Take 69 - Director and Showrunner James Roland, Blood Drive, The Purge

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for sure, dozens of unproduced scripts littering the floor.

SPEAKER_03 0:14

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

For every success, there is peace, sometimes even years. Failure. This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default.

SPEAKER_03 0:31

That's the default thing we have to be able to persevere. Like everything in our business, your hands get council.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

I was being told by my manager it's yours to lose, and I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking, like, well, that's it for me. I blew my one big shot. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

So 3-2-1. Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. I am, as I am every week, your non-entertainment English co-host, Dan Rotstein.

SPEAKER_03 1:17

And I am, at least this week, your industry co-host, Noah Evels. Today I'm excited to have on TV show creator and showrunner James Rowland. James has worked in a tons of in a ton of different capacities in Hollywood, including second unit director and first AD. We're first saying going over to writer and producer, where he created Blood Drive and was the EP and co-showrunner of The Purge. Welcome, James.

SPEAKER_02 1:41

Thanks, you guys. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

So people don't understand how tiring it is being a podcast host, having to come up with questions all the time. And given that you're a regular listener to the podcast and you know how this all works, rather than me having to come up with some clever question to start with, I'm just gonna make it easy for myself. Um you've come on our show. Tell us why you think you've got something to contribute about rejection and adversity here, please.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

Um oh my god, right off the bat. Uh, what's my worst failure? Um, because I failed. Um I have, yeah. What do you want to hear the story? You want to hear a story? Just want to hear an anecdote.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Yeah, what not? Let's start with an anecdote. Why not?

SPEAKER_02 2:24

Uh, you want to hear how when I was an assistant director, I had Harry Belafonte up on wires on a short film playing a vampire, and had never done wire work before. So I completely screwed up the schedule and had to sit down with the producer and Harry Belafonte's daughter, who was a producer, and Danny Motor, the DP, who's now a big time, you know, DP did Animal Kingdom and stuff. And they had they had to say, What's we don't understand what's going so wrong on this shoot. And the only thing I had to say to them was, I've never done this before, and I'm in over my head, and I need your help. Um, until you face yeah, until you face that firing squad um of of of looks. Um, man, do you not until then do you know your place? But um, but yeah, no, no, I've I've been there. I've I've screwed up, I have failed.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

I'm sure there'll be lots of rejection value questions, but let's just how did all this play out? Did the like the wires didn't break or anything?

SPEAKER_02 3:31

No, no, they didn't know nobody died. Nobody I did not uh kill a civil rights legend. Um, no, I um uh it was actually kind of amazing. It was actually an amazing lesson to learn early on because there was a pause, and then into that vacuum of huh, what the hell do we do? Um, everybody just stepped up. Everybody went, oh, cool, boom, boom, and just jumped in. Um now, going back to the failure thing, I don't think that short film was ever completed. So I and that might have been the nail in the uh that might have been the stake in the vampire's heart. But the that all of that to say that later on, the producer did come up to me and said that Danny Motor in particular had come up to her afterwards and said, I've been working in this town forever. I think he comes from, I think his family worked in the business too. I think he's a lifer. And um, I'm not sure, don't hold me to that. But he uh he said to the producer, I've never, ever had anybody cop to their mistakes before. Like he's never had anybody do that. Um, and so as a result, they all kind of rallied and we did the best we could or whatever. Um, but that was a that was a lesson learned, that that kind of honesty and communication, uh like no no bullshit. That's something that I have applied to showrunning and like and all of that stuff. Like if I've been over my head, you just gotta fess up to it. And you know, unless you feel like you can get through it, like there's a you know, but if you're re if you're really screwed, you gotta you gotta cop to it and then hire a crew and have people around you that can um that are better than you so that they can help you.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

Given although we say this show is about rejection, failure and diversity, it's really about how you come out the other side. So just on that point about the the honesty and coping to the mistake, when you say it's something you learn from, is that both you later on in your career when you're more senior, admitting when you're still struggling, or is it more about the teams who work for you giving them space to admit that they're in over their heads so you don't get stuck in both both, both, and then also how it applies to how you can get ahead of it is um is uh oh I spaced on what I was gonna say.

