 15 years now, so I would say I've touched, God, well over a thousand, I would say, in 15 years. I don't know what the exact number is, but it's more than a thousand, I would say, in 15 years. And I probably have, I don't know how many credits I exactly have, maybe 15 credits, maybe somewhere in that in that realm, if you include assistant credits. So yeah, I mean that's that's the batting average of a of a producer who's been at a company for 15 years that uh, you know, Atlas is is one of the bigger production companies in town. You know, it's it's probably, you know, we're probably in sort of top five up there, just in terms of the size and scale and success we've had and the time that I've been there. And people think that because we're Atlas, uh, it's easy. And it's it's not, you know, it's it's it's hard at Atlas, it's hard being an independent producer, it's hard wherever you go. Um, but yeah, I would say that number is well over a thousand comparatively to, you know, maybe between 15 and 20 credits out there.

SPEAKER_02 6:08

That to just to give um people a little bit more sort of color and context in your career. This isn't a failure question. I'm gonna get to the harder hitting failure questions in a second. But yeah. So did you come into this town? Because we do talk to a lot of writers, and I kind of get that journey of what it means to be a writer. Did you come into Hollywood with an idea that you wanted to be a movie producer, or did that path, I know sometimes people take other paths that end up and you, you know, maybe you weren't quite sure, and then you ended up at Atlas and you realized that was the thing you wanted to do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:36

No, I did. I've I've always wanted to be a producer since I was a little kid. Um, and when I went to film school, that's all I did was produce everyone's movies. So I took all of the different classes. So I took screenwriting and editing and cinematography and directing, but I knew I always wanted to be a producer. I just sort of had this skill set for for producing. And so when I was in film school, I just sort of produced, I was like the the it producer in film school. I was doing like five movies at a time, you know, short films, obviously, with with very little to no budgets. And when I graduated, I had this very false sense of who I was in the film business because I had done all of these great things in film school, not realizing that none of that was going to matter at one iota when I graduated. So when I graduated, I sort of thought that the phone was gonna be ringing off the hook, and it just wasn't. You know, I literally couldn't even get an interview. And so I reached out to a friend of mine that I went to high school with who was working for a director named Pete Siegel, and he's the one that gave my resume to Chuck Rovitt. And really, I mean, Atlas is the very first interview that I got out of film school. Uh, because I knew I had to work for a big producer if I ever wanted to be a big producer. The the skill set that you get in film school does not qualify you at all to go produce big movies in town. So I knew that I really needed to find someone that that I can learn from. And so I started as Chuck's second assistant about three months after graduating film school. I had done a lot of PA work while I was in film school. And so I was a PA before I started there. But when I started there as a second assistant, it was sort of at the busiest time in his career where we were in prep on The Dark Knight and we were in prep on Get Smart, and we were in post-production on this movie called The Bank Job. And so there was a lot going on. So while I was on his desk, I spent about two and a half years on his desk. That was like my grad school. And so I got to really sort of have a front row seat, uh, listening to all of his calls and reading his emails and just being attached to the hip with him for that period of time. And that is at the moment, I think I realized like this is definitely what I want to do forever. And I do want to progress within this company. And so, you know, I've done kind of every job there is to do at a production company, from second assistant to first assistant to creative executive to vice president to senior vice president to executive vice president, you know, and now a producer and an EVP at Atlas. Um, but it is definitely always what I wanted to do. I think there was really no other, there was no other path for me. It was it was one that I I got to sort of, like I said, out of a front row seat watching Chuck do what he did and realized at that point that yeah, I I definitely do want to do this.

SPEAKER_02 9:12

That's that's that's amazing. Okay, now this is the question that I now that I've set you up, this is really the question that I want to ask. And we have a mutual friend named John Zerzani. And John was on the show and he said that one of the weapons one of the only tools, not the only tools, but the sort of the biggest tool that a producer uses when a when a when a movie's falling apart is to fire the writer. And we're talking about it from his perspective of being a manager of writers and having to be in the middle of that conversation when a writer's being let go. Now, obviously, one of your biggest jobs as well is dealing with writers and dealing with content and and their process. And a lot of our listeners, as Darren had pointed out, are writers. Uh so what is that process like for you when something's going south? And and you have to figure out a game plan with a writer, hopefully write the ship, andor because we're talking about 100-200 million dollar budgets of things you guys are dealing with, you have to let this person go. And what is your process and how does the emotional toll on you?

