Take 72 - Writer and Showrunner Meredith Scardino, Mr Mayor, Girls5eva

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for sure, dozens of unproduced scripts littering the floor.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_04 0:20

For every success, there is months, sometimes even years, of painful failure.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default. That's the norm. You have to be able to persevere. Like everything in our business, your hands can count. It all bounces off you. That process takes care of that doesn't happen overnight.

SPEAKER_03 0:43

I was being told by my manager it's yours to lose, and I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking like, well, that's it for me. I blew my one big shot. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_04 1:01

Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. I am as ever your non-entertainment co-host, Dan Rutstein.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

And this week at least, I am still your industry co-host, Noah Ebslin. Today I'm excited to have on TV writer, show creator, and showrunner Meredith Scardino on the podcast. Meredith Meredith has worked on such show at shows as The Late Show with David Letterman, The Colbert Report, Saturday Night Live, The Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, Mr. Mayer, and others. More recently, she's created Girls Five Eva, season two of which premiered on Peacock in May. Welcome, Meredith.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

Thank you for having me. This is very exciting.

SPEAKER_04 1:45

So sometimes we sort of start at the beginning and ask people about how hard it is to break into their career. Sometimes we leap right to the end and say, you know, you're super successful now. Um, you know, what have you learned along the way? Um I think I'm gonna I'm gonna go into the middle just to mix things up a bit. Um because I'm I'm always fascinated by people's journeys because no one seems to have the same one and they don't always seem to make sense from the outside. But moving from writing for the sort of late shows, talk shows to creating a show, I'm fascinated about that process. So can we just talk about that transition and hopefully some things that went wrong along the way?

SPEAKER_00 2:32

Oh yeah, you mean jumping from late night to like episodic? Like yeah. So I was at um I worked for uh the Colbert rapport for with Stephen Colbert for six years, which was just absolutely wonderful. Uh just an amazing, amazing experience. And then it was, it was actually it was really hard to leave because I loved it. Um, but I got an opportunity to write on Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, which was called Took In at the time. That was what the show was called. It was Robert, it was Robert Carlock and Tina Fay's, you know, first series after 30 Rock. And, you know, I'd been a big fan of theirs and I I read the pilot, and I was just like, just all the lights in my brain were going off. And I was just like, oh my God, I need to work on this. This is just so exciting, and I would love to. And they said yes to me. Um but so it in some ways, like it was a it was sort of a because that was filmed in New York, there's there's only like a certain amount of New York talent that's here, and it tends to be like late night writers, people doing stand-up, people doing improv. Um, and so a lot of late night writers end up ended up getting like sort of, I feel like swept into the Tina Faye, Robert Carlock universe, or some of some of us did, like Sam Means did. Um, anyway, so uh it was kind of an it was a pretty direct transition. Like just I read this thing, I interviewed, and then like two weeks later, I was in a room starting the show. Um, the transition is interesting because it's like late night, you it's like very uh dopamine where you read, you know, like crazily read the news in the morning, come up with pitches, screw, shout them at Steven. He's like, okay, do that one, write that up. And then by that night, you have something on or you don't, and then you go home and you do it again the next day. So there's like a very quick feedback system, which is really nice. In narrative, when you when I moved over there, the thing that was a little bit like, oh my gosh, is like, okay, we're writing things that don't necessarily see the light of day until you know six months from now or something like that. So you have to be like just enjoy the the data, you know, have it have a sort of a different um relationship with kind of comedy writing in a way. Um it's sort of like a more glacial pace, but it's but it's really cool. And you like also talk more about your personal life and you write from a million different perspectives because you have, you know, an ensemble cast and things like that. So um it's definitely a transition though, writing from going from late night to to scripted because you have to think about like people growing and changing and all that stuff that I didn't have to think at all about when I was just making fun of like what Mitch McConnell said that day.

SPEAKER_04 5:34

But obviously, it in the in the way, you know, you're in the ideas business, and when you're on a show like that show, presumably, you know, you make a you have some ideas, you sort of, as you say, you sort of shout them out quite quickly. And so, you know, you might pitch something and it's it doesn't work for a million reasons, but you've only been thinking about it for not very long anyway. And so they say, you know, we don't like this one, and everyone moves on, and presumably you get quite thick skinned about that. Um when you move to a show where you know you come in and you got here's an idea that I've been thinking about for three weeks, and then they at the end of it, they're like, No, I don't really like that one. Is it is the rejection sort of a little more personal on episodic?

