Take 53 - Brad Wright, showrunner Travelers, Stargate

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for sure, dozens of unproduced scripts littering the floor.

SPEAKER_03 0:14

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

For every success, there is months, sometimes even years, of painful failure.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default. That's the normal thing you would have to be able to persevere. Like everything in our business, your demands can count. That's just years that doesn't happen overnight.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

I was being told by my manager it's yours to lose, and I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking, like, well, that's it for me. I blew my one big shot. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss. And we're excited for the third episode upcoming of our podcast, the second season. But I think we should talk about, I think we have to call it the Thomas phase that we went through in our podcast. We had a Rob Thomas and a Craig Thomas on our podcast. Um, I think we're stopping the Thomases for now, but fascinating episode last week with Craig, a very funny man, but told some brilliant stories, but also a lot to take away from it.

SPEAKER_03 1:32

But with Craig, yeah, I was fascinated by his sort of right out of right out from the gate, he was sort of honest and open and and ready to play in our sandbox of this podcast, and was you know, talking about his overall deal and and how that had fallen apart. And you know, I've I've spent the week mulling over just the fact that he got this, him and his writing partner got this huge success in How I Met Your Mother. I think he said he was 29 years old, and and and what that means later in life and later in career, when you've hit that kind of high, when when when you've you almost can't get any higher uh or any more successful than that show was, and what does that do to you, your psyche? And he was sort of willing to probe those things in such a fascinating way.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Yeah, I think the two things I took away. The first one was his extraordinary story about a Fox executive not liking the games part of the Goodwin games and how the show got made when the most senior person at the studio didn't even know what it was about, says a lot about Hollywood. I've actually told that story about three times in real life in the past seven days because I just find it so absolutely fascinating. And the second takeaway, slightly less important, is I started following Craig on Twitter, which naively I hadn't done before. And he is incredibly funny. Almost every day there is a laugh out loud moment from him. So not only is he very good at writing shows like How I Met Your Mother, he's also very good at the shorter form of writing as well. So I've enjoyed that, and I commend other people to do the same.

SPEAKER_03 3:05

A very rare thing actually happened at the end of that podcast is I got a call from my mother who said, I loved your podcast. Now, my mom does not normally listen to my podcast, and I was about to, you know, feel very proud of myself that there was something I must have said that made her happy, or maybe, you know, God forbid that you said that made her happy. But it turns out she really loved Craig Thomas, loved his stories, and told me that this is Craig, this is for you if you're listening, that she wants you to try to get the Goodwin Games back on the air because she really now wants to watch that show. And she thinks that I have the power to ask you to actually make this show happen again. So, from my mom to you, Craig, will you put the Goodwin Games back on the air with the games part front and center? Because she now wants to watch.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

There you go. So nose, mom. Who'd have thought the power of podcasting that some bloke from Hawaii's mom is suddenly now trying to change the destiny of a studio with her requests? So look, we uh we skipped the question of the week last week, uh, but I wanted to bring it back this week. So we had a question actually from a Thomas as well, but Thomas is a first name, it's different. Uh so we had Thomas from Lake Balboa, uh, which is obviously in LA, asking the question of Noah, which is actually quite an interesting question, which is obviously you are a full-time writer, Noah, but what has the podcast and your new set of showrunner friends and your new profile meant for your actual day-to-day writing career?