SPEAKER_02 5:37

Um, oh no, just very early on going on and building a rapport and trust with crew members so they feel like it is a safe place to come to you when they're not able to solve a problem. That's a key thing, too, because it's really I've been in their shoes. I've been scared. Oh, I'm gonna get fired. I am never gonna work again. But I have to cop to this. And and and I and because it's a scary thing to say, you know, my skill level is here, but what I need to do is just a couple clicks above. I mean, the this business is not um designed to nurture that, you know, but that's life. Like it's not, it doesn't stop existing. It just we just pretend it doesn't exist. And so um, so yes, I saw build building a rapport with crew, especially if you're filming in a like say a particular culture, like I have filmed overseas, and there's just every town has a different vibe. And um, like like one thing in filming in South Africa, South Africa is I think there's a lot of pressure for those crews to perform and meet Hollywood standards, you know what I mean? Because they're on the other side of the world from Hollywood. And so it's the sooner you can build rapport and trust with them, the more likely they are to come to you when they have a problem and get ahead of it. So um, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:56

Uh just real quick, um, I have a question, but I do want to circle back to the fact that I also appreciate a good apology when you're working in this business. And it's not like you want to be apologized to, but it's just so refreshing. No excuses. Someone just said, I'm sorry, I screwed up, and you move on, and you're like, wow, people have sort of forgotten the art of the apology in a weird way, and how valuable that is to trusting somebody and moving on and going, everyone makes mistakes, we all do. Uh, you have such an interesting history that I want to talk about. We've had showrunners, you know, a number of showrunners on the show who talk about there is no training to be a showrunner. I mean, we have a showrunner training program literally, but it's a few days, right? You you go from being a writer to being in control of hundreds of millions of dollars and hundreds of people, and you don't fully understand what the people in other departments always do when you get to that position because you've been isolated in your writer's room. If you're lucky, you've gone to set, but many some haven't. So they've gone straight into managing all these different departments and having to answer all these questions. But you came up to the DGA side, you came up as a second unit director of first AD. You've spent presumably a lot of time on set, a lot of time seeing what other people have done and understanding what the crew does on a very sort of integral uh, you know, uh basis. Does did that help you when you eventually became a show owner? Because you don't didn't have the traditional route. You you you sold a show, you created a show, that show got made. Then you're almost at the top, you know, you know, maybe number two. And now then then the next show, you're now running the show after a year. So that was a quick trial by fire, yet you had all these other backgrounds to lean on as a leader. So could you talk a little bit about that, about your history, about about the challenges you faced as an early show owner, but also maybe some of the skills you were able to lean on.

SPEAKER_02 8:39

Yeah, it saved my ass. Um, it weirdly, it didn't help sell anything because nobody, you know, when you're sitting across the desk from executives, you know, there's no sense, you know, they don't care. I don't think anybody knew that I'd had a whole other career as an assistant director. And to clarify, I did it was not, I was not in the DGA. I was not that good. Um, I don't know if you know that there's actually um there's a DGA trainee program, and they're those people are cut from a different cloth. I actually went in to took the DGA test um because I was non-union and like did not even make the first round of cuts. So, but I was so I was assistant director, but on non-union shoots, which is um um maybe even a better testing ground in that sense because it's more like the Wild West, um, for good and for bad, um, in the indie film world. Um, but but but yes, you know, you're exactly correct. Once the show was sold, then all of a sudden, you know, nobody expressed this to me, but it was very clear all of a sudden, then the studio was very grateful for my experience. Because on my first show, the one that I created and sold, that was shot down in South Africa. So I, you know, was sent to the other side of the world where, you know, and so they didn't have as much control over me and what was going on there. And um, and that is where all of my experience as uh an assistant director and the second assistant director in the indie film world came were were essential. And I think about that a lot. I don't I don't know how somebody who um came up the traditional way makes that jump to a showrunner. Um I I I can't I wouldn't know how to do it that way. So um, so yeah, so so being able to, I understood what departments did. I kind of understood, and do not claim that I could do any of their jobs, but it's close, but I had at least a better sense than say the average person of, oh, this will take longer. Yes, like when they're coming to me and saying they need this much time to do something, like I know it takes that much time, you know what I mean? So um um uh it just helped me understand the the inner workings of that a lot. So it was it was essential. I would have, I would have just so crashed and burned if I didn't have that experience. So it wasn't useful at all in terms of selling anything. And then as soon as that ticked over, it was it was foundational.