SPEAKER_00 6:21

In some ways, yeah. I mean, well, there's two kinds of uh I feel like there's two kinds of writing. There's still plenty of like throw a million things at the wall and see what sticks, and the wall, I guess, is Tina and Robert, and just see what they they they catch and like. Um, and so I was very accustomed to doing that. You know, it it took me a few years of working with them to be in a position to pitch a longer form thing. Um, like to, you know, just pitch them like, okay, here's what we were working on in this other room, and here's how the story starts. And then and then to, yeah, sometimes when those get thrown out, it's like, ah, you're, you know, it hurts a little bit more because you spent, you know, a week or two working on it, and then you just pitch it. It you know, sinks like a stone. But and then also similarly, but it's also kind of freeing, writers' drafts, like so when you um work in episodic, you you write like a writer is sort of whose name is on the script. I mean, in comedy, everybody writes as part of it's sort of a misnomer that it's there's one person's name on a comedy script because it's it's like we all tear it up like dogs. But um when it when it's your script and you go off and you write for a week and come back and hand this draft in and everyone reads it, and then you sit around a table and you're sorry, and and you're kind of like watching people's faces to be like, did they did they laugh? Or like when someone laughs, you're like, Well, what'd you what'd you laugh at? What was that? What would you laugh, you know, about? And um, and then you kind of tear it apart and say, like, this worked, this didn't. And a lot of times, you know, you'll end up with by the time you get to table, you know, rewrite it for the for the table, um, table read, it's it's so incredibly different. You might even, you might even have like one joke that remained from your writer's draft. I mean, that's or sometimes none. Honestly, sometimes it's like you have your name on a thing that is like you you didn't really, or or the room, you just rewrote it in the room. So that's a little bit also like you need a thick skin just to be, just to be like, okay, yeah, this is part of the process. This is a hundred percent part of the process, which is like to to pitch the story, um, write an outline, write the script, see how the script is working, if where it's not working, totally rewrite it together with a group, and then try it at the table read. And then again, you can love jokes and then they they die at the table, and you're just like, okay, all right. And if you still believe in it, you you film it. But if sometimes you're like, okay, we need to rewrite that, then you it's just it's a rejection. I mean, there your day is just part of your day is rejection. It's like a huge part of your day, like every day. So you just see that as part of the process. It's not like you should take it personally. Um, but you know, as long as you have some wins, you got to have some wins on the other side of it. So it's not like if it's just rejection, then I would say maybe try try another job. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 9:27

I I I love that we're digging into the side of things because we talk about this podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity, but we talk about failure and adversity more. We don't actually always get into the weeds of what it feels like to be rejected. And I was just talking to another writer today where young writers, you know, there's no training process really to what happens when you start to get rejected in a writer's room where your ideas aren't aren't landing and you want them to, and you still think it's a great idea, and no matter how much you want it to, it doesn't matter if the showrunner doesn't respond to it. And yet, so my question to you is about the specificity of comedy writing, because I'm on the drama side and obviously we're still pitching things and we're still getting rejected, but we're not pitching as many jokes that get responses. And do you think that coming from uh late night, where well you said it was like a dopamine hit where you were pitching very fast, things were getting approved on air that night to TV, which is a little bit more long form. However, you still are pretty fast-paced when you're trying to get these jokes into a script. Do you think that helped you get a thicker skin, like prepare for rejection? Can you talk about the feeling of rejection for those of you, those of those people out there who have never actually gone through it?