SPEAKER_03 4:32

You know, interestingly enough, I think the podcast and you know, this new the show that I'm currently on sort of happened roughly at the same time. So I haven't actually been on the job market to say, oh, this is this has been a there's been a fundamental change in my career. But what has happened, which just I've kind of found really interesting, is you know, we've had 53 interviews. I'd say this is, I'm just making up this number, of the 53, 46 maybe were our showrunner-level writers. And uh that seems to be our bread and butter. And those conversations really help me go it get into their shoes and get into their mindset, not as not as like, oh, if I'm a showrunner one day, but as sort of a mid-level writer uh in the trenches, kind of understanding more about what they're going through on a day-to-day basis and the angst that that they're feeling and the pressure. And I always say, you know, the number one thing that any mid-level junior writer, junior, mid-level, even high-level writer is trying to do on any staff is make the job of the showrunner easier. And this has definitely helped my process of like understanding on a certain level, you know, what they're going through, because, you know, in many senses, 100% of our job is writing, but also 1% of our job is writing, if that makes any sense. There's a lot more involved in sort of getting a show on the air. So on the non-writing side, it's a very kind of in an interesting cerebral, uh, educational, fascinating once-in-a-lifetime situation for me where I get to sit in front of these amazing people and not only pick their brains in a way that I wouldn't normally get to, but you know, come to a point of sort of connected understanding and and and communal conversation about their angst. And I feel like not only do I know them better, but we we connect in a way that you don't normally get to. So this is sort of a weird side effect of all of that, which I think kind of brings me into the guests that we had tonight, today, which is going to come on our podcast. Uh, and you know, Brad Wright, who who you'll find it was a show owner of many different shows, Canadian writer, who uh just had a really cerebral approach to his career and a really fascinating, in-depth conversation about, you know, what it's like from you know, from his side of from where he stands, but also kind of really reflective on a long and very successful career, which is ironic because we're a podcast about failure.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

Yeah, and sorry, just to tie off the thing about how the podcast was affecting the writing career, no one's asked, but I'll just let you know. You know, I wrote a pilot, and despite now knowing 46 different showrunners, no one has picked up my show yet. One person who's not a showrunner did ask to read it, but then never gave me any notes. So it hasn't really helped my career very much. But this isn't about my career, this is about all of your careers for our listeners. Um, so sorry, going back to Brad Wright, fascinating intro. It it's a it's nice for you'll hear it on the podcast. The the grammar improves, the civility of the questioning and the guests improve by having a Canadian. And if we had a transcript of the podcast, you'd see that the spelling would have improved. But it's nice to have Canadians back on. I think it's good for everybody. And he's just uh weirdly another example of a very successful Canadian who, as you'll hear, didn't have to make the move down here to make down here to Hollywood to make his career work. So it's another show runner, some fascinating stories, some real great advice again, and something to take away. So, with no further ado, we'll leave you with us interviewing Brad. All right, let's do it. Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. As ever, I am your English non-entertainment co-host, Dan Rutstein.

SPEAKER_03 8:30

And I am your industry co-host, Noah Epslin. Today I'm delighted to introduce TV writer, showrunner, and show creator Brad Wright. Brad started his career on the Black Stallion before working on such shows as Highlander, The Odyssey, the Poltergeist TV series, and the outer limits, amongst others, before creating or developing Stargate SG1, Stargate Atlantis, Stargate Universe, and Travelers. Welcome, Brad. Good to be here.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

Hi, guys. All right, so I think we're going to start off with the sort of geography, not question, but theme. So a weirdly disproportionate number of our guests are from Canada. So in this sort of special edition of screaming into the Vancouver abyss, can you just tell us what it's like living the sort of TV writer Hollywood world life, but in the much more serene and comfortable life that you can have up north of the border?

SPEAKER_04 9:32

Well, uh, I mean, the difference between me uh and a lot of the people that I think he may be uh talking about is that I stayed in Canada. I mean, I a lot of my friends, uh Hart, David, lots of folks, uh, Martin Garrow, all tried to resume and build their careers down in LA. And I kind of dug in my heels because it was back in the 19, uh, I think it was 94, when MGM started making the Outer Limits in Canada. And I knew they were going to try to do Canadian content and would be looking for Canadian writers. And so my theory was always uh if they'll come to me, why would I want to leave? So MGM, MGM uh started working in the Bridge Audios on the Outer uh studios on the Outer Limits, I guess in '93 or '94. And I was there working for them for the next 20 years, uh, between the Outer Limits and Stargates.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

So and you're right, the other, as many of the other Canadians we've had on have made the move here. I think a couple of others have just about in various ways managed to resist. Are there any times where being on the outside do you think has harmed you, given not so much now, but earlier in your career where there's a bit of a circuit and you might need to turn up at parties and show?