SPEAKER_03 10:09

You know, it's it sucks because I I pride myself in becoming very close with all the writers we work with. I know, you know, my brother's a screenwriter. So I know how hard it is to be a screenwriter. It's it's you know, I think it's like actors and screenwriters are the two professions in our business that get have the most rejection in their lives, I think. You know, it's the hardest mentally on on both sides of the business when you're talking about actors and writers. So so much of what people write comes from the heart, and it's really hard when that happens. But as a producer, our job first and foremost is protect the movie at all costs. And the movie is always the most important thing. It's something that we have to continue to remind ourselves on a daily basis that even though we may be very close friends with a writer, you know, if if it means keeping the movie on track in hopes of getting the movie made and we have to change writers, it's unfortunate what we have to do to keep the movie on track. And as I said, our job as a producer is to protect the movie. And so, you know, it's it's a really tricky, tricky thing to deal with. Every every situation I think is different. There's always a different reason for it. And I think that usually only happens, in my opinion, when you hit a hit a wall with the studio and everyone looks at each other and goes, well, we don't know what the path forward is. How do we solve this? And unfortunately, usually the studio's first suggestion is, well, let's find another writer, let's bring someone else in. It's it's never a fun process for us as producers because you have to remember when we're developing scripts with with writers, you know, we we spend a lot of time and energy developing those scripts with writers. We read multiple drafts, we give notes, and when it's time to bring in a new writer, having to start that process all over again as a producer is is something that you know you have to remind yourself, okay, I can't give those same notes because this is a new version of it. And you know, I you're trying to sort of in your brain compartmentalize the diff the creative vision of that first writer and trying to steer away from those things that they came up with because those things may not have worked with the studio, but so many of what so much of what they did was great. And so you're trying to hold on to those things, and so you're you're pulling those things into the next draft if you can while trying to convince another writer that they're good ideas and the other writers trying. So we're always in the in the middle, in the epicenter of all of it. It's never a fun place to be. But you know, more often than not, it happens. And I think, you know, there's so many writers out there that it's happened to, I would say most right, most working writers in the in the film side, it's happened to at least once or twice in their careers. So it's just it's part of the business, you know, it's part of the tax that we all have to pay for being in this business, is that that is just the way it rolls sometimes. And and more often than not, it's not necessarily the writer's fault. It just means that the studio just can't see that vision. They they can't see that a path forward with that writer because they've had their day in court and maybe they didn't get there and they didn't convince the studio that that's ready to be. But you know, it's just never, it's just not a fun process. I I usually try as hard as I can throughout the process to be as transparent as I can with what the studio is thinking and what they're saying. And usually writers, when they see the studio notes and they know what's accomplishable and what's not, there's they know it's coming most of the time. I'm I'd be shocked if any writers were completely blindsided by uh being told that they were they were there was a new writer coming in.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

So it's not unexpected that Noah would ask the sort of, you know, why are you so mean to writers question as a writer? Um I'm not a writer, so I've got no dog in this fight, but we have asked the question of quite a few of our guests who have switched between TV and film about the different types of rejection between them. And most I think we've had four or five of them say a version of it's much worse in movies, you know, they treat the writers worse, all the powers in the wrong direction, unlike in TV, you know, they you get treated badly on set. Um no one takes you creatively seriously in the same way maybe they do in TV. Is that all grossly unfair, or is that actually, as you said, a function of the movie comes first, and that's the nature of the business?

SPEAKER_03 14:26

Um, you know, it's hard to answer. I just I don't have enough experience in television. I've I've sold a few things in television. I'm in the process of getting my first TV series, hopefully made knock on wood now. So I don't know if I have enough experience on the television side to really answer, you know, how writers are treated on that side of the business. Um on the feature side, you know, I I wish they were treated better. I really do. I mean, the writers are my most important relationships that I have in this business. And I hate to be on the wrong side of a relationship that may go sour on a project with a writer in studio. Um, so it's I don't I I it's a hard one to answer just because I don't think I have enough experience on the TV side working with writers to to really have the context.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

Yeah. So this is a question, but it's also nothing to do with rejection, failure, and adversity, but I'm just interested in it as an external person. In terms of the maybe uh not I'm not sure the right way of phrasing this is a blurring of the lines, but I think that the maybe there is a blurring of the lines between uh TV and movies in the sense of obviously big movie stars are doing TV, and some of the budgets for these TV shows are probably now um much bigger than some of the movies. Like it feels, and some of this is to do with obviously the platforms, but it feels like the the gap between the two uh different ways of producing is uh is changing. Does it what does that mean for uh obviously you're as you said, you're trying to do something in T. What does that mean? Does it mean there'll be less specialism and they the two will become closer as platforms?