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Yeah, well, I think like I think what it is is it it you're willing to just be like, my thing isn't precious. It's like you I mean, when I first started at Letterman, I just you just are churning material, you're churning so much material out in a single day, like hundreds of jokes. And and same with Colbert report, you're like just constantly writing, like you're it's just you're working this muscle that's just doing these little like um math equations in your head and and writing jokes. And so it's impossible for all that material to be accepted because it would just make your show 60 hours long, you know, like the amount of, but it's all but it it just becomes part of the process to see about 80 to 90 percent of what you produce kind of thrown out. Um, but and then and then having that muscle to be able to like pitch a lot is very useful in at least in the kind of rooms that I've been in. I mean, I don't know in a you know, in a more of a dramedy room if it's more about you know character and story arc a little bit more. I mean, we're that stuff's in our show too. It's just that the jokes are kind of the tone. So jokes are a huge part of you know, Kimmy Schmidt and Girls by Velda and stuff like that. So um, so I do think that like the people that have late night experience are just used to that that rhythm. And so it's just like, okay, that didn't work, let me try another thing. That didn't work, let me try another thing. I think it's I think it's hard for um, I honestly I think it's to to enter into a comedy room if you kind of haven't cut your teeth in a place where you had to pitch a lot, I think is really hard. Because I think if you open your mouth and pitch something and it doesn't get a response, then it's gonna make you less likely to pitch the next time. Or I've seen I've seen people like only like every, you know, they'll they'll bat a thousand, but they'll not pitch that often because they only will talk when they know they have this like amazing jewel, which is awesome, but then you don't get like that much material out of some people that are like super funny, super smart. But it, I mean, it's everybody has a different a different style, you know. Like I'm incredibly potentially annoying and loud in a room. Like I have a really loud, like it's I I think I'm I don't know, everyone has a different style. And every and I also I also think that now that I have a show and I have writers and people pitch stuff and it's super funny, but sometimes I can't like envision it for the show. So even though it's wonderful and great, I feel like I can't, you know, pick it up and visualize it for for this project. So it's like there's a million reasons why things get rejected. And I I like oh, I think that people, you know, when they're in charge of their own thing, they put whatever you want in your thing. You know, it's like it's um it's kind of freeing to be able to like put your 100% tone into things. But sometimes I'm like, I feel like, oh, I must not be getting their pitch. Like, like I know their thing is funny if the and the way that they're they're envisioning it. I'm just not seeing the same vision that they are. So there's like there's it's like a benevolent rejection, I would say. Um, when you're when you're in a comedy room. Hopefully it's not um, or like a good comedy room. I feel like uh you know, you don't want to feel like it's barbed or you know, you're overly competitive or mean. It's just you just want everybody participating and loose and having a good time and throwing out. I mean, I just like I just like a lot of content coming. So however we can facilitate that um is is good for me.

SPEAKER_02 14:53

I think, I think for sure, and that you know, the best showrunners are the ones that are facilitating those warm rooms where the person who feels like they need to bat a thousand is freer to swing and miss and and you know, because they have the confidence that the that the reception is going to be warm and loving or at least nurturing. But I I want to go back, I want to go back a little bit because there's there's a this point in your career that you uh that we talked about, but only very briefly. You you're in late night and you're you're doing really well in a lot of the best shows you're on. And then you read a script you love, the unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, and you want to be on that show. Now, you know, the transition from wanting to be on a show to actually being on a show is there's there's that that's a big gap, right? So you must have had samples ready, you must have had, you must have seen the opportunity of this fit into your wheelhouse of some sort, or had contacts or and or both, and were ready to to kind of move on that and make a very big move, I'm guessing, to the kind of writing you were doing before.

SPEAKER_00 15:52

Well, I had, you know, in order to get into late night, I wrote about a zillion packets for every show. I had a zillion things. And then and then over the first writer's strike, I wrote a pilot for a show that was like set in the wilderness about people making an animal show that um became my sample. And then when I wrote on the uh the Colbert report, I didn't have like basically the Kimmy Schmidt kind of oddly sort of came to me in some ways. Like I found out about it through my manager who is one of the producers of the show and reps Tina Faye. So I like had a bit of a shorthand there. Like he just always thought I would fit in really well with them. Um uh so you know, at different points during 30 Rock, like there was one point at 30 Rock, he was like, you know, I think they're looking for somebody. Would you be interested? You know, having no idea if I would get it. But um, it was like when I just got into the Colbert rapport and I was like feeling really loved and fitting in really well, and I loved it. And I was like, I can't, I'm not gonna jump now. Like I just got here. And then um, so I kind of had, you know, and always really wanted to work for Tina and Robert because I admired them so much. But it was just kind of like one, hoping that they would like me, I didn't know that they would, but um also just trying to time it with my own career to feel like it was the the right time to leave something that I truly loved, which but so it wasn't um, I feel like I beat down doors to get into late night. And then in order to jump to episodic, I had like a little bit of a smoother, smoother takeoff, uh I would say.