SPEAKER_04 10:53

100%. I mean, there's absolutely no LA is where the business happens, you know, if you want to do anything other than uh Canadian television, which I began in. I started I started in Canadian television. My first show was actually not the Black Stallion, it was Neon Rider, which is the most Canadian Canadian show you could possibly define. It's uh it was about a guy who ran a dude ranch for troubled kids. And I mean, that is, you know, it's got horses, it's got, you know, all the hallmarks of of what makes a Canadian show a Canadian show. Um, but um, but yeah, I was I was uh it's very easy to when you're a Canadian writer trying to stay in Canada to be considered you know outside. That's like, but on the other hand, if once you become a successful Canadian writer, it's it's unusual for people to assume you stay. I mean, I cannot tell you, no matter what show I've been on. Um, at RAP, somebody in the front office would say, so when are you moving back to LA? And I I go, I don't. I live here, right? I live in Canada.

unknown 12:01

Really?

SPEAKER_04 12:02

Because all their bosses for so many years, you know, come from LA and have flown up from LA. And so um uh I I feel really lucky to have forged a Canadian career and to stay in Canada while uh while at the same time working uh for an American studio for many years and uh and having an international audience as a result. And the money that goes along with it, frankly. I it's uh it's uh it's it's the best of both worlds as far as I'm concerned. I I feel pretty lucky.

SPEAKER_03 12:37

I'm gonna get into some, we're gonna get into some deeper sort of failure and rejection stories in a second, but I I want to stay on this Canada theme because I'm actually sort of fascinated by something where the the common myth, or not even the myth, the the common advice you'd get in the 90s and 2000s would be if you want a career in TV writing, you move to LA. Like that's where the industry is. And you you can sort of try and earn your bones on the outside, but once you have scripts and you're ready to go, you have to move to this, to, to, to LA. Now, we've now interviewed you know half a dozen or more Canadians who bucked that trend, who stayed in Canada, never ever decided to move to LA. No, a handful of them did move and had big careers here. But is there like a secret amongst you van, you know, Canadians or be like, no, we have a great industry here. Let's not tell too many people because it's our kind of we have a lock on this industry, and we'd rather keep that our secret.

SPEAKER_04 13:31

No, it's not that uh it's not like we have a lock. It's just that honestly, uh I, you know, there's there's if you can get on a show, uh even if it's like uh especially a genre show, you know, they're looking for Canadian writers and Canadian directors to and and to take advantage of the Canadian content. Uh it's it's it's something that didn't actually happen very much. And and and in a way, I I feel slightly proud of the fact that when Stargate happened, I mean, even when Outer Limits happened, I was I was um I was trying to get work uh as a co-exec producer on the Outer Limits uh for fellow Canadians so that we you know we could have uh to grow our talent pool in in this country and to keep a bunch of folks here. And you know, David Shore did an outer limits, Hart Hansen did an outer limits, and both of them did Stargates, but a sustained career in Canada is difficult. Um and I just happened to, you know, with MGM helped create shows that stayed on the air a really long time. So, you know, and and and consequently kept looking and kept hiring more Canadians who who who stayed. Um but you know, I I have no doubt that had some of my early meetings uh down in LA, uh had had I can't one point. This is this is an interesting turning, yeah. We all have turning points in our lives. Uh one for me was um in my, I think it was my first season on the outer limits or late in my early in the second season. Uh yeah, it was definitely in the second season because uh uh Star Trek read or uh one of my uh Outer Limits episodes called Quality of Mercy and offered me uh a gig on, I guess it was Deep Space Nine at the time. And I chose to stay with the Outer Limits. I could have ended up going, moving to LA and becoming part of that franchise, but I just felt like my uh I I was in a stronger position on the outer limits. And I think that ended up being a a good decision because then Stargate happened and then that went 17 seasons.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

One has to be uh very careful, particularly nowadays, about making sweeping statements about one particular race, religion, uh country, geography. But obviously, like and I hope I don't offend any uh non-Canadians here, but like British people, Canadians are well known for being uh charming and polite and civilized and nice and easy to work with. Are this sort of group of successful Canadians? Do you think actually being Canadian and growing up in Canada does give you an advantage in this world, or is that just nonsense?