SPEAKER_03 11:01

Thank you for that. That got that great answer. And uh, this is kind of just my follow-up on this, basically a variation on this theme. When you were working on the cruise side, was it did you always have a dream of being a writer and you were using this opportunity to to kind of hone that skill? Or was it, or were you unhappy-ish on the cruise side and you wanted to make a change? Was it accidental? Like, well, I want to let's talk to me about that that moment of transfer when you are walking away from by the way, probably a somewhat steadier paycheck too, to this other thing, which is now writing.

SPEAKER_02 11:34

Yeah. I uh well, I was a I was a moron. It was really young, I was really young. I and so uh right out of college, I had a chance to work on a movie. I came down here like everybody else. I'm gonna direct. And and um, so I had a chance to work on this really, really sketch independent western shot in Santa Clarita. Um, and I walked on set, and I mean there was not enough crew, nobody was really getting paid anything. I think I worked for free for two weeks straight, like literally 14 days straight. Um and um and walked onto set, and the DP was like, Oh, good, I have some help, grab me a C stand. And I said, What's a C stand? Like I had no idea, like that was just thrown into it. And I very luckily kind of had, I just got the ebb and flow of a film set. You know what I mean? I just understood first you rehearse, then actors go away, then comes in second team, and then you tweak the lighting, and then they while the first team's getting into makeup, I just thankfully clicked with that um that flow of a film set. And the ADs noticed and kind of brought me into the fold because they were like, oh, the one person on this little independent film that has a knack for it, you know, because there were no resources. I was like, I was fetching lunch, I was doing walkies, I was up on ladders screwing in lights. I uh, you know, I mean, it was one of those. Um and uh and then that, and so I just fell in with that assistant directing team and then just started working my way up as a you know, a key set PA. I would my first like real movie, quote unquote, was The Battle of Shaker Heights, which was the second or third Project Greenlight movie. So, like, fresh out of college, like my first job was holding an umbrella over Shia LaBeouf, you know, so his makeup did run, sitting there going, like, I have a college degree, he doesn't. What's wrong with this picture? Um and uh and I remember very, I mean, literally, I remember saying to somebody, this is so cool. I'm gonna become an assistant director, which is the next thing to being a director. I thought that's what it was. I thought that's what an assistant director was. It was like a path to directing. Not that assistant director can't be a director, but anybody listening that doesn't know, like those are it's called assistant director, but they're very different jobs. And so assistant directors can hop to directing the same way a script coordinator can, or sorry, a script supervisor and or a DP or actors or anybody else. It's there's no like direct path to directing or anything like that. It's just you just kind of hop to it from another career path. Um, and I was just too dumb to know that I didn't know how the business worked. So I just um that's sorry, what was your question? That's just how I got onto that trajectory. So the whole the whole time I thought I was, oh, gonna write and direct. So I'm trying to write on the side. And I mean, in the indie film world, I mean, it is you are working, I think the longest day I ever pulled was 23 hours. Um, after which I drove, after which I drove home from Santa Clarita to Simi Valley and fell asleep on the highway in the right lane and woke up in the left lane, um, thank God, before I hit anything. So, like, that's how rough and tumble and hard and crazy that world is. And that, and you're working days that long for a set fee, 50, 75, 100 if you're doing really well. I remember when I got bumped at 200 a day and it was like, oh my God, I'm gonna be, I'm a king now, you know. Like it's it's a it's a tough gig. So you're not, you have no time to write. And then when your gig is over, you're drained emotionally, spiritually, and physically in a way that's hard to describe. And then you have to start hunting for the next job. And so, like, I did six or seven years where I don't think I wrote. I mean, I did, I kept that was the goal, and I just got caught up in trying to make a living. Thank God I was learning things that would come into play later and be helpful later. But I did not. I didn't, I didn't, I mean, I said I was a writer, I was trying, I was picking away at these crappy little horror scripts that were terrible. But writing is a whole other craft that you have to spend time with. Like ideas, anybody can have ideas, but learning to mold those ideas and and structure them and all of that, that's the craft that takes work, that's building muscles. So if you're spending so much time doing one thing, you're not doing the other thing. So, in that regard, no, I like I wanted to be a writer, but I don't think I wrote anything for half a decade at least, other than like ramblings in my stupid journal at 20 some years old.

SPEAKER_00 16:02

So that's a that's a great question. It's interesting about the trajectory and how you can get lost in just trying to make a living, particularly in this town. Um, although the whole time you were saying that answer, I was thinking, what is a C stand?