SPEAKER_04 17:35

So you touched on um when you didn't tell it happened to you, but you said you know, you touched on the importance of sort of a warm room and people feeling welcomed and obviously avoiding meanness. Um so uh you know, I think I want to just touch on that side of things as we skip forward to you now having created your show, and you know, you get the more senior are, the more you get to set the tone for the sort of room you're in. Um I guess on the you know, without necessarily naming specific bad experiences, when you became in charge, what uh things had you seen throughout your career in other rooms that you definitely didn't want to be fostering when you were in charge?

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Well, I think uh well, I've been lucky to to be in pretty pretty good rooms. Uh but I think that some of the things that I feel like I've stolen from both Tina and Robert and Colbert is sort of a no assholes policy, where you know, there's plenty of um talented people out there that are also assholes. And it's not worth their talent to also have the asshole be part of the mix. So it's like, no, we'll find talented people that aren't also assholes. So it I think having that kind of policy and not, you know, and just generally trying to be a as good of a person. I mean, it's hard, it's hard to like I you know, there's a lot demanded of you when you're in charge of a show. And so you're like more stressed than ever, like as you're just like not sleeping and you have deadlines and just it's a lot of it's totally new experiences of being like part of the budget and like all these things that you never had to deal with before as you're just a writer to root. So, but I try to um yeah, just bring like a you know, actually Colbert always said this thing too that um I don't know if he invented or stole from somebody, but or not stole, but just credit somebody else, um, which is like what you know the the late night is kind of a grind in a machine, like it's always gonna be a machine, so it kind of should hopefully be a joy, like just make it a joy machine because it's gonna be a machine no matter what it's gonna take everything from you and be like you've got to feed it and stuff, but you might as well make it a joyful experience or as much as you can. So I try to keep those things in mind, like no assholes in joy machine, as I you know, I don't know that I'm always doing a good job, but I try my best.

SPEAKER_04 20:14

This is the I think it's the like the 73rd or 74th episode of this podcast, and probably two-thirds of the people we've had on have been show runners or show creators. And they all say, well, not I'd say the majority of them have said they try and run a no arseholes policy. So I'm fascinated to know who's employing the arseholes because we can't seem to find anyone who is.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

Um I mean, I don't know. I feel like the assholes were kind of I don't, I don't, I'm not sure. Um I maybe that's more of a director thing, or like it's like the old Easy Riders, Raging Bulls era. Like I feel like it's like people are cultivated the asshole for so long in Hollywood that it was like a calling card in some way that um you know, I I don't know. I don't know who's hiring the assholes.

SPEAKER_04 21:03

Yeah, hopefully nothing, but we'll see.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Maybe it's maybe we've purged the assholes from Hollywood. I don't know, maybe. Yeah, hopefully that would be lovely.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

I I mean, I don't think people realize how often how much time we spend in the room with people and why so many show owners are saying this no asshole policy, because you really have to think about the casting of your room because your one person can throw off the whole dynamic, and that really then throws off the content that you're creating because you're not creating it as effectively, right? I mean, that's I think that's like like, and you don't know until you're in the room. You can call people until until you don't know what you have you got you have until you have.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

Yeah, I mean, there's plenty of there's a million things that are part of a room that it's like so hard to figure out like if some, you know, sometimes people talk too much and aren't on topic, and then that's that's a form of disruption in the room that it's like there's a million. Reason, you know, and even if they're nice, like it's just there's a million things that keep a room from running smoothly that you try to navigate and um keep things on course. And it's it's challenging though. I mean, it's definitely challenging. It's fun though. I mean, for me, I think some of the most fun times, and I don't know, I'm like a late night, like when I'm on a deadline, I'm I'm kind of a vampire. Like I like to write late and it's also like it's quiet then, the production's done and all that. Um, but some of the some of those like late nights are the most fun writing I have um with the crew and everything.

SPEAKER_04 22:40

So sure we just talked a little bit about balance in the room. You mentioned earlier on that um I think you described yourself as potentially annoying in a room.