SPEAKER_04 16:33

No, I I think I think I mean every successful Canadian showrunner I know, uh, and I know a few, uh are all capable of fighting a fight. You know, I I mean I don't just just because we're polite and just because we're rational, reasonable folks, doesn't mean if you're an asshole, I won't be an asshole right back at you. You know, I I I have in fact, if you're an asshole, it's very it's very easy for me to, you know, to uh summon my inner asshole and fight it because uh that's easy to fight, you know. Uh uh if you're uh I I think Canadians have excellent communication skills and I think play fewer games uh in terms of uh in terms of uh how we deal with uh agents and and stuff like that. I don't even know if that's true. That's just in my uh, you know, the some of the folks I know are like that. Um but there are uh there are assholes in in every uh country, as you well know. And uh I'm sure we have our share. Uh uh we I I tend to want when when I'm uh doing a show, and and Eric McCormack, day one, uh 10 minutes into our conversation, both declared for travelers that we have a no assholes policy. Uh and and uh and some people say, oh, if they're a genius, they're worth putting up with it. Oh no, sorry, life's too short. That's my other acronym, LTS, life's too short. Um because you know it's so easy for some people to just, you know, make it seem much harder than it should be, to make to make uh a television show, the making of a television show, you know, painful in some way. It does, it shouldn't be. I mean, we're making shit up for a living. That should be as fun as possible. And the more fun you're having, the more likely it'll be that you'll want to come to work the next day and do it again and do it as well as you can. And and that has always been my rule, whether you're Canadian or American. And I have several like-minded American friends who think the same way.

SPEAKER_03 18:47

I don't think I can mention the person's name, but I was on a show that had a definite no-assholes policy after this person had created a show that didn't have that policy. And the two shows were on the air at the same time. And you could really tell the difference with the show that had the no-asshole policy, and it was a much warmer, happier, lovely environment. And it it makes a difference. Two people are whether they're actors or writers or producers or whatever, side by side, and one has a reputation for something and the other one doesn't. I think the world has changed enough that that the other person that doesn't is now kind of it's just this light, life is too short. But but leading into my question, you know, you you mentioned um 17 years on Stargate. So we're gonna talk, we're gonna touch upon that in a little bit. But I want to talk about right before that, because obviously there's a different kind of angst when you have this massive show that has gone on for so long and the fan base and this craziness, and we, you know, we can talk about the you know kind of the ups and downs of that. But was there ever a period before that where it just felt like this career wasn't gonna work out for you?

SPEAKER_04 19:50

Early, no. I I I uh I have to say early on uh from uh the day I started. This is all I'm old, right? So this was a long time ago. And and uh I I had lots of opportunity uh when I started in this business as a very junior writer. Uh I just had an affinity for dialogue and and affinity for story and and went from show to show, had offers. Um uh but I because I'm a person who uh wanted to do sci-fi, um I I uh I tried as hard as I could to get on the outer limits because I knew that would be a dream gig. And so and then that went for I was I was on the outer limits and Stargate for two years simultaneously. So there was no there was no before Stargate where I was uh but you know to keep it in the theme of your of your podcast, the you know the the rejection and the and the uh and then you know it's it's just not working for me happened after Stargate. It happened um uh I guess I took I took maybe a little too much time off because I had just gone and sing. I mean I had just made several hundred hours of television and said, you know what, I haven't seen my wife enough and I I haven't traveled anywhere and I'm just gonna go hang out with my kids. And but then uh I I just I I just thought, you know what, I should I'll go down. I I've had a you know a long list uh of shows. I've got a good career. I I should be able to pitch a show and and sell it. And you know, it did not happen. It it it um I it for two reasons. First of all, I was a little bit lasse faire about how hard it was going to be. Uh uh and two, nobody knew who I was because when you when you are with One company uh with MGM for as many years as I was, four years of The Otter Limits, uh, 17 seasons of Stargate, other pilots, um, uh movie deals with them. I mean, I I I worked a long time for MGM, and then basically MGM went away. It was a structured bankruptcy, bankruptcy. They literally, everyone I knew there, everyone who was there, just poof, you know, so-and-so no longer works at MGM when you call them. And to the point where uh there was no one, literally no one at MGM I knew. And and so I felt like a brand new writer. That feeling that you're that you're trying to uh you know get from me early on didn't happen. I just I went from job to job to job and thought, oh my god, this is easy. And then with more experience than than most people ever get, because I've made so many shows um uh and so many seasons of television, I I found myself meeting people and introducing myself, and they had no idea who I was. Uh like uh and it's because you know I was out of the loop literally for 20 years.