SPEAKER_03 16:07

You know, I think you're seeing both sides. I mean, you know, when I first started this business, you know, 15 years ago, it was sort of always television writers were trying to get to to the feature side, it felt like. You know, it always sort of felt like that they were trying to make that transition over into films. I think these days it's come, I think both sides of the aisle are completely even. You know, I think there are so many of us on the feature side now that are trying to get into television. You know, I think part of the reason is that the quality of television is just so fucking high these days. The shows are amazing, the budgets are great, and I think in the streaming world, audiences are absolutely loving being able to spend, you know, 10 hours with a character and a story as opposed to two hours sitting in a theater. So I think between, you know, with I think streaming has had a really, a really big effect on the television side and our wants to get into that business. And so many feature writers and directors making their way into television, you know, for a multitude of different reasons. But I think I would I would say that I would think that the one of the biggest reasons is because they just the the idea of being able to spend that much time developing a character and taking them on their journey and getting audiences, you know, and find making the audiences fall in love with them, you just have a lot more time and bandwidth and and real estate to do that in in television. Um so I don't know, the the line is really sort of very much blurred there. I think both television writers and directors are trying to get into features and lots of feature, I think more feature writers and directors are trying to get into television these days. Um it's also, you know, it's just it's just people seem to be uh television series seem to be making more noise than than films as well. And I think it's everyone's goal at the moment to try to make as much noise as they can to try to get noticed. And if you look at, I think all of the hot directors in town that all the studios are trying to feed movies to, most of them are coming from TV these days.

SPEAKER_02 18:07

I I think that's a product of having more time, obviously, to tell a story and having you know more eyeballs focusing you on you know per hour, you know, in TV, which gives us the a us, you know, as us as in the TV world, a maybe a leg up, but maybe not, because I know so many writers who on the TV side who still want to have their feature made because that's the reason they they came into Hollywood. But I want to change, I want to change gears uh really fast. I had a project at Atlas, and you know, Atlas, you know, to set the stage for where you work, you're in one of the coolest buildings, you know, in LA, and and solo houses in there. Every time you go there, there's like movie stars walking around. You walk into your lobby, and there's these massive movies you guys have produced, and you feel you get that feeling that you don't that you forget when you've been working here for a long time. That like, oh, I'm at this great place and I like Hollywood, and it's really kind of flashy and glitzy and glamorous. And obviously, you've done these big movies American Hostel, the uh Hollow Point, Suicide, Suicide Squad, Triple Frontier, and many more uh in your time with Atlas, and you've locked the red carpets, you've done all of that. That's that we know that's like the high, right? That's the feeling, like, oh man, I'm here. What I want to ask you is what does a bad day look like for you?

SPEAKER_03 19:23

You know, it's a good question. Bad days, I mean, I here's here's the thing. I always I always compare working in Hollywood to like being on a roller coaster. And uh, roller coasters, obviously, extreme highs followed by extreme lows. And that's what Hollywood is. Hollywood is extreme highs followed by extreme lows. And the people that survive in this business and the ones that last the longest are the ones that can ride that roller coaster and hold on and know that when things are going great and they're in one of those extreme highs, that it doesn't, it's not always gonna be that way. And that eventually, very soon probably, you're gonna be feeling in that low point. And when you're there, reminding yourself and telling yourself that this isn't gonna last, and eventually I'll get back to that point of being in one of my highs. But, you know, as I said, as a producer or even a producer at Atlas, we spend most of our days, you know, calling up agents, submitting scripts for packaging, taking out pitches, calling and explaining to people why they should sit down and hear our pitch. Um, you know, a bad day at Atlas obviously is if we have just taken a project out and we're starting to collect passes. And, you know, most often those passes come to us and the studios will call us and they'll they'll pass, and then we have to deliver that news to the reps. And then I usually tell the reps that I want to be the one to call the writers myself and explain what they said and talk them through it. And, you know, or it's us submitting a script um or a package to a filmmaker that we believe is absolutely perfect for and we've heard they're looking for that type of movie, and everyone's holding their breath, and and sure enough, we we I come to the office and and we get a pass, you know, and then it's back to the drawing board and going through the process again. And it's it's a constant, I mean, the you know, the comparison obviously is is pushing a boulder up a hill. I mean, that's really honestly it's what we do every single day. And it's those days where there's someone at the top of the hill when you think that you got it there and you think that maybe you finally a project you develop you've been developing and working on for years and years, you finally got to the place where someone is gonna buy it and you feel good about it, and and they pass, you know, and then that someone just kicks that boulder right back down the hill and you got to start at the bottom and start your way back up again. And I think the hardest days are are those days where where you've been working towards something forever and you think that you finally got there, only to realize that you know, that boulder is rolled all the way down to the bottom of the hill and you've got to sort of redevelop it and repackage it and take it back out. Um, those are, I think, the hardest days where you you you take a you know a step back and you go, Well, fuck, I've just been spent two years putting this version together and it just didn't happen, and now I got to start over. You know, that those days are tough because. It starts you really, you know, you start to really think about all the things in your life that you've maybe, you know, put off or put aside while you're working on that project, or other things you could have taken on instead of that project. And all those things start to go through your head. Um, and it's those days I think that are the hardest ones where you have to just take a step back and realize, you know, yeah, today's hard and it sucks, but but it's gonna get better.