SPEAKER_00 22:51

So I'm just loud and I have a I have a lot of shit. Like I always have like note, I mean, when when I'm actually in person, I have it would people call it like the Scarino sprawl because I'll have like a laptop, I'll have notebooks, pens, phone, I might have my iPad, like I just take up a lot of space. I also have this habit that of like kind of like an Elaine Bennis thing where I have I if I like something or I laugh really hard, I sort of hit the person next to me to the point where um I'll like slap their arm or something. And to the point where this guy, and as I'm at the mayor room, this guy Brandt Hamilton, he's lovely, hilarious dude. He um we bought him an extra arm that would go over his arm so that I could just hit that instead of making contact with him. Um, those are some of the reasons why I am noticeable in a room.

SPEAKER_04 23:48

Now you're in charge. What sort of leader are you? How would you describe yourself? You also have self-awareness because you wouldn't see the other problems, but it's it's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 23:59

I I feel like I leadership has always been challenging for me because it's it's a funny thing to be a writer and be really good at the writing part, and then all of a sudden, someone to be like, okay, here you're good at this one thing. Now also run be the CEO of a company, you know, uh, which is sort of like what running a show is. So that's definitely the thing where I feel like I'm wearing my parents' suit or something a little bit, you know. Um, but I I like to be, I mean, I I if I feel like I if my positive qualities would be like working incredibly hard. Um, I work very, very hard. And I try to like I feel like I'm more of like a leader by example in some ways and just trying to keep um the the positive energy up and the excitement up and the silliness quotient up. Um but but yeah, being like the the most super organized that that's always been, I mean, I would that's always been a challenge for me. I was like a I I my major was painting. I have a I have an MFA in painting too. Like I'm like a sloppy artist type. Um, and actually speaking of rejection, I was thinking about this and I was like, what are, you know, I got you get wildly rejected in the art world. I was just used to every week, like in art school, standing up and defending my work. And that would be on, and if there are people, these critiques are like kind of relentless. And also right after college, I applied to graduate school for painting, and um, I got rejected from all 13 schools that I applied to. I mean, usually they like people to have more experience and more of better body of work than I had just from undergrad. Um, but still, you know, it's just like I was very, and I and I have like a, you know, I have a very loud Italian family that, you know, my dad is like a scorch. I don't know if that's a real word, but that's how they always describe him as like just being, he just kind of like gives me crap a lot. And so I'm just like used to rejection generally in life. So I think I've um developed like a somewhat of a comfort with with it, um, as being like kind of the price of admission to to doing this, this, this job and this kind of work.

SPEAKER_02 26:42

Definitely a skill that you can you can nurture. Um, I kind of want to ask the flip of what Dan's question was about your leadership skills, because uh you said that you came on, you know, and and we I know this too as a writer, you you have a certain set of responsibilities when you're on staff, and then you're the showrunner, and all of a sudden you have exponentially more responsibilities, some of which we've talked about on this podcast. You there was no way to prepare for it until it actually happened. And now you are, you know, staying up late, handling budgets, handling people, you know, all these different things. So you're now, you know, have multiple seasons of the show that you've that you're currently created. Uh what is the biggest mistakes do you think you made in season one that you were able to like course correct in season two as you learn more about what the job was?