SPEAKER_03 23:15

Well, almost 20 years. I want to I want to dig into that a little bit because when I started my career, you know, it took me a little while to staff, so I had to sell pitches and I did, but my you know, my batting average wasn't very high because I was a new writer. And whenever I didn't sell a pitch, I'd be like, well, you know, who am I anyways? Like, you know, to sell a pitch, and I'm really happy when I do, and I can't take it personally when I don't. I'm a young writer. But I can only imagine as you get more established in your career, when you have hundreds of hours of TV beneath you, know they they they know you know how to, you know, make this pie, so to speak. So, and then you they also know you can do it at a very high level to a high level of success. So when you go in and you pitch and they don't buy it, can you not help but take it personally? What is that? What is that what happens on the inside? Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 24:04

It's like, does it say showrunner anywhere in my uniform? It's it's uh you you just you just oh, and then little things like that happen. Like Tiff had a showrunners uh uh symposium in Vancouver and flew in people from other places and didn't invite me. And I was like, hello, I think I'm probably the Vancouver's most uh prolific showrunner. Uh and and I don't know, but yeah, it's it is frustrating, and you do take it personally. So much so, and this is this is even five or six years ago. I went and uh pitched a uh a show in a showtime. I I uh I won't say the name of the executive, but uh I I had known him for years because the Outer Limits um started on Showtime, so did Stargate. And it's not like I knew him, knew him, but we I'm I'm sitting across from him and we're doing the small talk, and you know, yeah, yeah, oh good. Why why are you even here? Why why aren't you off on a yacht somewhere? What what are you doing? What do you what are you here, you know, trying to get another show? And I I answered it just honestly. I said, because I love to work, because I uh I love writing, but you could you could say that of hundreds of of people uh in this business who've had successful careers, just because you've done well doesn't mean you want to stop and should stop. And uh so I was I was both offended by that and by the fact that they didn't, you know, buy the pitch. But um he did he did say, wow, wow, man, that was a fabulous pitch. That was great. And and in his and I think genuine uh uh surprise and and enthusiasm for for the uh the quality of the pitch was an implied, but we're not gonna buy it. And and yeah, I got I had got so much of that. It's like, wow, yeah, no, it's great to meet you, and the implied, but you're not gonna buy it, until until uh travelers came along. Uh and and then I had the opposite. I thought I had sold it in the room every time. And uh and uh so did my agent, and we were like, oh, this is gonna be great. And then a couple of days would go by and they would say, Yeah, we loved it. And we and when but when we pitched it upstairs, we found we didn't understand it. They couldn't, they couldn't communicate, um they couldn't communicate it well enough to their bosses, I suppose. I don't know. I ended up selling it at Netflix, so it worked out fine. But um uh it that that's where I was, I mean, I had a couple of I had a I think a full year, two years where I thought I couldn't, I didn't even get a pilot, I didn't even sell a pilot script. And I was like, holy shit, I I might be done. And then I and then I, you know, I think sci-fi gave me a pilot, and and unfortunately it was uh the year they picked up the expanse. So uh that didn't go over. It was not a good year to be pitching sci-fi.

SPEAKER_01 27:13

So I just want to explore, as I often do, the this this in-between phase. So you're off Stargate, you're you're in this phase of trying to find the next one. And you you said there, you know, I think half-jokingly, you thought you were maybe done, but actually, how close to thinking you were done were you?

SPEAKER_04 27:33

Um as close as I am now, I mean, I might be done now. I mean, you're only as good as your last show to a certain extent. And you know, it's I I think it comes from um when you you when you go into pitch, and no, you know that, when you go into pitch a series or or uh you don't go, hey, here's an idea, unless you're, you know, I'm sure there are people who can do that, but you you fully form a concept. You you you you know what the pilot is, you know what the end of season one is, you know what the arc of season two is, you know what the character who the characters are intimately, you know these things. And you feel like you know how to make it into a show because you've done it before and you go, oh yeah, this is gonna work, and you can defend it, you know what I mean? So when you do that and you pitch everybody and every and then and then and you go, holy shit, that's that's everybody, isn't it? They've all they all passed. You have just spent, I don't know, somewhere between three to six months of your life doing something that is never gonna see the light of day. And that that is as that is probably the most disheartening thing.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

So I guess in some ways how many three to six months is do you have left in terms of well, I don't know, you should ask my doctor. But uh if you go out and you do three versions of that, if you got a number in your head, how many times before you will stop? Here's the thing it's it's not about that.