SPEAKER_02 16:17

It's um whoever invented them, I think probably is retired. Um, I think it was a uh grip who uh uh who invented them. How do I describe them? It's kind of like Tinker Toys. Um, only I don't know if you know what those are, uh, only made out of metal. And it's just it folds up into kind of an L shape, but then the base opens up into like a tripod to steady it. And then it's made of all of these individual bars systems that fold into each other and slide into each other. And you could basically lock it into almost any position to hold anything like in front of a light to create shadows, or to hold gels in front of lights to change the color of the light, uh, and I've or to hold up um duvetine, which is this thick black material that they use to black out windows or to create little tents to so um so it's kind of this tool, a multi-use tool. Um, they're they're kind of amazing.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Yeah, that's certainly no one, no wonder the director needed it. Um yeah. So because you were on set, you saw stuff. Um, I'm interested in this leadership point, and we talked a bit about it at the beginning. Um, in terms of you, one of the big lessons that you learned was around sort of honesty and giving people space and so on. But going through it all, you know, when I I remember when I was starting work, my dad said to me, you know, you learn a lot from good bosses, you'll learn more from bad bosses. Remember it all so that when you're in charge, you're using the right stuff. Yeah, presumably, you see some of the worst behaviors of human beings on those sorts of sets where people are working 23 hour days and probably being mean to the junior staff, which was you at some of those stages, but there will also have been kindnesses shown and so on. So, what did you accumulate from that? What sorts of lessons did you learn that when you became a leader meant that you would, you know, uh never shout at somebody or never ask somebody to bring you lunch when they've been working for 24 hour days? All that sort of stuff, those sorts of interactions that made you a better showrunner later.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

Um, other than I'm trying to think of specific examples other than the ethos. So, like you learn pretty quickly pushing a crew to the max does not make anything better and endangers them. And also there's a built-in, unless I guess you're a monster, a built-in empathy because I've I've been there. I've you know stayed late to roll up cables with the crew, you know what I mean, when all the producers and everybody went home after abusing them all day and their paychecks were late, and we were dumped in the desert for six hours without water and told they'd be right back with water for us, and you know, all of those kind of horror stories that happen on um shady film productions, um, kind of on the fringes of the legitimate business to a certain degree. And um, and so so yeah, definitely build empathy. And it was there's that what's that is that company called Valve that did Portal, those video game portal? I think it's Valve. They're kind of known for this, but like I think that guy who created that company has a similar story where he just had this really shitty job when he was a teenager and went, nobody should live like this. I'm gonna make it my goal to build a company that doesn't function that way and functions the opposite way. So it wasn't that much of a battle cry for me or like a life goal, but it it to you know to create productions that were you know the crew is treated better. But that but when the time came, yeah, absolutely. Like there was no no no desire. And I'd also learned that like shit gets done, like like screaming and yelling at people, not to say I ever lie, I think I I think I lost my temper like like once on blood drive on the crew, where I remember, and it wasn't directed at anybody, any one person. I was just kind of like just kind of lost it for a second. But like that was one time in like six months of shooting, you know, because it was like it's not it'll always get done. And if it doesn't, if everyone is happy and as well rested as possible, because I mean filming is hard no matter how comfortable you try and make it, it's a brute, it's a crew man, dude. Crew life is tough. And so, like, if everybody is happy and has had sleep, they're gonna come up with better ideas. So it's not even at a certain point, it's not even about selflessness and like empathy of people, it's just like good business. Like, why I just I've never I just never understood why people would treat other people that way, intentionally at least. I mean, shit happens accidentally. So that I don't know, it was just a never part, yeah, it was just ingrained in me. Um, and it keeps it keeps for me at least, it kept me from going off the rails. Because when you do step into showrunner, you go from nobody as a writer, you spend so much time with nobody giving a shit about what you're saying. You work and work and work on a script and say, Do you like it? And somebody at best, somebody says yes, and they'll get back to you. And then it, you know, it's so hard to get anything made. So when you switch to showrunner and you walk on the set, and all of a sudden a hundred people or more are looking at you, what do you want? Tell me about you know what I mean. I it's it's um uh it's intoxicating, it's addicting, it's amazing. And so I I I I I can see how people could very easily go off the rails in that regard. Um, you'd have to talk to crew that I've worked with. I don't think I've treated anybody that way, but but maybe you should interview them. I'm probably a little biased.