SPEAKER_00 27:26

Um that's a good question. I mean, I I think season one felt because like we went back, you know, we not went back, but we we filmed it before there was a vaccine. And it just felt like every day during, you know, those early days of the pandemic of being able to go to work was such a gift and such a like a lark. Like it was just like, I can't believe we're doing this. And so we everyone, there was like a sense of like gratitude on set every day that was really cool. And so it felt like, oh my gosh, I can't believe we actually shot this thing and filmed this thing and edited this thing um under these circumstances. Uh and then season two. Well, I think the challenge of season, so I think like this might be a mistake that I think people you make all the time, where you always expect, okay, well, I did this thing. Well, it will certainly be easier this time. Like, you know what I mean? Like you're like, oh, well, it'll always be like that. Was challenging, but this will be easier. And then it somehow never is for other reasons. Like there's just some, I don't know, some law of nature. But um I think in season two, I had a new experience of so season one basically we pre-wrote most of the scripts because also because we didn't know when we could actually go into production, um, uh because of COVID and the pandemic and everything. And so we had about six episodes in the can or five and change by the time we actually filmed. And so that was kind of like a nice cushion to be like, okay, I have a couple more scripts I got to finish, but I could do it. I've got a hiatus here. I got weekends here, I've got, you know, nights here. And um season two, we had like a short, shorter runway, like a uh, and then we went into production. So pre-production on season two started like, I don't know, like six or seven weeks in to like the writing. And all of a sudden it was just like, oh my God, we're gonna, we're gonna start, we're gonna start shooting this thing so so soon. So it was it was a different um set of skills I feel like I had to develop in season two, which was more uh like plate spinning and and juggling, which was kind of like running from set to the room to getting scripts, you know, just just like kind of um like uh uh Lucille Ball with the chocolates on the conveyor belt a little bit more like that because because of the way production was um kind of going on at the same time as writing was going on. So I had the room at the same time. Um but I think some of the things I learned in season one, like I was very much because of the circumstances, I didn't have like I had very few writers that could even be on set to kind of help produce their episodes in season one. Um so season two, I still had that issue a little bit, but I had much more of like my writers who are great, like were producing their episodes more and being able to like travel or be on set and take a lot of like you know, kind of be in in charge of the set while I was like back in the room or checking in. Um, but I I do think like every, you know, if I get a season three, it will present a new new challenges. But I I think like what I learned in season two, I would say is just like going into season three is just to be be watching my calendar like a hawk. It that that I think, you know, so I'm not, you know, playing catch up as much as it would be my like goal of season three.

SPEAKER_02 31:21

You you mentioned in that in that answer, uh going from set to the room, and we've been having these discussions, you know, uh with other writers about the room because the pandemic changed the game. We we my room is still virtual, so we don't, but we're a drama show and we're like, well, for dramas, we can say virtual because it's different, but for comedies, this is drama writers who really don't understand comedy fully, but for comedies, they have to be together. We would think because of the synergy. Do yeah, I it sounds like your room maybe did bridge both virtual to in person or a combination of we never did in person.

SPEAKER_00 31:55

Um we've uh I've been virtual for two seasons, and some of the great things about that is that I've it's allowed me to work with great writers that are in LA that I never would normally ever be able to work with, unless because they would, you know, maybe wouldn't move change their whole lives and move east. Um uh my hope is to be more in person this season, uh, if I if I get a new season. Um, but yeah, it's there is something. I mean, every I think every comedy showrunner or writer would probably say the same thing that like Zoom has its benefits. It's like convenient and and kind of easy. Like you can be anywhere, you can uh like you know, it's great to knock out meetings. Like I find it useful for production meetings, for costume meetings, like all the meetings just to like knock out quickly where you don't have to like run around a building. Um, but it's there's something definitely lost it, or it like takes longer. Like I used to describe it as like using instead of like a strainer to strain spaghetti, it's like a using a baseball hat. Like it kind of works, but it also kind of doesn't work. Um, so I feel like it takes maybe it takes a little bit longer, or maybe you miss a joke that might have been built upon or or something just because Zoom's weird and people have over talk and um it's harder to get a flow going or something. I mean, also speaking of rejection, I remember uh I was in like early days of Zoom. I was on a Zoom room and I was pitching relentlessly something that I thought was hilarious. And uh I think I was in the Mr. Mayor room and finally I was like, guys, wait, I just want to like stop. I'm am I on is um can you guys hear me? Am I on mute? Um I think Tina was like, Mayor, yeah, we can we cannot we can heard that pitch. We heard that pitch. I'm like, okay, are you sure you heard it? Um, but but yeah, I mean Zoom works, but it's it's not ideal. There's there's less um some of the absurdity that leads to really funny jokes. I feel like you don't really get the ability to do when you're virtual. But it does work. I mean, it it's not like I'm really, really, really incredibly proud of the these two seasons of the show. Like I don't feel like, oh, if only I had been in person, it would have been better. Like, I I'm totally happy with um how it came out. So it works. Uh, it's just a little weird.