SPEAKER_02 22:22

Uh on the same note, I want to ask you a question about pride versus pain. And what I mean by that is, you know, on the writer's side, when they write a script or something, they've they've put their heart into the script. And then when it finally goes onto screen, you know, there's a sort of the pride they get that they they did that, they made this thing. And then of course the pain is if that thing is changed dramatically by the time it gets to the screen, and they don't know it often when they get there and they see the thing they made is completely changed. But you're obviously sort of on the same ride at a higher level and in the movie because you've seen it all the way through. Do you have that same feeling of angst versus pride when you're looking at the finished project going, wow, those were my six ideas, they got in there. Go on.

SPEAKER_03 23:08

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, you know, those, you know, it's impossible to separate your you've by the time a movie comes out and it starts screening for critics, you know, we've watched it 700 times at least. And so it's impossible to to even know what you have most of the time. I mean, if you if you've got a good movie, you know, you're you're pretty sure you've got a good movie, and people are telling you you've got a good movie, and people are saying it's worked, and everything you've done to this point has been great, but you don't really know until that movie gets sort of thrown out of the world and you get to sort of see how people react to it. And you know, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, you know. But those those situations that you're referring to, you know, are those are the hardest ones to swallow sometimes. And and it's, you know, it's it's conflicting as a producer, you know. And I think, you know, the first Suicide Squad movie is I think the perfect example of it, where, you know, critically uh people didn't like that movie. And I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna try to convince people to like that movie, and I'm not even gonna say that I think it's a great movie, but but it was a it was conflicting at that time because the movie did extraordinarily well, you know, from a producorial point of view. You know, as a producer, what our job is to do is to obviously protect the movie at all costs and to make sure that the people that are paying for the movie are gonna hopefully make their money back, and the and the filmmaker that directed the movie is gonna be proud of the vision. And you know, so you you don't always win, you don't always get all those things. But on Suicide Squad, for example, you know, that was one where you know we had set the record for an August opening. You know, I think it made $135 million in its opening weekend, you know, the movie grossed almost $750 million, but it was it just never felt like a win to me. You know, it was one of those where I just can, you know, my my wife and my family kept telling me how great of a job we had done. And, you know, from a producorial point of view, it was a big win and and we had done our job, but it just never felt good. And and that movie in particular, I think is a perfect example of, you know, as a as a from from a producorial standpoint, we did a great job. But but uh when you look at the whole big picture, you know, there's so many things we would have done differently. And and it was one of those where uh, you know, like I said, you just it just felt it was a very funny feeling. I've never had that feeling where it was you you should be celebrating, but you're just not, because people are just dumping all over your movie everywhere you look. Uh, and you of course don't want to be that guy pointing out that it's it's a it's a success on paper. Um, but you know, it's the those are those are that was a tough one, you know. And I think as when you watch a movie that you've produced and you spent, you know, most often when we're when we finally get a movie to the point where people are watching it, you know, we've given at a minimum three years of our life to get to that point on that film. And that's a that's a long period of time. You know, usually it takes much longer than that from a producer's uh job, you know. And for us, you know, we're hands-on producers at Atlas. We're there, we're on set, we leave our families for a year at a time to go make these movies, and we're there on set every day, and we're there in post every day, and and we're very hands-on, you know, we're there every day a part of the process. So some of these films take seven, eight years to make, and and they don't necessarily come out, you know, as as we had hoped sometimes. But you know, you always, you always, when I watch them at home and I rewatch them years later, there's there's there's many, many things when you watch those movies that you knowing what was behind the scenes all the time, things you would have done differently, you know, you could play Monday morning quarterback uh till you're blue in the face. And and I do that all the time, you know. But there's there's just nothing you can really do. And as a writer, you know, it's even tougher because you have even less control, you know. And I I always cringe when I hear about you know, writers not even given an opportunity to see their movie before an audience sees it, especially if there's multiple writers and maybe the the first writer in doesn't even get an invite to a screening before the film comes out. And that's that's just so gross on so many levels when when producers or studios do that to writers. Um, but as a writer, you just don't have you don't have the control. And I, you know, there they're it's it at the end of the day, this is a job. And yes, you're putting your heart and your soul out there. But um, you know, I know so many writers that just get so in their own heads when they watch some of their work and they hate it because there was other writers that came in. And I'm always talking those people off cliffs. And I think it's it's a it's a tough pillow to swallow. You know, this is this is a this is a finicky, hard business that um, you know, even when you think you won, um, sometimes you still lose.