SPEAKER_04 29:09

It's and and it's not about I mean I need what I need to go because of this pandemic, and I'm sure we all are the same way, but when I go ultimately with my wife and get to sit on a beach and look at the ocean and and and and relax, even though I haven't done much. But I I we will do this as soon as it's it's cool again. I will go to Hawaii. I know that's where you're from, Noah. I don't I I I don't know how you leave it. But um, but then I'll sit on the beach and I'll get an idea. And I'll and I'll go, ooh, ooh, and I'll and I'll search for my uh you know iPad and I'll start writing down the idea and and I'll go, ooh, and I just it's it's it's writers do that, you know. When you when no there will come a point, and maybe I'm already there, but there will come a point where I'll come up with ideas that nobody wants to to buy, but I don't think I'm there yet, and and I don't want to be there yet. And um I I never I am never short of ideas. I'm never I mean you know, whole ideas sometimes come to you and you and you just go, this would be a great series, or this would be a great whatever movie. I I think a lot in movie and then try to turn it into a series because in well obviously in features the writers, you know, the the current writer and in television the writer is the boss, and I I much prefer being the boss. When you hand over a feature script and and they they you find out what they're going to do to it, and and uh you go, uh this is never gonna get me. And then it doesn't, and you know, so um no, I I I I may be done now. I hope I'm not done, is the short answer to that question.

SPEAKER_01 31:05

What does success look like for you now? Because obviously Stargame is amazing, but you don't presumably you don't you probably haven't got 17 years of show running in you in terms of that again, given how tired you were last time. Do you want to create something that maybe lasts for 17 years, but you only do the first two of it? Or do you want to just have a one season of the television you've always wanted to make, however commercially successful, but it's the show you wanted? Like, what does what's your dream project at this stage of your career?

SPEAKER_04 31:38

I would love to do some version of Travelers Again, which which was uh um a show they let me make, um very much on our terms with great people, uh not a huge budget, but but enough to pay people well and what they deserve. And uh and and and to and to just have the fun of being in a writer's room and of making 10 episodes of something. I mean, the uh to a lot of people, the 10 episode transition in television uh has been unfortunate. But at one point, as as I think Drill probably told you, when we were doing Atlantis and SG1 at the same time with one writing department, one production design department, one front office, one editing department, uh the uh that's 40 hours a year. What making 10 a year feels luxurious? It feels like, oh my god, I can focus on every one of these. I can I can I can pull my put my whole heart in this, and then I get a great period of time to recharge before I have to do it again. I love that. Um, and and so um, and I and I have to put a little disclaimer here. I Stargate went 17 seasons, but I I did not run every season. And in fact, it was one of the successes of the show was I promised the my my uh my well, they everybody starts as an executive story editor and became co-producers and uh co-execs and finally executive producers. And and I said, you know, you'll get your chance to run the show. Rob Cooper started as my executive story editor, became my uh uh executive producing partner for for Atlantis and and ran the last couple of seasons of uh of SG1 along with uh uh Paul and Joe, uh Joe Mulatsy, Paul Mully. And and they got to run the show for a period. But I never I never walked away. I always I love spinning stories so much, I love the writers' room so much. I I um uh I I participated in that. And then uh when when it came time, I uh to go to the cottage with my uh wife and kids, I went, okay, bye guys, have fun, I'll come back and make another one. And ultimately we what we ended up with was this um everyone was capable of running the show, uh which which is uh maybe what started with the outer limits. Every uh every writer producer on the outer limits ran with their own episodes, and and we got into a kind of a rotation, and uh, and because they were each one us, there was no need to hand off anything except you know, we had to control budget, we had to be on the same page about that. And but um but yeah, the idea of doing another 10-episode uh show and uh and and nothing goes 17 seasons anymore. I'm I'm not worried about that. And if it did, that would, you know, somebody else would do somebody else would do any everything after season three, I guarantee it. I'm too old for this. But um, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't want to come and play. That doesn't mean I wouldn't want to come and sit in the writer's room and spin story and and the joy that comes with making shit up.