SPEAKER_04 34:46

So unfortunately, we're we're nearer the end of the podcast in the beginning. No, but I I want to ask a question about the future, but before I do, I feel like because you are a comedy writer and you tell good stories, I feel like there's probably an anecdote somewhere that we all should hear. Like, obviously, the the one about pitching in Zoom and not sure if you were on mute or not was the great sort of modern one. But just from your years of of being on these shows, are there any is there one particular moment where an idea you had bombed or something went wrong that you want to share? Because I I'm sure you've got one somewhere without putting any pressure on you.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

I mean, it just it happens so often, it's hard, they don't rise to being noticeable. I mean, I just feel like uh I the thing that I feel like is super comforting about being a comedy writer and the feeling of rejection is that even your heroes, like even the people you think are the funniest people in the whole world, like they pitch turds. Like they also pitch turds. Like you're so do you, like no one that's like no one is this perfect being that just owns it's gold that comes out of their mouth. Like everyone's capable of just making something terrible, I think, or producing something, but but then there's also the good stuff, but it's just part of it. You have to sort through all of it, I feel like to get to the things that work or the things that work in that moment. I mean, sometimes some of your bad pitches then later resurface and you're like, oh, that works in this context. It's totally different. Um, but yeah, I don't know. I maybe I am not easily humiliated. I don't and there, and then and then other people will go, oh yeah, mayor, really, you should have seen what she did there. Um yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 36:57

So let's go to the future because obviously you're in the second season of your own show, which is obviously fantastic. You speak with great affection for your previous life of working on those shows. If you could choose as a next step, uh well, I guess uh your can your current show continuing for plenty more seasons, um or fingers crossed create another new show, but it's you know it's your show and you're in charge and it gets picked up and it runs for a long time. Um maybe with another concept that you've been you know had in the back of your mind for years, and you're someone will now listen to you because you've obviously already created one. Or actually you go back to the old world, but maybe you're you know head writer or the equivalent of showrunner on one of those daily late night shows. Or maybe it's features or something else. Like, what's your dream next?

SPEAKER_00 37:57

I mean, I don't know because I'm so in this, but I'll tell you things I'm interested in. Like I used to be an animator, so I like that was what I did for money basically when I was in grad school. I animated for um, I did shorts for like Comedy Central and Bill Plimpton, this director, and who's um incredible. And uh and so I was not a good animator, but I was an animator. And so I love cartoons. So I would love to do something animated at some point. Like it just it just it blends, you know, peanut butter and chocolate things I like comedy and animation. And then I also like like love the Muppets. Can I write the next Muppet movie? I would like to do that. Um I don't know. I I love writing this show. I I don't really have my eyes on the next thing yet because I feel like I'm still in the middle and don't, you know, don't want to like leapfrog off of it into some the next thing. But I mean there's plenty of of things that excite me for sure out there.

SPEAKER_04 39:06

Muppets could be fun. Well, if you if you do a new Muppets movie, take out cigarettes. Um, we took our kids to see uh Muppets Take Manhattan the other day. It was screaming.

SPEAKER_00 39:16

Oh, the rats smoke, don't they?

SPEAKER_04 39:17

The rats loads of smoking and inappropriate the sexual harassment by what's he called, animal to people. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:25

You know, there's which really Miss Piggy needed to get me too. She she was really aggressive with Kermit. I think that's I think that stuff's taken been taken out, hopefully.

SPEAKER_02 39:36

There's a big crossover possibility for your show with the Muppets showing up and performing and with your babies, and it would just be you know, you can just merge those worlds before you launch the spin-off.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

Um time I will say one quick anecdote, but one time um we had uh not a Muppet, but we had um uh Cookie Monster on the Colbert rapport, and we all got to take our picture with Cookie Monster. And I like there's a picture of me hugging it, and I hugged it so hard that someone said quietly, there's a there's a hand in there. Like they're like, lay off, there's a hand in there. I'm like, okay, sorry. But I was like so excited to meet Cookie Monsters.

SPEAKER_02 40:12

Make sure you don't meet too, the cookie monster by inappropriate kitchen.

SPEAKER_00 40:16

Like you're just just aggressive hugging.