SPEAKER_01 27:36

Extra well, I have to say this is quite a good question from Noah. It's something I rarely say, but that was an amazing answer. I think there's quite a lot to unpack there. I think it's I think your point about writers and how they deal with this, we've asked often on this podcast the question, you know, if you've missed out on a project or you know, you you you were the first writer but then got fired, you you know, do you want it to be a success or a failure? Uh, you know, do you watch it, don't you watch it? So hearing your version of that and your sort of empathy for the writers has been discarded from the project is fascinating. I think a sort of related question to know as I guess this is one of my slightly unfair hypothetical questions, which is I guess if you have a choice on a movie, so you're let's say the next movie you're working on, if you had a choice between one, it making an enormous amount of money, two, it winning the biggest award, or three you're able to consistently work maybe with the original writer in a good group, and it all feels like somebody's vision was completed and everyone is uh enormously satisfied with the project, but maybe it doesn't fulfill sort of one or two in this, so it doesn't make an enormous amount of money all with awards. Which of those three scenarios does uh Andy today want from his next movie? And is it different from Andy of five to ten years ago?

SPEAKER_03 29:16

Um yeah, I mean, I I it is definitely different from Andy five to ten years ago. You know, Andy from five to ten years ago would, you know, 10 years ago, let's say, Rotten Tomatoes did not have anywhere near the meaning that it has today. Now it's it's kind of everything critically for a film. You know, Rotten Tomatoes 10 years ago was a website that existed, but was absolutely not a website where people went to go check it before they went and saw a movie. So now you're realize now that now you're realizing that people are going to that website before they drive to go see a film. And if they don't like the number, they don't go. Um, so back then, you know, let's say 10 years ago, a movie being financially successful was was my primary goal as a as a producer. Um now I think I would choose option three because this business is not a sprint, it's a marathon. And and I'm in it for the long haul. And if you're in it for the long haul, relationships are far more important than you know, a studio making a ton of money on a film that may not have been critically successful or may not have treated certain people the right way throughout the process. But personally for myself, I would much rather have a movie do moderately well, be well received by the critics, and be in good in the good graces with the writers and everyone else involved, in hopes that I can continue to work on other things with them. Because if we had a good experience on that film, you know, this business, as everyone knows, is is is is filled with assholes. I mean, it just is. And and you run into them all over the place. And when you find good people that you like working with, uh you you want to repeat the process. It's because this we work way too hard. We spend way too much of our time working on these movies to spend it with people that we don't enjoy being with and that we don't enjoy seeing them win along with us. And I think it never feels good as a producer when maybe you win on the financial side of the movie, but there are other people that that movie's left in its wake that feel slighted or feel that they may have been treated unfairly. That that never that never feels good, you know, and no producer in town is ever going to fully enjoy that experience, knowing that that that they have that kind of damage in their wake. So I would much rather take the third option where a movie does moderately well. I stay in having a good relationship with the filmmakers and the writers, and we get to repeat the process again because having shorthand with the people that you're working with and knowing how people work and what they like and what they don't like and and how it works best with certain people and certain tastes, that's you know, that's something that you can't really buy in town with all the financial success that you get. And and as I said, it's uh this is a marathon and not a sprint. So I'd much rather be in the good graces of the people that I worked with and and hope that they're happy with the product, the product as I am, uh, and we get to go repeat the process again.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

Fantastic. And that might be one of my favorite answers to any question in 38 episodes of this podcast. So that was great to hear. Um so now I'm just gonna ask, not a mean question, but let's go straight into a what is the single worst rejection anecdote you can give us is either in terms of the ridiculousness of how it happened or the pain you suffered because it was right at the end of a long process when you thought things would go better. Give us give us just a nice quick anecdote of how bad things can be.