SPEAKER_03 35:00

I have a question, which I'm gonna put a pin in because you made me think of something else. I want to come back to my question in a real question in a second. Okay. We talk about, you made me think about something that we don't have in this industry, but we really should the showrunner emeritus status, where it's you have a show, it is your show, your name's on it, created by developed by, you've taken a step away, but you want to stay on the board, so to speak. You want to stay in the room, you want to stay on as a consultant. And I very rarely have ever seen that, and I think maybe for control issues, that happening where somebody actually, you see their names on it, but many times they're they've been, you know, pushed to the side. Is that a situation that would be you know interesting to kind of be the guy that just sort of keeps the train not on the track, so to speak, as a showrunner, but sort of going in the general direction after the first three or four seasons of you know, hands-on work?

SPEAKER_04 35:49

Well, that's what I did. That's is exactly what I think I did with Stargate. I I uh help I came in every now and then when they waved their hands and said, Brad, what do we do? But but uh and I and I came and I would write an episode and produce it, and I would play in the writer's room and and I would deal with the sometimes political bullshit that happens and be able to be the you know the bad cop in that situation. The reason I think it worked is I had an enormous amount of respect and love, if you will, for for my for my team. They I they knew I wasn't going to come in and try to take anything away from them when I showed up. I I had to bite my lip and bite my tongue sometimes when they were making decisions that are not the decisions I would make. And episodes of Stargate were made that I would have never approved. But, you know, if you're going to hand over the keys, you got to let the guy or woman drive. You know, you're the driver now. Here's the keys, go drive. Doesn't mean I don't want to ride in the car once in a while, but you know, and it's you know, I think I don't, I'm not sure how we all realized how good we had it at the time. I kind of did because I I hadn't had more experience. And other there, a couple of other people had more experience and understood how how lucky we had it. Um but yeah, if you if you could have that, uh if you could always if you can go and come back, that speaks well of not only your relationships with with that show, but but with the but with the people who let you come in and trust you not to try to take it back.

SPEAKER_03 37:32

That seems to be one of the key differences. And now now I am gonna thank you for that answer. I'm gonna circle back to my question. You said something a while back about not being able to quit. And that made me think a lot. We've had we've had over 50 guests on this podcast so so far. And I'm starting you know, and we talk the thesis is failure, rejection, and adversity and what it takes to overcome those things. But one of the, and we're kind of really kind of diving deep into this, into some of these issues, but you brought up something new, which is the inability to quit. And I'm wondering if that's something that separates the successful writers from those who almost succeeded. The the the the fact that we don't quit and we really can't quit. Meaning, like you said, you're on the beach, you're in a boy, you're relaxing, you've promised your wife a vacation, suddenly you have an idea day two on the beach in Maui, and you're back to your iPad, right? That's and she's like, What are you doing? We're supposed to be going on a whale watching trip. And you're like, you don't get it. Of course, she does get it. She's your she's she's your wife. But can you talk a little bit more? Because you think that is is that is that a curse for us? Is that our greatest gift? What do you think about the inability to quit as as kind of what keeps us moving forward?

SPEAKER_04 38:38

I think um I think it it would be a curse and will become a curse if if I'm never invited to play again in any sandbox, in any real sandbox. I think I'll get frustrated if people just say, no, no. But if I think I'm if I'm if I write something and I read it and I go, geez, I think this is pretty good, and I put it away and I read it again a week later and go, yeah, I think this is pretty good, then I I will stay, I will defend it. I will, I will, I will go pitch it again. I will because um when let me go back in time a little bit to to frame my answer a little better. When I was starting, uh when I, you know, in the 80s and 90s, I felt that there was a lot of people who wrote in a very old-fashioned sort of way, uh, in terms of dialogue and and you know, delivered some fairly stock scenes. Uh and and I and so then I do travelers years later, thinking I'm being innovative and thinking I'm being, you know, I'm keeping up with television. And some someone on the internet will say, oh, oh, it was it was uh pretty Aaron spelling writing. And I'll just it it's it just that will make me cringe. That particular, you know, to be accused of of being um old-fashioned or behind the times, that is that that that'll if if that's what happens, then I'll just stop. I'll just go, God, screw this, and I'll finally become a single-digit handicap golfer. But um uh until then, and I think I think my my stuff is uh is keeping up, and I think that's that's the key with not just writers. I mean, I look at it with directors too, when I hire directors, and if they're still doing the same shit they were 10 years ago, it it shows, you know, uh television is is evolving and and the way we make television visually, all of those things. And I want the the man or the woman who is saying, hey, I I want to try this. I I just saw this, I think this would work for this scene. And yes, please, you know, let's let's try that new thing. And and and you know, uh writers who say, I know this is a weird attack on this scene, but you know, let's try it. Absolutely, let's try it. Let's not let's not get stuck. Uh and I think as you know I think as long as you are continuing to to to improve your yourself, that's when the no you never quit. You know what I mean? I think when you quit on your own ability, you when you quit on your own, when you quit on your own self as a writer, that's when you probably should quit.