SPEAKER_03 21:44

Okay, I I want to get a bit more granular because I'm I'm actually this is kind of fascinating to me, and you've had such an interesting journey into the showrunner, into putting on that showrunner hat. So I want to take us to the day, if you remember, that season two of the of The Purge. Okay, you have you are now the showrunner. uh uh the studio someone has designated you showrunner of this show and uh co-showrunner and you're walking to your office the the very first day as a showrunner what's what's going through your head what's changed inside of you what fears do you have what excitement do you have you new parking spot presumably new office presumably I don't know but like walk us through that moment it was um made easier by the fact that even though I wasn't the showrunner on Blood Drive I kind of I had some of those responsibilities just because of the geography the showrunner who was amazing was on the other side of the world so there were just certain things on set I had to do so that helped but it was daunting it was um an intense sense of like um put your money where your mouth is it's like I've been working for this for a long time under under the idea that when I got there I could do it and now you're out of excuses like when people tell you no as painful and as horrible as that is you at least have this excuse in your back pocket of like well they're loss because I would have been amazing.

SPEAKER_02 23:14

Well that you're out of that excuse you don't have any rope left so it was yeah so it's kind of um it's like being on a roller coaster it's that you get the you get those butterflies like anything else. I was in a good position where I was co-show running with Crystal Ziv, Crystal Houghton Ziv, who uh so having we'd only known each other for like two weeks though just because of it it was just an interesting situation. So but we at least had each other to kind of look at each other and go like I'm gonna freak out. Let's go in the other room and figure out how to handle this. But I don't know but it was it was exciting and there was also no time how things went down is that we kind of threw out a month of work and then we had two weeks to come up with a new season. And so we had no there was no time. I mean it was just that helps a lot dude with it like not helps I mean it's a horrible feeling but when the pressure's on you don't have time to slow down and so it's not that you're scared you just there's no time to deal with the fright you just kind of have to do it. So we had to come up with um a new season in two weeks and pitch it to Blumhouse, UCP and Amazon. So they were the second window buyer yeah so it was nuts.

SPEAKER_03 24:23

Um I want to talk about the creative pressure of that I I'm gonna jump away from my other question and ask about coming up with a season in two weeks and having to pitch it because it might be interesting to the people that are listening. But I do want to clarify because you know I that this language is what this is the world I live in as well. But just to clarify for the people listening when you become a showrunner it's it's in a way it's a stutter step because the first few weeks to months you're actually just showrunning your writers and then all of a sudden production starts and now you're showrunning everybody. You now you're in charge of the whole thing. So in many ways it's like a two-step management process where you have this group of people and then you have this much larger group of people and it seems like you came into a situation that was trial by fire. You had to come up with something that was working for the studio network and everybody involved and you had you you had to prove yourself in those two weeks right you had to say give them enough story that they then had faith in you guys to continue all of this.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

Talk about that pressure we got it was a lot we we got lucky because there the the room had already started and so it wasn't just Crystal and I in a room we had that we still had that room to break all of that and I I also was lucky because four of those writers I had worked with previously so I had a rapport and I knew what they were capable of. And I trusted you know what I mean like this is what you know when you know somebody has your back it just kind of bolsters you um man I I don't know how to describe it other than you just you just kind of have to trust your gut more because when you're and it's it it's no different than any other writer's room where it's like the train is coming and you're laying track. And so you can't slow down. So at a certain point if a story point works especially in the early stages when you're you're not breaking a lot of individual moments right occasionally you do if you get a really kind of cool fun idea that you just have to say you got it you got to just kind of zoom in for a second and go, let me tell you about this little moment that'll happen. But you can't do that the whole time or else it's just word salad. It's just like nonsense. You kind of have to kind of figure out what the larger beats are. And so at that stage it's pretty easy to kind of just go, okay, that works. We got to move on to the next thing like the train won't crash when it gets to this point. Is that good enough? Yes move on to the next thing so you kind of just have to trust that once you get to the end of that and you get it approved that when you then go back to then zoom in and go, okay, we said that this guy discovers this in the first part of the season and then that makes him behave this way in the middle part of the season that you're going to be able to connect those dots in a satisfactory way that's like dramatically fulfilling. And it's just like anything it's just like revising your own script on your own when you start with an outline you know what I mean like you may you may get in there and find it doesn't work but you kind of can't let you just can't let that stop you because uh just because the train's coming so I don't know it's just fear that's the best I don't know if that's a better shorter answer. I should have just said that you just you're scared so you just do it.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