SPEAKER_03 32:52

Uh, I think Triple Frontier is the perfect project to talk about uh as that. And yes, we did end up winning and got that one made, but that was an incredibly painful process for everyone involved because we had two versions of that film that we had prepped and gotten very close to making and failed both times. The first time was with Paramount, where we had uh I was in Hawaii prepping the movie. We were in the middle of prep and we had a casting issue. We continued to try to save it. We thought we did save it. Uh happened to be the same week that a new studio had took over, heard there was issues on the movie, shut it down. We then uh ended up at Netflix because they wanted to make the movie. We we re-prepped the movie again from scratch, literally starting over in prep uh with a completely different crew and started over. And we got to that we prepped that entire prep period for multiple months up until we were on our Tech Scout in Bogota, Columbia, and we were less than two weeks away from shooting that movie, and the movie went down again, and we all went home. And having to tell our entire crew twice, some of which came from the first round into the second round, uh, that all of the work that we had done was now being put on hold and that they were all being sent home and the movie wasn't happening was was one of the hardest things I have been a part of for sure. You know, because that's a hundred plus people looking at you in hopes that you're gonna be able to hold that movie on your shoulders and get them to the point where they can actually shoot the movie. And twice uh we didn't get there. And so finally on the third round, we we ended up getting there. And I had to go sort of begging and pleading to all of our department heads for that third round that we brought back from the second round and to convince them that even though they had left their families for X amount of time and didn't actually even get to make a movie, that this time, the third time, was actually gonna be the time that we were gonna make this movie. And, you know, having to put my reputation on the line with all of them and these people that are far older than I am and far more experienced than I am in this business, telling me that that they're gonna do me a solid and come back and that I they hope that I wasn't misleading them. Um, you know, it was just it was it was the toughest time in my career for for many, many reasons uh on that movie. But uh at the end of the day, you know, we finally got there. But those first two rounds where we we got so close and we just didn't get there, we got so close we could taste it on the second round. I mean, we had our sets built and everything ready to go, and we we got shut down and had to take, I think it was a four-month break before we got everyone back. Um, you know, that I think that experience uh one day will be a very large chapter in my memoir and going through that process.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

I guess a sort of I guess I don't know if this is quite the right way to phrase it, but like a PTSD question. Um so obviously it's on your credits, it's a movie, not everyone knows the whole story. So, you know, when you're casually at dinner parties and people are like, oh, you know, Triple Frontier, great, benefit was amazing, you know, that must have been fun. You know, do you go, yeah, yeah, great project, loved it, or do you sort of sort of have a weary sort of look you're like, oh, let me tell you the story? Like, does it sort of hurt you when people raise it because it was, although obviously it was a great movie, you know, you know a painful story and it brings back bad memories?

SPEAKER_03 36:38

Um, I mean, uh it's one of those that I do smile because it's a movie that means a lot to me, and I love the people involved in making that movie, all of them, you know, JC and his producing partners and all of our department heads, you know, and all the people that that worked on the film that ended up coming back for that that third round and actually got the movie made. So it's one of those that it, you know, it has a happy ending. It took a lot of blood, sweat, and tears to get to that point that I do feel like I kind of have blocked out. But but no, when that movie comes up, I don't I don't go into the the sob story of of how hard it was to get it made. Because I think, you know, every movie, I think every producer on every movie can will have those stories for you. You know, every movie, as we always say, every movie's a miracle because the amount of things that have to go right just to get to that point where there's a set with cameras and actors on it, is a is a fucking miracle that you got to that point. And I always try to explain that to writers and and young actors that just the fact that we're standing here on a set, do you realize how many things had to come together and and how many problems could have easily taken this thing off its tracks and it would have never happened, we would have never gotten here. You know, every movie truly is a miracle. The fact that you get to get to go shoot something uh and be paid to do it, it is. And so, you know, I think every producer in town on every film uh will have many, many stories about how the movie almost fell apart or uh how it how they sort of had to hold it together uh and and continue to sort of keep a brave face for their crew at all times. And um, you know, it's just it's one of those that I when when the movie gets brought up, I just smile and nod. Because at the end of the day, you know, I do have very good memories of that. And that project will will be very special to me just because it was definitely the hardest movie I've ever made and um one of them that I'm I'm the most proud of.

SPEAKER_02 38:30

And I love that movie, by the way. Uh before before we we we get to the uh final question, I I have one thing, you know, that that comment made me think about something about how the business has changed. Uh since you got in 15 years ago, since I've been in 13 years ago, since back in the day when it was all family owned, the studios were family owned, and they became these monster tech companies and conglomerates that own all the content. And I feel like there's been this golden age of television, which we're in, which has you know, there's something like 600 shows on the air right now. Uh, but movies have contracted a lot to, you know, big spectacle-filled movies. And obviously, you guys do some of those movies as well. But the the you know, it it feels like for the the feature writers out there, there's less avenues for them to write smaller, important films, you know. And I think maybe the streamers have are changing the game yet again by getting into the movie business. But what are your feelings about that? Is this sort of keeping you up at night, or do you think they're that things are you know constantly in flux and you're gonna get back to making a lot of movies in a lot of different genres?