SPEAKER_02 40:19

I'm I'm about to ask you the last question, I promise, but my very favorite experience working in Hollywood was working at the Jim Henton studio for a few weeks. And it was just like you, you, you're you, you, you completely go back to the time in your childhood when these things were such a big part of your life, and you're like the nostalgia it was is definitely huge.

SPEAKER_00 40:38

We had um, we had uh so our director Kimmy Gatewood had worked with um Sesame Street, and there was a point where in season one where she she was directing six and episode six and seven, and um we we didn't have enough money to get to uh use either live crabs in Kev's crabatory like his crab kingdom or hermit crabs or CGI crabs. So she was like, Well, we have we're like, we have to have it move somehow. We need a convincing hermit crab. And so she uh was so resourceful and like called up her friend's sesame workshop. We were shooting an a story at the time, same building, um, at Kaufman, and they made us a puppet that was a hermit crab puppet that was operated by two adult, like two full adults, like just like operating the tiniest little thing on these long sticks. It was it was wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 41:35

It was amazing. You need to have that in the corner, a corner of your office.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:39

Unfortunately, we are now at the time of the podcast where we have to ask our final question. And it's the question we ask everybody that comes on, which is if you could give one piece of advice to somebody coming up in the industry as a writer, what would that be?

SPEAKER_00 41:55

Um Well, I would say I would say the thing that I would say the number one thing to do is to make things. Like I feel like I I often, you know, um get asked from young aspiring writers, how do you get an agent? How do you get a manager? And I feel like those people come when you have something, when you have a job or you have like 90% of your, you know, I feel like your first job is based all on your own hustle. And I mean, most most of the work that you get is really all based on you and how much you hustle and how much you, you know, produce and write. And and so the more that you have, I feel like, because it's not, it's not this magic thing where these agents and managers just like deliver, you know, pick you up in a in a stretch limo and then send you to Hollywood. Like it doesn't really work that way. Um, so I would just say like write, write your face off if you want to write, write what you want to write. The other thing I would say is that in um season one, a couple things I wrote uh or was heavily involved in in season one, which was this song Miracle Only Boy that was about my son, and also this crazy song called I'm Afraid, Don's Song of Fears, which is this laundry list of insanity that like Sarah Borella sings. Um, those were two things that I felt like I was like, are people gonna like this? I I very much connect to it. You know, the one the song is about my son being kind of like wise beyond his ears, one of the, you know, the um like uh many uh solo kids in Manhattan in Manhattan are. And then the other thing was like, I, you know, I have anxiety. So it's like a lot of anxious thoughts that I threw all into one song. They're not all, you know, some of them are just one-off jokes that have nothing to do with things I actually think about, but um that or that, you know, my writers uh contributed. But those two things really resonated with people, and I was so happy because it's like if you it was very affirming because you're like when you think to yourself, okay, I'm having this experience. Is someone else having this experience? And you're not sure, but you write it and you put it out there, and then you start to see. I mean, Twitter's can be a horrible, horrible, horrible um program, but it's also, you know, can be wonderful and and let you know how material is landing with people. And um just to see like those two things especially resonate with people is like really affirming, and you're like, oh, well, if you if it's happening to you, odds are it's happening to somebody else. And like, so just write what you want to write and don't worry about making it look like something that you see. Um, that would be my advice.

SPEAKER_04 44:52

Excellent. Meredith Scordino, potentially annoying in a room, but actually excellent as a podcast guest. Thank you very much for being part of our show.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

Thank you. Thank you guys so much. You guys are awesome to talk to. I could do this all day.

SPEAKER_02 45:10

And that's a rest episode of Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss. As always, we want to thank James Launch for the amazing theme music.

SPEAKER_04 45:18

Before we sort of thank our wives and stuff, do you think anyone actually listens this far, or do they stop when the music comes back in?

SPEAKER_02 45:24

I think they normally stop after you mention your second and third podcast. That'd be my guess. Well, I haven't mentioned them yet, though, have I? Uh if you do want to reach out with us to us for criticisms, complaints, or praise, uh, you can either reach out to us through the website or I am at nevslin on Twitter. And Dan, do you have an account?

SPEAKER_04 45:44

Not that anyone really cares about. So if you've got complaints about the show, go to NEVSlin and feel free to air those. If you have praise or you want to pay us in some way for something, come to at Dan Rutstein. And have a great day.