So talking of fear obviously there's there's different types of fear in terms of specifically you know trying to rush something and still make it good. But more general fear I'm I'm afraid I'm going back to leadership in a more general sense. Um when you are in charge so not necessarily this specific period but just generally you've got your show you're running it what sort of person are you are you a uh sort of imposter syndrome person are you sort of outwardly quite powerful then sort of you go into the bathroom and second guess everything you've just done like how do you maintain your leadership and how do you think about your leadership and and how much do you worry about your ability to lead I bottle up all the worry and I keep it to myself um and try not to let it show.

SPEAKER_02 28:35

At a certain point on a production you kind of meet people you can trust or if you have a friend and I'll kind of vent to them. But outwardly I tend to well one thing I've had to learn is to actually get a little bit more authoritative because my first instinct is to be very chummy and to make everybody at ease. And that's something I think is well I don't know people have been in a lot of different writers rooms and I know like comedy rooms are notoriously cutthroat or at least that's the that's what I've been told I've never been in one but the I really believe especially a writer's role needs to be people need to feel safe. If they don't feel safe when are they gonna like pitch that idea that they think is a terrible idea and are nervous to pitch and it ends up being the one thing that unlocks everything. You know I I we had going to purge season two the first scene of the entire season was pitched by our script coordinator and it's fucking gangbusters and it was um if you know anything about it down the air you can watch it I'm not spoiling anything but if you know the purge there's this very um famous aspect of the purge which is um where the announcement comes in the commencement of the annual purge and then there's this automated voice you know this voice like a like a Siri or an Alexa this you know very recognizable voice like has a script that it reads and that's in every movie it's in it was in season one it's like it's a it's an at it's a fan thing. It's like you gotta have that in a purge movie. And he pitched like well what if we do like a little uh flashback where you see the woman get hired who had to do that voiceover and she's like I thought I was here for like a phone commercial or something like why am I reading all of these words about like murdering people and stuff and there was just silence in the room and and we were like dude fuck it Bobby that's the best idea you know the you know James DeMonico was head over heels for it like we pushed it to the studio you know if he hadn't felt safe to say that you know what I mean like because there I and I I don't know like like then we wouldn't have had that great idea. And so how many ideas are there that get squandered out of fear or botched or whatever. And I also am a firm believer that all of those bad ideas that get thrown out in a writer's room have to be thrown out because then they sit around in the back of your head and then three months later it turns into a good idea in a different context or you add a couple of Voltron, a couple of other ideas onto it to make it good. So you have you have to you have to be free. It's a trust thing it's like um I don't know it's like a it's like a relationship or anything else. If you're not communicating and can't trust each other, there's no magic. So like writer's room I'm I've I'm very much pro that and there are and I but I've had to learn over time um that there are areas that you need to crack down on.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

You know what I mean when 20 minutes in somebody's still pushing back on an I an idea when everybody else likes it it's time to ask that person to be quiet you know so there are times where you kind of have to crack the whip but not you don't have to do it in a mean way you know it's interesting I really like that anecdote um particularly because you know giving a voice it's easy to say you know we make sure everyone in the room has a voice but actually to have everyone in the room having a voice and then their idea to be such an obviously great idea that made it in is fantastic. I want to ask a question about diversity in a way linked to that we we when we have people on the show I think we've mostly asked the diversity question to to women and people of colour because either they brought it up or we brought it up. But I'm not I'm not sure we've done it very often the other way around. So here obviously script coordinator giving them a voice as it were is a form of diversity but where where are you on not are you pro or against um diversity that's probably not the right question to ask but it's more about how does diversity for you play out in terms of your leadership and also how much has it changed from when you started to now oh my God it's huge.