SPEAKER_03 39:37

I mean, things things are constantly in flux, and that's just because you know, we get these we call studios all the time, we put these lists together of things that they're looking for and what they want to buy and why they want to buy it. We all talk about in our staff meetings and we discuss what we have that makes sense for those wants and needs in all the studios, and they change on a monthly basis. You know, those lists change every single month. And, you know, what I always try to tell young writers, especially in the feature world, in my opinion, it the most important thing right now in our business, I think, is trying to make as much noise as humanly possible with your work. And by noise, I mean when people read it, they go talk about it afterwards. It's whether, you know, it's it's them telling other people that they have to read this because there's nothing else like it, or because this voice is so interesting and you just have to read this person's writing because it's so fresh and fun and poppy. And right now, you know, and I I know that's a very producorial thing to say, but it's it's the most important thing you could possibly do is make noise because you know, box office doesn't mean as much as it used to anymore. It just doesn't. And and if if you if you make a great movie that nobody talks about, it's not gonna do a lot for your career. It's just not, you know, you have to make a movie that that sort of hits the bullseye on a multitude of different levels. It has to be critically successful, it has to make a lot of noise and make people want to talk about it. You know, these days, I would hope that you are really trying to say something. Your movie is trying to say something. And, you know, it's it's you know, streaming coming into play has been very helpful for our business because it's allowed us to get movies made that would have never gotten made at a traditional studio. And so they're taking much bigger swings at the streamers because box office doesn't mean anything. But at the end of the day, you know, I would say that the streamers in the studios, none of them are really taking big risks still. And I think that's the biggest challenge that we deal with as producers is just trying to convince these studios and streamers to take a swing and to take a risk. And I think people are, you know, always scared for their jobs and they're always wondering who their boss is going to be next year. And is my, I don't know who my boss is gonna be next year, but whoever it is, are they gonna like the decision that I made by green lighting this movie or buying the script? You know, so those what that's what's going on in their heads. And I think, you know, it's us as producers are always trying to get them to take a swing and just to go for it. It doesn't happen very often, but when it does happen, you know, more often than not, those swings are rewarded by by those movies making some noise for those streamers and making people talk about those movies. And, you know, people are tweeting about those films and putting on social media, and weirdly, that means more to streamers these days than movies maybe even being good. You know, if if there people are talking about a streaming movie uh and it's trending on Twitter and people are telling friends on Facebook about this movie that they saw, you know, that's that means a whole lot to streamers. It doesn't mean a lot to theatrical distributors, unfortunately, but it means a lot to the streamers. So the business has changed dramatically, you know, because that now is still considered a win. And you don't necessarily have to have a financial win or a critical win, but you can still win by by making some noise with your film. And I think there are a lot of movies on the streamers that you can point to that that fall under that category. Um, but streaming coming into play, I think, has actually been very helpful for our business. It's it's allowing you know more content than ever is getting made. There are way more movies getting made now than there were five years ago. Uh, the types of movies that are getting made are far different than the types of movies that were getting made five years ago. And I think people that were told five years ago that this movie will never have a shot in hell at ever getting made or even bought, I think those movies now, or some of them, you know, they do have a shot now. There is, it is a different world we live in. The metrics, you know, are very different these days than they were five years ago. So the landscape has changed and it's gonna continue to change and evolve as COVID continues to work itself out and the acquisitions between all these giant conglomerates continue to happen. And I honestly don't think that we're gonna be in what we're gonna call the new normal for at least another year or two, probably.

SPEAKER_01 44:04

Fascinating answer. I I g I guess good given the industry's changing so much, maybe this will be form part of your answer to our final question, which is as I think you know, if you could give a single piece of advice to somebody entering the industry, what would it be?