SPEAKER_01 41:30

So we're straying into uh advice now, which is good because unfortunately we're down to our final question, which is where we ask you if you could give a single piece of advice to somebody wanting to enter the industry, what would it be?

SPEAKER_04 41:46

I knew you were gonna ask this question. So uh, but I I don't have one single piece. I I here's one of the things I do say to young people, uh, or you know, uh the children of uh parents who say, My son wants to be a writer too. Can you help? I I always go, well, uh, do they write? No, but they're really talking about, well, then you know, they that's step one. If they're not writing on their own, I mean, I wrote my first plays and made produced my first plays in high school. And um so I say, so I say generally speaking, whether you want to be an actor, whether you want to be a writer, uh if if you can be stopped by adversity, you probably should be, because there's too much adversity uh in the actual making of the of the show uh for anything to for you to allow something to stop you. So generally speaking, if you keep beating your head against the wall, those 10,000 hours will have an effect. If you keep writing, if you keep doing it, but but uh but here's where the here's the the unique part, uh I think of of my answer. You will work in this industry. I just can't guarantee at what level. You know, you may not be a showrunner, you may not be, you know, the kind of person who who could could uh you know could run a room. You may just be a staff writer, you may be a script coordinator who gets uh who gets to be around it all and gets who gets to throw in the idea every now and then. Uh you may be a playwright. You you may end up only doing um, you know, uh amateur theater. It doesn't matter. You will work at some level if that is where your heart is. And the more your heart is there, the more likely it is you'll work at a high the highest level you're capable of. Uh because and that this see, I don't have one answer to this question. Whatever you do, whatever you write, whatever you whatever you put on page, on the page to show anyone, it has to be competent, of course. It has to be clean, of course, it has to be as smart as you're capable of making it, but it has to have this one element uh that that makes it lift off the page that makes that makes a script worthy of making. And that is it has to have heart. I don't care if that is an emotion that moves me to tears or to laughter or to fear, suspense, any, it doesn't matter. However that manifests, it's it's that heart, however it is imbued, will move the the reader to the point where they'll go, this this is what this will translate to the screen. If it doesn't have that, no one's gonna care, no one's gonna watch it. And and and that's that's the number one thing I look for because I can fix everything else. I can't add that without changing it completely.

SPEAKER_01 44:55

Yeah. Having heart, absolutely. Look, uh Brad Wright, long time showrunner and very polite Canadian. Thank you very much for being part of our podcast.

SPEAKER_04 45:06

I enjoyed it, guys. Uh uh, keep making it. I'll uh I'll look forward to listening to them.

SPEAKER_03 45:11

Thank you so much, Brad. Bye-bye, guys. And that's a wrap on this episode of Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss. As always, we want to thank James Launch for the amazing theme music.

SPEAKER_01 45:28

Do you before we sort of thank our wives and stuff, do you think anyone actually listens this far, or do they stop when the music comes back in?

SPEAKER_03 45:35

I think they normally stop after you mention your second and third podcast. That'd be my guess. I haven't mentioned them yet, though, have I? Uh if you do want to reach out with us to us for criticisms, complaints, or praise, uh, you can either reach out to us through the website or I am at NEBslin on Twitter. And Dan, do you have an account?

SPEAKER_01 45:54

Not that anyone really cares about. So if you've got complaints about the show, go to NEBslin and feel free to air those. If you have praise or you want to pay us in some way for something, come to at Dan Rutstein. And have a great day.