SPEAKER_02 32:52

I mean just the I just in my mind's eye I'm looking around the Blood Drive writers room versus the purge writers room and it was you know a step towards diverse um uh just because of the culture shift the culture has changed a lot in terms of the art of it philosophically I like to me I'm I'm gonna say this like I know anything about sports I but like it it makes sense to me to moneyball a um uh a writer's room you know I like to have people with different skill sets um and I like to have people that bring different points of view to everything and so so philosophically do diverse you know I mean you you're using capital D diversity. So like yeah so that all of that makes sense and has always made sense. You know there's the larger political question around it and all of that stuff. But it's it's just just talking purely about the art yeah to me the more different voices you can have in the room they're gonna speak to different experiences whether those be based in racial identity or gender identity or just the town that they lived in or you know what I mean? Like like all of that stuff is is important. And then it's important that everybody kind of gets along you know as well. So it's like I guess you when you're thinking about forming a team that's an aspect of it as well. But yeah I don't know I guess what is it what's your question yeah I'm pro I'm pro diversity is that with um but no but speaking of it purely from the art it makes it makes it makes so it makes so much sense and and I will listen like I remember I I met I hinted to it in my previous answer but there was a moment where we kind of did like a full half hour because there was one younger writer um who had a point of view and was like really not bothered morally or ethically just on a story point was like I don't buy this I don't like it. And we kind of sat back and said okay and we took a half hour which feels like an eternity in a writer's room you know what I mean where you're like you know when you're feeling this pressure of a deadline coming up I guess depending on where you are on breaking the story at the beginning you feel like you have all the time in the world. And um and we we heard her out we heard her out for like a half an hour and then we kind of put it to the room and talked it through and we decided not to go or to go ahead with it or whatever the answer was. But it it at a certain point I'm like if you're gonna have people in the room why wouldn't you listen to them just like I've never understood and everybody has their own way I'm not crapping on anybody's way of doing it. But for me personally why like why would you hire writers and then not let them write a script I've never understood that. If you don't want somebody's voice to be in the product you might as well just kind of like hire a stranger that has nothing to do with it to just bounce ideas off of that's not why I have writers in the room we do I do we do bounce ideas off of each other and that's incredible but then I want them to bring their secret sauce to the project and yet certain projects are different. Like Blood Drive each episode was a different genre. That was the gimmick on the purge every you know it's a it's a much more serialized all the same tone all the same vibe. So the purge needed kind of more unification. So like Crystal and I would always do the final pass of the script I did that anyway on Blood Drive but like we you know and we might you know have final say and change some things and James DeMonico would have a say on everything because he created the franchise and um so there did need to be so I think probably we ground the edges off of individual voices for the purge but that's what it needed to be um but they still people got their personal stories in um and we made sure of it on the purge. So yeah no I think that's essential if you're I don't know sorry now I'm going on a rant but it's like yeah I've never understood that I've never understood why you wouldn't why why you would hire a staff to muzzle them you know it's it's just not how I go. Am I going to piss somebody off for saying that I don't I'm not I probably watch so many I love so many shows that it probably are run that way you know and so who am I to say anything? I just that's my own personal take on it.

SPEAKER_03 36:59

No I I think there's so essential is the multiplicity the multi the the polyphony of voices tells a sort of more harmonic story in many ways. It gets more colorful it's more it's more dynamic it's responsible for the golden age of television getting even better you know just this just this move has been really positive. So I I I'm gonna as this is a term we used recently fierce agreement with uh something that that you that you're saying as well um I have a question though about and then we're gonna have to lead into our final question but just this is a question about lines and about relationships. You said you had four friends on the verge before you became the showrunner and then you're the showrunner and does it get lonely because those relationships can't continue in the same way necessarily because you're now the boss and you are the one responsible for telling them if they're coming back or not the next year. And if you're too chummy with them it's you know there's the you it it become it gets really challenging I would imagine when you make that transition from peer to boss. Is that true?

SPEAKER_02 38:05

Interesting um well the context of that is no one one had just been a friend one one I had not in that capacity had not worked with no I take it back all of them I had worked with in some capacity or I'd met them through a work environment so that made it a little easier um one of one of them in a roundabout way was responsible for giving me a career so I had gone from like he he had been an executive um and so I who had was responsible for getting blood drive made he then like ran the football through that gauntlet and actually saved it from getting killed before it was bought. And so so that was that was an interesting one where it was like oh I used to get notes from you now you switch to writing and um and that you know and but that I don't know again that's where it comes back to communication. That's where it comes back to being honest and and and and gently saying things but I never I don't know I never personally ran into anything that was an issue you know um and if it was you have the friendship there so that when you gotta like step into their office, you know what I mean? It's not you know they're not a stranger and being like look you're you're my pal and you you know you know I care about you but I just saw this and that probably shouldn't happen. I I don't remember any specific instance of that being an issue which just comes down to hiring good people or as best you can you know what I mean that have that are there to work and if they have egos as everybody does just kind of have worked hard on tempering that and their reactions and are and are willing to listen. So um but that is interesting I hadn't really thought about it that way until you asked it I had never really thought about it that way because I I I knew you know I was just we were all there we were all there to work. But yeah I did I did kind of have like the the power dynamic at least in one relationship was completely reversed to a certain degree.