SPEAKER_03 44:22

You know, as I as I always tell my interns, you know, it's I use the roller coaster analogy and the survivors in this business, the ones that last, you know, people like myself that have been doing it for 15 plus years, and Noah has been doing it for 13 years, you know, we have extremely thick skin. And and I always try to explain to people that, you know, this business is is failing way more than you're succeeding. Way more. I think I don't know any other business in the world where where people can fail as much as we do and still be called successful. And I think that's that's a very hard thing for people to explain to their families that aren't part of this business when they continue to write scripts and not sell them, but continue to push that boulder up the hill. And, you know, I always try to tell people that it's it's important to to not give up. It just isn't. And there's gonna be so many days where you say, you know, fuck this. This is just too tough, it's too taxing, it's not worth it. I'm never gonna get rich, I'm never gonna make money, I'm never gonna get my movie made. And I will, I, I'm I'm a product of of being that kind of person, you know. I I had a it took me a long, long, long time to get to where I am. And I always try to tell people that, you know, as I said, you fail way more than you succeed in this business. And to never ever compare yourselves to other people in this business. Don't look at that person and go, well, they're 10 years younger than me. Why have they gotten three movies made and sold 12 scripts and I still haven't sold my first one yet? You know, never look at that person posting their big announcement that they sold a big spec script and wondering why that's not me. You know, that's the worst thing you could ever do in this business is compare yourself to someone else because everyone in this business has a completely unique journey to themselves. Every single person will have a different story on how they got to where they got to. There is no cookie-cutter job path in this business. It's a long, bumpy, hard road. And those of us that are successful are the ones that have been on that road for a long time and stayed on that road and never got off. Um, so you know, when you look around and you see, you know, writers or producers or directors posting, you know, on Facebook or on Twitter or on Instagram, their big splashy announcements and all the success that they're having. Just know that for every post that they do, they've had probably 10 to 15 failures for every single success that they've had, if not more. And so you look at those people and you go, God, they just continue to win and they keep having these successes. But those people aren't posting their failures. Those people aren't going on social media and posting, I took three pitches out in the past six months and haven't sold any of them. Or I put a package together that I've been working on for a year that I was sure was gonna sell, that everyone was telling me it was gonna sell. Every rep is a that you know represented every element was telling me it was gonna sell, and we didn't sell it. You know, we don't post those things on social media, and most people don't. They're only posting their wins. And so the worst thing you could ever do is compare yourself to other people. And these days in social in the in the world of social media, it's harder than ever not to do that. Um, but but that would my be my biggest uh you know word of advice for for young filmmakers is to you know keep your eyes down, do the work, and just don't compare yourselves to other people. It's it just is only gonna make it harder.

SPEAKER_01 47:54

Fantastic. Look, I mean, we we've heard the roller coaster analogy used before, uh, and also the sort of Las Vegas analogy, but the piece of advice around not comparing yourself to others and asking, you know, why why not me? Is a brilliant piece of advice. Uh, and knowing the audience that we have on this podcast, probably quite a lot of them spend too much time doing exactly that comparison. Um, and I know obviously Noah does it when it comes to podcasting skills as well, but I think it's a brilliant, brilliant piece of advice. So, Andy, thank you very much for being part of this. I think it's you're the first movie producer we've had on. And uh see, given that a lot of our listeners are writers, I think a lot of people will be heartened to hear the human element to movie producing, and that even though you recognize sometimes writers suffer as part of the movie process, that it's not intentional and you care, and actually that your dream project involves keeping the writers on. Um so you've definitely endeared yourself to both the host of this podcast and also I think the broader listenership. So thank you very much for coming on and sharing your insights.

SPEAKER_03 49:11

Thank you guys for having me. Uh like I said, I really, really respect what you guys are doing with this podcast. I think there's not enough podcasts that are that are really telling it how it is in town and you know that aren't sugarcoating it for people and that um you know allow other people to see that you know we all fail every day in this business. Everyone does. I think from the from the PA all the way up to Steven Spielberg, I think all of us in this business are are constantly failing on a weekly basis. So I think you guys are doing a great job, you know, letting the world know that uh this is this is the real. This is what it's like out here. Right. Thanks, Andy. Thank you, Andy. Thank you, guys. Have a good one, guys. Appreciate the time.

SPEAKER_01 49:53

Thank you for listening to another one of our fantastic episodes. Yet again, I think you'll find that I ask better questions than Noah. Noah, have you got anything to say?

SPEAKER_02 50:03

Um, as always, uh, since you've done most of the talking, I'm just gonna sit here quietly again.

SPEAKER_01 50:09

Surely there's some people to thank.

SPEAKER_02 50:11

Oh, right, right, right, right. Uh, I would love to thank James Launch for doing all of our outro music. Um, as always, I think we owe a big thank you to both of our wives who support us through this endeavor that started in our basement and seems to be ever growing. And if you want to reach out to either Dan or I, I am at and Ebsilin on Twitter. I'm not sure Dan has a Twitter account. Dan, do you have Twitter account?

SPEAKER_01 50:35

Well, I I do, but no one cares. All I care about is being on Noah's podcast. So well done, Noah, for conceiving, producing, editing, writing, and asking the best questions of the two of us because you've done all this work and well done you.

SPEAKER_02 50:49

I do think it's uh worth pointing out after 33 or so episodes that I do both voices. There actually is no damn listing.