SPEAKER_03 40:03

So um but no hey that that went fine you know thank you I'm always that's kind of always an interesting thing for me to listen to as these these transitions happen. I've seen a lot of show owners transition and it's just a kind of a curiosity about how people change when they get into those moments of power. But uh that leads us unfortunately all of this leads us to our very final question the question that we ask uh everyone on all of our podcasts which is if you have one piece of advice that you would give in this case an aspiring writer uh what would it be who wants to enter this business?

SPEAKER_02 40:37

Yeah who wants to um it took me a long time to learn this um and it kind of it's not probably justn't just pertain to writers but it it did there's a thing when you're meeting people when you're starting out as a as a writer whether you're pitching something right or you're getting notes on something um where like let's say you're you're pitching somebody or you're in a a meeting to be staffed or something the dynamic is very clear. That person has something that you desperately want from them right you want a career you want money you want them to make your thing and what I try and do and I wish I'd learned this earlier in life was to think about that meeting as that every everybody wants their life easier. Everybody has something that they want that person wants something from you if you can figure out what that is or what they need and try and think about that meeting as a way to try and give that to them rather than you got to do a a dog and dog and pony show to like make them like you to give you money or whatever it is, it's gonna go much better. And and how and how that can manifest is whatever sometimes asking questions um uh that can manifest in just being direct about what it is that they want and what they're looking for. In the case of like uh taking notes from people is it's it's not getting mad. It's not you know putting your ego aside and just kind of going like they're just trying to make the show better, right? They have all this pressure from their bosses and have to give these notes. And I have just found that reframing my thinking about those types of interactions um is has been enormously helpful because if you get into a pattern of thinking I've got to just I got to hit a bullseye or just say and do the right thing to make make somebody uh let me do what I want that I don't know that I think that that just leads to just like an unhealthy perspective on it. And it can also lead to a lot of bitterness because you get so much rejection you know if you get into this mindset of like oh if I had just done one other thing or whatever it doesn't work that way. It just does it. So just get into the mindset of thinking with everybody that you meet, how can I help them? And because dude then the answer is that then they will love you for that you know because everybody wants somebody to help them and support them. And so it then then then the reverse of that is that then then probably you're more likely to get what you want you know so I don't know is that too vague of an answer I don't know if that's kind of too esoteric but no no this is a great answer.

SPEAKER_00 43:01

It's interesting there's uh I was having a discussion with someone the other day who leads a very big team and he was saying he has weekly catch-ups with all of his direct reports and the meetings are called how can I help you meetings not like how am I in charge of you they are literally called how how can I help you now obviously you use them how you use them but a big part of it is how can I help you be better at your job. So I think it's I think it's a a great piece of advice that that people should uh should listen to so look James thank you very much for coming on I think one of the I think big takeaways from me is around that type of leadership. I think it works very well and I know one of the big takeaways from Noah is that he should feel comfortable saying I'm out of my depth podcasting and I should be honest about that with other people.

SPEAKER_03 43:45

But thank you very much for being part of our podcast oh dude thanks you guys thank you so much and thank you for uh being patient with me Noah I was I was nervous to come on man but he was like take your time think about it but um but this has been great very gentle pusher just gently keep on emailing you until you come on thank you Dames uh awesome you guys and that's a wrap on this episode of Screaming into the Hollywood Abyss as always we want to thank James Launch for the amazing theme music do you before we sort of thank our wives and stuff do you think anyone actually listens this far or do they stop when the music comes back in I think they normally stop after you mention your second and third podcast that'd be my guess I haven't mentioned them yet though have I if you do want to reach out with us to us for criticisms, complaints or praise, uh you can either reach out to us through the website or I am at NEVslin on Twitter and Dan, do you have an account?

SPEAKER_00 44:44

Not that anyone really cares about so if you've got complaints about the show go to NEVslin and feel free to air those. If you have praise or you want to pay us in some way for something come to at Dan Rutstein and have a great day